what should be the role of Hindu Identity?

What should be the role of Hindu Identity?

Should Hindu identity be the one which replaces or suppresses all other jathi and regional identity?

or Should Hindu identity be a base on which all other regional and jathi identities flourish and grow?

Most urban hindus and a large section of hindutvavadis are dreaming for a hindu unity where people discard all existing jathi identities and identify as hindus first.   These people doesnt understand that this will only lead to homogenisation of our society rather than unity.

Some section of people, want all people to put hindu identity before their jathi identity.  They want hindu identity to be top cover for all other identities.

What i am demanding is that every jathi be seen as a branch of the larger tree, and let Hindu identity be the fertile based in which all these regional identities thrive.  Which means, we all will identify ourselves based on our jathi, and be united at sub-conscious level through the hindu identity. Here, all other identities are allowed to get prominance and hindu identity as fertilse base for them to grow.

This is what happening today.  Most of the jathis identify themselves as hindus, but want their jathi identity to be retained.  Whereas the urban folks want these jathi identities to be destroyed.   Thus there is a hostility b/w these two different sections of our society.  Its time that we have to end this conflict and constitutionally recognise jathi as part of our hindu society.

I prepared this chart in one of the debate i participated recently, .  Hope, it conveys my message.

Role of Hindu Identity

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123 Responses to what should be the role of Hindu Identity?

  1. Jaathi is blamed as an evil, mainly due to the misunderstanding that there exists an Upper Jaathi & a Lower Jaathi. If this basic mis-understanding is removed, Jaathi will regain it’s glory.
    Removing Jaathi identity of a person is like disconnecting his future generation from his ancestral roots.
    In such a world where only geographical divisions determine the identity of a person & all are the same with some broader Hindu or Christian or Muslim identity only, I suggest humans could be identified with their Unique ID card (AADHAR type) viz. H1000001, H1000002, C200001, C200002.
    Every family tree has something unique & this should be the identity of the generations of the family tree. A person disconnected from his ancestral roots is available for manipulation & he can become a Christian, Muslim, Communist, Athiest, Socialist, Activist etc.
    Yes, broader Hindu identity will definitely help in defending / protecting the nation against aggressors, easy business transactions amongst all Jaathi’s, developing common infrastructure etc.

  2. I think wise people will recommend everyone excel with his own individual character, identity, family practices, rituals, habits.
    If all are to be only identified as a Hindu with no further unique identities, then what is the need even for the broader Hindu, Christian or Muslim identities also. Abolish all of them & become UID numbers & some computer algorithm like creating passwords will deliver your names at your address when a child is born.

  3. What would be your definition of “Hindu”?

    • senthil says:

      I am not going in to the details of what “Hindu” means.. bcoz it will divert the discussion here..

      my question here is the role of Hindu Identity.. will it destroy or suppress our existing traditional identities or does it support them ?

      • Our, i.e Hindu identity can be described figuratively like the biological classification of life. Jathi which can be likened to ‘species’ in biology forms a part of Varna, which is like a ‘genus’. Varna in turn derives its legitimacy from Sanathana Dharma (“Hinduism”) which is like ‘family’ in the biological classification.
        Sanathana Dharma – Hinduism (Family) > Varna (Genus) > Jathi (Species). This is only a metaphorical example and not to be taken literally.
        Sanathana Dharma (Hinduism) forms the core of our identity and is like the trunk and roots of the tree. Varnas and jathis form the big and smaller branches respectively. One cannot cut off all the branches and still claim the residue to be a viable tree. Similarly no branch could exist without the trunk and roots! A solid trunk with deep roots and numerous branches full of leaves is what makes a tree strong and healthy.
        A tree can have any number of branches but all these branches are supported by a single trunk only. Likewise Hinduism can support any number of jathis which in turn derive legitimacy and sustenance from the trunk called Sanathana Dharma.
        This system – Sanathana Dharma / Hinduism – Varna – Jathi arose spontaneously in what can be called an ‘ecologically rational’ manner. Our urban conglomerations are a classical example of ‘constructivist rationality’ i.e constructed by humans. Urban dwellers living in an artificial (constructivist) setup think that since they created these cities and its institutions (corporates), it should also be possible for them to alter society at will to satisfy their needs and desires. This meddlesome itch of the urbanites to tinker with a system which has evolved over thousands of years without fully understanding it is the root cause of the conflict between the so called ‘modernists‘ who want to abolish the jathi and the ‘traditionals’ who wish to retain their individual jathi identity.

  4. Sadda says:

    I broadly agree with menthol. i do not agree at all that Hindutva puts forcibly all in one bucket. It strongly emphasizes a common overarching sense of belonging like a big tree or even a green house as Senthil has tried to capture.

  5. Sachin says:

    Very much meaningful…… People just has to understand it

  6. vyas says:

    Senthil – This article lacks detail. You should add more information to discuss about various ongoing issues like religious conversion, uniform civil code, caste/religion/gender based reservation etc. Hindu or Hindutva is not bad per se. It’s the politicization that’s the problem. When your enemies organize themselves based on religion and attack you, you have no other option but to find out a common identity for yourself and defend them. This is how the concept of Hindutva was formed. Until the advent of Abrahamic religions into the country, the native Indians identified themselves based on their jaathi and/or native place only. It was only after the advent of Islam/Christianity that religious identity became prominent. With the advent of urbanization people migrated away from their native towns and were forced with live in unified communities and take up unified education system. This situation led to the decay of jaathis and the pluralism thereof. This is no fault of Hindutva. As I always mentioned before, Hindutva is a necessary evil to fight the West and the Abrahamic religions. At the same time, another movement should sprout within Hindutva to safeguard it from becoming singular. We need to both aspects at the moment. Simply branding Hindutva as bad/evil and ignoring it is not going to be of any help to us.

    • senthil says:

      @vyas,

      This article is about role of Hindu Identity w.r.t native identities.. so lets not drag other issues in to this debate..

      What ever may be the definition of Hindu Identity, my basic question is how should that identity be used?

      The urbanisation you described is true.. but my stance is that this urbanisation is a colonial system forced upon our country.. so far only 40 % of people moved to urban centers.. atleast at this stage, we should stop this bloody urbanisation.. what i am seeing is people who migrated to urban centers accepting it as de-facto and wanting to change whole of bharath in to similar urban centers.. this leads to destruction of dharma and dharmic setups..

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – All the issues I mentioned are completely interlinked to the Hindu identity, which is why I asked you to focus on it. In a politically united India, every identity will be politicized, may it be jaathi or religion or language. An identity is now being used as a tool to demand your fundamental rights thereby politicizing it. This will eventually lead to exploitation and that’s exactly what’s happening right now. There is an acute need to unite India right now. We are only geographically and politically united. Both are fragile unifications and are bound to break any time. This is where Hindu/Hindutva unity tries to fill the gap but unfortunately due to it’s political nature it’s beginning to fail. At the same time one must understand that it’s Hindutva that’s more inclusive than any other identity. Hindutva is purely geographic in nature and includes in itself almost every other identity unlike other religious and linguistic identities. The only problem I see with Hindutva (apart from being political) is that lately it’s trying to cross the boundaries of being just a framework to becoming a singular manifestable ideology. In my opinion Hindutva should take the route of Varnashrama to succeed. It should continue to be a framework and should never ever try to manifest itself which will be disastrous. The biggest challenge in front of us in uniting India is not with Hindutva ideology but with other religious and linguistic ideologies. Unless we curb them, there is no way to keep India united. They are simply not going to (or allowed to) come out of their ideologies. The efforts to unite India is nothing new and has been going on for millenniums at various times in the history. It’s high time that we need to find out a common protocol using which one can unite India but still be as pluralistic as possible.

        On your concerns about urbanization, it’s definitely valid but at the same time, it’s purely a policy level issue. Urbanization existed even in the past (even a 1000 years ago) but was completely isolated and was never an ideology per se. A good leadership in the future will curb urbanization from penetrating into villages and will keep it only on an as needed basis.

        • senthil says:

          @vyas,

          Every issue you mentioned is interlinked.. that’s not the point.. what i am asking is NOT to drag them to discussion here.. we will deal that separately..

          i want you to answer on how do you want hindu identity to be used.. that decides the approach we are going to take on the issues you mentioned..

          regarding urbanisation, you are doing the same mistake as every other urban hindus are doing.. the current westernised urban centers are NOT same as the Nagaras of our dharmic civilization..

          Metros were creation of colonial forces, and its design and purpose is entirely different.. whereas our Nagaras were based on sustainability and harmony with nature..

          In short, current urban metros are Economic BROTHELS and Concrete SLUMS.. whereas our Nagaras are well designed well built settlements..

          • vyas says:

            //regarding urbanisation, you are doing the same mistake as every other urban hindus are doing.. the current westernised urban centers are NOT same as the Nagaras of our dharmic civilization.. //

            You are getting too granular. I’m only saying that Nagaras were required even in the past. Societies could have thrived with just Graamaas alone, but the need for Nagaras were strongly felt even before a few thousand years ago. The only difference between the old Nagaras and modern cities is purely at the policy level. Modern cities are blueprints for revenue generation and looting. This is what we need to change. A policy level change will de-economize cities to a greater extent. This is all we can do at the moment. You need to come out of the ancient obsession. You simply cannot carbon copy ancient methods at a granular level. At the same time, ancient design patterns were more dharmic, which is exactly what needs to be adopted in modern times.

          • senthil says:

            /** I’m only saying that Nagaras were required even in the past. Societies could have thrived with just Graamaas alone, but the need for Nagaras were strongly felt even before a few thousand years ago.
            **/

            YOu are commenting based on theoritical knowledge.. did you make any real life study of traditional nagaras?

            Nagara is only for temporary staying.. grama is the permanent home.. Nagaras were meant as capital, or trading center.. we can understand the purpose from the name of the place.. For eg, in tamil there are so many words indicating different purpose and characteristics of the place..

            The western urban centers are result of industrialisation, meant for establishing industries and housing workforce of those industries.. it is not same as nagaras..

          • vyas says:

            //Nagara is only for temporary staying.. grama is the permanent home.. Nagaras were meant as capital, or trading center.. we can understand the purpose from the name of the place.. For eg, in tamil there are so many words indicating different purpose and characteristics of the place..//

            You are again stereotyping the entire stuff. Our shastras had separate rules for Gramaas and Nagaraas. Also just because you have so many words doesn’t mean that people always lived that way. Even in English we have so many words in relation with cities and towns but not all of them are reflected in daily life.

          • senthil says:

            /** You are again stereotyping the entire stuff **/

            What is the stereotype here? i had done studies about traditional nagaras , and also had discussion with few people on the same..

            Chanakya’s arthashastra has special section of Nagara design.. did you care to read that? is that same as present day urban centers..

            you are denouncing everything i say because you are living in western universalism and seeing our dharmic system from that view (as some external entity).. you need to understand our nagara design from first hand and thru experiences..

          • vyas says:

            //Chanakya’s arthashastra has special section of Nagara design.. did you care to read that? is that same as present day urban centers..//

            First of all did you read it in the real sense? You are too obsessed with the past systems. I’m never comparing present day urban systems with that of the past Nagaraas. I’m only saying that Nagaraas by themselves are kind of adharmic. We could have sustained lifestyle with just the Graamaas, but we did feel the need for Nagaraas. This is why our shastras maintain separate rules for people living in both places.

  7. Surya Ramachandran says:

    I would say it should be in stages. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa used to give an example. Till a plant grows into a tree a fence is required, otherwise it will be eaten by goats; sheep.. So first requirement is to be safe from goats and sheep (DK, AAP, Islamists, Missionaries).. One more use of necessity of the Hindu identity is for development and being on par with respect to the world in all fields including innovation. Once achieved and people are aware, and the strong trunk is built, the fence can be removed.

    • senthil says:

      @surya,

      /** Till a plant grows into a tree a fence is required, otherwise it will be eaten by goats; sheep
      **/

      1. Jathi is NOT plant, but parts of the large tree..

      2. What if the fence itself eats in to the plants? That’s what happening today. the Hindu Identity is destroying all native identities..

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        1. It was a tree, which became a plant in the last 200 years.
        2. How come of all the things Hindu identity destroys things ? There is government, colonial perception of History, political parties, film industry etc. Hindu identity atleast takes people from the clutches of the last few and it brings some unity.

        Instead why cant you write whether is there higher and lower castes in caste system.. Should there be there or not ?

        • vyas says:

          First define what is “higher” and what is “lower”.

          • senthil says:

            higher and lower is too generic term.. it denotes different kind of meaning based on the way it is used..

            For eg, the colonial narrations of higher and lower are based on power and authority.. whereas our dharmic narration of higher and lower are based on acharams (life code)..

        • senthil says:

          1. The tree did not and cannot become plant.. it is being cut down by alien systems of urban metros.. still the tree has managed to survive.. its enough if we stop this alien entity from further destroying the tree.. that’s what i am calling for..

          2. government and political parties are external forces.. whereas the hindu identity is used at destroying the very identity itself.. people identified themselves based on their jathi, and at macro level used the bharathiya identity.. but the government does not recognise native identity and in turn imposes alien identity.. it destroys the identity base..

          imagine, if some one calls you joseph.. will you accept it? or say if i call you simply as “Man”.. will u accept this as identity..

          the unity that hindu identity brings is an apparent unity.. doesnt have any base.. bcoz it doesnt hv any history or economic or political connectivity..

      • Zed says:

        “2. What if the fence itself eats in to the plants? That’s what happening today. the Hindu Identity is destroying all native identities..”

        What is your basis for saying this? In all my experience, there has been no mention of destroying Jati identity in favor of a hindu identity from those who espouse that cause. Can you name one person/incident to support your assertion above?

        • senthil says:

          /** In all my experience, there has been no mention of destroying Jati identity in favor of a hindu identity from those who espouse that cause
          **/
          It seems you hv not seen the speeches of major hindu intellectuals..

          I will quote two famous personalities..

          1. Subramanya Swamy – he says we should all discard our jathi identity and use only hindu identity..

          2. Rajeev Malhotra – Jathi is outdated and hence no more to be followed..

          3. Most hindutva people spits venom on jathi for being stumbling block to their imagined hindu unity..

          • vyas says:

            Senthil – You are making the same mistake again. Neither Su.Swamy nor Rajiv Malhotra are against Jaathis. They are in the process of creating a political Hindu vote bank and for that they need support from people who are not muslims/christians. In order to achieve that they are recommending people to put their jaathis in the backburner and come forward with the Hindu identity. If they ever achieve their dream Hindu vote bank, I believe they’ll definitely support Jaathis. Rajiv is all for pluralism at every level possible. But I still don’t agree with his point of view on Varna system.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            Subramanya swamy has categorically said in his many speeches that jathi should be destroyed.. and a big applause from the audience.. we can see such mentality among many urban people..

          • vyas says:

            //Subramanya swamy has categorically said in his many speeches that jathi should be destroyed.. //

            Every politician will say it at some point of time. When your own vellala politicians are saying it, why can’t Su.Swamy? Politicians working to gain national positions need votes across jaathi and religious boundaries and they’ll have to say it to win elections. It’s not a fault of them, it’s the fault of the stupid vote bank politics.

          • Zed says:

            Your terminology is wrong. Neither jumping ship swamy nor rajeev espouse hindutva cause.
            Those who did (and do) are folks like Savarkar, Hedgewar etc and neither did claim that in any definitive manner. The idea was that you can keep your Jati but come together under some circumstances.

          • vyas says:

            I think the emergence of Hindutva is a result of extreme sense of insecurity by Hindus against muslims/christians. If not for Hindutva, the entire agenda of Abrahamic religions on evangelizing India would have gone completely un-noticed. The only problem with Hindutva is that it in the name of fighting adharmic religions, it by itself is in danger of becoming adharmic. Hopefully someone will fix it.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            see your contradicting points..

            /**
            >>> Senthil – You are making the same mistake again. Neither Su.Swamy nor Rajiv Malhotra are against Jaathis.

            >>>Every politician will say it at some point of time. When your own vellala politicians are saying it, why can’t Su.Swamy?
            **/

            dont you find the above two points by you ironical? pls dont blindly defend any one..

            /** Politicians working to gain national positions need votes across jaathi and religious boundaries and they’ll have to say it to win elections
            **/

            That’s the core problem i am pointing to.. the politicians are abusing jathi to meet the secular criteria set by westerners and the media controlled by them.. why this dhimmitude?

            atleast politicians have certain reasons for that.. but why are people like you show the same dhimmitude by denying or neglecting jathi?

            if the Hindu Politicians had pro-actively engaged Jathis, they could have captured power long back..

            In this election, it is the jathi based parties which whole heartedly supporting BJP without any worry of Secularism..

            /** It’s not a fault of them, it’s the fault of the stupid vote bank politics. **/

            Its the fault of stupid urban hindus like you.. the hostility shown by you people are the important reason..

          • senthil says:

            /** The idea was that you can keep your Jati but come together under some circumstances. **/

            If you say Jathi is part of hinduism, why should you ask people to keep jathi out? this itself shows your hostile attitude?

            Why not jathi as a whole come for your so called hinduism support?

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            The jathi based parties supporting BJP are PMK and TDP.. SP is still not come in support of BJP.. RJD/JDU are all happily secular.

  8. RVR says:

    Present term of “Hinduism” or “Hindu” is the jargon assigned to us by invaders. Our way of life is “Sanathana Dharma”. Sanathana Dharma accepts all the practices followed in India irrespective of language, caste or other divisions. Sanathana Dharma is not formed by any single individual but has gone through refinement over thousands of years.

    Under Sanathana Dharma were speaking multiple languages in India and within each language group there were several groups evolved. Just for identity of each group, they created “Jathi” as a title which was exploited by British for dividing these groups.

    In the great epic Mahabarath, Lord Krishna was identified as “Yadav” but his cousins “Pandavas” were all Kshatrias. Great Tamil Saivaite Poet Thirugnanasambandar gave life to Chettiar girl at Mylapore from ashes kept in an urn. When the father of the girl requested Sambandhar (suppose to be a brahmin) marry her, he told him that she is like a daughter to him as he has prayed Lord Shiva to give her life again. Another Tamil Poet Sundarar (suppose to be Saivaite Brahmin) married Paravai Nachiar and Sangili Nachiar belonging to other castes with the help of Lord Shiva Himself. It only shows that “Jathi” or “Caste” had no relevance in the past and only the invaders have the same to divide us.

    When Dalai Lama met Chinese ruler Mao, the latter told him that “Relgion is poison”. Personally I tend to agree with this viwe. All the prevailing religions are created by individuals and attempting to divide people where as “Sanathana Dharma” is not a religion and unites people.

    None of the religions of invaders as well as local home grown didn’t make much of impact with Indians and only Sanathana Dharma prevails eternally

    • senthil says:

      /** It only shows that “Jathi” or “Caste” had no relevance in the past and only the invaders have the same to divide us.
      **/

      How long are the urban hindus going to live in this colonial propoganda delusion?

    • Zed says:

      “In the great epic Mahabarath, Lord Krishna was identified as “Yadav” but his cousins “Pandavas” were all Kshatrias. ”

      This is incorrect. The kuru and yadu clans were related. Clearly says so in the great epic you quoted yourself.
      Please re-read it and do not mis-represent such things.

      • senthil says:

        @Zed,
        You are right.. krishna is a kshatriya, but was nurtured by cow herding community (nandagopalar) of vrindavan.. this is the reason he did not marry radha..

        Arjuna and Krishna were cross cousins (if i am right)

  9. Bala says:

    Dear Sir,

    Please write write about your views of the scheduled castes and their status in your envisioned society. Please write about what you feel about inter and intra caste marriages. Also, please write about your opinion on the castes in context with the globalized economy, should people confine themselves to predefined occupations? Or they may take up any occupation as per their merit? Please write about what you think about whether people should practice untouchability? Please write how should people setelled outside India preserve there castes? Please write why you feel castes are still necessary and relevant…

    Thank you.

    • senthil says:

      We need to cover the entire history of bharath from multiple angles to understand all the aspects you want to know.. i am planning for a series of articles in the coming days.. will cover each of the topics..

      btw, there is no scheduled caste in india until the colonial britishers scheduled it..

      /** Also, please write about your opinion on the castes in context with the globalized economy, should people confine themselves to predefined occupations?
      **/

      Before that, can you pls review the status of those who are part of this globalised economy..

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        There is are scheduled castes, in a sense that there are certain castes who live outside the villages..

        I never understood why some cases, are not allowed to enter into the grammam. Having said that I dont understand why only the region where the higher castes live is called the grammam, why cant the whole be called grammam. Both are the same questions in a sense.

        • senthil says:

          Did you care to visit any of the villages directly? If NOT, then you are relying on the information provided by the media which you complain of being controlled by the west..

          i have explained the real scenario of this in the past, but still you are repeating the same media propoganda.. why?

          • Surya says:

            what are you saying, I have been to my village regularly since my childhood, and I have also got got answer from others that, Dalits will not be allowed to enter inside the grammam.. It is only in the last 20 years or so they are allowed. (After automobiles etc came in). There can be exceptions, but even if they are allowed they will never be permitted to take house inside the https://www.facebook.com/. They have other places to stay

          • vyas says:

            //what are you saying, I have been to my village regularly since my childhood, and I have also got got answer from others that, Dalits will not be allowed to enter inside the grammam.. //

            There is an air force community apartment near my area. I’ve been residing nearby that area ever since my childhood and not once I was allowed to enter it. The same is the case for most of the residents here. Not one ever protested to enter that protected area. Everybody has an understanding of what that protected area is meant for and refrain themselves from entering it. This understanding is what that’s missing in us right now.

          • senthil says:

            @surya,

            What u r giving is partial details.. without understanding the history of the village, and its structure, u cannot understand things.. it is based on this partial understanding that our own people are falling in to enemy’s propoganda..

            Every jathi have their own settlements.. The dalit communities have their own.. one community does not go in to others settlement.. (for eg, even higher caste communities does not go into agraharams.. ) .. it is only for the occupational needs, one goes there.. for eg, a leather working community may enter an agraharam to clean any dead animals.. but they will not go there without any reason..

            Why do you want everyone to poke in to every other settlements? Will you accept everyone to enter in to your compound daily? WHy NOT you see the whole settlement as one big commune home ?

            Unless we need to develop the guts to face the propoganda onslaught, we will be always licking the enemy’s feet..

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            Fair enough, what villagers from my caste did not like was that in the past, it was acharam even to maintain distance for giving wood or what ever. The lower castes used to eat frog/snakes etc.. They were left on their own, and untouchability was practised, which is better than slavery in the west for sure.. But still it was wrong IMO.. There is some need to improve their culture, slowly, thats why some castes are higher and some are lower.. Otherwise they would not grow up and remain lower.

            when science and technology came in, the dalits also had access to TV, internet etc.. This had a greater reach to all sections

  10. ruralbharath says:

    According to our ancient literature, we were classified only based on duties assigned. Based on duties assigned by birth we were classifed in to four “varnas”

    Brahmins are supposed to teach and improve the skills of other three “Varnas”. They are not suppose to go after money and are suppose to accept the “Gurudakshina” offered by the studnets voluntarily without making any demand.

    Kshatrias are the ruling class where they shold not only rule the country as per the “Dharmas Specified” but are duty bound to protect it from enemy invasion.

    Vysyas are the trading class and are suppose to distribute the goods evenly thoroughout the country.

    Sudras are the real producers of goods employing their skills in developing innovative products for mankind.

    People were permitted to choose their “varna” and there was no hard and fast rule. Rishi Viswamitra was not a brahmin by birth but by acquiring knowldege and wisdom, became “Brahma Rishi”

    Atheism was an accepted practice in “Sanathana Dharma” but to my knowledge no other religion accepts the same

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism

    Great Tamil poet Nakkirar challenged Lord Shiva over a grammatrical mistake in a poem composed by Lord Shiva himself.

    There was no fifth “Varna” and the present day SC and ST (so called “dalits”) were part and parcel of the one of the four “Varnass” mentioned above

    • senthil says:

      /** People were permitted to choose their “varna” and there was no hard and fast rule. **/

      This is one of the worst disease found among hindus.. the aversion to anything birth based..

      when you say people are permitted, it means people are slave to some one .. which is not possible in varna setup..

      No one forced or no one prevented any one .. people remained in their kula occupation, because its a dharma for them.. NOT business..

  11. vedamgopal says:

    why do we need a Hindu identity?” then the second question arises: “What is the Hindu identity? What does it mean to be a Hindu?” watch talk by Mr.Rajiv Malhotra


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTNimKhMkg

    • senthil says:

      i dont agree with Rajeev Malhotra.. you should analyse his views rather than believing him blindly..

      i am certain that Rajeev is ignorant about so many things, which he dont accept.. he is an expert in Christianity, and is extensively knowledged in ancient indian science.. but when it comes to society, culture and other aspects he is patently wrong.. i can confidently say this..

  12. Surya Ramachandran says:

    I have right now found conclusive evidence that the Mapilais of Malabar are NOT the trades since the Perumal time. It is true that there must have been some Muslim mosques, but till the end of 10th century their numbers would have been very small.

    This is because Sulaiman_al-Tajir, had explicity stated that he had NOT found even a single Muslim or Arabic speaking person in the Malabar coast.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulaiman_al-Tajir

    Check this nice book out.
    http://voiceofdharma.org/books/imwat/index.htm

    • senthil says:

      you need to consider the population explosing in past 200 years.. mapillas are clearly muslim traders for whom the theeyas gave their daughters..

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        The population percent right now for the Muslims in Kerala is 25%.. So for Mapillas it is 20%.. Such high population is purely cannot come due to differential birth rate.. Most them are Nambootiri converts, their illams are still of the Namboodri type. They dont have much knowledge of Arabic/urdu language, and Malayalam is sanskritized.

  13. Manimaran says:

    Jatis are a bane on Sanatana Dharma and responsible for India’s slavery for nearly 1000 years.
    http://ithihas.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/caste-system-in-india-a-critical-analysis/

  14. Venkataramani.R says:

    Jathi or Caste is not found in our ancient literature. There were only four “Varnas” and each Varna has to perform its Dharma of serving the society in a useful way. Every individual had the right to choose their Dharma irrespective of their birth. It was easy to follow parent’s dharma without going for a big training as just watching the father doing his duty brings lot of skills. At the same time, there is no hard and fast rule that one should follow only his father’s Dharma.

    Within the Varna’s, people living as groups in different geographical locations were assigned a name for their groupings. Each group had their own unique practices and they tried to marry within their group just to preserve the practices of their ancestors. Later on the name assigned to the group evolved as Jathi or Caste. But there was absolutely no quarrel between Jathis but only invaders succeeded in creating rift between these Jathis.

    Instead of blaming the “divide and rule” policies of the invaders, blaming the Varna system seems to be wrong. Before foreign invasion, though the country was not united, was one of the leading economies of the world for several centuries. China and India were most prosperous economies in the World before British invasion. Our food grain output was more than 1000 Kgs per annum and food was offered freely throughout the country. India faced one of the worst famines in its history only after British invasion.

    As Poet Subramania Barathi said, “Let there be thousands of Jathis” but we should sincerely attempt to remove the conflicts among Jathis instead of blaming the Varna system as per our Santhana Dharma

    • senthil says:

      /** Every individual had the right to choose their Dharma irrespective of their birth **/

      You are simply repeating the same absurdity again and again.. varna and jathi are always birth based..

      The entire lineage of Ishvaku is based on birth..

      The mahabharatha war itself is based on birth based varna.. on what basis did pandavas claimed their throne? on birth based..

      No where in our history, does a king was chosen.. it is the first son who takes over the mantle, and only if he is not willing or not fit, the next son is chosen..

      Kula, gothra are the core of our society.. and the Urban Hindus, who are warped in to global corporate capitalistic system had become hostile to their own society..

      The urban hindus are the virus within our society killing from within..

  15. The Hindu identity – Dharmic identity, IS the foundation on which our civilizational edifice has been constructed. Practice of Sanathana Dharma (Hinduism) confers legitimacy, which in turn bestows rights, to a person to achieve his purusharthas in this land. Only ‘Hinduism – Sanathana Dharma’ gives true unity because it amalgamates all its practitioners in this Bharathavarsha under the single rubric – ‘Hindu’.

    The first question to be asked while identifying a person (identification – friend or foe, as they call in the military), is, “Are you a practitioner of Dharma?”. If the answer is “No” then he is an interloper and is to be treated accordingly.

    If the answer is “Yes”, one may proceed to ask, “In what manner are you striving to achieve your purusharthas?” (Achieving one’s purusharthas with moksha at the end should be the aim of living this life). At a mundane level the answer to this question will, on the basis of the duties performed, identify a person’s ‘historic, economic and political connections’ to the wider society.

    On what basis is the duty (svadharma) of a person determined? Svadharma is determined on the basis of a person’s svabhava and this is what Varnasrama (jathi) Dharma is all about.

    A person cannot escape action – karma, because it is in the nature of all living beings. Performing karma (action, work, duty) in the correct manner – svadharma as per svabhava, guarantees a person moksha, which ought to be the final reward for any legitimate practitioner of Dharma (Hinduism).

    Therefore, in the pursuit of one’s purusharthas, Hinduism and Varnasrama / Jathi are inseparable. There is no basis in Hinduism for negating the jathi identity, and as a natural corollary, one cannot cling on to the jathi identity and renounce Hinduism. Hinduism without the jathi identity and vice versa are both meaningless. One cannot simply exist without the other.

    Any proposal which separates the foundation (Sanathana Dharma) from the edifice (Varnasrama – Jathi Dharma) is condemnable as adharmic because it severs the ‘economic and political’ connections of society. A so called ‘Hindu’ acting in a manner inimical to the Varnasrama-Jathi system is committing adharma and should loose the right to identify himself a ‘Hindu’. Likewise conversion to an Abrahamic creed results in a person following an adharmic dogma and this should result in the loss of the erstwhile jathi identity and its resultant rights and privileges. In a lighter vein, the next time you run into Mr. Ambi Iyer, corporate head hocho, identify him as correctly as a ‘non-Hindu’, and in a similar manner, Mr. Joseph Nadar ought to have no legitimate claims on the Nadar jathi identity!

    • senthil says:

      Your comment is the usual vague “Hindu” narration.. only conceptual without any example.. how long are we going to live in this illusion?

      Please see our history from practical point of view.. NOT from theoritical or conceptal perspective..

      • Role of Hindu Identity: The Hindu – Sanathana Dharma identity is the substratum of our civilization. It provides legitimacy to and acts as a glue amalgamating our diverse jathi and territorial identities, which spring from the font of Dharma.

        Territorial: The original fifty six desams constitute our (Hindu) lebensraum because dharma was practiced in these lands since times immemorial. All these lands are Hindu lands and all Hindus have a legitimate claim on them.

        The Hindu identity is the base from which all other identities arise and flourish, Our primary collective identity is ‘Hindu’, and our individual or personal identity is the ‘Jathi’.

        The jathi identity cannot be primary because jathi is but an instrument in the practice of Dharma – Hinduism. Of course this applies only to common folk. Sanyasis, rishis and Realized Souls are still primarily Hindus, but having progressed beyond the purview of individual jathi identity in their practice of Dharma, they are exempt.

        Can a common person be Hindu and at the same time reject his jathi identity? Hinduism is the practice of Sanathana Dharma and the jathi system is probably its most important implement. If a person rejects such an important method in the practice of Dharma, he can no longer be considered an observant Hindu.

        Can a person retain his jathi identity and not be a Hindu at the same time? Certainly not! Since jathis are instruments in the practice of Hinduism, that identity cannot be used with the same legitimacy in non-Hindu settings. A person converting to an Abrahamic faith has rejected Hinduism and therefore ought not to claim the legitimacy of his erstwhile jathi identity which is an intrinsic part of Dharma/Hinduism.

        The previous point can be used if, as you say, “…constitutionally recognize jathi as part of Hindu society”. If you are a Hindu, you automatically have a jathi. A non-Hindu cannot have a jathi identity.

        Why is Corporate CEO Mr. Ambi Iyer to be considered a non-Hindu? He is not a practicing Hindu as per the tenets of Dharma. The jathi epithet ‘Iyer’ is a meaningless tag with no genuine sanction in his case. Likewise Mr Joseph Nadar, even if practicing his erstwhile jathi vocation, cannot claim the Nadar identity because jathi identities belong to observant Hindus only. The minute Mr. Joseph Nadar abandoned his primary Hindu identity, he automatically looses his jathi identity also, because the jathi identity rests the basis of being a practicing Hindu.

  16. RVR says:

    Before Buddhism and Jainism, there was no religion in India and only Sanathana Dharma prevailed. However majority of the people ignored both Buddhism and Jainism.

    However invaders brought their religions to India and forcibly converted certain sections of Indians to their faith. Religious Poison was planted in India only by the invaders. It is high time, people give up their religion and follow Sanathana Dharma so that India prospers in the future.

  17. I think instead of viewing option 2, as being suppressive of identities we should consider it as a protective cover. Unfortunately though, BJP uses Hindutva not as a protective cover but one that refuses to acknowledge the jAthi – varna framework. Hence the problem is not of the cover per se, but BJP which is mired in “all men are created equal” USA logic. I doubt whether it will realise its errors, even when the end of time comes..

  18. Traditionalists tend to view identities as concentric circles. So is the case with Hindutva. We all have different identities which is encompassed by the largest of all the concentric circles, Hindu. So when we talk to a non-Hindu, identify ourselves as a Hindu. When talking to other Hindus, we should be able to use our jAthi without demeaning one other.

    • senthil says:

      I see our history from ethnic perspective.. and from the native identities.. the below is the way we should identify ourselves..

      1. Jathi identity – it is the primary identity

      2. From our original religion – as vaishnavas, shaivas, smarthas etc

      3. Identify as bharathiyas..

      out of the above three, the native religious identity will be best w.r.t to foreigners .. eg> vaishnava, shaiva etc..

      • “Jathi identity – it is the primary identity”, followed by the “original religion – as vaishnavas, shaivas smarthas etc” i.e Dharmic identity:

        A brahmin priest converts to an Abrahamic faith. He renounces his Dharmic religious identity for an Abrahamic creed. Does he still retain his Jathi identity?

        If Yes, can he continue his duties as a brahmana? After all he is still a brahmin, isn’t he?
        If No, does it not accrue that the primary identity is Hinduism followed by the jathi identity in a secondary capacity?

        The “native religious identity”, (vaishnavism, smarthas, shaivites) is significant only amongst those who follow Dharma and has no relevance to non-Dharmic foreigners.

        These “native religious identities” all have the prasthanathrayam (Upanishads, Brahmasutras and Bhagavad Gita) as their reference (pramaanam) and are all legitimate ways to practice Dharma. A practitioner of Dharma i.e a Hindu, while meeting another Hindu may legitimately enquire as to how the other person practices Dharma (Vaishnavism, Shaivism etc). These distinct “native religious identities” with roots in Hinduism carry no such special meaning or relevance to a foreigner with no concept of Dharma.

        A follower of Dharma has to introduce himself only as a Hindu to a non-Dharmic foreigner.

        • senthil says:

          /** A brahmin priest converts to an Abrahamic faith. He renounces his Dharmic religious identity for an Abrahamic creed. Does he still retain his Jathi identity?
          **/

          What about brahmins who moved to urban centers, embraces consumerist life style.. he renounces all his dharmic duties, except for some rituals which he does for his personal selfish needs.. in what way is he different from those who convert to abrahamic faiths? why do you consider the urban brahmins as brahmins whereas abrahamic brahmins are not recognised?

          i am not supporting conversion here.. but if u hv some criteria that should be evaluated for all circumstances..

          In my view, a brahmin who converts to christianity, still retains his jathi, if he follows the same brahminic acharam..

          /** If No, does it not accrue that the primary identity is Hinduism followed by the jathi identity in a secondary capacity?
          **/

          NO.. still his primary identity is brahmin, bcoz he wants to retain this identity even after conversion..

          /** The “native religious identity”, (vaishnavism, smarthas, shaivites) is significant only amongst those who follow Dharma and has no relevance to non-Dharmic foreigners.
          **/

          But you dont want to accept these native religious identity even among people of dharma, and want to super-impose hinduism on it..

          Native religious identity is much more important, because a person can convert to vaishnavam and adopt its rituals.. but he cannot convert to Hinduism, because it doesnt exist in reality.. there is no god, no rituals, no culture or nothing that defines hinduism.. whereas, vaishnavam and shaivam is defined clearly by our gurus..

          • I do not consider urban brahmins as genuine brahmanas. In fact, in my earlier reply, I condemn them outright as non-Hindus and provide an example in the form of the fictional Mr. Ambi Iyer, Corporate CEO. I have also emphatically stated that the Jathi epithet “Iyer” is meaningless in this instance since no duty prescribed to a brahmana is performed by this person and his continued usage of the Jathi identity “Iyer” can carry no legitimate Dharmic sanction. Rest assured Sir, there is no question of me supporting any “urban brahmin”!

            A Jathi is but an instrument and a means for a person to practice Sanathana Dharma i.e Hinduism. A brahmana upholds Sanathana Dharma by performing his prescribed Dharmic duties, as do all the other Varnas/Jathis. The acharams peculiar to each Varna/Jathi are but a means to facilitate faultless execution of the prescribed duties of each Varna/Jathi. A brahmana who converts to an Abrahamic faith repudiates Sanathana Dharma itself. When the objective and the desired result of upholding Sanathana Dharma is itself abjured by a person, what other purposes can be served by the Jathi identity and its associated acharams? Recitation of the Vedas after denouncing Sanathana Dharma is akin to Satan chanting prayers!

            One acquires a legitimate identity only by being true both in spirit and deed to that identity. Just because I wear a loincloth, turban and stand behind a plough, I do not become a bona fide farmer, do I?

            Native Religious Identity: In my earlier replies, I have already stated that identities like Vaishnavism and Shaivism are all based on the Prasthanathrayam (Upanishads, Brahmasutras and Bhagavad Gita) and hence legitimate and Dharmic. They are all constituent parts of Sanathana Dharma and are merely different paths to a single final goal. The question of superimposing “Hinduism” on these native religious identities does not arise because they are all already out-and-out “Hindu”!

            Just as a person is born in a Jathi, he is born into a “native religious identity”. In the vast majority of cases, a person automatically assumes and practices the “native religious identity” of his father and ancestors. Just like there was no conversion from one Jathi to another, there was not much interchange between native religious identities. However, I do agree that changes in the “native religious identity” did occur, but the novitiate had to undergo the due process and be initiated by a bona fide Guru before the ‘conversion’ could take place. It should be noted that all these paths lead to the same final result, and no single “native religious identity” was superior or inferior to the other. In most cases, a genuine Guru would probably advice the novitiate to persevere in his indigenous “native religious identity” because the end result was the same whichever path was followed, and moreover, no one was in the business of harvesting souls for salvation!

          • senthil says:

            /** A Jathi is but an instrument and a means for a person to practice Sanathana Dharma i.e Hinduism. A brahmana upholds Sanathana Dharma by performing his prescribed Dharmic duties, as do all the other Varnas/Jathis.
            **/

            I request you to throw away all the colonial terminologies like “Hinduism”, “Sanathana Dharma” etc.. these are not our original narrations.. infact there is no term like sanathana dharma in our literature.. everyone has been captivated by this illusionary terminologies..

            try understanding our society & history without using these terminologies.. that will give u entirely new perspective..

            Today, we have to deal with this Jathi aspect on two terms..

            1. Jathi as an instrument of Social Organisation – whether dharma is there or not..
            2. Jathi as a means of re-converting people.. ie, those people who converted to christianity retains their jathi identity.. eg: hindu nadaras and christian nadars.. so if u want to reconvert those people, it is their hindu counterparts who would be able to do that.. that would refit them to their old social structure.. whereas the present hindutva approach will be meaningless..

            So pls come out of the religious mindset and focus on societal approach.. when a person is converted in to christianity, he is actually refitted in to a christian social practice.. right from food style to matrimony to death ceremony, it is his social practice that is being changed.. worshipping of Jesus is just minor part..

            to re-convert we have to bring out of that social practice and put him in his pre-christian jathi roots..

          • vyas says:

            //I request you to throw away all the colonial terminologies like “Hinduism”, “Sanathana Dharma” etc.. these are not our original narrations.. infact there is no term like sanathana dharma in our literature.. everyone has been captivated by this illusionary terminologies..//

            Senthil – You have become a dictator now a days. The seer of Sringeri keep pontificating about Sanatana Dharma every often in his speeches. Do you think you are much knowledgeable than him? I’m glad you didn’t say “there is nothing called Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharatha…it was all colonial creation”

          • senthil says:

            /** The seer of Sringeri keep pontificating about Sanatana Dharma every often in his speeches.
            **/

            Today everyone is speaking about Sanathana Dharma.. but show me whether this was present in any of our literatures? is it quoted in bagawad gita, ramayana, mahabharatha, bagawatham or any other texts? pls answer directly without calling me as dictator…

            Sringeri Matathipathi speaking about sanathana dharma is a non-issue.. bcoz the hindutva has corrupted every native institutions and politicised it..

      • vedamgopal says:

        “Which scenario do we want” This article talks about the preference of Hindu identity as base or top cover and now Mr.Senthil completely avoid the word Hindu and says a wrong priority list starting with jathi first (number of jathis in India – can you list?) , native religious identity Saivam, Vaishnava & what else- can you list out – which is suitable identification for foreigners – how ? & bharathiyas – is it national identity or what else ? Also in the two figures at the end of the Article Mr.Senthil proudly mention his Jathi and forget ?

        // After a study of some 40 years and more of the great religion of the world, I find non so perfect, none so scientific, none so philosophical and none so spiritual that the great religion known by the name HINDUISM. Make no mistake, without HINDUSIM, INDIA has no future. HIndusim is the soil into which India’s roots are stuck and torn out of that she will inevitably wither as a tree torn out from its place. And if Hindus do not maintain Hindusim who shall save it ? If India’s own children do not cling to her faith who shall guard it. India alone can save India and India and Hinduism are one // w.r.t. foreigners

        • senthil says:

          i could not get what you are conveying in this comment..

          • vedamgopal says:

            திரு செந்திலுக்கு ஏன் புரியவில்லை ? இந்த கட்டுரையின் முடிவில் இரண்டு படம் போட்டு நாம் ஹி்ந்து என்பதை எப்படி அடையாளப்படுத்த வேண்டும் அதாவது ஹிந்து என்பதை ஒரு மரத்தின் வேராகவா அல்லது ஹிந்து என்பதை எல்லாவற்றையும் மூடி மறைக்கும் ஒரு மேல் மூடியாகவா பயன்படுத்த வேண்டும் என்று கேள்வி எழுப்பியுள்ளார் ? மேலும் அந்த மர படத்தில் சௌகரியமாக முதலி பிள்ளை போன்ற வெள்ளாள ஜாதிகளை உலக அதிசயம் போல் கோடிட்டு காட்டுகிறார். அங்கே முக்கியமாக உலகறிந்த ஜாதியின் பெயர் காணவில்லை. இந்த முதலி பிள்ளை போன்ற ஜாதி அடையாளங்கள் ஏதோ புராணகாலம் தொட்டு இருந்துவருவது போலவும் ஹிந்து சனாதன தர்மம் போன்ற வார்த்தைகள் சமீபத்தில்தான் உபயோகப்படுத்திகிறோம் என்கிறார் ! முதலி பிள்ளை பேர்கள் வந்ததின் மூலத்தை எடுத்தால் பலர் வருத்தப்படுவார்கள்.

            ஹிந்து அடையாளத்தை பற்றி பேசாமல் ஜாதியை முதல் அடையாளமாக சொல்கிறார் – இந்தியாவில் எத்தனை ஜாதிகள் உள்ளன என்று முதலில் தெரியுமா ? அடுத்து அவர் அவர்களது சொந்த மதமான சைவம் வைணவம் இவற்றை இரண்டாவது அடையாளமாக சொல்கிறார். இதை தவிற வேறு இந்திய சொந்த மதங்களை பட்டியல் இடமுடியுமா ? மேலும் இதுதான் மேலைநாட்டினருக்கு தோதான அடையாளம் என்கிறார் ? அது எப்படி என்று விளக்கமுடியுமா? கடைசியா பாரதியர்கள் என்று அடையாளப்படுத்துகிறார் ஆனால் இது தேசியத்தை குறிக்கிறதா அல்லது வேறு எதை குறிக்கிறது ?

            ஹிந்து ஹிந்துமதம் ஹிந்துஸ்தான் என்பது ஒரு பெரிய மரத்தின் வேர்பாகம் அதைதான் வெளிநாட்டினரான அன்னிபெசண்டு அம்மையார் சொல்லியுள்ளார் ( நான் மதங்களை பற்றி 40 வருடங்களாக பார்த்து படித்து அனுபவத்தில் சொல்கிறேன் ” உலகில் ஹிந்து மத்ததை போல் ஒரு பூர்ணத்துவத்தை அடைந்து விஞ்ஞானபூர்வமான தத்துவஞானம் பெற்ற ஆண்மீகமான மதங்கள் வேறு எதுவும் கிடையாது. ஹிந்து மதம் இல்லாமல் இந்தியாவிற்கு எதிர்காலம் கிடையாது. அந்த தவற்றை ஒரு பொழுதும் செய்யாதீர்கள். இந்தியாவின் மண் ஹிந்து மதம் என்ற பிரம்மாண்ட மரத்தின் வேர்களால் நாடு முழுவதும் ஊன்றியிருக்கிறது. ஹிந்து மதம் இல்லை என்றால் இந்தியா ஒரு பட்ட மரம்போல் அழிந்துவிடும். ஹிந்துக்கள் ஹிந்து மதத்தை பின்பற்றாவிடில் வேறு யார்தான் அதை பின்பற்றுவார்கள். நமது இளைஞர்கள் ஹிந்து மதத்தின் மேல் பற்று வைகாவிடில் யார்தான் காப்பாற்றுவார்கள். இந்தியாவை ஹிந்துக்கள்தான் பாதுகாக்கவேண்டும். இந்தியாவும் ஹிந்து மதமும் ஒன்றே அன்றி வேறு வேறு அல்ல” )

          • senthil says:

            /** ஹிந்து ஹிந்துமதம் ஹிந்துஸ்தான் என்பது ஒரு பெரிய மரத்தின் வேர்பாகம் அதைதான் வெளிநாட்டினரான அன்னிபெசண்டு அம்மையார் சொல்லியுள்ளார் ( நான் மதங்களை பற்றி 40 வருடங்களாக பார்த்து படித்து அனுபவத்தில் சொல்கிறேன் ” உலகில் ஹிந்து மத்ததை போல் ஒரு பூர்ணத்துவத்தை அடைந்து விஞ்ஞானபூர்வமான தத்துவஞானம் பெற்ற ஆண்மீகமான மதங்கள் வேறு எதுவும் கிடையாது. ஹிந்து மதம் இல்லாமல் இந்தியாவிற்கு எதிர்காலம் கிடையாது.
            **/

            Just because annie besant has praised and eulogised the sanatana dharma, we all should suspend our mind and believe in to them?? RM exactly points to this Dhimmitude.. that our people completely fall if some westerners praise us..

            Annie Besant, Theosophical Society, and many other institutions are part of the Colonial entity.. agent of rothschild illuminatis.. their goal is to create a mental framework to digest the native knowledge systems.. One such person is the Rudolf stainer who stole the astrological farming practices and re-introduced as bio-dynamic farming in germany.. today our people learns the same as german technology..

            so please stop this dhimmitude and first understand what is ours and what is NOT ..

  19. How did Bharat got enslaved by Invasion of Mughals,later by British & other Europeans ? Jaathis existed before invasion, kingdoms existed, various desams existed too. Then how could invaders succeed in slowly grabbing bit by bit of our land & imposed their cultures, religions upon us – native Bharathiya. Important reason of this is the non-existence of Hindu-ness (just some name).
    If we have to prevent further invasion & loosing the remaining cultural identity, Hindu-ness seems to be compulsory. Abandoning Hindu-ness or abandoning Jaathis, both are wrong.
    Within the protected country, all Jaathis can very well flourish;

    • senthil says:

      You are displaying an extreme phobia of abrahamic invasion.. this phobia makes everyone reactionary and NOT independant thinkers..

      The invaders did not get foothold one fine day.. they were successfully thwarted for more than 300 years..

      and we did not lose our cultural identity by muslim invasion.. we are losing it ONLY now by the invasion of Global Capitalists supported by the urban hindus..

  20. vyas says:

    //Today everyone is speaking about Sanathana Dharma.. but show me whether this was present in any of our literatures? is it quoted in bagawad gita, ramayana, mahabharatha, bagawatham or any other texts? //

    So you want our scriptures to talk explicitly about everything for us to practice it just like the Bible/Kuran? Does any of the scriptures that you mentioned above talk about jaathis directly? Will you stop practicing it? Sanatana Dharma is a term coined to emphasize the functioning of a dharmic universe. People may wrongly project it as a religion just like they do it with jaathis too. On your question about Sanatana Dharma, just check this video. See it starting from 8:00. It’s in telugu but still understandable.

  21. vyas says:

    //dont you find the above two points by you ironical? pls dont blindly defend any one..//

    First stop thinking that you are the only right person in the world. There may be some contradictions between my views and the likes of Rajiv/Swamy, but that doesn’t mean we can completely ignore them. When you have a political vote bank system, every means of social entity will be abused and jaathi is no exception. Are your own stupid vellala politicians not doing it?

    //That’s the core problem i am pointing to.. the politicians are abusing jathi to meet the secular criteria set by westerners and the media controlled by them.. why this dhimmitude? //

    Are only politicians abusing jaathi? Are Jaathi leaders themselves not doing it? How many jaathi leaders give mutual respect to other jaathi members? I can show you several examples where some jaathi men treat other jaathi people worse than stray dogs. In fact the hatred of jaathis significantly increased only because of these people. You talk about Brahmin lawyers ill-treating non-Brahmin clients, but never ever mention about the atrocities committed by the likes of Mudhaliars/Chettiars against parayas and pallars.

    // but why are people like you show the same dhimmitude by denying or neglecting jathi?//

    When the hell did I neglect jaathi?

    //if the Hindu Politicians had pro-actively engaged Jathis, they could have captured power long back..//

    Did they not do so? They had been engaging jaathis in politics right from the beginning. This is one of the reasons why national parties are not able to gain majority vote share even today. It is only the corporate media and their goons that constantly discourage the politicians from engaging jaathis in politics.

    //In this election, it is the jathi based parties which whole heartedly supporting BJP without any worry of Secularism..//

    Is it? Do you really think BJP can obtain majority in this election? You also need to understand that a majority of vote share for BJP in this election is primarily due to anti-incumbency against the existing govt and secondly for Modi. No one is voting for BJP just because it’s a Hindu party. Our people never acknowledged Hindu as an identity. They use it only as a classification to distinguish themselves from Christians/Muslims.

    //Its the fault of stupid urban hindus like you.. the hostility shown by you people are the important reason..//

    Anybody who has a slightly different viewpoint than you is an urban Hindu for you. You are no different than those AAP people who classify everyone as anti-nationals barring just them.

  22. I agree with you that the word “Hindu” is a name given to us by foreigners. It seems to be a name without any specific content and is better discarded.

    I, however, beg to differ on the term “Sanatana Dharma” being a colonial construct. In the course of my very perfunctory browsing of our texts I have come across the word Sanatana Dharma in the Manusmriti:
    “Satyam bruyaat priyam bruyaanna bruyaat satyam apriyam
    Priyam cha nanrutam cha bruyaad esa dharma: sanatana:”
    Esa – this, Dharma – that which supports, foundation, Sanatana – from times immemorial, eternal.

    Sanatana Dharma is not an illusory terminology. “Dharmasya vishwasya jagath: prathishtaa” (Dharma is the firm foundation on which the entire Universe rests).

    It is important to understand this because without the foundation of Sanatana Dharma, all this bewildering medley of diverse varnas, jathis, gods, rites, beliefs and philosophies are just only that – a miscellaneous assortment of dogma with no underlying rationality. In such a scenario, your insistence of “Social Organization – whether there is Dharma or not”, will just be an ideology the diametric opposite of “ Annihilation of Castes”, and nothing more then “Senthilism”! ;) ;)

    The more I ponder on this issue, the more I feel we both are in broad agreement except for some differences in nuance.

    Jathi is definitely a method of Social Organization, about which there can be no doubt. At a mundane level we may simplify it as a means of economic co-operation in society.

    I also agree that people who have converted to other religions have to be rebooted into their original jathis. Leaving them in limbo as an “Hindu” will be condemning them to a ‘trishanku” fate!

    The reason for my emphasis on Sanatana Dharma being the foundation of our societal structure (given that jathi is but a method of social organization) is that it is the best example of ecological rationality. Leaving philosophy and religion aside, we may say that this Sanatana Dharma system evolved spontaneously over millennia in the course of human interaction and society formation. “..an undesigned ecological system that emerges out of cultural and biological evolutionary processes.. (Vernon L. Smith, Economics Nobel Prize Lecture). All systems in Nature, biological and otherwise, have an innate Intelligence embedded deeply in them. (Water is like water as we know it, not because of an accident of chance, but because of an underlying rational logic, and that logic is called ‘ecological rationality’.) Being a natural process of evolution, it provides ‘the best fit possible taking into account all the circumstances’ and can seldom be improved upon by human endeavor. In other words it is a perfect system.

    The tendency of the Hindutva-vadis to deny jathi and lump everybody under a single artificial “Hindu” identity is just the manifestation of Man’s tendency to fiddle with society and civilization without comprehending all the nuances completely. This is called ‘constructivism’ as in being constructed by humans. Constructivist systems (capitalism, communism and the revealed Abrahamic religions) are never perfect and require repeated tinkering because all possible outcomes which are accommodated by gradual evolution in ecological systems cannot be accounted for in a system constructed by human effort. The imperfections in these systems are the source of constant strife and conflict in their societies. Likewise, the emphasis on negating jathi by the jathi denying Hindutva-vadis creates conflicts in our society by interfering with the settled order.

    I take this opportunity in wishing you a very happy Tamil New Year! Puththaandu Vaazhthukkal! May this ensuing Jaya Varusham provide all joy and prosperity to you and your family! May your pen become more sharp in this year in the service of society!

    And as far as the Jathi denying nihilists are concerned, I wish them all a happy Dr Ambedkar Jayanthi! ;) ;)

    • senthil says:

      Thanks a lot.. thanks for your quote from manusmriti.. i agree with most of your points..

      /** The reason for my emphasis on Sanatana Dharma being the foundation of our societal structure (given that jathi is but a method of social organization) is that it is the best example of ecological rationality. Leaving philosophy and religion aside, we may say that this Sanatana Dharma system evolved spontaneously over millennia in the course of human interaction and society formation. “..an undesigned ecological system that emerges out of cultural and biological evolutionary processes.
      **/

      Why not Kula Dharma be foundation? by insisting on sanatana dharma, do u want to systematise (ie, institutionalise) dharma?

      bcoz there is a large difference b/w “dharmaha sanatanaha” (dharma is sanatana) and sanatana dharma..

      • “Why not Kula Dharma as the foundation?”

        Sanatana Dharma can be likened to the sruthi in music. If we consider the various ragas and kirtanas as kula dharma, they will sound like mellifluous music only if the musician adheres to the sruti, or else it is mere noise!

        Kula dharma is not decided by a single person – it is not revealed as in Abrahamic religions. It has evolved over millennia taking into account all the factors and practices peculiar to that particular kulam over the ages. Hence it has also existed since times immemorial and, in that sense, is Sanatana Dharma.

        Consider the ‘membership’ of jathis. Can anybody ‘join’ a jathi? What are the ‘membership criteria’ to belong to a jathi?

        It is purely hereditary – vertical, which also implies ‘lateral’ entry is prohibited. A person, after having been born into a particular jathi, has to observe all its acharams and anushtanams to be considered a bona fide member.

        What is the basis for such an important proclamation?

        The answer to this question takes us to the Bhagavad Gita (One of the prasthanathrayam)
        “Chaturvarnyam maya shristam….” and other slokas. (Let us not digress too much here!)

        ‘Membership’ of a jathi is on the basis of a person being born into that jathi and that is the result of his poorva janma karma.

        This principle, which is the raison d’être of the jathi system can be explained only with reference to the Prasthanathrayam.

        Let us, for a moment, remove this philosophical foundation of the jathi system. In that case, a jathi is nothing more than a cabal, an organization of a group of people, somewhat like the clubs with boards proclaiming, “Dogs and Indians not permitted”! It may even attract anti-trust and anti-competition penalties in this day and age! If it becomes open-for-all, it is nothing more than a corporate!

        This foundational principle which draws its authority from the Prasthanathrayam and enables a jathi to legitimately say “only-so-and-so-and-not-everybody-are-our-members” is Sanatana Dharma. Only Sanatana Dharma provides authority to that particular statement and that is why I consider it the bedrock of our society.

        Such lofty philosophical thought is seldom needed in the daily routine. The question, “who are you?” can be most satisfactorily answered by saying, “I am a person belonging to such-and-such-a kulam” At a practical level in daily life, kula dharma obviously attains predominance and conducts our daily life. Recourse to the Prasthanathrayam is needed only to answer questions of a more fundamental nature.

        Kula Dharma and Sanatana Dharma answer the same question of identity but at different planes. At a mundane level we are Homo sapiens, but we are also “Thou art That” (Tat Tvam Asi) at the very pinnacle of thought! Kula Dharma and Sanatana Dharma answer the same questions, but at different planes!

        We practitioners of Sanatana Dharma already know “Thou art That”. This comes into play only while dealing with non-Dharmic Abrahamic creeds. A person may observe all the acharams and anushtanams of a brahmana, but if he belongs to another faith and denies this Mahavakya, he can never be considered a brahmana. (Let us ignore the fact that vaishnavas may have some trouble with this Mahavakya, but that is an entirely different topic!) Kula dharma regulates the daily life of a bona fide brahmana while Sanathana dharma is what makes a person a brahmana in the first place.

        Going back to your original figures, I would suggest Sanatana Dharma nurtures our civilization in both the ways depicted – it forms the strong nourishing roots and trunk and at the same time acts like a parasol protecting us from alien dogma!

  23. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** I’m only saying that Nagaraas by themselves are kind of adharmic. We could have sustained lifestyle with just the Graamaas, but we did feel the need for Nagaraas.
    **/

    Nagaras were NOT adharmic.. it is cities of today which is adharmic.. Nagaras is meant as administrative capital, economic capital, and mostly a temporary place where people come for trade or administrative purposes..

  24. Zed says:

    senthil says:
    “April 11, 2014 at 1:29 am
    /** The idea was that you can keep your Jati but come together under some circumstances. **/

    If you say Jathi is part of hinduism, why should you ask people to keep jathi out? this itself shows your hostile attitude?

    Why not jathi as a whole come for your so called hinduism support?”
    ********************

    Who ever said to keep the Jati out? What happened to your “buddhi”? Can’t you comprehend?
    And why make things personal with things like “your so called hinduism support”.? Did I ever claim to be a hindu? Maybe I am not, maybe I am.

    I explained to you what the idea was from Hindutva folks and asked you for references to where the Jati destroying advocacy came from. Instead you resort to some immature crap.

    Mental adolescents like you who cannot even follow an argument but instead make it personal are like termites that will eventually bring the house down. You are worse than “metro indians” in destroying the Jati. Why don’t you take some time off from your coolie work in metros and go spend some time in the village. Maybe you will gain some ‘gyanam’ in addition to resetting your ‘buddhi’.

    Damn, I feel sorry for myself for even wading into this discussion.

    • senthil says:

      @Zed,

      I am surprised by your angry comment.. is ur angry bcoz i attacked hinduism? by the term “YOur so called HInduism”, i only meant your perspective of hinduism.. dont intend any other meaning..

      • Zed says:

        It is because you don’t seem to comprehend, or understand the difference between “destroying jati” vs. “keep jati but come together”. Calling it a nuance is an understatement.
        Obviously if you have read the works of ‘hindutva’ folks, you would have understood that difference.

        Irrespective of that the key questions that you have not satisfactorily answered so far is: If Jati was so good and nice, how come it never got exported outside of India. And how come others managed to destroy this system over time?
        This same question was addressed by Savarkar and Hedgewar and they came up with the hypothesis that it is because of non-uniformity and non-mingling of various peoples that we got taken.This was based on observations at their time and the world around them. Right or wrong, they acted on those ideas but never explicitly called for Jati to be destroyed. For you to make that claim is disingenuous. Are they correct in their hypothesis? I don’t think so, but that is another matter.

        Even Ambedkar never said jati should be destroyed. He was nicer. He only called for hinduism to be destroyed. He was more of an advocate for his Jati and insults faced by his Jati than anything else.

        So? Do you have an answer to the above question? If somebody attacked your house and destroyed it, would you not want to know their motives? their techniques, for developing future countermeasures? Do you think they will leave you alone? What is the point of abusing your cousin who ran away while doing jack about those that precipitated that event? And BTW just to be clear you are one of those who ran away… so consider this before ranting against metro people.

        Try to answer without resorting to personal attacks: If Jati so so good, instead of the model being exported to other places why are Jati folks themselves giving it up? Do you really think the rest of the world will leave you alone in your Jati heaven in your village if you do manage to establish that?

        • vyas says:

          //If Jati so so good, instead of the model being exported to other places why are Jati folks themselves giving it up?//

          That’s because the Jaathi system is constantly being harassed. The people following that system are constantly being demotivated. Adding to this, the modern liberal system promotes love marriages heavily which in turn results in slow destruction of jaathis. Probably the only thing that reminds people of their jaathi identity today is their kula devatha. I strongly believe that jaathis will re-emerge with advancements in genetic studies.

        • senthil says:

          @Zed,

          /** Obviously if you have read the works of ‘hindutva’ folks, you would have understood that difference. **/

          I have personallly interacted with so many hindutva folks at ground level.. i knew their mindset very well.. asking to leave jathi for unity is also same as calling for destroying jathi.. in both case, jathi as a whole is neglected..

          I am asking this simple question.. why not unite jathi as a whole, in the traditional way..?

          /** If Jati was so good and nice, how come it never got exported outside of India. **/

          Jathi is NOT a religion to be exported.. jathi existed through out the world.. u can understand it if u look the world history from ethnic perspective.. jathi should be seen as a component of that ethnic empire..

          /** And how come others managed to destroy this system over time? **/

          how come japan got defeated in WW-II.. ur question is like that.. we had been colonised by britishers, and the missionaries are continuously attacking jathi for 200 years.. instead of seeing jathi as a strong and resilient entity that withstood inspite of 200 years of attack, u r seeing it from negative point of view..

          WHen anything is attacked, it is bound to get damaged.. this is common happenings..

          /** Right or wrong, they acted on those ideas but never explicitly called for Jati to be destroyed. For you to make that claim is disingenuous.
          **/

          You are making a blatant denial.. the literature of Hindutva folks are there in public.. RSS has even tried to eradicate jathi at ground level, by doing inter-caste marriage b/w brahmins and slum people.. but that did not work out

          pls dont blindly defend people or organisation..

          /** Even Ambedkar never said jati should be destroyed. He was nicer. He only called for hinduism to be destroyed. He was more of an advocate for his Jati and insults faced by his Jati than anything else.
          **/

          Ambedkar is a colonial construct.. his own mahar jathi looked down upon jathi lower than them.. he did not attempt to question that..
          Its better to avoid these morons as much as possible..

          /** If somebody attacked your house and destroyed it, would you not want to know their motives? their techniques, for developing future countermeasures? Do you think they will leave you alone?
          **/

          Will u abandon ur house just bcoz some one is attacking you..

          • vyas says:

            // why not unite jathi as a whole, in the traditional way..?//

            How??? In my opinion, there is absolutely no sign of that happening. We are right now following jaathi only from an emotional perspective. We haven’t done anything to resurrect the lifestyle around it. If this trend continues we’ll probably lose jaathis completely in a generation or two.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            Every jathi has formed their jathi association, which only indicates that they are strongly self organised. The need of the hour is to organise the hindu community , and Hindu Organisation would have easily engaged each of these jathi associations, and supported them. This would have been a very very easy way of uniting people. Why is everyone hesitant to do this? The reason is that people could not come out of the mental slavery wrought by colonial propoganda. The aversion to jathi has not gone.

          • vyas says:

            //Every jathi has formed their jathi association, which only indicates that they are strongly self organised.//

            Senthil – The real question is what have these associations done for their jaathis? Does these jaathi associations have any voice among their people? Were your vellala community able to save farming? Back in those days, these jaathi associations were powerful and had a command over their group, but with the advent of individualism no one cares to bother about their jaathi associations. That’s because one does not need jaathis anymore for their survival. These jaathi associations have become akin to Lion’s club right now. Unless we create jaathi clusters and assign them enough powers, these jaathi associations will fade away eventually.

            //The need of the hour is to organise the hindu community , and Hindu Organisation would have easily engaged each of these jathi associations, and supported them//

            How will you do this? It’s very easy to say it in words but practically difficult to execute. Today, there is a deep misconception among the society that jaathi system itself was invented to manifest slavery. This idea has been so strongly planted in the minds of the young educated masses, that they have been programmed to equate jaathi for slavery. First tell me how are you going to eradicate this? What steps have these jaathi associations done to remove this mindset. What has your own vellala community done to change this mindset? Did you come up with any movement to remove the same? Do you conduct any intellectual debates to discuss such sensitive issues? Do our jaathi leaders have the capability to tackle those pseudo intellectuals who want to destroy jaathi system? What have your own vellala community done to tackle this? Barring just you, how many people from your community have come forward to take part in intellectual discussions? The only weapon our jaathi leaders have today is vote bank, with which they are able to win over some of their small agendas, but even this will not last long as voting is fast becoming jaathi neutral. We need to find some new methods to strengthen jaathis Unless we do so, there is no way to save jaathis. Merely marrying within the same caste won’t help.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            without studying about jathi associations, you are making weird comments.. that’s dis-appointing.. the fact that jathi associations exist is an indication that there are group of people who wanted to come together under their jathi identity.. you need to build upon this base..

            Jathi associations have all the flaws as every other associations or political parties.. you cannot expect 100% perfection from them.. you need to understand that they are functioning under extreme hostile government, surviving under villified campaign..

          • vyas says:

            //without studying about jathi associations, you are making weird comments.. that’s dis-appointing.. the fact that jathi associations exist is an indication that there are group of people who wanted to come together under their jathi identity.. you need to build upon this base..//

            I just don’t understand what’s the point in getting disappointed here. I’m only asking you to think constructively. I very well understand the intention of creating jaathi associations, but what have they achieved is the fundamental question. How many members of the jaathi association are ready to abide by the orders of the association leaders? Your own community must be having a lot of such associations in your village and other places. How many of these associations have passed resolutions to de-economize marriages? How many bride grooms of the vellala community are ready to accept brides from other poor vellala families without looking at the economic status quotient? Answer these questions upfront. Don’t try to dodge them or emotionalize them.

        • senthil says:

          @Zed,

          /** If Jati so so good, instead of the model being exported to other places why are Jati folks themselves giving it up?
          **/

          Jathi is NOT a religion to be exported or spread to other places.. ur comment only shows your ignorance..

          And people are forced to give up their jathis.. the economic and political and administrative structure that supported jathi was systematically dismantled and imposed with modern constitution that has no role for jathi and colonial beurocracy that is hostile to jathi.. i hv explained this many times before, but you missied this point..

          /**
          Do you really think the rest of the world will leave you alone in your Jati heaven in your village if you do manage to establish that?
          **/

          This line itself is out of contempt that u have within.. any way leaving it..

          If rest of the world doesnt leave me alone, it is NOT my fault.. the question is what do people like you do in such case? Support my right to live my jathi life undisturbed, or side with rest of the globe and attack jathi?

  25. RVR says:

    Jathi or caste is more powerful in India than the religion. Most of the Christian converts retain their original caste even after they change their faith. In Gujarat we are able to see names like “Ahmed Patel” which clearly shows that the people are carrying forward their “Patel” caste to Islam also.

    Most of the converts to other faiths keep marriage alliances within their “caste” only. Castes have probably originated from “Varna System” and most of us have given up our “Varnashrama Dharma” but retained our “Castes”. Now “Caste” has become a powerful weapon as most of the Government benefits such as reservation in educational instituions, jobs etc. If a brahmin boy marries a dalit girl, the child is treated as a “Brahmin” in the eyes of Law as father’s caste is given preference over mother’s caste.

    In view of the above, removing caste system under the present environment seems to me as a wasteful exercise. It is better to attempt removing discrimination based on the castes rather than removing the caste system. One is born in a particular caste just by accident and not out of his choice and as long as he is not discriminated, there is nothing wrong in retaining the “Caste” identity.

    • senthil says:

      You are commenting based on textbook knowledge.. and this textbook is composed by colonial historians.. please come out of it..

      There are many british manuals documenting the jathis of those days.. please read that, to understand the different jathis.. mere theoritical opinions would be artificial..

      Jathi has to be seen from its own historic background.. NOT from colonial narrations..

  26. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** Barring just you, how many people from your community have come forward to take part in intellectual discussions?
    **/

    At ground level, there has been massive awareness about jathi.. Many people are returning to their own roots.. need of the hour is NOT intelelctual discussion, but exploration of each one’s roots..

    Revive the tradition as much as you can, and that will rebuild the jathis, beyond matrimonial alliance..

    • vyas says:

      //At ground level, there has been massive awareness about jathi.. Many people are returning to their own roots.. need of the hour is NOT intelelctual discussion, but exploration of each one’s roots..//

      Senthil – You are again repeating the same junk. What’s the point in returning to your roots when it has no overall impact. There are certain grounds on which Jaathi stands (like marriage, social values etc). If these collapse, jaathi cannot survive. What has the jaathi communities done to strengthen these fundamental elements? What have these jaathi leaders done to prevent inter-caste love marriages? What have they done to counter the false propaganda against jaathi by the media? Instead of analyzing these fundamental issues, you keep repeating your same old junk statement of going back to one’s roots, which no one is doing right now.

      //Revive the tradition as much as you can, and that will rebuild the jathis, beyond matrimonial alliance..//

      That’s exactly what I’m asking. How will you revive the tradition in a large scale? What have the jaathi associations done to revive the tradition? How have they motivated their jaathi people to look back? First answer these fundamental questions without dodging it.

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        YOu are repeating the same questions that have no directions.. what do you expect individual jaths to do what has NOT been done by Hindutva organisation or the Hindu activists like you who are much more aware and have large network?

        The jathis on their part had formed their organisations, focussed on their traditions, facilitated matrimony within their jathi, conducted kula deiva pujas, and so many other things. many trading jathis like marwaris, vyshyas, etc have strong business inter-link through the jathi organisations..

        For eg, in TN, the Gomathi Chetty community has established series of marriage halls, and u can find this in the name Vasavi Mahal.. These serve as public space for NOT only their jathi but other jathis in their region..

        And all these are done by jathis, under a most brutal hostile condition, where they dont have any legal or constitutional or administrative recognition..

        If you want them to do more, lobby / fight against this evil colonial indian beurocracy, and get them the consitutional recognition.. If you cannot do that, then you cannot question them in any way..

        /** That’s exactly what I’m asking. How will you revive the tradition in a large scale?
        **/

        Instead of asking me, why dont you engage your own jathi associations, and find the answer?

        You cannot simply choose to be an observer and get all details thru internet and question people without doing any ground work..

        • vyas says:

          // what do you expect individual jaths to do what has NOT been done by Hindutva organisation or the Hindu activists like you who are much more aware and have large network?//

          When you are abandoning a particular system (Hindutva), you should not expect anything in return from it.

          //The jathis on their part had formed their organisations, focussed on their traditions, facilitated matrimony within their jathi, conducted kula deiva pujas, and so many other things. many trading jathis like marwaris, vyshyas, etc have strong business inter-link through the jathi organisations..//

          You are again not giving a straightforward answer to my question. All what you are talking about is just business relationships which will eventually be hijacked by globalization shortly. My question is, is any jaathi businessman ready to marry his son/daughter to another same jaathi member who is economically inferior? Marriages are the most important constructs for maintaining jaathi system. Are you not worried about the decay of this system? What resolution have your jaathi associations taken in this respect. Do you know how difficult it is to get brides in the same jaathi, despite sufficient availability of girls? What have your jaathi associations done to address this problem? Atleast in the Brahmin community during the times of Mahaperiyava, he took some measures to address this problem by encouraging marriages between Vaideeha Brahmin families and Loukeeka Brahmin families who were in senior positions like judges, doctors etc. It is only through such measures that one can save jaathis and not by stupid business relationships.

          //And all these are done by jathis, under a most brutal hostile condition, where they dont have any legal or constitutional or administrative recognition..//

          Do jaathi associations really need legal/constitutional recognition to tackle with the above mentioned problems? Pls don’t give lame reasons for hiding your incapability.

          //For eg, in TN, the Gomathi Chetty community has established series of marriage halls, and u can find this in the name Vasavi Mahal.. These serve as public space for NOT only their jathi but other jathis in their region..//

          First go and ask that same chettiar to get his son/daughter married to another economically inferior chettiar. That’s the only way to sustain jaathi systems. Building marriage halls will not serve any purpose.

          //If you want them to do more, lobby / fight against this evil colonial indian beurocracy, and get them the consitutional recognition.. If you cannot do that, then you cannot question them in any way..//

          You are trying to hide the real issues by simply putting all the blame on urbanization. Am I asking the jaathi association to do something that’s impossible? We need to first interrogate ourselves before finding a scape goat to put the blame on. Let’s first take economics out of jaathi marriages and then blame urbanization.

          • senthil says:

            /** When you are abandoning a particular system (Hindutva), you should not expect anything in return from it.
            **/

            I am not expecting.. u ask so many questions on jathi ridiculing and with contempt on it.. i am just asking the same question to you on hindutva.. or at your own personal level..

            Your comment is aimed to ridiculing me rather than open minded discussion.. instead of root-cause analysis, u are just blaming jathis and looking down upon it..

            so before you expect me to answer the question, just tell me why has your hindutva organisations NOT able to do this.. or why has Urban Hindus or dubashi brahmins NOT able to do it?

          • vyas says:

            //I am not expecting.. u ask so many questions on jathi ridiculing and with contempt on it.. i am just asking the same question to you on hindutva.. or at your own personal level.. //

            You are again dodging my questions without giving straightforward answers. When you ridicule the urban systems so badly, you should atleast be prepared to do self some analysis too, but you are not prepared to do it. You think jaathi systems are as pure as crystal and don’t want to take any amount of criticism. When someone talks anything negative about jaathi, you get violent. Why is that so? Are you beyond criticism?

            //Your comment is aimed to ridiculing me rather than open minded discussion.. instead of root-cause analysis, u are just blaming jathis and looking down upon it..//

            Yes, I do ridicule you for obvious reasons mentioned above. By the way when did I blame the jaathis? Why are you twisting my arguments? I only asked you what have these jaathi associations done to upkeep their jaathis? I raised some important questions about decisions on marriages by these jaathis which you are yet to answer.

            //so before you expect me to answer the question, just tell me why has your hindutva organisations NOT able to do this.. or why has Urban Hindus or dubashi brahmins NOT able to do it?//

            I have already told you several times in this forum, that Hindutva is a political ideology. It’s a system that’s required today to defend the onslaught of Abrahamic religions. It’s a system that depends on vote bank politics and obviously it will not focus on jaathis. It is Hindus who need to take up the job of safeguarding the jaathis. This is where jaathi associations have a very important role to play. My question is are they really doing it? Today I read an article in NDTV stating that the Khaps have approved inter-caste marriages. What are you going to say about this?

  27. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** You are again dodging my questions without giving straightforward answers **/

    Its you who are asking foolish questions.. you expect jathi organisation to be all perfect, but fumble when i ask the same for hindutva..

    /** You think jaathi systems are as pure as crystal and don’t want to take any amount of criticism. **/

    This is an example of how you are deviating from the core topic.. we are discussing about identities in which people associate and organise themselves.. you are talking about unrelated things, like purity of jathi, dharma of jathi and so on.. pls understand the purpose of this discussion..

    /** I only asked you what have these jaathi associations done to upkeep their jaathis? I raised some important questions about decisions on marriages by these jaathis which you are yet to answer.
    **/

    I replied you back, on what the jathi organisations had done so far.. u r not accepting those.. the marwaris had strong network of their jathi people, so that they were able to protect their business.. this is a core and most important strenghts of jathi organisation..

    Regarding marriages, when the urban morons had unleashed & thrusted western class based economic system , how can you expect jathi to be utopian and ideal? it is true, the class system has entered within the jathi, but it is not their fault.. their occupation was destroyed by the urban colonial beurocracy..

    Instead of seeing jathi organisation as one of the strengths of our society, u r seeing it with contempt.. self-destructive attitude..

    /** I have already told you several times in this forum, that Hindutva is a political ideology. It’s a system that’s required today to defend the onslaught of Abrahamic religions.
    **/

    Please stop this F***ing moronic argument, which is being promoted by those hindutva rascals.. in the past 60 years, they havent plucked even a single hair politically, economically or religiously.. i am getting really frustrated when i see such arguments, particularly after i started seeing the traditional institutions dying before my eyes..

    /** It’s a system that depends on vote bank politics and obviously it will not focus on jaathis. It is Hindus who need to take up the job of safeguarding the jaathis
    **/

    this is pointless vague argument by you.. u r saying hindutva is diff from hindus..

    if the hindutva is NOT going to support jathi, then they should be dismantled and let them go to hell..

    /** Today I read an article in NDTV stating that the Khaps have approved inter-caste marriages. What are you going to say about this?
    **/

    WHen you still believe NDTV , i have no other words to say.. you are sitting in some remote area, and just framing opinions based on these infos.. its you who have to introspect..

    I have asked you, whether you have done any real ground work.. it would be better, if we debate based on our experiences, rather than opinions.. bcoz, many times, when i share my experiences, people ridicule with their stereotyped opinions..

    • vyas says:

      //Its you who are asking foolish questions.. you expect jathi organisation to be all perfect, but fumble when i ask the same for hindutva..//

      Who is asking foolish questions my dear? You are unable to defend the stupidity of the jaathi associations which is why fumbling on me. One can be a supporter of jaathis but should not be obsessed with it. You are nothing but an example of a jaathi extremist.

      //Instead of seeing jathi organisation as one of the strengths of our society, u r seeing it with contempt.. self-destructive attitude..//

      I’m only asking what have these jaathi associations done to strengthen the jaathis themselves. When I ask this, you are quoting some stupid example of marwaris. How many jaathis can be like them? Not all jaathis are business centric to follow that approach. Talk something practical. Don’t be obsessed. Let the jaathi associations take necessary steps to de-economize themselves and then we’ll see how to move forward.

      //Regarding marriages, when the urban morons had unleashed & thrusted western class based economic system , how can you expect jathi to be utopian and ideal? it is true, the class system has entered within the jathi, but it is not their fault.. their occupation was destroyed by the urban colonial beurocracy.. //

      How long are you going to keep repeating this f***g statement? You are doing grave injustice to jaathis by doing so. It is the sheer arrogance of people like you that is leading to the demise of jaathis.

      //Please stop this F***ing moronic argument, which is being promoted by those hindutva rascals.. in the past 60 years, they havent plucked even a single hair politically, economically or religiously.. i am getting really frustrated when i see such arguments, particularly after i started seeing the traditional institutions dying before my eyes..//

      Stop your non-sensical comments. Hindutva is a necessary evil. Period. Without it, a majority of us would have been converted in a setup like that of “Post British India”. Morons like you have absolutely no authority to talk about Hindutva. When you stupids could not prevent your own relative from being converted, what moral rights do you have to blame Hindutva.

      //WHen you still believe NDTV , i have no other words to say.. you are sitting in some remote area, and just framing opinions based on these infos.. its you who have to introspect.. //

      You are proving yourself to be an idiot again. I quoted NDTV only for a reference. The news I mentioned is true. It has made the headline in many news papers. Dare the Khaps to deny it if it’s not true. I’m giving the links of TOI article regarding the same.

      http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Haryanas-biggest-khap-panchayat-scripts-history-allows-inter-caste-marriages/articleshow/34016585.cms

  28. senthil says:

    /** How long are you going to keep repeating this f***g statement? You are doing grave injustice to jaathis by doing so. It is the sheer arrogance of people like you that is leading to the demise of jaathis.
    **/

    how long?? as long as you answer this question.. how can you expect the jathis to survive, when your urban india had been destroying every bit of it? Your urban india has criminalised jathi to the extreme level, and every government machinery is hostile to jathi.. every laws is hostile to jathis..

    Just answer this question before throwing allegations on jathi..

    The fact that jathi had managed to survive and organise itself inspite of this extreme brutal backstabbing by the urban india, itself is one of its strength..

    • vyas says:

      // Your urban india has criminalised jathi to the extreme level, and every government machinery is hostile to jathi.. every laws is hostile to jathis..//

      When did I deny this? Did I ever support the urban system or deny it’s effect on jaathis? But that’s a different issue altogether. Jaathi rights is the only way to strengthen jaathis at the sociopolitical level. This cannot be done without amending the constitution which again involves political intervention. Now, tell me which political party or movement is ready to do this? Only Hindutva has the potential to do it – whether they do it or not is a different story. No other party will come forward to do it unless the jaathi associations join hands together and form a big vote bank and push the political parties to amend the changes. I believe you’d agree whatever I mentioned above.

      Now, let’s look at the cultural aspects of Jaathi. This is probably the most important one. You yourself will agree to the fact that if Jaathi as a construct is standing strong for thousands of years, it is because of social institution called Marriage. What has the jaathi associations done to safeguard declining intra-caste marriages? Have they passed any resolutions to encourage economically wealthy jaathi families to accept brides from poor families of same jaathis? Are they really concerned about the ever growing demand for girls in every community despite plenty of them available? Have they passed any resolution to keep their children from urban education systems? Almost every son/daughter of wealthy jaathi members are sent abroad for their education and most of them never return to India. Do you really need political powers for solving these issues I mentioned above?

      //The fact that jathi had managed to survive and organise itself inspite of this extreme brutal backstabbing by the urban india, itself is one of its strength..//

      How long are you going to keep saying this and keep cheating yourself? It’s high time we should start seeing within rather than keep blaming urban morons for everything.

      • senthil says:

        /** When did I deny this? Did I ever support the urban system or deny it’s effect on jaathis? But that’s a different issue altogether.
        **/

        If you accept this, then u have answer how the jathis be expected to be ideal under such brutal attacks.. culture and tradition needs positive and supportive environment to thrive.. when that supportive system is lost, everyone goes in to survival mode.. its true for individuals too..

        Today jathis are in survival mode and some how they have organised themselves and retained their core structure.. now if their traditional rights over their land and resources are restored, and if they are allowed to live as commune in one area, and if their kula gotra structure and matrimonial practices are legally approved, and if the jathi panchayat is allowed to function without any assault, then these jathis will be able to restore their culture, tradition and dharma..

        you are ignoring these practical issues, and want jathi to be some kind of super man..

        /** Do you really need political powers for solving these issues I mentioned above? **/

        Yes.. any organisation needs legal recognition to function.. so as jathis.. when a village is broken down and merged in to metros, this decision is taken by urban indian government.. they never care about the village setup or the jathi setup.. and the villages and jathis are not able to protest against this, because they are not legally recognised.. they were aliens to the indian govt.. if they go to court, they cannot get any justice, because the rights of villages, or their historic rights over their villages were not part of law.. the court can only pass judgement (NOT justice) only based on what is written in legal books.. NOT on consciousness..

        for eg, our kula deiva temple was taken over by HRCE, and we approached court, and said that it belongs to only our gothra.. but the court says that these are NOT legally valid and said that they recognise only private temples, religiously denominated temples and public temples.. what can you do? we lost the control of our kula temple to govt, and we lost one of our public resources.. as such, our people who live in diverse areas, are not able to come together for temple festivals.. and this collectivity fades away and everyone became individuals..

        i want you to think about all these practical issues instead of making allegations like a communists..

        the strength of the society lies in their ability to consolidate.. the indian govt allows a religious group to consolidate themselves (in the name of minority ), whereas, does not allow any of the jathis to consolidate.. it allows a muslim to start an education institution specifically for their people, so that their people stays together.. whereas, it doesnt allow a jathi to start a school specially for their jathi people.. thus NOT allowing the jathi people to consolidate..

        students in every jathi is forced to spend in common education system for 20 years, for the whole day.. there is no time for them to spend with their co-jathi students and collectively practice their culture.. thus they are mentally deracinated, and moulded in to capitalistic system.. the jathi collectiveness is destroyed and people are individualised..

      • senthil says:

        /** It’s high time we should start seeing within rather than keep blaming urban morons for everything. **/

        you simply has not come out of this anti-brahminism phobia.. i clearly said that we need social re-organisation, where vaideeha brahmins should be separated socially from dubashis, and each should take their own role..

        vaideeha brahmins should preserve the tradition, and dubashis should become protective cover for vaideeha brahmins, (and also others) by developing capability to face intellectual onslaught of the modern globalised capitalistic world.. they have to remodel their social structure, rituals, practices, to suit their new role.. and if their new role makes them disqualified to learn vedas, they should accept that too and desist from learning vedas.. that is the real care and commitment we have for our dharma..

        and dont drag non-brahmin community here..

      • senthil says:

        /** Almost every son/daughter of wealthy jaathi members are sent abroad for their education and most of them never return to India.
        **/

        Instead of blaming jathi for this, you need to understand the root causes..

        the reason why people are moving out of india is the economic colonisation .. the global capitalists has crafted this economic system in such a way that dollar is made as prime currency, and all other currency has to be devalued for it.. if we break this economic colonisation, everything will set right..

        if a situation comes where one dollar = one rupee, people will never want to go abroad..

  29. vyas says:

    //If you accept this, then u have answer how the jathis be expected to be ideal under such brutal attacks.. culture and tradition needs positive and supportive environment to thrive.. when that supportive system is lost, everyone goes in to survival mode.. its true for individuals too..//

    If you ask so, then you cannot blame the urbanites too. They have their own justification for what they do too. Every politician has his own story for justifying his loot. Will you accept it??? The people involved in 2G scams have their own valid justifications for all their deeds. Can we stop punishing them? Your support for jaathi has lately become an obsession which is neither good for you nor the jaathi system as a whole. You should argue constructively rather than blindly supporting your favorites.

    //now if their traditional rights over their land and resources are restored, and if they are allowed to live as commune in one area, and if their kula gotra structure and matrimonial practices are legally approved, and if the jathi panchayat is allowed to function without any assault, then these jathis will be able to restore their culture, tradition and dharma..//

    I don’t deny any of the above arguments. All these have to be done asap without a doubt. But that requires strong leadership and extensive constitutional changes which will take time. It took us nearly 50yrs to recognize the importance of participatory democracy when all these years we had been following only vote bank democracy which is akin to irresponsible outsourcing . Participatory democracy is probably the first step towards restoring ancient governance model. Like this, jaathi or community rights also needs to be incorporated into the constitution. My only regret is that neither these jaathi associations nor the jaathi leaders have taken any significant steps towards it neither in the past nor the present.

    //you are ignoring these practical issues, and want jathi to be some kind of super man..//

    I’m only asking the jaathi associations to do only what’s possible and not expecting anything extraordinary from them. It is the sheer arrogance of people like you who could not take one pinch of criticism is probably wiping jaathis completely off of the society. Tell me something very frankly. Everyone knows that jaathi systems have been under the onslaught of urban morons for the past few decades. What have these jaathi leaders done to tackle them? How many of these jaathi leaders have the intellectual prowessness to counter the urban morons in television and media? I’ve seen several jaathi leaders participating in tv shows simply could not counter the social activists and other DK members on their questions to them about jaathis and it’s need in modern times. How will the younger generation be motivated about their jaathis when such things are happening? What steps have these jaathi associations taken to resolve this? As I already mentioned before, I don’t see anybody defending jaathis aggressively on the social media barring just you in the past 5 years. I’m yet to see any movement launched by jaathi associations to safeguard the rights of jaathis as a whole. Unless the jaathi organizations join hands and come forward together to counter the globalized media, there is going to be absolutely no solution for this whatsoever.

    //the strength of the society lies in their ability to consolidate.. the indian govt allows a religious group to consolidate themselves (in the name of minority ), whereas, does not allow any of the jathis to consolidate.. it allows a muslim to start an education institution specifically for their people, so that their people stays together.. whereas, it doesnt allow a jathi to start a school specially for their jathi people.. thus NOT allowing the jathi people to consolidate..//

    All this is because “Jaathis” are not yet a constitutionally recognized entity. Changing that will only resolve the issues you mentioned. Also you are wrong about your comments about minorities. The chidambaram dikshithars were indeed accepted as minorities (in fact micro-minorities) by the Supreme court, without which the temple would not have been freed from the clutches of the TN govt. The real point is that one needs to carefully interpret the constitution and build a strong case for each of such issues. Your kula deiva temple issue could have also been resolved by using tactics like this, but I certainly understand that it’s practically not possible for every jaathi and every temple.

    //for eg, our kula deiva temple was taken over by HRCE, and we approached court, and said that it belongs to only our gothra.. but the court says that these are NOT legally valid and said that they recognise only private temples, religiously denominated temples and public temples.. what can you do? we lost the control of our kula temple to govt, and we lost one of our public resources.. as such, our people who live in diverse areas, are not able to come together for temple festivals.. and this collectivity fades away and everyone became individuals..//

    I can’t comment in detail without knowing much facts about this specific case, but in my opinion this is merely a technical issue which is a flaw in demarcating public vs private. The only solution is to remove religious institutions from the clutches of the govt. They simply have no rights to interfere into such matters.

    //you simply has not come out of this anti-brahminism phobia//

    That’s simply your perception. I’m tired of keeping on denying it.

    // i clearly said that we need social re-organisation, where vaideeha brahmins should be separated socially from dubashis, and each should take their own role..//

    This is already being carried out in many places to a certain extent. While you can separate Vaideeha and dubashi Brahmins from a varna perspective, you simply cannot do that at the Jaathi level. I’m an iyer by birth. You can deprive me of my Varna (Brahmin) but you simply cannot do so to my jaathi. My jaathi identity will remain forever with me until my death. Since the Vaideeha Brahmins also belong to same jaathis as that of dubashi Brahmins, there will always be an association between the two groups in some way or the other, which simply cannot be avoided.

    //the reason why people are moving out of india is the economic colonisation .. the global capitalists has crafted this economic system in such a way that dollar is made as prime currency, and all other currency has to be devalued for it.. if we break this economic colonisation, everything will set right..//

    The urbanites are also quoting similar reasons for destruction of jaathis. Will you accept it?

    //if a situation comes where one dollar = one rupee, people will never want to go abroad..//

    This is a junk argument. If dollar gets depreciated that bad then some other currency will become high and people will move towards that. The point is not about dollar/rupee. It’s all about opportunities. If you can create that here, people will stay here, if not, they’ll go out. The only reason I brought this point in context with sons/daughters of jaathi supporters was to emphasize the fact that they are no different than urbanites in this aspect. If every jaathi supporter has enough money and resources to study abroad, they’ll certainly do so like every other urbanite.

    • senthil says:

      @vyas,

      again you are making theoritical comments.. please look at your own comment.. there is no concrete solution nor analysis of the problem.. you are making weird opinions based on your limited exposure to ground realities..

      i can reply to each of your comment, but it will endlessly drag the argument.. rather than that, i want you to provide constructive solution for the problems which you accept and acknowledge.. we will continue our debate from that..

      so far i proposed my solution and you are ridiculing it.. now i ask you to provide REALISTIC solutions which you feel will solve the problem..

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – May I know what realistic solution that you proposed? You are totally confusing social/political and cultural aspects of Jaathis. The cultural aspect of jaathi has been well preserved (to a larger extent) in the last few centuries, but that has started to erode in the past 50 years or so due to constant abuse of Jaathis and encouragement of inter-caste marriages. It is the sociopolitical aspect of jaathis that’s completely gone. In my opinion none of the jaathi associations have done anything proactive to intellectually counter the western universalism. There may be umpteen number of reasons behind that, but the fact is that it has simply not been done. Period. The most worrisome part is it’s not being done even today. Don’t keep blaming me for criticizing jaathi associations. More than you, I want jaathi system to survive which is why I’m constantly pontificating this matter. Here are the solutions I propose.

        1. Every jaathi should appoint an intellectual defense like YOU which should be prepared to defend itself from urban and media onslaught.

        2. Every jaathi should come together to pass a resolution thereby asking for a ban from treating Hinduism as a singular religion similar to that of Christianity.

        3. Every jaathi should work hard to obtain minority status under the shadow of Hinduism in the constitution.

        4. A nationwide Jaathi rights protection movement should be formed which should keep pushing politicians to pass resolutions in line with Jaathi rights and make amendments in the constitution.

        5. The above group should frequently conduct nationwide campaigns on social media and televisions to educate future generations on jaathi based lifestyle. I care a damn about people who don’t to follow their jaathi. They can always form a group for themselves and live inside that.

        Now, tell me. Has any of our jaathi associations worked on doing atleast one of the above? Without doing any these fundamental things how do you expect jaathis to survive? Today the likes of media and social activists are able to vehemently oppose jaathis because the constitution is favorable to them. Unless we bring changes at the fundamental level we are bound to lose jaathis within a century. If you can’t take even this amount of criticism to save something that’s precious for us, there is no point in debating further.

        • senthil says:

          @Vyas,

          What you are doing is NOT criticism.. but ridicule and allegations.. you are criticising and making allegations just because the jathi associations did not do what you imagined them to do.. you dont think practically, and pragmatically..

          You first try to bring together your own jathi and then speak.. the real world is NOT same as the illusionary world we are living in.. majority of people are pre-occupied with their daily survival.. they dont have the luxury of you and me to think strategically and share opinions.. and those wealthy people who have this luxury are busy enjoying their life, with the new found money they have..

          /** Has any of our jaathi associations worked on doing atleast one of the above? **/

          They do not do any of the things you said.. and that’s why we are discussing here.. if everything happens according to your imaginations, there will be no problems.. but that did not happen and wont happen.. we have to accept that reality and think from this practical perspective..

          You need to work at ground level , interact with different people and only then you can understand the reality.. without this field experience, your suggestions and opinions will be always theoritical..

          So the next time you come to india, plan for a field work, which might require strenous effort on your part.. are you ready for that?

          • vyas says:

            // you are criticising and making allegations just because the jathi associations did not do what you imagined them to do.. you dont think practically, and pragmatically..//

            I’m only asking them to do what’s practical in order for them to survive for centuries to come.If you think what I mentioned is not appropriate then let them come up with their own agenda to safeguard their jaathis. My point is that whatever they have done until now has not done anything to help them prosper. The jaathi associations completely lack intellectual vigor. Period.

            //You first try to bring together your own jathi and then speak.. //

            When I talk of jaathis in general, that includes my jaathi too. All jaathis are equal in my condemnation. They lack the intellectual prowessness needed to safeguard themselves in changing times.

            // majority of people are pre-occupied with their daily survival//

            If that is so, then why did they in the first place start a jaathi association? Since they were too busy, they could have refrained from doing this too right? Pls don’t give stupid answers just for the sake of defense.

            //they dont have the luxury of you and me to think strategically and share opinions//

            This is what I’m saying right from the beginning. They should have worked on building intellectual base atleast a few decades ago. It’s not too later, they can do it even now. But I don’t see any trace of doing it until this very moment. This is where I’m expecting a change.

            //They do not do any of the things you said.. and that’s why we are discussing here.. //

            All I’m saying is that this is just not enough. They are the people who are directly affected and it is they who need to come out in the open and speak for themselves.

            //You need to work at ground level , interact with different people and only then you can understand the reality.. //

            Tell me atleast what the reality is. Can I assume jaathis are hale and healthy without any issues at all? If not why are we even having this discussion?

            //Now you have made list of suggestions, can you pls tell me on feasibility of your suggestions and practicability of its implementation.. ? ie, how do you expect to implement your suggestion..//

            Let’s discuss that out in a separate article. I’m not saying that whatever suggestions that I made are completely accurate, but I can say for sure that Jaathis need constitutional support to continue it’s way. Today pluralism is only seen at the linguistic or religious level. It has to be extended to jaathis as well. All this needs a political solution, else they’ll fade out in the long run. To give you an analogy, the DK groups back in the past did not like the Hindu way of performing marriages. They then worked hard to seek out a political solution by introducing additional clauses in the Hindu marriage act. This has now become a part of our constitution. Nobody can now prevent them from marrying based on this approach. This is what jaathis need to do too. The first step towards that is to keep emphasizing the fact that Hinduism is nothing but a religion of religions and work towards that direction. Likes of Ambedkar defined Hinduism from a British perspective, which is why he couldn’t see the pluralism within. Moreover since he was a staunch hater of jaathis, he never created any space for implementing jaathi rights in the constitution.

        • senthil says:

          Now you have made list of suggestions, can you pls tell me on feasibility of your suggestions and practicability of its implementation.. ? ie, how do you expect to implement your suggestion..

  30. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** This is what I’m saying right from the beginning. They should have worked on building intellectual base atleast a few decades ago It’s not too later, they can do it even now. But I don’t see any trace of doing it until this very moment. This is where I’m expecting a change.
    **/

    Why cant you start with your own jathi?

    • vyas says:

      There are already efforts going on with it. The biggest challenge we face today (as with every other jaathi) is to inter-marry within ourselves. All our girls have become highly educated and have almost become individualized and don’t want to marry a boy who is less educated or economically inferior. Adding fuel to fire, almost 20-30% marriages in our jaathi is right now love marriages. Many boys are simply frustrated and either decide not to marry at all or start opting for love marriages.

      • senthil says:

        this is what is happening in many other jathis who have embraced this macaulay education.. and still most hindu idiots want to expand this destructive education to nooks and corners of the country.. Modis Gujarat has exactly done this..

        We have to deal with these practical issues that exists today instead of complaining “WHy jathi organisation is not like this or that”.. i can discuss with you off the line privately, about these issues..

        • vyas says:

          How long will you keep giving these lame reasons? Every era has it’s own sets of problems and solutions for the same. We should learn to be smart enough to tackle the same. Now that almost every jaathi association has understood the crux of the problem, at least from now on they should start working smarter to eliminate the enemy.

          • senthil says:

            you have to consider the generational shift in each of the community.. at present it is the old generation who is controlling the affairs.. just now the youths have realised the importance of their traditon and moving towards their jathi.. 5 years before, even i did not have the clarity i had now.. and most other people are still in a state where i was 5 years before, unable to comprehend what jathi is..

            So i am repeatedly stressing you that there is NO purpose or use in abusing jathi for NOT being as you imagined..

            i dont know how old are you.. but it is the next generation who has to take the mantle.. it will take some time..

            as i told u already, if you are really interested in ground work, let me know..

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