Telengana – the continuing debate

My previous article on telengana had evoked a mixed response from lot of people.  I am compiling all my responses in this post.

Lakshman’s counter article:

Lakshman PST has written a detailed article opposing my concept of separate telengana.  Although this needs a detailed answer, i am giving a short response here.

He has provided some details about social composition of andhra.  But he made a self goal in his article.  Because, his listing of Niyogi Brahmins itself, supports my point that telengana was a separate cultural region.  Have a look at his statement.

We have marriage alliances with all Niyogi jaatis of the state like Golkonda Vyaapaarulu, Telaganya Niyogi, KaranaKamma Niyogi, Velanati Niyogi, Pakanati Niyogi, Dravida Niyogi etc.

There is a separate caste called Telangana Niyogi, which means, those Niyogi community who hails from Telengana Region.  This itself is a proof for  telengana.

Many other points raised by him are important but requires detailed analysis.  If time permits, will post my detailed response in future.

Response to @Nyaya:

Commenter @nyaya was vigorously opposing my article, based on his “United Andhra” concept.  He was dragging so many issues like language, urduisation, conversion, mini-pakistan, and many other issues.  Let me deal with those issues here.

Telengana – a separate dhesam from mahabharatha times:

I gave the following links on mahabharatha that refer telengana in different names.  In Bhisma Parva, the dhesams of bharatha varsha is listed down.  In that, the talavahanas were mentioned as people living b/w andhra and kalinga.

There is only one speculative refernece to Telingas in the epic Mahabharata. During the southern millitary campaign of the Pandava general Sahadeva he is mentioned as defeating a tribe called Talavanas, between Andhras and Kalingas. This reference is belived to be of the Telingas.

The main contention of @nyaya is that how can we take talavahanas as Telinga, as the name is NOT used.

My point is that the location of Talavahanas match the Telengana region as existing today. Look at the map below.

Telangana-Map

Uttara Andhra is Kalinga Dhesam:

@nyaya doesnt accept that uttara andhra is kalinga.  In turn he says that Orissa is the kalinga dhesam.   He did not give any logical reason NOR any substantiation.

Orissa was originally the Odra dhesa, and is self evident from the website of Orissa government.  Pls refer the below links.

http://orissa.gov.in/e-magazine/Orissareview/2008/april-2008/engpdf/25-26.pdf

Origin of Name of Orissa

I am reproducing the Quote from the above links.

In the Mahabharata the Odras are mentioned along with the Paundras, Utkals, Mekalas, Kalingas and Andhras, while according to Manu the Odras are associated with the Paundrakas, Dravidas, Kambojas, Yavanas, Sakas, Paradas, Pallhavas, Chinas, Kiratas and Khasas.

So it is very clear that kalinga dhesa is different from Odra Dhesa from above.  Also, why should Kalinga dhesa be named “Orissa”?

In our areas, there is a separate caste called “Oddars”.  The very name itself denotes their ethnic roots.

The current linguistic state was created by Britishers in 1936.  Why should we take this colonial creation of orissa as legimate?

The reality is that the southern part of orissa and northern part of andhra (called Uttara andhra), and few border areas of chatisgarh state constitute kalinga dhesam.  The Northern Orissa is the actual Odra Dhesam.

If @nyaya doesnt agree this, he should substantiate with appropriate logical reasoning or facts.  Blunt denial is not a right way.

Culture vs Kulachar

My contention is that the term “culture” comes from our indic root “Kulachar” (as of now, i could not find any material to substantiate.  Willing to change if proved wrong ).

Kulachar means the strict life code of a particular “Kulam” (or Jathi).  The classical meaning of the term “culture” also more or less meant the same.  However, the usage became changed in later days, where culture was used to denote all type of fancy things.

The Urban Indians, educated in western system, sees our culture as some thing fancy and fashion, and see it in a cinematic way.  For them, culture is about delicious foods, colourful dress, joyous festival, and all other aspects of “Loukika Life”.

Whereas in traditional bharath, KulaChara means the jathi restriction, dos and donts.  So every jathi had their own “Acharam” to follow, according to the area they live in and the occupation they do.

For eg, a brahmin, who has to do vedic rites, has to maintain highest acharams..  whereas a farmer has some relaxation.  A leather working community, may not be able follow the “acharam” of other communities, but have their own set of acharams.

This is what our original value system was.

This extreme difference of perception of culture, has led to distorted understanding of our history and society.

@nyaya and @surya, do not accept my contention and in turn say “Culture” means “Samskriti”.  Whereas my stand is that Samskrit means Refined, and NOT cultured.  It is the Kulachara that can be equated to culture.

Is Language More Important Than culture?

@nyaya says Language is a medium where people understand their culture and hence it is more important.

Whereas my stance is that our “Kulachara” is based on what people follow in their life and NOT based on reading of any textbook.  Language is used by different jathis of our society for mere communication, and NOT for any intellectual work.  Since every jathi occupation was hereditary, people learn their occupation by practice and NOT from classrooms (as it happens today).  Hence importance of language was secondary.

Language was needed to impart “Neethi” and NOT “acharam”.  For eg, my grandfather was taught about “Neethi” in schools, while he acquired achara from family tradition.

The reason why @nyaya feels language is important is because of his westernised perception of Fanciful “Culture”.  This is the problem with most urban indians, who are stripped of their “Kula Acharams” by macaulay education.

Does small states means Mini-Pakistan??

@nyaya says that telengana will lead to Muslims getting more powerful. Let us look at the demographics of Current United Andhra & Separate Telengana

Muslim Population in Current United Andhra Pradesh = 9.2 %  (88.88% Hindu )

Muslim population in Separate Telengana = 12.4 % (84% Hindu ).

There is not much change in Demography due to creation of Telengana.

However, the power of muslims will be drastically reduced in telengana state because of the native telengana people will regain their dominance and ownership of polity, economy and land.   To understand how this will happen, we need to understand the relation b/w social network of people and their geographical coverage.

In traditional bharathiya society, the matrimonial alliance was done based on geography and Kulam.  So people settling in different dhesams marry only within the geographical boundaries and among their jathi.  Even 20 years before, people will not give brides across rivers, for variety of reasons.   Even today, those who work in IT sector still chooses bride/groom only from their native areas.

Considering this angle, the social network thru matrimonial relations are confined within the cultural regions (andhra, seema,  telengana and kalinga).  In United Andhra state, none of these four different social groups would be able to dominate the polity or economy. There will be a stalemate.  The muslim and christians will derive their power ONLY in such stalemate, where by shifting their small vote bloc to political parties, they derive dis-proportional leverage.

Whereas, if we divide the state in to four, each region will be dominated by their own native people, and will be able to assert their historical ownership and rights.  The power & influence of muslims and christians will be reduced against the collective cultural consolidation of native people.

Will telengana lead to Christian Domination?

The population of Christians in telengana is very negligible. (again another proof on how christianity wont work in traditional society).  Although officially christians in andhra are said to be 1.5%, in reality they may be around 10-18%, due to large scale conversions in past 10 years.

@nyaya is saying christians will get more powerful if we divide large state in to smaller ones.  But in reality, it is in the United Andhra pradesh, the christian conversion was at highest.  He doesnt answer this point, which was raised by @vyasa too.

The issue was NOT about bigger or smaller states.  The issue was about centralisation of power.  In current United AP, all the control was wrested with Hyderabad, and all the four cultural regions, were powerless, and every decision was taken at the capital.  So the christians who were able to capture the power thru YSR (& Congress ) were able to acquire unlimited power and destroy all four regions.

Whereas if we had smaller states, even if christians capture one region, the other three regions will be spared.

The main anti-dote to christian assault is decentralisation of power.  My stance is that even in separate telengana, the power should be decentralised based on our ancient native administrative systems.

Come out of Christian and Muslim Phobias:

Most of the arguments by @nyaya is based on fear psychosis of “Christian & Muslim Domination”.  His argument goes like this – “If we do this, muslims will get powerful.  If we do that, christians will get powerful”.  This is nothing but Phobia out of imagination of fear (the fear may be real or apparent).  We cannot fight a war, if we shiver just by thought of it.

The Urban Indians are plagued by this Abrahamo-Phobias, because they are struggling with an identity crisis.  Most urban hindus are atomised individuals, working in some corporate companies.  They dont have any ownership of the resources in urban centers, NOR do they have any collective conscience.   Also they are totally dis-connected from the traditional society of bharath.   In such situation, their phobias are understandable.

Our thinking and planning should be based on our own strengths and weaknesses.  If we are always obsessed with what enemy is doing, our defeat would be certain.  While we should be aware of enemy’s strengths & moves, our actions and strategy should be based on our own capabilities.

My strategy is that by splitting Andhra pradhesh in to 4 regions, we would be saving majority of areas by isolating influence of christians to particular region.   Even in that particular region, the local consolidation of native hindu population (based on culture)  will be an effective checkmate.  (For eg, in goa, eventhough christians are majority, they could not fully dominate).

Instead of whining out of phobias, we have to play our own game, and wage our own battle.  Fearing about losses are cowardly.

Secularism will die a natural death in Cultural States:

Another important point to note is that secularism will become obsolete and meaningless in telengana (or in any cultural states).  Because the secular & liberal morons will not have any place in cultural regions.  So far, these people were able to control their discourse, through the centralised state machinery, by enacting laws against our society, and also by using the centralised police force.  They would not be able to do that any more.  Secularism always had effect ONLY in metros where the power was concentrated and among uprooted urban populations.

———————————————

I have consolidated all my responses in this article.  Would like to know the responses of the readers.

This entry was posted in bharath, caste system, Culture, History, Religion and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

169 Responses to Telengana – the continuing debate

  1. nyaya says:

    Senthil’s response barely even began to respond to Lakshman’s post, but I will give the requisite courtesy to Lakshman by allowing him first shot at rebuttal. I will instead focus on points addressed to me (links will follow in subsequent response):

    1. I have vigorously contested Senthil’s premise because it was poorly researched and poorly thought out. Different historical eras are being conflated together. In short, static solution is being force fed to problem.

    2. Talavahanas-for the millionth time Senthil has ignored what I have actually said and answered against what he wanted me to say. I said Senthil’s own map which he used for evidence said this about Talavahanas: “There is only speculative refernece [sic] to telingas”. So Senthil’s own map says it is purely speculative. But Senthil pretends this is concrete proof.

    3. Senthil himself said his “Telinga”-Telangana-Talavahana map was ‘inaccurate”. So he is selectively using this map where it speculatively supports him (telinga) but rejects it where it disproves him (kalinga).

    4. Kalinga is not uttarandhra–any class 2 student knows this. Ganjam district was divided at independence with telugu areas going to AP and non-telugu to Orissa. Kalinga was coastal Orissa. Gajapatis invaded it–Vijayanagara took it back. It was later ruled by Telugu speaking Suryvanshis (Pusapatis of Vizianagaram).

    Senthil says no proof and that orissa was odhra desam–THIS IS INCORRECT. Odhra desam only 1 part of orissa and gave it’s name to orissa/odisha.

    Since wikipedia (wiki derived sites) is his favorite source. I have given link in second comment, here is proof:

    “Kalinga (Oriya: କଳିଙ୍ଗ, Devnagari: कलिङ्ग,Telugu: కళింగ) was an early republic founded in central-eastern India in 1200BC, which comprised most of the modern state of Odisha.[1]”

    The region which comprises the modern-day Orissa was not known by the same name throughout history. It and parts of it were referred by different names in different era.
    Kalinga: According to some scriptures (Mahabharata and some Puranas), a king Bali, the Vairocana, the son of Sutapa, had no sons. So, he requested the sage, Dirghatamas, to bless him with sons. The sage is said to have begotten five sons through his wife, the queen Sudesna.[2] The princes were named Anga, Vanga, Kalinga, Sumha and Pundra.[3][4] ”

    Thus along with utkala and odhra, kalinga is yet another historical name for Orissa–as Telangi is for Telugus. Andhras and Telugus are same people and Andhras gave name to Telugu people.

    From Odisha.gov site (link to follow):

    261 BC
    Orissa hazy past focuses with the fwar of Kalinga in which the people of Kalinga come into head on consion with Ashoka, the powerful mouryan emperor from Magadha.

    Entire history section of Orissa.gov is focused on Kalinga:

    “History of Odisha
    EARLY HISTORY
    Kalinga is known to be a powerful kingdom as early as the time of the Kurukshetra battle. Srutayudha, the king of the Kalinga joined the camp of the Kourava in the battle and was killed in the battle by Bhimasena with his two heroic sons: Bhanumana and Ketumana. After the Mahabharata War a new Kshetriya dynasty ruled over Kalinga and it is known from the Buddhist work ‘Mahagovinda Suttanta’ that the glory and power of Kalinga was restored within a short period. According to the Puranas 32 Kshetriya kings ruled over Kalinga after the Mahabharata War up to the time of Mahapadmananda who ascended the throne of Magadha in 362 B. C.”

    Even Senthil’s own questionable map shows Kalinga far away from Andhra and deep in Modern Orissa. But because facts don’t suit him here, he says that was inaccurate–no proof provided.

    5.”My point is that the location of Talavahanas match the Telengana region as existing today.”

    This is an illogical argument.Merely because there was a theorized ancient state which your own source treats as “speculative”) in one district doesn’t mean modern people are inheritors. Arguing that Telangana were Talavahana is like lying pakistanis who say they are inheritors of “Indus Valley Civilization”. Locations don’t translate to ethnicities.

    The fact remains, senthil doesn’t even know the origin of the word “Telangana”. Persian Turk invaders called Telugus speakers “Telangi”–hence ALL telugu country was “Telangana”. After fall of Vijayanagara, Andhra fell to Qutb Shahis and later Nizams. But Nizam gave up rayalaseema and coastal Andhra to French and then British. That is why people were separated.

    6.Culture vs Kulachar-Senthil’s contention is wrong. Origin of the word culture in his own source clearly states this: ” (Latin: cultura, lit. “cultivation”[1]) “. So senthil invents culture-kulachar connection. Here is what his own sources says about culture meaning (see link in next comment);

    “Aspects of human expression include both material culture and ephemeral elements. These include:Language and dialect, Science, Technology, Cuisine, Aesthetics – art, music, literature, fashion, and architecture, Values, ideology, Social conventions, including norms, taboos, and etiquette, Gender roles, Recreational activities such as festivals and holidays
    Commercial practices, Social structure, Religion”

    Thus, SENTHIL”S OWN SOURCE has language as very first aspect of culture, mentions art, cuisine, literature, etc, and has etiquette/taboos/social conventions as only parts of culture This is definitive proof of senthil’s sophistry. He is inventing meanings to suit his views just like he is inventing history to suit his views, just like he deleted comments to suit his views. This is called being over opinionated.

    7. “This is what our original value system was.”

    That is what senthil imagines it to be.

    Kulachar is only an aspect of Culture. Culture encompasses larger meaning, that is what samskriti is used. Thus caste/jati/varna only ONE aspect. Rural provincial types with no understanding of the world can’t see this distinction. They have a tunnel-visioned understanding of the past that suit their own views and political ambitions. That’s why they misinterpret roles of varnas: “i.e dominant jatis” not realizing brahmanas don’t dominate, they influence,educate, and inspire.

    8. Senthil says samskriti means “refined” so can’t be culture. But he contradicts himself without realizing–since literal meaning of culture/cultura is “cultivated”. Further more, samskrit refers to the language, samskriti refers to culture.

    9. “@nyaya says Language is a medium where people understand their culture and hence it is more important.”

    I NEVER said that “language is more important than culture”. Senthil should provide proof.

    I said language is culture (meaning language is an important part of culture and transmits culture)–and even Senthil admitted that language represents culture.

    “senthil says:
    October 31, 2013 at 10:35 pm
    Language represents the culture”

    10. “Language is used by different jathis of our society for mere communication, and NOT for any intellectual work. ”

    Language is the medium of communication of intellectual work. Unless senthil has cracked the code for telepathy, the language choice can matter. It is why pakistanis look to urdu and persian and north indian brahmins prefer shuddh hindi and sanskrit. Good luck doing sandhya in farsi!

    11.”There is not much change in Demography due to creation of Telengana.”

    There is some change, from under 10% to now over ten percent. Plus Owaisis have already started inviting bangladeshi muslim rohingya refugees to increase their numbers. Hyderabad has already become a den of anti-national jehadism. This will only increase in a state based on urdu speaking identity and history. Senthil conveniently ignores the fact that TRS people praise the same Nizam whose nobles would kidnap and rape brahmana women. Senthil doesn’t seem to have a problem with that.

    12.”However, the power of muslims will be drastically reduced in telengana state because of the native telengana people will regain their dominance and ownership of polity, economy and land. ”

    Who are native telangana people? They speak the telugu language. What is the alleged cultural difference? Senthil should answer this if he has the intestinal fortitude.

    Many coastal andhra people are nothing but refugees from Telangana. In fact vijayanagara founders are said to have escaped to karnataka from Telangana. Senthil doesn’t seem to understand concept of migration.

    13.”In United Andhra state, none of these four different social groups would be able to dominate the polity or economy.”

    Haha, this must be a joke. Entire basis for telangana is based on alleged coastal andhra domination.

    14.”Whereas, if we divide the state in to four, each region will be dominated by their own native people,”, : “The power & influence of muslims and christians will be reduced against the collective cultural consolidation of native people”

    No it means its easier for unified jehadis and evangelicals to divide and rule. Smaller regions are easier to digest. And regions can again be divided according to caste.

    15. Senthil failed to properly answer how he would counter caste politics which would happen even in separate Telangana.

    16.”@nyaya is saying christians will get more powerful if we divide large state in to smaller ones. But in reality, it is in the United Andhra pradesh, the christian conversion was at highest. He doesnt answer this point, which was raised by @vyasa too.”

    I did answer it– this is a blatant lie. Both you and vyas completely failed to answer it (see links below): I said, United Andhra conversion was highest because YSR was christian evangelist–he worked with sonia for conversions. What senthil fails to tell you is that muslim percentage higher in telangana.

    So bifurcation gives coastal andhra to missionaries and telangana to owaisis. That is the plan. So the problem was YSR and Congress–not United Andhra.

    17. ” The issue was about centralisation of power. In current United AP, all the control was wrested with Hyderabad, and all the four cultural regions, were powerless, and every decision was taken at the capital. So the christians who were able to capture the power thru YSR (& Congress ) were able to acquire unlimited power and destroy all four regions.”

    Telangana doesn’t change centralization problems. Only 2 separate states to exploit from Hyderabad–not one state that protects against water disputes.

    18.”My stance is that even in separate telengana, the power should be decentralised based on our ancient native administrative systems.”

    Senthil wants to fight modern war with ancient weapons made in villages. Unless senthil wants to become drona and fight chinese and pakistanis with brahmastra–this is foolish and impractical.

    Similarly, circumstances change populations. Hyderabadi islamic persian culture separated telugus in telangana from telugus in coastal andhra–senthil hasn’t responded to this fact.

    19.”This is nothing but Phobia out of imagination of fear (the fear may be real or apparent). We cannot fight a war, if we shiver just by thought of it.”

    Hilarious. Senthil’s own twitter feed is full of conspiracy theories. I am only speaking about reality of conversions–looks like senthil thinks there are no conversions, no atankwadi, and no pakistan. Speaking with urgency is not a phobia. Willful ignorance by senthil is the problem. Phobia term is also hilarious since senthil himself seems to be phobic to certain jatis having power or “dominating”. This is not mere phobia but bigotry.

    20.”NOR do they have any collective conscience.”

    Make up your mind. Do urbanites have phobias of abrahamics or no collective conscience? You are all over the place with no consistence logic. Fact is, urban people face maximum riots and terrorism. Easy for village rustics to lecture on faraway issues with no understanding only uninformed and stubbon opinions.

    21. “Instead of whining out of phobias, we have to play our own game, and wage our own battle. Fearing about losses are cowardly.”

    Whining about loss of jati dominance is foolishness. Hiding behind jatis to avoid fight in the cities is cowardly. Playing obscurantist to help in scheme of foreigners is treachery.

    22.”Secularism will die a natural death in Cultural States:”

    Senthil fails to realize that United Andhra IS the cultural state. Cultural state is being divided to form urdu hyderabad state to give to owaisis. Senthil apparently thinks Telugu brahmins can do sandhya in urdu/persian…

    23. “If @nyaya doesnt agree this, he should substantiate with appropriate logical reasoning or facts. Blunt denial is not a right way.”

    I have demonstrated through both, patiently and repeatedly. It is only senthil who uses pure turuska tactics to partially answer some points, to twist what was actually said, and then completely ignore entire remaining pts. This is not pure vedic, this is pure turuska.

    Here is the proof: Senthil AGAIN failed to address my point in his new post about Hyderabad state native Telangana Telugus calling their organization “nizam ANDHRA Mahasabha”. Thus, even telangana people called themselves Andhras.

    Turuska tactic. The fact is, this is the ultimate proof that telangi-telugu-andhra all one and the same. Telangana is merely longstanding scheme by hyderabadi jehadis like owaisi to split United AP. Divide and Rule. Surely even senthil can understand this easy concept.

    The fundamental problem is we have cowardly rustic provincials with no understanding of global politics thinking jati and kulachar alone will solve all problems. The fact is, they don’t understand Dharma properly or its principles and how varna-dharma is only 1 aspect.

    Fundamental problem in India is loss of morality because people are being told by media that sanatana dharma is bad and modern lifestyle and immorality is fashionable. Senthil has no solution for this–only robotic kulachar. This cart before horse. People need to identify with morality and dharma before they can even take interest in kulachar. As usual, Senthil ignores this reality despite it being common sense.

    As he has failed to address my point about Nizam Andhra Mahasabha, Senthil has failed to make an honest case for Telangana. Partial facts and twisted quotations are not the way to educate readers.

  2. nyaya says:

    Comment 2/2 for Links:

    Talavahanas are Not Telanganas

    Senthil’s OWN link shows it was speculative—and therefore—unlikely and inaccurate:

    http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/telinga

    “References in Mahabharata
    There is only one speculative refernece to Telingas in the epic Mahabharata. “

    Orissa-Kalinga-Oddhra all part of same cultural region. Oddhra tribe gave Orissa name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Odisha#Historical_names_of_Orissa

    Kalinga, utkala, oddhra all names for Odisha/Orissa

    http://www.odisha.gov.in/portal/ViewDetails.asp?vchglinkid=GL012&vchplinkid=PL048&vchslinkid=SL014

    Orissa people most proud of Kalinga–even gov site focuses on Kalinga

    http://www.odisha.gov.in/portal/ViewDetails.asp?vchglinkid=GL012&vchplinkid=PL048

    http://www.odisha.gov.in/portal/ViewDetails.asp?vchglinkid=GL012&vchplinkid=PL047

    Culture is not same as kulachar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture#Etymology

    Senthil accidentally agreeing to my point about language and culture being linked:

    http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/telengana-the-first-nail-on-coffin-of-colonial-india/#comment-12848

    “Language represents the culture”

    Senthil accidentally agreeing to my point about regional pride being way to help dalits:

    http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/telengana-the-first-nail-on-coffin-of-colonial-india/#comment-12829

    “The best anti-dote to this dalit identity is the cultural regions.. For eg, in the united UP, Bahujan Samaj Party acquires power, through horizontal consolidation.. whereas, take bhundelkand.. the role of Dalit identity will be minimised and the regional culture and history will take place..”
    Andhra Pradesh and telugu cultural region is precisely that antidote.

    Me answering Senthil and vyas’ questions saying YSR did conversions—not united Andhra.

    http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/telengana-the-first-nail-on-coffin-of-colonial-india/#comment-12860

    “Conversions in Andhra were due to adharmic government at center and YSR. They channeled huge funds to convert poor people in coast regions. ”

    Rohingyas brought to Hyderabad by Owaisis:

    http://www.rediff.com/news/report/around-1500-rohingya-muslims-take-refuge-in-hyderabad/20130711.htm

    Owaisis and islamists calling for Urdu state and welcoming telangana:

    http://news.oneindia.in/2013/08/01/after-territory-will-language-become-an-issue-in-telangana-1273194.html

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/WPI-Jamaat-welcome-creation-of-Telangana/articleshow/21499573.cms

    Proof of Nizam Andhra Mahasabha in Telangana (Senthil FAILED to respond): http://www.myteluguroots.com/andhra-mahasabha-re-writing-history/

  3. LakshmanPST says:

    ///There is a separate caste called Telangana Niyogi, which means, those Niyogi community who hails from Telengana Region. This itself is a proof for telengana.///

    Did you even read my article properly???
    First of all, my article does not say that there are no separate areas in Andhra Pradesh…
    I’m saying again…
    THERE IS NO SEPARATE TELANGANA AREA COVERING THE PRESENT BORDERS WITH A DISTINCT CULTURE FROM REMAINING AREAS OF ANDHRA…

    The Niyogi communities found in Telangana area are Kasalanati Niyogis, Telaganya Niyogis, Golconda Vyaapaarulu, Velanati Niyogis etc…
    All these people fall under the present Telangana area…

    As I already said the present Telangana area which they are demanding as separate state covers Kasalanadu, Northern Telangana districts (ancient name that I’m yet to find) and parts of Velanadu, Venginadu and MulakaNadu as well…
    The present Telangana area is NOT a distinct cultural area…

    The present demand is merely about making the areas under Nizam rule at the time of independence into a separate state…
    They got nothing to do with the various cultural regions of Andhra Pradesh…

    And how can you say Telangana is same as Telaganya…
    What proof do you have to show that they are same…? except for the fact that they sound similar…
    There are many Kula names which do not refer to specific regions… Ex: PrathamaSaakha Niyogis, KaranaKamma Niyogis etc.
    The word Telaganya does not sound like the name of a Desham/Area…
    It is absurd to say that both are same…
    [I think the other day you were arguing with Rajiv Malhotra regarding Gandhari and Khandahar... This is exactly similar to that...]
    —-
    Moreover, I have already written this in one of the comments in my blog…

    [quote]
    A Desham is a political entity…
    Any piece of land that is ruled by a king is called as a Desham…

    Even small Zameens ruled by Zameendars, even if they are around 5-6 villages big, are referred as Deshams…
    Deshams are normally named after the king, or after the capital city of the king, or some common trait that exists in the place…

    PalNadu is named after Pallavas…
    PakaNadu is named after a village in Prakasham district…
    ‘Golconda Vyapaarulu’ didn’t exist before founding of Golconda by Nizams…

    (If I’m not wrong, that is how the names CholaNadu, PandyaNadu, CheraNadu came…)

    Now, a Jathi is formed when a group of people live in a desham for a long period of time… They start referring to themselves w.r.t that Desham’s name…
    [unquote]

    So, within an area itself, new Kula names might be born…
    Hence, merely catching hold of a single word Telaganya and saying that it refers to present day Telangana area is not correct…

    ——

    Coming to the reference to Talavanas…
    The article itself is saying that it is mere speculation and they are just BELIEVING it to be Telingas…
    And they have NO proof to show that they are Telingas…

    And if they are saying that it is between Kalinga and Andhra, it can be Chattisgarh area as well…
    It is an unreliable source…

    —-

    And you’re right about Kalinga…
    Those areas have been under the rulers of Kalinga for major part of their history…

    Nyaya should agree with this… Because, this is documented history…

    • LakshmanPST says:

      However, just because it was under Kalinga rule need not make it part of Kalinga Desham….

      • nyaya says:

        Just read your clarification–I agree with this!

        That is my point. Senthil is treating uttarandhra as though it is synonymous with kalinga. Kalinga region is in fact much larger and primarily centered around Orissa. Uttarandhra would be part of it based on varying power of Kalinga/Orissa kings.

        But the uttarandhra region is not the same piece of land as ancient kalinga. That is wrong.

    • nyaya says:

      Lakshman,

      You missed the point about Kalinga. Senthil is saying kalinga is a distinct desam–distinct from Orissa. This is wrong.

      Kalinga is considered one of the names of Orissa. You should agree with this…because it is documented history…

      I am saying kalinga is merely one of the names of orissa. Uttarandhra being under rule of Kalinga for parts of history are true-where have I denied this? But borders change.

      That does not change the fact that Vijayanagara took it back from Gajapati orissa rulers. Pusapatis of vizianagaram are telugu speaking suryavanshis who ruled in uttarandhra. Kalinga is not distinct from Orissa–merely question of whether parts of Andhra were occasionally ruled (no one denies this). Circumstances have changed–that is the ultimate point.

      Let’s not miss the woods for the trees…You and I agree broadly speaking. You yourself are complaining about how Senthil is mischaracterizing our comments. So let’s focus on the big picture and not get caught up in trivia.

      • LakshmanPST says:

        Actually, my bad… I didn’t read the Senthil’s article properly… I merely read the part where he was referring to me and replied to it…
        Anyways, got your point…

        • nyaya says:

          No problem, brother!

          Appreciate your long standing effort to rebut Senthil’s misinformation about Telangana. You, Zed and vyasa2 (on twitter) were the original people to counter this. Senthil has used same delaying tactics and partial answers to avoid admitting the truth: There was no ancient Telangana desam. Nizams used same supposedly orthodox obscurantist people peddling stuff like this to divide hindus in order to keep power.

          Anyhow, thank you for your work and going to the trouble of starting a blog to respond.

      • senthil says:

        /** You missed the point about Kalinga. Senthil is saying kalinga is a distinct desam–distinct from Orissa. This is wrong.

        Kalinga is considered one of the names of Orissa. You should agree with this…because it is documented history…
        **/

        I have clearly given proofs that Odra dhesa and Kalinga Dhesa are two different dhesams right from mahabharatha days.. still you are continuing your blunt denial.. Modern orissa state is a Colonial Creation, and NOT the exact ancient dhesams.. it was created out of bengal and madras province (ganjam district of norther circars) of colonial british india.. This cannot be basis for studying our ancient dhesams..

        It is foolish to say both odra and kalinga are common names of Modern orissa.. the truth is otherwise.. modern orissa is formed out of both Odra and Kalinga dhesa which were two different dhesams..

        • nyaya says:

          “I have clearly given proofs that Odra dhesa and Kalinga Dhesa are two different dhesams right from mahabharatha days.. ”

          You have done no such thing–your so called “proof” has been impugned by you yourself when you said it was inaccurate. That same “map” also said Talavahana-Telangana is speculative. Thus, your entire argument is centered around speculation–not actual historical knowledge. Wikipedia spec map is not proof…

          Kalinga and Oddhra have now become names for same state–Orissa. I have given you proof below. Here is more;

          http://www.odisha.gov.in/portal/ViewDetails.asp?vchglinkid=GL012&vchplinkid=PL048

          “History of Odisha
          EARLY HISTORY
          Kalinga is known to be a powerful kingdom as early as the time of the Kurukshetra battle. “

          It is not foolish to say this. Rather it is the height of ignorance to deny what oriya people themselves say. So a tamilian is now not only defining andhra–he thinks he can contradict oriya people and define orissa too…

          Your ignorance of gangas and gajapatis itself shows you don’t have sufficient knowledge on topic.

    • senthil says:

      /** THERE IS NO SEPARATE TELANGANA AREA COVERING THE PRESENT BORDERS WITH A DISTINCT CULTURE FROM REMAINING AREAS OF ANDHRA…
      **/

      the borders may be debatable.. but do you accept the fact that there was separate telengana cultural region, which your own telaganya niyogi caste indicates.. (Pls dont ask this foolish question whether teleganya is same as telengana.. the very term teleganya niyogi came only from telengana region )..

      /** And how can you say Telangana is same as Telaganya…
      What proof do you have to show that they are same…? except for the fact that they sound similar…
      **/

      Pls tell me how did the caste name “Teleganya Niyogi” came??

      /** The Niyogi communities found in Telangana area are Kasalanati Niyogis, Telaganya Niyogis, Golconda Vyaapaarulu, Velanati Niyogis etc…
      All these people fall under the present Telangana area…
      **/

      So what.. even in pandya dhesam, there are many areas where choliya brahmins live.. does that mean there is NO pandya dhesam?? the jathi names indicate where they came from.. for eg, velanati niyogis are people who came from velanadu.. eventhough they migrated to different region, they still identify them by their enthic root..

      In Gujarat, there are a section of brahmins who are identified by surname “Pandya”.. they are the brahmins who came from Pandya dhesam thousands of year before to gujarat, but till now they identify themselves as pandyas..

      • LakshmanPST says:

        ///the borders may be debatable///
        YES… Thanks for accepting…
        You yourself don’t even know what the borders are… And you want to divide Andhra… What a joke…

        ///but do you accept the fact that there was separate telengana cultural region, which your own telaganya niyogi caste indicates.. (Pls dont ask this foolish question whether teleganya is same as telengana.. the very term teleganya niyogi came only from telengana region )///
        ///Pls tell me how did the caste name “Teleganya Niyogi” came??///

        It is YOU who is making a foolish statement here and writing foolish article without even having the basic idea of Andhra history or culture…

        First, YOU tell me what is the proof that Telaganya refers to Telangana… Just because names sound similar???
        It’s funny that you don’t agree with Rajiv Malhotra when he says that Khandahar is same as Gandhari… But you want me to agree with you when you say that Telangana is same as Telaganya…
        The proof for both these things is some shitty map you found on Wikipedia… and You’re quoting some random articles which themselves say that their are merely speculating…

        And you are calling ME foolish…
        Dude… Go and first divide your Tamil Nadu… And stop worrying about Andhra… We know our culture much better than you do…

        ///So what.. even in pandya dhesam, there are many areas where choliya brahmins live.. does that mean there is NO pandya dhesam?? the jathi names indicate where they came from.. for eg, velanati niyogis are people who came from velanadu.. eventhough they migrated to different region, they still identify them by their enthic root..///

        Did you even read the reply article I wrote to you…????
        I clearly explained in that article what all regions come under the modern Telangana borders…
        They include parts of Velanadu, parts of Mulakanadu, parts of Venginadu apart from KasalaNadu and Manyam area…
        KasalaNati niyogis belong to present day Telagnana region…
        So does Golconda Vyaapaarylu… So does the Velanati and Mulakanati Niyogis
        They are not non-natives of THIS Telangana region…

        Going by YOUR logic, they should divide these areas separately… Why do you want a Telangana state which is a combination of 4-5 different areas whose borders are not even clear???
        You’re contradicting your own theory by supporting Telangana state…

        Also please not that not all Castes maintain their identity when they move to different regions… Some might mingle with the local Jaathis… New Jaathis may be formed…
        You can not conclude anything when the political situation is volatile…
        —-

        I don’t want to continue further…
        Let me conclude with this…

        “Andhra Pradesh has lot of cultural areas…
        At the time of independence, some were under British and some were under Nizam… which were merged post 1956…
        The present demand is to create two separate states based on the political situation of 1950…
        It got NOTHING to do with traditional Deshams or cultural regions or administrative systems… only pure politics…

        And a lot of things have changed in these regions over the history and Andhra had gone through so much of internal unrest for the past 1000 years…
        All you did was reading some stuff about Tamil Nadu history and you want to apply it to Andhra which is ridiculous…”

        Lastly, I say this… I replied to your original article only because it was appearing on Vijayvaani… If not, I wouldn’t have given a rat-shit about your article…
        Your article doesn’t create an iota of difference… They are gonna divide Andhra anyway…

        Now what you, me and everyone else here can do is wait for India to be divided into independent countries…
        Bye…

    • senthil says:

      /** Now, a Jathi is formed when a group of people live in a desham for a long period of time… They start referring to themselves w.r.t that Desham’s name…
      [unquote]

      So, within an area itself, new Kula names might be born…
      Hence, merely catching hold of a single word Telaganya and saying that it refers to present day Telangana area is not correct…
      **/

      Your statement is contradictory by itself.. the jathi name is based on occupation and dhesam.. eventhough these jathis migrate to other regions later, they had always maintained this ethnic identity..

      The term Telganya Niyogi are those Niyogi brahmins (occupation), who first settled in telegana region (dhesam).. this itself proves the existence of separate telengana region, which you are NOT ready to agree.. there may be difference of opinion in current telengana borders.. that is valid.. but to deny separate telengana itself is unjust..

      • LakshmanPST says:

        I thought of not commenting further, but this will be my last comment on this article…

        1. I’m not saying that they are no separate cultural regions within Andhra… I never denied it anywhere… I fully acknowledge that there are many cultural regions within Andhra…

        2. Is Telaganya Niyogi a political Jaathi or a cultural jaathi??? That’s not clear…

        3. Assuming that Telaganya Niyogi is a cultural Jaathi, what is their native region called as????
        You’re saying that it is called Telangana without any proof… (except that names are sounding similar…)

        4. And above all… EVEN if that name is Telangana (which is highly improbable), what I’m saying is that it is a cultural area WITHIN AndhraDesham… NOT an area distinct from AndhraDesham…

        What you’re saying is that Telangana is totally different and distinct from AndhraDesham… That’s bullshit…
        It is with this point that I’m disagreeing with…

        I’m not contradicting anywhere… I’m clear about my stand… It is YOU who is getting confused… Read my article and comments properly…
        —-
        ///eventhough these jathis migrate to other regions later, they had always maintained this ethnic identity..///

        But they need not have to maintain the same name…
        They might change the name…
        That’s how new Jaathis are formed, Jaathi is NOT something that is frozen…

        And the name of a Jaathi can come from anything… King’s name, village name, region name, anything…
        It need not be only due to cultural region…
        —-

        Also, I already said this before… Andhram is another name for Telugu language. Andhra refers to all Telugu speaking regions,..
        You will know this, if you have some idea about Andhra literature…

        Forget reading and writing, you can’t even speak Telugu and you’re saying that Andhram and Telugu are different… I can’t help but laugh at it…

        Don’t waste your time developing silly theories… There are enough theories already developed by so many people to divide us Andhrites… We don’t need new theories… Just leave us alone…

        • senthil says:

          /** 2. Is Telaganya Niyogi a political Jaathi or a cultural jaathi??? That’s not clear…
          **/

          The Telaganya Niyogi got itse name, because they settled in “Telangana” region.. you are refusing to accept this simple part.. “telaganya” is a colloquial term for “Telangana”.. it is a cultural jathi of the traditional society of telangana region..

        • senthil says:

          /** what I’m saying is that it is a cultural area WITHIN AndhraDesham… NOT an area distinct from AndhraDesham…
          **/

          Can you pls cite any historic references which defines the borders of andhra dhesam?

          /** What you’re saying is that Telangana is totally different and distinct from AndhraDesham… That’s bullshit…
          It is with this point that I’m disagreeing with…
          **/

          Its NOT me saying.. its the telangana people saying.. also historically, the dhesams and sub-divisions (nadu) within the dhesam are all demarcated based on river basins and mountains.. from the aspect also, telangana is a distinct region from coastal andhra (andhra dhesam)..

          Pls look at the irrigation maps from government records and you can understand these concepts..

          For eg, in tamilnadu, the chola dhesam is based on lower cauvery basin, thondai dhesam (north TN) based on palaru basin, pandya nadu based on vaigai & tamirabarani basin.. Kongu nadu based on middle cauvery basin,

          /** But they need not have to maintain the same name…
          They might change the name…
          That’s how new Jaathis are formed, Jaathi is NOT something that is frozen…
          **/

          This is your imagination & speculation and NOT on some solid data.. i have done detailed study on jathi migration pattern and time frame, and i can confidently say, jathis had retained their identity for thousands of years.. the change of jathi names do not happen frequently, and i have studied few instances where jathi names change..

          /**
          And the name of a Jaathi can come from anything… King’s name, village name, region name, anything…
          It need not be only due to cultural region…
          **/

          Jathis are based on dhesam and sub-dhesam.. NOT just for humans.. even for flora and fauna.. the ongole cow breed, hallikar cow breeds, gir, tharparkar and so many other cow varieties are based on the region / dhesam names…

        • senthil says:

          /** Also, I already said this before… Andhram is another name for Telugu language. Andhra refers to all Telugu speaking regions,..
          You will know this, if you have some idea about Andhra literature…
          **/

          Pls quote referencs from andhra literature to prove your point.. also pls quote sociology details like jathi setup, jathi culture, marriage customs, and marriage relationship networks..

          on the other hand, the term telangana had come from the word “Trilinga” which is the land b/w three mountains..

          /**
          Forget reading and writing, you can’t even speak Telugu and you’re saying that Andhram and Telugu are different… I can’t help but laugh at it…
          Don’t waste your time developing silly theories… There are enough theories already developed by so many people to divide us Andhrites… We don’t need new theories… Just leave us alone…
          **/

          Stop your moral & intellectual arrogance.. the separate telangana demand was placed by telangana people themselves and NOT by me.. i am merely quoting some historical references, which i am open enough to debate and discuss..

          You are living in your imaginated world of “United Andhra”, whereas your United andhra was created only after independance.. before that it was part of madras province..

          • LakshmanPST says:

            Dude… Seriously…
            I’m starting to believe that you really suffer from verbal diarrhoea…

            I have given you all the proofs in my comments…
            Your points have been systematically disproven, not just by me, but by others as well…
            You have not at all answered any of the points I have raised, not once but twice…
            Not only that, you were calling me foolish and also calling others as idiotic…

            And now you came back to square one… You wrote the same points all over again and you’re asking me to disprove them again…
            And you’re saying that I’m suffering from intellectual arrogance…

            —-
            I have been reading your older articles and the comment sections lately…
            It is the same pattern…
            1) You develop some shitty theory… 2) Give some selective examples 3) Call out to the world to disprove you… 4) If someone disagrees and systematically disproves you, you won’t accept… 5) Instead starts branding him as arrogant, ignorant, idiotic etc…

            This article also went in the same way…

            It is like the Marxist historians developing shitty theories and asking the Hindus to disprove them… and then branding them as right-wingers for disproving it…

            What you’re doing here is intellectual dishonesty…
            —-

            There is nothing new in these three comments for me to reply… I have already answered them either in my article or in the comment section here…
            I’m not jobless to keep arguing in circles again & again…

            —-

            Until I replied to your original article, you didn’t even know how many cultural regions exists in Andhra Pradesh…
            That itself proves how “knowledgeable” you’re about history of Andhra Pradesh…
            And you’re calling out to divide Andhra Pradesh with that rat-shit knowledge of yours…
            That’s funny…

            Bye…

          • senthil says:

            @lakshman,

            YOu are resorting the same tactics of @nyaya.. you people make some randomised comments and then instantly claim you have disproved me.. and then you start making personal attacks on me..

            In any fair debate, both sides present their points and debate each others arguments without pre-emptive conclusion.. but what you people do is to make some statements, and then project it as systematic proofs and then claim i am disproved.. this is nothing but intellectual arrogance.. the manner in which you wrote your own blog article itself displays your intellectual high handedness..

            I had pointed you the telaganya niyogi caste, but you indulge in denial mode that telaganya doesnt denote telangana..

            and you have not provided any proofs for your claim that entire andhra was ONE SINGLE Cultural Dhesam.. pls cite me any proofs from your side, if you had really made it..

            If what you say is Ultimate Unquestionable proof that everyone should accept, then there is no meaning in debating further..

  4. LakshmanPST says:

    @Senthil…
    Reply to other points you have raised are also there in the article I had written…

    —-

    I have said this in a comment in my article and I’m saying this again…

    [quote]
    I have been reading some of your old articles lately… What I find is that in many cases you universalize something that happened specifically in Tamil Nadu and impose it to the whole of India…

    I don’t know much about Tamil Nadu history… But from what I read in your blogs, the differences between the areas come mainly because these areas (CholaNadu, PandyaNadu and CheraNadu) were politically different as well… And have been so for more than 2000 years (may be even more)…

    As I already mentioned, Andhra did not have a political continuity, something which Tamil Nadu had…
    That’s where the difference is…
    [unquote]

    You fail to acknowledge this…

    In Tamil Nadu, because of this political separation for thousands of years, the areas have developed distinct cultures and traditions which are significantly different from each other…
    As you said, even the different jaathis in different areas won’t inter-marry in Tamil Nadu…

    But that’s not the case with Andhra…
    In Andhra, because of the Muslim invasions, there were large scale migrations between areas…
    Many people were uprooted…
    And moreover, even before the Muslim rule, Andhra didn’t have the kind of political continuity which Tamil Nadu had…
    And the different jaathis have been intermarrying all over Andhra for thousands of years…
    Andhrites are more homogenous compared to Tamil Nadu…

    You do not acknowledge any of this…
    And instead you want to stick to your theory of dividing Andhra into four regions… Even after I have clearly explained in my blog about how those four regions came into being…

    • senthil says:

      /** In Andhra, because of the Muslim invasions, there were large scale migrations between areas…
      Many people were uprooted…
      And moreover, even before the Muslim rule, Andhra didn’t have the kind of political continuity which Tamil Nadu had…
      And the different jaathis have been intermarrying all over Andhra for thousands of years…
      Andhrites are more homogenous compared to Tamil Nadu…
      **/

      1. Its true that many people were uprooted bcoz of muslim invasion.. Now the muslim rule is NO MORE, we have to again re-root our people based on our pre-islamic history.. why should we accept the uprooted status of our people as permanent?

      If we identify ourselves as a nation based on Ancient History, then it is logical to re-organise our present administrative structure based on that ancient history.. this is my position..
      Or else, if we identify ourselves as a nation of Islamic Invasion, then what you say makes sense.. we have to re-organise our administration based on that muslim system.. this is what you are saying..

      2. Eventhough jathis were uprooted, they still maintain their ancient ethnic identity.. that’s why you have different Niyogi Castes.. if people were merged and mixed and become homogenous as you claim, these identities need not have existed at all..

      3. Your Niyogi Caste may intermarry across regions.. and ONLY among Niyogi Caste.. however, the reddys, kapus, kammas dont intermarry.. they still follow their age old customs.. so as all other non-brahmin communities..

      4. Your belief that whole of present andhra is homogenous is outrightly wrong.. i challenge you to show any single voice from telengana region, supporting united andhra state..

      • LakshmanPST says:

        You’re NOT answering my main question and instead flying around with your own theories which are based ONLY on Tamil Nadu history…
        Not just that, you’re selectively quoting both from my article, as well as, my comments… And saying that I’m self-contradictory…

        A Desham is a political entity… It is NOT a cultural region…
        Even a Zamindari system with 4-5 villages calls itself as a Desham…
        Now when that political continuity exists for a very long time, the people identify themselves based on that Desham’s name…

        So, every Jaathi’s name NEED NOT BE the name of a cultural Jaathi…

        So, your theory totally fails… Because, unlike in Tamil Nadu, in Andhra, political situation was volatile… So, no one knows how exactly Jaathis are formed, whether a Jaathi represents a political Jaathi or a cultural Jaathi…

        In your Tamil Nadu, this political situation has been frozen for quite long… So, there was not much difference between political and cultural Jaathis…
        BUT NOT IN ANDHRA…
        You’re not at all acknowledging this point, because that will blast the balloon theory which you created…
        Instead you’re going around in circles quoting my article and comments selectively…

        It is illogical to say that Andhra should be divided the same way as Tamil Nadu should be divided…
        And YES, history matters… You should proceed on case-to-case basis… Just because something might work in Tamil Nadu, doesn’t mean that it will work in some other state…
        —-
        Coming to the points you raised

        1) I have answered this before…
        To divide India as per cultural regions,
        first you should teach them what their ancient culture is… And
        second, should restore the traditional administrative systems…

        No one is gonna do these two things now, or in any near future…
        If you divide them without doing these two things, India will be screwed… (And India is gonna get screwed…)

        You are not at all answering this point, which I have been raising again and again…

        2) In Andhra if two people marry, the girl takes up the identity of the boy’s Jaathi… That’s standard tradition in Andhra in all Castes…
        So, individual identities of these jaathis always exist…

        3) Who said Reddys, Kapus and Kammas won’t inter-marry? They all inter-marry among their respective Jaathis from different areas…
        I know about this much better than you do…
        For example, in some areas Kammas have surname Naidu, some areas Chowdhary, some areas Rayudu, some areas Reddy also… Within these groups there are again many sub-jaathis… They all inter-marry…

        4) No… no one in Telangana will acknowledge this… I’m damn sure… Because, they want to get divided…

        • nyaya says:

          Lakshman garu, you are correct. KCR’s have served the agendas of owaisis and poisoned the minds of telangana masses. Fortunately, there are some telangana educated people who have spoken out in favor of united andhra. They have acknowledged our unity.

          Nalamotu Chakravarthy is one such person (family from Telangana). Here is his blog:

          http://www.myteluguroots.com/about.html

  5. LakshmanPST says:

    @Senthil
    ///Whereas if we had smaller states, even if christians capture one region, the other three regions will be spared.///

    Seriously, you think its a joke or something that one whole region is converted to Christianity???
    We are not distributing war spoils with Christianity here… to say that it is OK for them to capture one region while we capture three regions…

    We are losing one whole region here which is originally ours…

    —-
    This is what I wrote in my blog…

    [quote]
    Particularly, in Coastal Andhra missionary activity is rampant… If you divide it more, you might get Christian majority states… Same is the case with Raayalaseema… (Infact in your own Tamil Nadu, southern areas are Christian majority districts…)

    We cannot take collective action on issues… The point here is that states will be disconnected from one another… You will not know what is happening in your neighbouring state… It will seriously effect culture…

    You might argue that people will be more rooted within their traditional Deshams compared to Linguistic based Deshams… How can you assure this, given the fact that no one is taught about their traditional history…??? What you said will be possible ONLY if people were taught about Indian culture and history from Indian perspective… Are they going to do that??? NO…

    Also how can you assure that people will remain rooted given the intensity of religious conversions…??? Conversions won’t stop by division of state… And in all probability they will only get worse, because people from one state will consider it as an internal matter of another state… Collective action will become difficult…
    [unquote]

    Let me add few more points to this…
    People merely sticking to their Castes WILL NOT stop conversions…

    Any person will convert only if he feels that his religion is not his own and instead considers it as something imposed by someone else on him…
    Now, if it is a Caste, the whole Caste will convert if they are convinced that their religion is imposed by some other Caste on them…

    To prevent this, there should be interaction between Castes…
    They should be taught proper history…

    When you localize things, it will become more difficult to do these things…
    People will become more disconnected… And it will become easier to manipulate them…

  6. senthil says:

    @nyaya,

    Pls focus only on this talavahanas issue in this comment reply.. (pls dont drag other topics here.. ) we will have separate thread for each topic..

    Telengana vs Talvahanas:
    ——————————-

    In mahabharatha, the talavahanas are said to be b/w kalinga and andhra.. (as we look from North India).. the region b/w andhra and kalinga are the present day Telengana.. do you accept this reality? Please dont attack me or indulge in denial.. answer ONLY to this question in this thread..

    • nyaya says:

      No, you don’t set the parameters for debate, you have to respect them.

      You keep avoiding obvious fact that your own source said talavahana-telangana connection was speculative (you failed to respond to this). Multiple people have given proof of how your own source is wrong. If you change your comment setting to allow multiple links–readers will clearly see this.

    • senthil says:

      @nyaya,

      Your comment link was in Spam section and i have already approved this..

      Lets ignore the Telengana == Talavahana part.. do you accept that there was a separate dhesam b/w kalinga and andhra, as mentioned in Mahabharatha.. do you accept that the geographical location of talavahanas points to present day telengana region? If not, pls tell me where they point to?

      • nyaya says:

        Thank you for approving my links comment.

        Talavahana-Telangana can’t be ignored. That is the core of the debate.Your wikipedia map itself said this is all speculative. Then you said uttarandhra was kalinga–also false. I have shown you how kalinga was centered around orissa. You have no case.

        You refuse to admit these mistakes–at least vyas admitted his mistake. I’m not trying to be mean to you, Senthil, but the facts are staring you in the face. You have to be honest and accept you were wrong about Telangana-Talavahana and accept that Telangana is not a traditional desam. Most damning, I have shown you how Telangana people in hyderabad state called their organization “nizam ANDHRA Mahasabha”. Telanganites themselves called themselves Andhras.

        Everyone makes mistakes, Senthil. Just be honest and admit, and then people will respect you for integrity–and you can move on to new topics. That is how india can solve problems–not through stubbornness. Be a good example to your readership.

        • senthil says:

          Pls focus on the issue alone.. the location of talavahanas mentioned in mahabharatha points to the present day telengana region.. pls answer for this point…

          • nyaya says:

            I have focused on the issues–it is you who are ignoring. I already addressed talavahanas-telanganas confirmed as speculative by your own source

            You have failed to answer why Telangana people in Hyderabad state called their organization “Nizam ANDHRA mahasabha”. Proof that Andhra refers to all telugus.

            You must answer this point or you forfeit debate. This is central to the issue.

  7. senthil says:

    @nyaya,

    The modern state of Orissa is created by Britishers in 1936.. It did not exist as SINGLE linguistic state before that..

    The odra dhesam and Kalinga dhesam was existing right from mahabharatha days.. the northern part of orissa is the Odra Dhesam and souther part (Ganjam district etc) is the kalinga dhesam..

    In the References given below, both odra dhesa and kalinga dhesa are mentioned..

    /===
    The Odras were mentioned along with the Vangas, Angas and Paundras as bringing tribute for Yudhisthira for his Rajasuya sacrifice (3,51).
    Source: http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/odra
    ===/
    /====
    The Pasupati Temple Inscription of Nepal describe that Jayadeva the king of Nepal married to Rajyamati who possessed virtues befitting her race, the noble descendant of Bhagadutta’s royal line and daughter of Sri Harshavarman, lord of Gauda, Odra, Kalinga, Kosala and other land, who crushed the heads of hostile kings with club like tusks of his rutting elephants

    source: http://orissa.gov.in/e-magazine/Orissareview/2008/april-2008/engpdf/25-26.pdf
    =====/

    Now answer me this question: Do you agree that odra dhesam and Kalinga Dhesam are two different dhesams??

    Pls answer my question directly and dont drag other points in this particular comment thread.. just focus on the core point alone..

    • nyaya says:

      “It did not exist as SINGLE linguistic state before that”

      Wrong. Both gangas and gajapatis were oriya dynasties centered on modern orissa–both of whom vigorously resisted sultans. Vijayanagara kings pushed gajapatis back from uttarandhra and restricted them to Oriya speaking parts. This is the problem when you only do partial study of history.

      Again, if you change your comment setting to allow multiple links, I will easily show you this. Even orissa gov sites which you use repeatedly refer to Kalinga as their primary state. Odhra and utkala were other names. They may have been tribes before, but all oriya now. Odhra tribe gave name to all “odia/oriya” people. Like Andhra tribe.

      Orissa-Kalinga-Oddhra all part of same cultural region. Oddhra tribe gave Orissa name.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Odisha#Historical_names_of_Orissa

      Kalinga is not synonymous with uttarandhra–that was your effective contention in the previous telangana thread. Kalinga is much larger and centered around Orissa. So no, you are wrong. You are now doubly wrong with your orissa did not exist as linguistic state before british assertion being disproven.

      The fact remains, your history is really lacking–and this is glaringly obvious after repeated interaction. Rather than give ill-thought out solutions,you should do good faith and intensive study. Perhaps then, your readers will benefit.

    • senthil says:

      @nyaya,

      /** Wrong. Both gangas and gajapatis were oriya dynasties centered on modern orissa **/

      these are dynasties and NOT linguistic state.. many kings had ruled over other dhesams, but that doesnt mean the underlying cultural dhesam has changed..

      The Nepal Inscriptions which i referred exactly proves it.. Harshavarman was said to be lord of gouda, odra, kalinga, kosala dhesams.. just bcoz he ruled doesnt make all these lands in to single entity..

      /** They may have been tribes before, but all oriya now. Odhra tribe gave name to all “odia/oriya” people. Like Andhra tribe
      **/
      That’s what i am also saying.. the oddara people belong to oddara dhesam, and kalinga people belong to kalinga dhesam..
      Till now, there are many jathis in northern andhra and southern orissa with their jathi name as kalinga.. Kalinga Vysya is just an example – http://kalingavysyas.com/

      /** Orissa-Kalinga-Oddhra all part of same cultural region **/

      No.. the right way to interpret – kalinga and odra dhesams are part of modern orissa state..

      • anon says:

        the kalinga vysyas website,its declared aims,objectives and personal names strongly support senthilji’s theory

        • nyaya says:

          You missed the point. Senthil said uttarandhra unambiguously was kalinga. This is wrong. Kalinga is much larger than small uttarandhra and is centered around Orissa.

          I’m afraid your one line comment adds no weight to senthil’s disproven argument. He was disproven on telangana-talavahana and disproven on uttarandhra-kalinga. Now he is trying to distract with kalinga oddra discussion–which is ancillary to telangana debate.

          The fact is there was no telangana desam. Senthil should be dignified and graciously admit mistake rather than stubbornly hold out or recruit anons.

          • anon says:

            see,the kalinga-orissa connection itself is suspicious,and became prominent only after ashoka’s story,which may be fantastic in its own way. Is there any unambiguous reference to mahanadi/cuttack river in any account about kalinga? or any sthala or great temple present today? for example do people in the above river valleys refer to their land as kalinga in rituals or something else? There are utkal brahmins,not kalinga brahmins mentioned the the verse about pancha-gauda and pancha dravida brahmins.for ex. jagannath mandir is in utkal but was built first by a kalinga king.
            So kalinga could have been separate.Before just using sweeping terms and conclusions, you should do some study,try out possibilities. Disproof is not seen here,just shouting. Senthil has shown existence of kalinga vysya jati,and you have not shown that they are subset of andhra vysya jati.
            the exact boundaries might not be known, but approximate location is certainly between odra/utkala and andhra.As for kings, andhra kings might have conquered all regions of modern andhra/orissa, and of course they will declare”andhra -chakravarti” and not “kalinga chakravarti” i.e. a chakravarti from andhra. So that proves nothing.
            ganga dynasty was kalinga with capital at mukhalingam in present andhra.later they and gajapatis moved north and ruled.
            based on these considerations,telengana cud have certainly had uniqueness;also not that reddy dynasties who fought so long and hard were people from the coast, right from orissa to Tamil nadu.

        • senthil says:

          @anon,

          The kalinga vysa were also called Kumuti Chetty .. these kalinga vysyas were found in large numbers in uttara andhra (Gomathi river belt).

          The social composition of the every region will be a proof of the dhesam.. Culture and traditions develop based on region (geography, riverine, land & climate) and NOT simply on race.. Urban Indians dont realise this, because they live in Concrete Jungles, far dis-connected from nature..

          • nyaya says:

            @ anon, you are attempting to distract from the debate to save senthil’s chestnuts from the fire–so the rambling comment above hasn’t added anything to the discussion. You also clearly didn’t read the comments properly so let me explain. The entire debate is focused on telangana, not kalinga. The point here was that sentil said that uttarandhra was unambiguously kalinga–which is a HUGE “self-goal”. That alone shows he has no understanding of the issue and isn’t qualified to give solutions.

            @ senthil, if you are going to make up identities on your own blog to help your case and give you cover fire–it’s usually a good idea not to call them “anon”. hahaha.

            The fact remains, you have demonstrated your lack of knowledge of the requisite history, and now you are trying to distract with trivial tangents. This shows that Rural indians are provincial rubes who can neither debate logically nor read history unprejudicially. They are hidebound and far too arrogantly prideful to ever admit a mistake. You clearly don’t have the intestinal fortitude to address my point on Telangana people calling it nizam andhra mahasabha in hyderabad state.

            I have given you many opportunities over the past week to respond to the mahasabha point–but each time your run away.So I guess your forfeit the debate.

          • anon says:

            @nyaya @senthil shri nyaya’s method of reasoning is very strange, as follows:

            —just use lots of adjectives and claim that your opponent is “disproved”,”misunderstood”,”totally false” etc. 95% of his words are just repeating his opinion.
            –in normal reasoning,one collects facts,and draws plausible conclusions,till new facts oppose it. shri nyaya in all his posts has provided only one “fact”:that andhra has always been united and therefore any other analysis is worthless even if obvious facts oppose it.
            –and while solutions are suggested and possibilities investigated,no one is forcing the fact that telengana/andhra must be separate. only an opinion and recommendation is provided.if you dont want to follow,leave it!
            –ancient scriptures are only guides and strong conclusions are difficult to draw.Ex. names,places and meanings might change,and so only approximate indications can be drawn.But the names of jatis,which are private and maintained in clans/families are indicative:eg. aroras once were in aror in sindh,bhatias from bhati.In pakistan many muslim rajputs trace their descent from ganga valley or rajasthan for greater prestige! the very name provides a strong link and reference that is “safe”.No one needs to cook up a story that my ancestors came from sindh or anywhere.But the place origin is retained as jati name/surname provide a powerful identity marker and to advance their interests. Thats why the kalinga vysya reference is so strong.
            –the utkala region is around puri and then north till midnapore in bengal,not north andhra & south modern orissa which is kalinga,according to kalidas
            (see the book history of bagree rajya)
            –the nizam andhra name as you say is a modern phenomenon.since CE Central india was dominated by rashtrakuta-s and later yadavas of devagiri who spoke the prakrits that later branched to kannad and marathi.All this while telugu developed in coastal andhra pradesh and north of thondai nadu. So when kakatiyas (mainly telugu speaking)conqured they called themselves andhras. even more tellingly,the andhras concentrate on the krishna river(amaravati of nagarjuna who was known to be from andhra) while telingas were on the godavari river.So certainly there was something called telinga different from andhra. The nizam andhra sabha could be formed by uninformed people who want to adopt an identity from the andhra warriors like kaktiyas,vijayanagara kings etc.
            –intestinal fortitued? your point is meaningless!Senthil says that if states are arranged based on their ancient desha and their ethinicites,many of the current problems could be solved,or at least eased. Whether it is true will have to be seen.It is not a radical or unnatural demand,much less unnatural than simply assigning districts according to even small linguistic majorities. This is a proposition that should be looked into.indeed our enemies have tried to break apart the links that hold all of bharat together by greatly exaggerating the language issue,especially in Tamil nadu. Our kings were never so partisan but encouraged poets of multiple languages,and they themselves were multilingual.
            –by “forfeiting” or winning some debate the problems of hindu survival is not going to go away.what will you go and say to others–“in a blog someone forfeited a debate to me??” people comment here to understand issues from little known facts that are never presented in the media or known to the general public,which senthil collects and presents,and open enough to discuss his ideas with us.Many of these are critical to our country(like agriculture,identity,history) and our civilization,and his opinions/theories while seemingly contrarian are not based on fanciful theories like that of communists or liberals,but on hard observed data.Most critics just “cite” some fancy western theories and conclude nonsense because they have not learnt the western methods/scientific properly either.

          • nyaya says:

            @ anon, see again, you are distracting from the main point with your rambling wall of text.

            ” 95% of his words are just repeating his opinion.”

            I trust you can read. My very first comment laid our a multi-point rebuttal to senthil’s blog. I even gave a separate comments link as proof–only senthil didn’t approve that comment (merely removed from spam)–so people cannot see links. It is senthil who has run away from my points–partial answer to some–no answer to others.

            The fundamental point at issue here is that senthil put forward a ridiculous wikipedia map as proof that talavahanas were telingas and telingas were separate from andhras- but HIS OWN Source discredited him and said it was only “speculative”. Hence NO PROOF. SO to say this was ever a telangana desam is patently ridiculous.

            “in normal reasoning,one collects facts,and draws plausible conclusions,till new facts oppose it. shri nyaya in all his posts has provided only one “fact”:”

            This is a blatant LIE. Looks like you are learning senthils’ pure turuska tactics. Readers can see my very first comment to see ALL my facts.

            You even lie that facts oppose my point–where is proof?

            “but the names of jatis,which are private and maintained in clans/families are indicative”

            * Lakshman has already addressed this. Both you and senthil are claiming superior knowledge of Lakshman’s own community–hilarious!

            “not north andhra & south modern orissa which is kalinga,”

            AGAIN, you clearly missed the point. Senthil did not say kalinga was south orissa. SENTHIL SAID NORTH ANDHRA WAS KALINGA. So don’t try and mislead readers. He was proven wrong–and now you are trying to clean up his mess–very poorly I might add.

            “the nizam andhra name as you say is a modern phenomenon”

            Yes–only it was cause by persian-turks and mughals. that’s what you don’t understand.

            ‘So when kakatiyas (mainly telugu speaking)conqured they called themselves andhras”

            Kakatiyas were the immediate preceding state. 75 telugu speaking nayaks under prolaya nayak then united to successfully throwout turks. Musunuri nayaks also called themselves Andhradesadeeswara having liberating Warangal in Telangana. Do not lecture me on a history you know very little about.

            “while telingas were on the godavari river.So certainly there was something called telinga different from andhra”

            No this is pure sophistry. Haha, you are making up facts about telingas which senthil’s own source said was speculative. But then you lecture on how telangana people in hyderabad state got facts wrong. Who are you to tell them who they are or whether they were wrong. Fact is, that history itself is proof of how their was no prior telangana identity–it is Nizam and razakars who pushed it then and who are pushing it today.

            “The nizam andhra sabha could be formed by uninformed people ”

            See again, more speculation. This is not a hypothetical. This is about facts. And you just lost the debate. These were not uninformed people who formed the Nizam Andhra Mahasabha but intellectuals who did who were far more informed than you or senthil. First meeting was presided over by a Sanskrit scholar. So game over, they were not uninformed, you are–and you lost.

            “Senthil says that if states are arranged based on their ancient desha and their ethinicites,many of the current problems could be solved”

            This ridiculous argument has already been debunked by myself and Lakshman–both have whom have said there was no ancient telangana desam, and even if we have desam system, people can be split along caste. Senthil himself scored a self goal when he said cultural regions would help dalits against missionary propaganda–the problem is ANDHRA IS THE CULTURAL region. Telangana is merely urdu influenced colonial byproduct that is STEALTH Hyderabad state

            “Senthil says that if states are arranged based on their ancient desha and their ethinicites,many of the current problems could be solved”

            The problem is Senthil is the one posing with a blog claiming he is a cultural revivalist giving all solutions. The problem is–he doesn’t know what he is talking about. So if this becomes apparent in a debate, the honorable and truthful thing to do is to concede–or opponent will see that Senthil forfeited. That’s why it matters–when intellectual poseurs stubborn spread their opinions on many forums without knowing what they are talking about.

            Ultimately, you have just proved my point. There are some people here who like what they read by senthil about agriculture. But his stubbornly refusing to admit his glaringly obvious mistake on Telangana will only serve to harm his good faith advocacy on agriculture.

            Since senthil has to stoop to use an “anon” as attack dog, it’s clear he has forfeited. Question is whether he has the integrity to accept new information and respectably change his views like a good person.

            So in sum, anon, you lost your thread of the debate when you said nizam andhra sabha could have been formed by uninformed people–they weren’t uninformed, there were even sanskrit and telugu scholars. Check mate.

          • nyaya says:

            “his opinions/theories while seemingly contrarian are not based on fanciful theories like that of communists or liberals,but on hard observed data.”

            Hahaha, like “speculative” Wikipedia maps Senthil himself criticized as being “inaccurate” on kalinga?—yeah—real “hard observed data”!. Quite the scholar…

      • nyaya says:

        “these are dynasties and NOT linguistic state.. many kings had ruled over other dhesams, but that doesnt mean the underlying cultural dhesam has changed..”

        Uh dynasties formed around the linguistic state. You don’t seem to understand that. Kakatiya state similarly formed around telugu linguistic state.

        You also conveniently ignored how telangana based kakatiyas called themselves “andhradesadeeswara” in old blog post. http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/telengana-the-first-nail-on-coffin-of-colonial-india/#comment-12817 (7. “…Kakatiya dynasty ruled all of Andhra even though they are from Telangana region (hanamkonda and warangal)–they still called themselves Andhradesadeeswara not Telanganadesadeeswara.”)

        Talk to any oriya person. Kalinga is the kingdom they most identify with. They take great pride in kalinga, gangas, and gajapatis.

        You have been given proof on Orissa gov site itself. History of kalinga is treated as history of orissa. In fact, that is the focal point, not oddhras who merely gave name to odiya/oriya people.

        Ultimately, none of this even matters–you are trying to escape. You said uttarandhra was kalinga. I showed you you were wrong and that kalinga was most of modern orissa. Yet still you pretend you have basis to continue debate. You were wrong about talavahana-telangana and now you are wrong about uttarandhra-kalinga. I have never heard of someone being wrong on so many things yet still think he can continue debate.

        Also, my links comment was taken out of spam–BUT–is still awaiting moderation. You still have to approve the comment itself.

  8. senthil says:

    @anon,

    There is no use in arguing with @nyaya .. he just makes some weird unsubstantiated statement and then instantly concludes, that is the fact and i am dis-proven.. these are very childish.. i took lot of time to gather references to show, only to get a blunt denial from him..

    For eg, @nyaya said both kaling and odiya are same.. i gave proof from Nepal Temple inscriptions where both kalinga and odra dhesa are mentioned, which means both dhesa were separate..

    Similalry, the term “Speculative” is only for the names and NOT for the regions.. i have pointed out to him that the location of Talavahanas point to current telengana, which he did not provide any answer.. he just simply resorts to name caling and claims the name telengana NOT equal to talavahanas.. let the name be differ.. arent the region same?

    there is no use in such a blunt debate.. probably we can end this debate now.. If @nyaya wants to conclude i am disproven and defeated, let him have that satisfaction.. i will accept my defeat.. let us conclude here..

    • nyaya says:

      @Senthil–you can’t argue with me because you yourself don’t use logic. You make these assertions, say you have “proof” and “fieldwork” but then run away when these are shown to be false or speculative.

      Surya Ramachandran had the same issue with you on the other page. Zed, vyasa2, and Lakshman have all complained. If this many people have complained about your irrational arguments–I think we know it is you who are being childish and stubborn.

      I gave you plenty of references in my comment 2/2. I addressed yours–you ignored mine.

      Don’t blame other people for your inability to properly argue or to honestly discuss.

      1. Your nepal temple inscription is irrelevant–YOU SAID UTTARANDHRA is unambiguously KALINGA. You were proven wrong when I told you Kalinga refers to Orissa not uttarandhra. Kalinga kings periodically conquered it, but the uttarandhra region is not same boundaries as kalinga region. Any honest person can see this. Only person using turuska tactics will deny. So you were disproven.

      2. YOU ARE CLEARLY LYING about Your map saying speculative. YOUR MAP CLEARLY SAID TELINGAS NOT MENTIONED, ONLY TALAVAHANAS. THIS IS NOT PROOF OF A TELINGA DESAM.

      You ignored my point, the map source itself is unsure of exactly where so-called talavahanas were located because it was merely a side reference in Mahabharata–so even there you wrong.

      Moreover, even if Talavahanas existed there, they were not Telingas. You pretending like they were is like Pakistanis claiming arab religion people are the inheritors of Indus Valley–even though they pretend to have different ethnicity. People don’t equate to region. Even children can understand that, but you keep posing the same ill-informed questions because of your pride.

      Your sarcastic admission of defeat is fine–because all readers can plainly see you have been lying about the facts–formal admission is only ceremonial. It is precisely this reason why Rajiv Malhotra blocked you on Twitter: “over-opinionated” ,”ORAL DIARRHEA”. Same pile of refuse arguments no matter how many corrective facts are given…

  9. senthil says:

    Regarding Nizam andhra maha sabha:
    ———————————————–

    The nizam andhra mahasabha was started by Congress persons.. and this explains everything else.. @nyaya says it was started by Intellectuals.. and everyone knows, what kind of intellectuals were produced during colonial times..

    How does an organisation started by INC and only during 1930s be a proof for united andhra??

    • nyaya says:

      What utter nonsense.You as a tamilian are saying that Telugu sanskrit scholars from Telangana know less about their own region. What more can be expected from such prideful rural types full of ahankar but free of logic. Senthil is in fact saying Nizam/Razakars are correct, but Telangana Telugus are lying about Andhra.

      Your congress argument is even more ridiculous because congress itself did not support united andhra.

      Fact remains, Telangana people themselves called themselves Andhra. Andhra is treated synonymously with telugu even by ethnologue sites. Funny how senthil wants people to rely on his wikipedia proof, but he questions actually historical fact demonstrated by numerous respectable sources..

      Because senthil apparently has trouble with logic and analysis, let us break down how Nizam Andhra Mahasabha disproves him. The organization was founded by Telangana people themselves. They were from the area, went to Nizam college and other local schools–but still saw themselves as Andhra. That is because Telugu and Andhra were frequently used synonymously. They could have called themselves Telangana Mahasabha or even Telugu Mahasbha-but they chose Andhra Mahasabha because they know they are one people.

      It is truly a pity that senthil cannot understand what even school children can. Simply raising ridiculous questions does not make your case. As the blogger, the burden of proof is on you to prove–and you have utterly failed at this. Numerous people have seen this.

  10. senthil says:

    Telengana Name:
    ——————-

    The name Telengana is derived from the name Tri-linga.. its originally called Tri-linga dhesa, the land b/w three lingas.. these three lingas are the shiva lingas located in three mountains – Kaleswaran, Srisailam and draksharama – these mountains form the borders of telangana region..

    It is these names that was referred by persians.. but @nyaya says telangana was derived from persian words which is illogical.. bcoz the trilinga dhesam was existant even before islamic invasion..

    • nyaya says:

      “The name Telengana is derived from the name Tri-linga”

      No, don’t lie. Telugu is derived from Trilinga, not Telangana. A simple google search can show this to even the most irrational person such as yourself.

      Persian-turks couldn’t say telugu so they said Telangi. Whole telugu country was referred to as Telangana, but nizam gave away coastal and rayalaseema to british.

      “Kaleswaran, Srisailam and draksharama – these mountains form the borders of telangana region..”

      Hahaha, you don’t even know your geography. Draksharamam is in the heart of COASTAL ANDHRA. It is not on the border of Telangana at all. This is what happens when ignorant non-telugus try to lecture on telugu history.

      It’s game over senthil, you just proved my own point about Telugu/Trilinga desam. One of the 3 lingas for which telugus are named is itself deep in Coast Andhra….

      Seriously, you are just embarrassing yourself now….You’re right, there is not point in continuing debate, you just score game winning goal…on yourself.

      I just want to conclude by saying the folllowing: This is not at all the way for someone pretending to be an intellectual to behave. Passing off wikipedia as proof, twisting facts to suit your opinion, keeping opinion in the face of overwhelming counter evidence, and blatantly lying—my God. I pity you not only for the beating your reputation is taking as a blogger, but as human being. This type of conduct is downright sinful–particularly for someone so concerned about brahmin jati…Shame on you, Senthil.

  11. poovannan says:

    Do you have any idea where is draksharamam.its between rajamundry and vaizag and the famous spatik linga temples of samalkote,draksharamam,bhimavaram,palakol,amaravathi has nothing to do with telengana and its boundaries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancharama_Kshetras

    The comedy of pro and antitelengana supporters is reaching alarming proportions with little importance for facts and truth.I have lived in secunderabad and vishakapatnam for years and have a bit of knowledge and their opinion and passion about telengana

    The vast majority of andhra people are just concerned with hyderabad and most of their speeches,discussions will center around it and how they have contributed for its current status. people and leaders from Vishakapatnam,vijaywada,ongole have started the murmurs for their place being ideal for the next capital and most of the protests in andhra will die down if hyderabad remains with both which the telenganites vehemently oppose.Its the revenue collection and jobs in hyderabad which is preventing peaceful separation.The french territory of yanem is with puducherry and no one objects to it till date as its a drinkers dream place inspite of being 800 km from puducherry and located close to drakhsaramam.It will be funny to see rengasamy puducherry CM hoardings in the centre of coastal andhra.

    • vyas says:

      // The vast majority of andhra people are just concerned with hyderabad and most of their speeches,discussions will center around it and how they have contributed for its current status. people and leaders from Vishakapatnam,vijaywada,ongole have started the murmurs for their place being ideal for the next capital and most of the protests in andhra will die down if hyderabad remains with both which the telenganites vehemently oppose.Its the revenue collection and jobs in hyderabad which is preventing peaceful separation.The french territory of yanem is with puducherry and no one objects to it till date as its a drinkers dream place inspite of being 800 km from puducherry and located close to drakhsaramam.It will be funny to see rengasamy puducherry CM hoardings in the centre of coastal andhra.//

      This is precisely what I’ve been saying right from the beginning. The real problem with bifurcation is hyderabad and not telangana. I can pretty much challenge and say that if KCR now agrees to give back hyderabad to Seemandhara, all protests will die down. The root of the issue happening at Andhra (post announcement of bifurcation) lies with revenue and nothing else. The common man in Andhra is simply not bothered about this issue as long as his survival is not affected. By the way I don’t understand why people making are so much fuss about this bifurcation as if Andhra is being divided to form two separate countries. I’m waiting for such bifurcations to happen in my own state TamilNadu as this is probably the only solution to end linguistic prominence. The only problem is that the voices that vouch here for bifurcation is too weak than those of Telangana.

      • nyaya says:

        As usual, you missed the point: Draksharamam is in Coastal Andhra not Telangana. By saying three lingas refer to telangana rather than Telugu, Senthil’s ignorance on both the topic and region was completely exposed with this Draksharamam self-goal.

        • senthil says:

          @nyaya,

          You are obsessed with debunking / ridiculing me rather than provide any concrete proofs on your side.. the three kshetras are NOT absolute political boundary but approximate geographic boundary, and has to be seen from that perspective.. i request you to stop taking offensive position, which only discredits what you are saying and ends up in personal attack..

          The ancient dhesas were demarcated based on riverine, catchment area and mountains.. all of these are inter-linked.. the present day linguistic states are divided based on population and NOT geography.. due to this, the catchment area of a state fell under control of neighbouring states triggering river water wars.. the best example is the fight b/w tamilnadu & kerala over vaigain and mullai periyar..

          If you take current linguistic states as benchmark, i cannot debate based on that.. i totally reject any colonial creations, and dont recognise them..

          • nyaya says:

            @ Senthil. You said this:

            ” Kaleswaran, Srisailam and draksharama – these mountains form the borders of telangana region..’

            This wasn’t even close–it was completely wrong. Draksharamam is deep in Coastal Andhra–so even as “approximate geographic boundary” it is completely wrong. Trilinga is origin of Telugu–not Telangana–there also you are wrong. There was never a telangana desam–with Draksharamam as the approximate boundary.

            I have given concrete proofs–you never responded to my links comment–you just ignored. You are the one calling yourself “cultural revivalist” and sending articles to vijayvaani–but you are using “speculative” wikipedia maps.

            For God’s sake, you are a brahmana and you are openly speaking asatya. You said something that was wrong–accept it. Even Zed–who is no fan of me–said you’ve been proven wrong on many things. Many people now can see

            My “offensive” position, is because you are obviously speaking untruths. I am trying to be polite to you because you are blogger here. But seriously, you have to correct this trait of yours–completely wrong.

            Telangana is the colonial creation by colonial persian turks–and you are supporting it. You have provided NO proof of telangana desam–your map itself said mahabharata did not mention telingas. Accept it–so you can atleast maintain credibility in eyes of your readers”

          • senthil says:

            @nyaya,

            draksharama is a major landmark which is mentioned as eastern boundary in our literatures.. the dhesams are demarcated based on catchment and river basins.. you are using a modern day political boundary to reject an ancient reference.. the himalayas are mentioned as northern boundaries of bharatha varsha.. can we locate absolute border from this? we should take it as just an appropximate reference to a big land mark.. The bharatha varsha ends with the Sindhu River, and its catchment basin which leads up to one half of the himalayas..

            there may be slight changes in the references of ancient literature, due to various factors (like invasions, geographic nature etc).. these mountains and surrounding regions were dense forests just 100 years ago..

            /** For God’s sake, you are a brahmana and you are openly speaking asatya. **/

            I am NOT brahmana.. but vellala.. that’s one of the reason i was able to look things from alternate perspective..

            /** Telangana is the colonial creation by colonial persian turks–and you are supporting it. **/
            where is the substantiation? you are just making statements and then projecting it as truths..

            Did the persian turks came and build gramas and nagaras ? NO.. they invaded an already existing dhesam.. the persian name has come from our original name of trilinga..
            Trilinga (sanskrit name) -> Telinga (prakrutham) -> Telingana or Telengana

          • nyaya says:

            “draksharama is a major landmark which is mentioned as eastern boundary in our literatures.. ”

            Which work of traditional literature mentions draksharama as the boundary of Telangana (not telugu country, but telangana desam)?

            Which work of traditional literature even mentions telangana/telangi desam (don’t mention Mahabharata–you were already proven wrong)?

            Draksharamam is mere 30 kms to Kakinada on Bay of Bengal coast. It is approx 130 kms to Telangana border and 250 km to large Telangana town of Khammam.. DRAKSHARAMAM IS NOWHERE NEAR TELANGANA–YOU HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG HERE–ACCEPT IT.

            “I am NOT brahmana.. but vellala.. ”

            Hahaha, then by your own logic, writing these and other articles is not the appropriate jathi dharma for you. It is the place of actual brahmanas then to interpret our ancient texts properly. Funny how on the one hand you advocate for jati based living–but on the other you insist on pursuing brahmana jati’s work. Can you even see the irony??

            A person’s jati is frankly none of my business and shouldn’t impugn view of person’s intelligence, but you people are the one’s obsessing about it, while doing another jati’s karma…this is called hypocrisy…

            “Trilinga (sanskrit name) -> Telinga (prakrutham) -> Telingana or Telengana”

            Wrong!!! Trilinga –>telinga-> TELUGU.

            Here is the source:

            ”The name Telugu, is said to be derived from Trilinga, “the language of the three lingas,”…The Telugu country was called Telingana by the Muhammadans”

            Thus in one swoop we see it is not Telangana that is derived from Trilinga—but Telugu that is derived from Trilinga. We also see that the name telingana was given by the muslims for all Telugu land (not just nizam Hyderabad/telangana). YOU’RE WRONG–accept it

            Even if you are not a brahman, you claim to be a dharmic–so don’t speak asatya. Accept that Telangana is muslim name for Telugu country.

            What’s more, you have provided no sources for your assertion–while I have provided a source.

            http://books.google.com/books?id=yhXRDSgBuL0C&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=telugu+trilinga+srisailam&source=bl&ots=u3xQljR0uZ&sig=NyY7qbCDS1tFoRQiQbwEQ8wzuGk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Oz-IUqnPB-bV2AXk4oHYDA&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=telugu%20trilinga%20srisailam&f=false

    • senthil says:

      @poovannan,

      When you eulogise colonial britshers and abuse our ancient history, everything will appear as comedy.. you are basing every argument of yours based on current Colonial Demarcation.. this is fundamentally flawed..

      • nyaya says:

        You are claiming your false interpretation of Draksharamam as Telangana boundary as “ancient history”–where is your “traditional” source??? Burden of proof is on you not Poovanan since you falsely and ridiculously said Draksharamam is in Telangana–flat out wrong (even as geog approximation).

        British rule created old Hyderabad state–which you are recreating through fake telangana desam. It is you who are eulogising colonial britishers and abusing our ancient history–which clearly shows only andhra desa–no telangana desa. This is obscurantism and propaganda being passed off as “traditional” and “pure vedic”–this is not pure vedic, it is pure turuska like Telangana/Hyderabad state…

        • senthil says:

          @nyaya,

          You are rejecting even kalinga and odra dhesa mentioned in literature, and are claiming both are same.. why?

          also you have NOT provided any proofs to your claim that present day andhra was ONE cultural region.. i challenge you to explain the cultures that you find common among whole andhras??

          • nyaya says:

            “You are rejecting even kalinga and odra dhesa mentioned in literature, and are claiming both are same.. why?”

            I have given you proof above in first two comments on this blog article–you didn’t read–links are all there and they have proven you wrong. Oddhra only 1 name and 1 part of orissa–Kalinga is another name for Orissa and formed major part. Was dominant kingdom which Oriya people still celebrate today–see links comment at very top.

            Your own wiki source said this about Kalinga:”Kalinga forms the sea shore of Orissa state in India.”

            He doesn’t even mention uttarandhra–and this is YOUR source not mine.

            http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/kalinga

            You couldn’t even accept my challenge of point for point rebuttal to my first comment. You gave week long gap while you let vyas distract with his side show.

            You have not even provided 1 traditional source showing telangana desam. Why?

            You yourself said your own map was inaccurate about kalinga. Now I have shown your source gives 2 different locations for Telinga in 2 different maps. But you still use the map as your “traditional proof” for telinga=talavahana=telangana.

            You even ran away from challenge to show non-urdu/turk cultural differences between telangana people and seemandhra people.

            “also you have NOT provided any proofs to your claim that present day andhra was ONE cultural region..”

            Burden of proof is on you not me. You are the one submitting articles to vijayvaani based not on “traditional proofs” but wikipedia maps. I am just commenter

            I have already just now given you a source which debunks you and shows telugu-not telangana–comes from trilinga-. Same source that says this and Telangana came from muslims, says this on same pg. 33:

            “Telugu is called Andhra by Sanskrit writers”. It is even called andhra bhasha “Andhra language”–no mention of “telangana desam” before sultans.

            Three lingas were original marking points of Telugu country/Andhra desa–not “telangana”.That is why you scored self-goal on draksharamam–which is in Coastal Andhra (practically on bay of bengal itself). Telugu spread south–increasing size of Andhra desa.

            Andhra and Telugu have historically been used interchangeably. I have given source with link. You have given neither. I challenge you to give real scholarly source with link.

          • senthil says:

            /** Oddhra only 1 name and 1 part of orissa–Kalinga is another name for Orissa and formed major part.
            **/

            i have given you references which says odra dhesa is different from kalinga dhesa.. yet you make the same idiotic statement as above.. i have clearly pointed you that Modern Orissa state is british creation..

          • nyaya says:

            “you make the same idiotic statement as above..”

            Hahaha, somebody is red-faced after being exposed as ignorant

            Your own source for your imbecilic talavahana-telangana theory said Kalinga is in Orissa. You said kalinga is “unambiguously” uttarandhra–we know who made idiotic statement…YOU!!!

            [Your own wiki source said this about Kalinga:

            ”Kalinga forms the sea shore of Orissa state in India.”

            He doesn’t even mention uttarandhra–and this is YOUR source not mine.

            http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/kalinga%5D

            Kalinga is not uttarandhra. Kalinga is main desam of modern orissa–you’re wrong. Accept it. Don’t whine like a baby, senthil–accept that you were wrong. You’re only embarrassing yourself by losing temper.

  12. vyas says:

    Excellent article again Senthil. People like nyaya are pretty much doing the same blunder that the DK folks are doing in TamilNadu. By associating language with Desam/culture they are making the biggest blunder of our times. In fact the Dravida Desam that these DK idiots are proposing did not constitute a majority of the present day TamilNadu. It consisted of some parts of present day Tamilnadu, Andhra, Karnataka, Kerala and even Orissa. Also many languages were spoken in each of these desams, but it was never considered an identity nor ever represented culture. This holds true for Andhra tribes too. Their tribal culture was just branded as being telugu, the language. Only if you start decoding their lifestyle would you be able to find out where their root culture originated from.
    In addition to this, today we are talking only about the 4 main languages branded as Dravidian languages, but there were about a hundred languages in South India alone. Each of these languages were spoken across various regions by various tribes. They died out for various reasons, the most important amongst them being lack of scripts.
    Languages gained their prominence only after written scripts were developed for the same. Somewhere about 1000 years ago, almost every language used the Brahmi script for writing and only a minuscule number of people knew to read and write them. Language as an entity was not even recognized by people until it was expressed in script form. Even during palm leaf manuscript times language was used only for documentation, but not for education. It was only with the advent of the Europeans that writing became a very important part of education and especially with the advent of printing machines it became a defacto standard to the extent that a person with no knowledge to read/write a language was considered an illiterate (it’s true even today). This one aspect changed the fate of education system in India for years to come. From what I’ve read (I may be wrong, correct me if I’m), the Andhra tribes through whom AP got it’s name, predate the Telugu language by a very long period. Even if we assume that they spoke a somewhat distant dialect of modern Telugu, I don’t know where from the idea of language as culture originates. It is we who link language to culture for the sake of convenience. The culture of the Bharathiya society was always associated with it’s dharma which in turn was linked to varna/jaathi. But again, Jaathi/Kula dharma was not fixated. It was influenced by factors like Kaala (time) and Desha (space). By ignoring Jaathi/Varna we are doing grave injustice to ourselves.

    Now, let me answer some of nyaya’s questions.

    //I did answer it– this is a blatant lie. Both you and vyas completely failed to answer it (see links below): I said, United Andhra conversion was highest because YSR was christian evangelist–he worked with sonia for conversions. What senthil fails to tell you is that muslim percentage higher in telangana.//

    This is not an appropriate reply for my question. If you say YSR was the sole reason for the same, why were the united Andhra people not able to stop it? Assuming that Telangana is not formed but Jagan sworns in as CM for Andhra, what will you people be able to do? You can only keep watching him gain more converts. It is fairly obvious that united Andhra failed to contain conversion activities of just ONE man in just a few years. Had he been alive for a few more years, people like nyaya would have been preaching the Bible instead of the Gita.

    //That is the plan. So the problem was YSR and Congress–not United Andhra.//

    The question is not about who the problem was with. It is about why was united Andhra not able to prevent it.

    //Telangana doesn’t change centralization problems. Only 2 separate states to exploit from Hyderabad–not one state that protects against water disputes.//

    Then bifurcate even further. I’m not proposing bifurcation as a solution for just conversion alone but to regain the rights of minorities within Hinduism too. Again, this solution is not just for Andhra. It’s for other states as well

    //Senthil wants to fight modern war with ancient weapons made in villages. Unless senthil wants to become drona and fight chinese and pakistanis with brahmastra–this is foolish and impractical.//

    There is nothing wrong in using old weapons as long as it works. A swiss army knife can do wonders than a modern nuclear weapon depending on how you use it.

    The problem of religious conversion is pretty serious and no one is denying that. The best strategy to curb conversion (it can never be fully eradicated in a democratic country like India) is to isolate the muslims/christians religiously. There are several ways to do so. Religious and Ethnic isolation are two among them. Religious isolation is exclusive and has always worked to their favor all these years. Ethnic isolation is inclusive but will work against their ideologies. Ethnic isolation will help override religious aspirations by prioritizing native cultures, thereby sidelining religious beliefs. It also brings in a sense of ownership and responsibility. A similar move was initiated by RSS a few years ago which called for nationalization of Islam/Christianity, but it significantly failed because RSS emphasized religion in it’s agenda. The most important side effect of ethnic isolation is that it will de-abrahamize Hinduism itself. This aspect of it is very important since today Hinduism is seen as a global religion emerging to challenge Islam/Christianity. People fail to understand that Hinduism is indeed a collection of thousands of individual dharmic mathams. Abrahamization of Sanatana Dharma is even more dangerous than conversion. Hinduism under the umbrella of a religious institution has lost it’s sanctity. The course that Hinduism is taking today is suicidal. It’s proving itself to be yet another child of Abrahamic cult. The irony is that Christians and Muslims can be happy in a way since even if their religions die out over the course of time, they can be happy that they have Hinduism which will bear their ideologies. People fail to understand that Hinduism’s pluralism does not rely on it’s gods’ but rather in it’s dharma. By killing Jaathi/Kulam/Varna and their respective dharma, but just having multiple gods, we are going to achieve nothing. Our gods will all be void without their kulams and their corresponding dharma.

    • Proud Indian says:

      We need healthy debate… Where we unearth facts with solid points.. If everyone contribute objectively rather being subjective
      Or create a question and disprove/prove — in debate it is called answering oneself
      Or being subjective… pple loose the focus on fact… if the message to be made clear its better to be Objective…

      Its worth reading/learning/participating. We are always a winner even if our points are disproved… as collectively we learn our history and enlighten ourselves and others….

      Hope one group discussion experience helps few participants here..
      12 yrs back when forum discussion was new in India, we got into world religious discussion, we had to unearth available facts in net/holy works/interlinked practices , preaches/ seek scholars/authentication with our own effort to prove points…
      This effort took nearly 2 years. Initially there were participants who were abusive/de-trackers to prove their point(vithanda vaadi). At the end who all really want to find facts remained in that long exercise. The group was from all walks of life and religion.

      Its different matter that It was unanimously proved Sanatana Dharma(not hindu religion) is the root of all practices and later across the globe we have network to contribute for Medical camps/education camps by experts.

      Wish the effort of each one is productive rather than abusive/subjective.

  13. nyaya says:

    @Vyas/anon (way to finally take the mask/fake sn off),

    “It is about why was united Andhra not able to prevent it.”

    That’s like asking why united India couldn’t prevent foreigner Fonia from taking power. The problem is not unity of people but loss of morality among people. Hence both culture and administration matter.

    Language is critical to transmitting culture. Vyas obviously can’t understand this despite million discourses. Then again, he can’t even understand sanskrit properly because he keeps confusing kulachar for culture–when culture actually translates to samskriti.

    “There is nothing wrong in using old weapons as long as it works. A swiss army knife can do wonders than a modern nuclear weapon depending on how you use it.”

    And with that, you have shown how utterly ignorant and unrepentantly foolish you are. Instead of just talking why don’t you go and fight then, and show everyone how to use a swiss army knife against nuclear weapons…hahaha. Oh wait, that’s right, this is where jati-dharma comes in handy for you. Easier to play chest thumping navel gazing nimrod than logical and selfless soldier.

    Ultimately, you had your chance to debate on the other blog post, but you lost when you used obscene profanity and made an elementary school level mistake on Mahabharata. You neither have the knowledge nor integrity to be fit for any sort of debate. Like senthil, you too are full of ahankar and put your ego before truth.

    • vyas says:

      //but you lost when you used obscene profanity and made an elementary school level mistake on Mahabharata//

      When you do not know how to answer straight to a question you keep pointing to the same mistake. Irrespective of my mistake in Mahabharatha, the message I wanted to convey remains the same but you keep exhibiting your cheap attitude by pointing to the same mistake again and again. I can’t help.

      //That’s like asking why united India couldn’t prevent foreigner Fonia from taking power. The problem is not unity of people but loss of morality among people. Hence both culture and administration matter. //

      How long are you going to keep saying this? Today you are saying it for YSR/Sonia and tomorrow you’ll say the same for Jagan too until the entire Andhra is converted. The problem with conversion is not about lack of morality, rather it’s lack of decentralization. Most of the conversions happen out of exploitation. Impoverishment resulted in weakened societies which in turn led to large scale conversions. Your united Andhra govt failed to address this over a period of time which led to such a chaos. Again, this is not just a fault of AP but with other states as well. In TN it’s not that easy to carry out such massive conversions as in AP since the Jaathi base is quiet powerful. The irony is that TN is probably the no. 1 state with respect to the number of protests against jaathi. Even today conversion is not possible in certain areas of AP where the Jaathi base is powerful. So pls don’t put people’s morality at stake for the fault of the government.

      //Language is critical to transmitting culture. Vyas obviously can’t understand this despite million discourses. Then again, he can’t even understand sanskrit properly because he keeps confusing kulachar for culture–when culture actually translates to samskriti.//

      Culture is transmitted by karma (action) and not by language. Language just makes the job easier. Many of our rishis never talked but created so many rishi paramparas that consisted of various aachaarams which were eventually followed by the people belonging to that parampara.

      I don’t understand why you are so particular about translating kalachaar to culture. The very word “culture” itself is vague and cannot convey the full meaning. Trying to translate sanskrit words to English and fighting for it will only lead to unnecessary arguments. Kalaachaar is what it is, irrespective of whether it corresponds to culture or not. Samskriti is a much broader term and cannot be used for granular entities.

      //And with that, you have shown how utterly ignorant and unrepentantly foolish you are. Instead of just talking why don’t you go and fight then, and show everyone how to use a swiss army knife against nuclear weapons…hahaha. Oh wait, that’s right, this is where jati-dharma comes in handy for you. Easier to play chest thumping navel gazing nimrod than logical and selfless soldier.//

      I think you’ve not taken even a moment to understand the crux of what I said but instead pounding upon the example I gave. What else can I say?

      //Ultimately, you had your chance to debate on the other blog post, but you lost when you used obscene profanity and made an elementary school level mistake on Mahabharata//

      Okay, go ahead and keep pontificating about the same. You want to do it a million more times? I have absolutely no issues whatsoever. You’ll only keep damaging your dignity by doing so.

      //You neither have the knowledge nor integrity to be fit for any sort of debate. Like senthil, you too are full of ahankar and put your ego before truth.//

      You cannot make conclusions upon our integrity my friend. By the way I think you’re yet to come out of your win/lose phobia.

      • nyaya says:

        ” The problem with conversion is not about lack of morality”

        In a democracy, Yatha praja, tatha raja

        “I can’t help.”

        You can’t help because you have neither the requisite knowledge or decency. Your repugnant behavior on other threads with other commenters alone is proof of that.

        Someone who uses profanity and makes up his own facts about how swiss army knives are superior to nuclear weapons, has no integrity or dignity to begin with. You have been repeatedly lectured on simple concepts such as how culture translates to samskriti (multiple people have confirmed this) and how language transmits culture. Your inability to understand this is not my problem. As they say, you can’t wake someone up who is pretending to sleep.

        I am not damaging anything about myself, only pointing out to the readers how you have no knowledge or shame–hence you continue to serve as attack dog for senthil long after both of you have been discredited on telangana So when you yourselves don’t behave like intellectuals or good faith people looking to learn, conversation with you is pointless, and debate with you is an easy victory. I gave you a chance on the other thread, and you behaved obscenely. End of story.

        • vyas says:

          //You can’t help because you have neither the requisite knowledge or decency//

          You are not the deciding authority on evaluating my knowledge. And pls don’t teach decency to others. You’ve been the personification of indecency throughout the debate.

          //Someone who uses profanity and makes up his own facts about how swiss army knives are superior to nuclear weapons, has no integrity or dignity to begin with//

          The problem is you have no absolutely capability to understand the inner meanings of a statement. You just gaze around the surface and start countering people with that. My use of the swiss army knife example was merely to convey the methods used for curbing conversion which you are never going to understand.

          //You have been repeatedly lectured on simple concepts such as how culture translates to samskriti (multiple people have confirmed this) and how language transmits culture//

          I’ve repeatedly given counter lectures about the same which you don’t seem to listen. You’re yet to answer my question that “If language transmits culture why do two people speaking the same language have completely different cultures?” Culture (no matter what language you define that with) is specific to the jaathi/kulam and place of settlement. Language is the least important. I can transmit my culture even if don’t speak a single word in my entire lifetime.

          //I am not damaging anything about myself, only pointing out to the readers how you have no knowledge or shame–hence you continue to serve as attack dog for senthil long after both of you have been discredited on telangana//

          If you think only what you possess is “knowledge” then I’ll better consider myself an illiterate. Let me continue to be an attack dog for Senthil and I have no issues with that.

          //conversation with you is pointless, and debate with you is an easy victory//

          Looks like you’ve still not come out of your obsession. Only obsessionists keep talking about victory.

          • nyaya says:

            “You’ve been the personification of indecency throughout the debate.”

            Tough talk from someone who obscenely laced his comments with profanity and had behaved like degenerate with previous commenters in previous threads…but oh, that’s right, truth and fact are not the specialties of the blogger and his acolytes.

            “The problem is you have no absolutely capability to understand the inner meanings of a statement. ”

            You don’t even understand the meaning of basic words like culture and basic facts about the mahabharata. It’s truly a pity you can’t even understand just how badly you’re embarrassing yourself here.

            “My use of the swiss army knife example was merely to convey the methods used for curbing conversion ”

            What a deceitful joke. The comment is there for readers to see clearly.

            “You’re yet to answer my question that “If language transmits culture why do two people speaking the same language have completely different cultures?” ”

            And you clearly don’t understand the point. The point is the language itself evolves to convey certain concepts. Hence untranslatables: atman is not the same as “soul”, yoga is not the same as “exercises”. But despite repetition, you still can’t understand. You also recalcitrantly insisted that culture translates to kulachar–when you were repeatedly hauled up over the coals for such blatant ignorance. So you’re done.

            ” Language is the least important. ”

            Yes, get everyone to speak urdu and english–guaranteed way to return to jatis/kulachar–hahaha.

            “If you think only what you possess is “knowledge” then I’ll better consider myself an illiterate. ”

            You’re already considered an illiterate–you don’t even know basic facts of Mahabharata.

            “Looks like you’ve still not come out of your obsession. ”

            Tough talk from the lesser half an undynamic duo that insists on asinine notions such as kalinga is “unambiguously” uttarandhra long after being disproven.

            “Only obsessionists keep talking about victory.”

            Only liars and charlatans insist on opinions long after the facts have disproven them.

  14. Surya Ramachandran says:

    // By associating language with Desam/culture they are making the biggest blunder of our times.//
    The issue with Telugu language and Tamil language was different. Tamil language case was taken up by the Christain missionaries, to promote a distinct Dravidian culture, different from North India. Please dont compare any linguistic unification with formation of Tamil Nadu.

    • vyas says:

      The whole point is that linguistic unification is done merely for convenience in a society which is divided at the grass roots level. The problem with us is that we are looking at our society from top down. We should instead look at it from bottom up, only then we’ll get a true picture. By propagating the Chola Kings as Tamil Kings and ignoring the Pallavas just because they promoted sanskrit, we are doing a great blunder. Similar approach holds true for other states as well. I’m asking you to focus on the people and their lineage but you are focusing on the language. If I’m right, the Andhra tribes migrated from the North to the South. Do we know for sure that they spoke Telugu about 5000 years ago? But we can say for sure that Andhra tribes did exist as a lineage even before that. Recently, there were some cave paintings were found in TamilNadu which is dated to be somewhere between 10000-12000BC. It portrays a cult that’s still followed in tribal areas across north/south. I don’t know what kind of a role does linguistics play here.

  15. vyas says:

    //You don’t even understand the meaning of basic words like culture and basic facts about the mahabharata//

    Looks like you’ve run out of points and keep repeating the same old slogan again and again. Keep doing, I’ll never lose my cool.

    //What a deceitful joke. The comment is there for readers to see clearly.//

    Yeah, but you’ve to *think* to understand it. For a person who has lost the ability to do so, I can’t help but only explain. If you still don’t understand I can only pity you.

    //And you clearly don’t understand the point. The point is the language itself evolves to convey certain concepts. Hence untranslatables: atman is not the same as “soul”, yoga is not the same as “exercises”. But despite repetition, you still can’t understand. You also recalcitrantly insisted that culture translates to kulachar–when you were repeatedly hauled up over the coals for such blatant ignorance. So you’re done.//

    You still did not answer my question. Me and Senthil speak the same language but our culture (or whatever term you want to replace it with) is completely different, right from the food we eat to the way we live. If you ask me to show one thing common between us, it’s only the language, rest all are different. I don’t understand how come the same language can evolve so differently to convey different messages to different set of people.

    The rest of the comments that you pointed out are all given in Rajiv’s articles. Looks like you are caught up in a mess with Rajiv’s ideas. Come out of it and analyze what we say. Don’t keep vomiting his comments.

    //Yes, get everyone to speak urdu and english–guaranteed way to return to jatis/kulachar–hahaha//

    I have no issues with the same. As a matter of fact language is just a bunch of sounds and all languages must have originated from a single source. But I’ll still vouch for being multi-lingual since I have enormous respect for all languages

    //You’re already considered an illiterate–you don’t even know basic facts of Mahabharata.//

    If not knowing the basics of Mahabharatha is considered illiteracy, then according to you the people who lived before Mahabharatha period must all be considered illiterates right? My dear friend literacy is not bound to texts in this country. It’s bound to dharma. There were billions of people who lived in this country for thousands of years both before and after Mahabharatha, not knowing even an inch of it but still were literates. You are doing nothing but Abrahamizing Sanatana Dharma by projecting Ramayana and Mahabharatha as THE texts for the so called Hindus.

    //Only liars and charlatans insist on opinions long after the facts have disproven them.//

    The irony is you keep writing about being disproven without actually doing so.

  16. nyaya says:

    “Keep doing, I’ll never lose my cool.”

    LOL! You already did and everyone saw your foul-mouthed behavior. Too late!

    “For a person who has lost the ability to do so”

    You never had the ability, that’s why you accuse others of indecency when you’ve been behaving like a degenerate and using obscenities. Cognitive dissonance, much?…uh oh, you’ll probably have to google that one too, haha.

    “I don’t understand how come the same language can evolve so differently to convey different messages to different set of people.”If not knowing the basics of Mahabharatha is considered illiteracy, then according to you the people who lived before Mahabharatha period must all be considered illiterates right?”

    And yet, here you are criticizing my understanding. You claim swiss army knives to be superior to nuclear weapons–I think we know who has the problems with analysis.

    I already addressed your point. Because you’re a cognitive deficient you can’t see the connection between language and culture. Sufficient explanation has been provided. But as with kulachar not translating to culture, you still don’t get it…because you can’t get it…not your fault, beta…you were born that way

    ” Come out of it and analyze what we say. Don’t keep vomiting his comments.”

    I have oh senseless one. I’m using my arguments against telangana, not Rajiv Malhotra’s. Of course, to be able to see that, you actually have to understand logic–which you don’t.

    “I have no issues with the same. ”

    Of course you don’t, you’re an ignorant person who fails to see the importance of sanskrit.

    “If not knowing the basics of Mahabharatha is considered illiteracy, then according to you the people who lived before Mahabharatha period must all be considered illiterates right?”

    Nope, that’s a non-sequitur (you’ll have to google that one too…). Each text is given per the needs of the era. Ramayana alone is not enough in Kali yuga, hence Lord Narayana gave Mahabharata. Simple concepts beyond a simple mind….tsk tsk

    “You are doing nothing but Abrahamizing Sanatana Dharma by projecting Ramayana and Mahabharatha as THE texts for the so called Hindus.”

    Again, you are proving your illiteracy again. I never said they were the only texts. But they are important for giving people context to understand Dharma. It is you who shamelessly and barbarically downplayed them.

    Your recalcitrant argumentativeness only proves you were never interested in learning, only in insulting other people as you did in other thread to other commenters, only you didn’t know what to do when someone gave you back double, so you degenerated into an profanity spewing parrot, repeating the same thoughtless points. Now you’re whining like a baby about how I use your own words against your to expose your ignorance. If you behave like a degenerate you get treated like one…

    • vyas says:

      //LOL! You already did and everyone saw your foul-mouthed behavior. Too late!//

      Yeah, that was a reactionary one only. Have I lost cool after that? Since you didn’t show any signs of profanity lately I didn’t show any from my side too.

      //Cognitive dissonance, much?…uh oh, you’ll probably have to google that one too, haha.//

      Fine. Looks like you failed to get your admission in Oxford University English literature course, so you are showing your English language skills here. Nothing wrong with it. Keep doing. All the best. Bring in even more new words to the debate. Nothing wrong in learning it.

      /I already addressed your point//

      You never addressed my point ever but keep pontificating that you did. Cheap tactics. Keep going.

      // I never said they were the only texts. //

      But that’s what you meant. You brand people who don’t know Mahabharatha as illiterates, just like the pope does it with the Bible.

      //Of course you don’t, you’re an ignorant person who fails to see the importance of sanskrit.//

      Sanskrit alone is not enough which is what I keep telling.

      //Your recalcitrant argumentativeness only proves you were never interested in learning, only in insulting other people as you did in other thread to other commenters, only you didn’t know what to do when someone gave you back double, so you degenerated into an profanity spewing parrot, repeating the same thoughtless points. Now you’re whining like a baby about how I use your own words against your to expose your ignorance. If you behave like a degenerate you get treated like one…//

      In my opinion you never ever gave a solid response to any of my comments. You keep vomiting the comments of stupid modern gurus who are the real destroyers of Sanatana Dharma. By detaching dharma from it’s aashrama all you are doing is making Sanatana dharma yet another branch of Abrahamic tree.

      • nyaya says:

        “Have I lost cool after that? ”

        AHAHAHA. “Have I lost cool after that?”, “Was I wrong after that!”, “Haven’t I started using my head after that”…”haven’t i debated after I lost that…”

        Ohhhhhhhhh vyas, you really are just too much fun. You don’t even see how you embarrass and undercut yourself.

        “Since you didn’t show any signs of profanity lately I didn’t show any from my side too.”

        That’s cause I didn’t use profanity at all, beta, you did. Are you going to lie about this too? Poor pathetic vyas….

        ” Looks like you failed to get your admission in Oxford University English literature course”

        Awww, poor vyas, projecting his own sad life experiences on to others to feel better about himself….

        “You never addressed my point ever”

        I did, looks like you can’t read. The very reason i used malhotra was to show the power of language, i.e. untranslatables. You on the other hand “never addressed my point ever” about national language and how orders could be given in 3000 dialects on battlefield. You merely wriggled away squealing “I don’t care what language even english is fine”. FUnny how you don’t mind that but national language is colonial…more cognitive dissonance!

        “But that’s what you meant. ”

        No, you’re putting words in my mouth, because you can’t argue based on facts. So in your frustration you have to lie and say “oh you meant this”….bechara!

        “Sanskrit alone is not enough which is what I keep telling.”

        No, you want to replace it with urdu and english–you already told us that…

        “In my opinion you never ever gave a solid response to any of my comments.”

        The facts are there on the other thread for readers to see. You’re the one who made umpteen errors on culture translating to kulachar and even the mahabharata.
        So your opinion of my answers is worthless, when all you know is degenerate profanity and pigheaded argument without logic…

        By all means, keep squealing every hour on the hour. All you’re doing is proving senthi’s desperation now that he has been cornered on telangana. Readers can see this plainly.

        • vyas says:

          //That’s cause I didn’t use profanity at all, beta, you did. Are you going to lie about this too? Poor pathetic vyas….//

          Depends on how you define profanity. My comments were only reactionary. As long as you behave well in the forum, I guarantee that I will too,

          //I did, looks like you can’t read. The very reason i used malhotra was to show the power of language, i.e. untranslatables. You on the other hand “never addressed my point ever” about national language and how orders could be given in 3000 dialects on battlefield. You merely wriggled away squealing “I don’t care what language even english is fine”. FUnny how you don’t mind that but national language is colonial…more cognitive dissonance!//

          You’re still running away from my basic questions. If language represents culture, then me and Senthil should have had the same culture but we are completely contradictory in our lifestyle. Why? Why? Why? Your 3000 dialects thing is unrelated and is only a logistic problem. With access to modern technology you can resolve that even if you have 3million dialects.

          //No, you want to replace it with urdu and english–you already told us that…//

          I never said that. Now you are putting words into my mouth. I’ve been repeatedly saying that every regional language is equally important. I only said that the focus should not be on the language but with the paramparya.

          //So your opinion of my answers is worthless, when all you know is degenerate profanity and pigheaded argument without logic…//

          My profanity was in direct reaction to yours. So you are the root cause.

          //By all means, keep squealing every hour on the hour. All you’re doing is proving senthi’s desperation now that he has been cornered on telangana. Readers can see this plainly.//

          Don’t keep calling the readers for your help. Looks like you are afraid.

          • nyaya says:

            “Depends on how you define profanity. My comments were only reactionary. As long as you behave well in the forum”

            AHAHAHA, best joke ever. Everyone can see that you don’t know how to behave here or even on threads with other commenters (swamy blog post), that’s why I’ve chastised you like an errant child. Profanity is profanity, and you used it, I didn’t. Even now used it on the other Telangana thread “bullsh*t”. So you just undercut yourself again, and you can’t even see it!!!!

            “You’re still running away from my basic questions. If language represents culture, then me and Senthil ”

            No, I’m not, you’re just cognitively deficient to not see the cultural effect of language, which is why you ran away from the untranslatables point I made. You’re also the one who failed to properly answer my national language question. So we both know who’s running away. Scared, beta??

            “Why? Why? Why? Your 3000 dialects thing is unrelated and is only a logistic problem. With access to modern technology you can resolve that even if you have 3million dialects.”

            AHAHAHA, vyas, you even managed to top yourself in utterly vacuous comments!!! “Modern technology will resolve giving battlefield orders in 3000 dialects”–so no need for nationall language!!! Ahahaha, most asinine answer of the year–kudos!!

            Only problem is this technology hasn’t existed for past 60+ years. So those of us living in the practical world know we needed and still need a single language. Navel gazers like you who care more about your own opinions than real solutions, just flap your gums with empty wind to spare your baseless egos.

            “I never said that. Now you are putting words into my mouth”

            Ohhhh, but it’s ok if you put words in my mouth and say I meant Mahabharata and Ramayana are the only texts–hypocrisy, much???

            // I never said they were the only texts. //
            But that’s what you meant.

            It stings when you get a taste of your own medicine, doesn’t it? Besides, you yourself said language doesn’t matter for sandhya, so I think we know “what you meant”…

            “My profanity was in direct reaction to yours. So you are the root cause.”

            I didn’t swear, beta, you did. Your degenerate use of it only shows how frustrated and scared you are of me. Looks like you need to be a good little baccha and go back to school to learn the difference. Ja, beta, ja.

            “Don’t keep calling the readers for your help”

            I don’t need to–you’re the one having an aneurysm after tying yourself in logical knots. You even broke your own point about not swearing anymore when you just swore on the other thread!!!

            Poor vyas, he’s being outclassed and is contradicting himself in apoplectic despair!

  17. nyaya says:

    “Let me continue to be an attack dog for Senthil and I have no issues with that.”

    Unsurprising and unimportant. All it does is prove that senthil can’t argue logically on his own merits, so has to rely on you to spew profanity and insult commenters. It’s what you’ve been doing on other threads.

    Now that he’s cornered with his hilarious self-goals on kalinga and draksharamam, he has to release your from his kennel here too.

    • vyas says:

      //Unsurprising and unimportant. All it does is prove that senthil can’t argue logically on his own merits, so has to rely on you to spew profanity and insult commenters. It’s what you’ve been doing on other threads. //

      When you are replying to me you should atleast have the courtesy not to drag another person. While I agree with Senthil on a lot of his views, I do disagree with a lot of his other views too. By dragging both of us into the same argument, you are clearly showing your attitude to WIN. When you are not able to provide a convincing answer to me, you drag him mindlessly and say that I’m defeated, and when you are not able to do so with him, you drag me and say that he is defeated. If all you want is to Win the debate, then go ahead and announce yourself as the winner. Nobody is going to lose anything by doing so.

      • nyaya says:

        Hahaha, you yourself just admitted you have no issues being Senthil’s attack dog, now you are whining about bringing him in–this entire post and debate is about him!

        He is as over-opinionated as you are, since both of you pick your opinions first and facts later. That’s why no number of facts is enough to correct your mutual foolishness. You both just repeat the same arguments like parrots, as though new facts have no effect.

        You impugned yourself when you had to fall back on profanity to save your baseless pride.

        You cannot wake up someone pretending to sleep. I have defeated both you and senthil whether you would admit it or not. All the logic is there and all the facts are there–only your sense of reason and shame are lacking–what to do–you were not blessed with these…

        By continuing this pointless argument which is not even on telangana, all you’re doing is proving that senthil desperately needs you to play attack dog to distract the reader from the deconstruction of his ridiculous theory. So keep going, beta…It’s fun to watch you embarrass yourself and to read Senthil’s puerile responses to my rebuttals”.

  18. Zed says:

    Oh ignorance, ignorance… I warned you last time not to tread into this topic.

    The demand for or opposition to a separate state today is not due to some made up deshams that you propose. The kids setting fire to themselves or to property on either side of the debate don’t give a crap to your concept of desham.

    The issue is simple: when Uttarkhand or Jharkhand wanted to separate, it was a very amicable settlement. The administrative regions were divided, due process was followed and nobody was harmed. Nobody had to die for it.

    This one is different: You only have to listen to some of the speeches made by Telangana leaders. It is not about division of state. It is a physical threat to lives and properties of those people who do not close their business and move back to Andhra. Many of these people are the only source of income to their family back in the villages. If the division becomes a reality there will be a huge loss to the incomes of these people and their future.
    I am sure, this fits well within your deshams, urban/rural concept but unfortunately, the people of Andhra are pretty pissed off right now to be even talking to you. They have no assurance that their interests will be protected. They have no assurance that a new capital will be developed for them to compensate for loss of capital city that was built using mostly their sweat & blood. They have absolutely no assurance that their lives will be protected in case of a separate Telangana. Hence the massive blow back. They are burning down the statues of the gandhis, they are not letting any central government work and they better not know that a tamil boy like you have been dissing their demands.

    And by the way, even your tamil brothers are paying protection money to the TRS goons in hyderabad. You might not be singing your deshams song when it is your relatives have to pick up and leave too. Or, maybe you think it is good that they go back to their villages in your tamil land. But don’t forget, to do that they have to pass thru andhra lands which is now on boil with very angry andhra boys….jjust saying.

    So let’s see,
    1. you have no idea of Telugu language and cannot understand the intent or the hate speech from TRS leaders about what this Telangana movement is all about.
    2. You are ignorant that the word telangana came about in nizam time due to the very derisive “telangi-belangi” term.
    3. You are unaware of the Kakatiya empire which rules pretty much all of modern Andhra Pradesh, it was the capital that the rest of Andhras lost, not just a desham.
    4. You have no clue that there have been very violent Telangana and Jai Andhra agitations that affected many students only 40 years back in which the leaders simply used the movement to become. Now that they have next generation of suckers to play with, the same game is being played again.
    5. And… of course, you being the expert, you juxtapose this macabre demand, nay, an extortion with the ancient concept of Deshams.

    I have to ask you, what is your dharma and where is it? What will become of it when people will be denied jobs and their houses burnt down and they are called outsiders/settlers in their own homeland?

    You could have approached it in a totally different way.
    How about those really interested in separation declare a long term goal? How about saying that, say by 2025 the state will be separated and in the meantime a new capital will be built for the separate state? How about assurance that nobody will be forced to move? How about a 5 year timeline to discuss any pending issues of separation?
    If that happens, this division, as desired by people from Telangana districts will be amicable and peaceful like it happened with Uttarakhand and Jharkhand.
    Instead, you see people wanting a separate state today and not wanting to part with hyderabad “even for a day”.
    And we have your sick concept of justifying it with deshams or what not.

    • vyas says:

      //The demand for or opposition to a separate state today is not due to some made up deshams that you propose//

      They are not made up dhesams. They have been clearly documented. Also the point is not about the accuracy of the geography of those dhesams but about putting an end to the linguistic division of states. We recommend this not just for Andhra but for other states as well. All we are saying is that Telangana is the stepping stone for such bifurcations. There are many such bifurcation requests already in line and they’ll soon raise their heads in the form of protests.

      // It is a physical threat to lives and properties of those people who do not close their business and move back to Andhra. Many of these people are the only source of income to their family back in the villages. If the division becomes a reality there will be a huge loss to the incomes of these people and their future.//

      Rewind back to 1953. Did we not face such issues when linguistic states were formed? In fact so many telugu speaking businessmen in TamilNadu were significantly affected during those days. Dharmically speaking Chennai itself should have gone to Andhra since it was entirely developed by the telugu speaking Nayakkars, but these Tamil people grabbed it. In 1953 there was a tough fight for Chennai and Tirupathi between TN and AP. Finally they reached an agreement that Tirupathi will go to Andhra and Chennai to TamilNadu. I’m glad atleast Tirupathi went to AP. The DK goons would have ruined Tirupathi had that been in TN. Such things always happen with any division and an amicable solution needs to be found out for the same.

      //And by the way, even your tamil brothers are paying protection money to the TRS goons in hyderabad//

      What can we do for that? In my opinion some VIP folks in TN badly want this bifurcation to happen so that their voices for bifurcation will get strengthened in the near future.

      //But don’t forget, to do that they have to pass thru andhra lands which is now on boil with very angry andhra boys….jjust saying.//

      You sound as if you are voluntarily threatening us :-)

      //What will become of it when people will be denied jobs and their houses burnt down and they are called outsiders/settlers in their own homeland?//

      The same thing happened when linguistic states were formed. There is no point in shedding crocodile tears now.

      //How about those really interested in separation declare a long term goal? //

      It’s akin to setting a goal to end reservation, which will never happen. Ambedkar did set 50yrs for reservation but we are a decade past that and still going strong with reservations with even more quotas created.

      //How about assurance that nobody will be forced to move?//

      Such things are not practically possible. Some groups will always be affected. The way united Andhra handled certain things cannot just be mimic’d on to Telangana. This will certainly affect some minorities and they’ll have to work out solutions to get past that.

      //How about a 5 year timeline to discuss any pending issues of separation?//

      I believe the protests for separate telangana has been going on for a couple of decades. I don’t know what people were doing all these years. In fact I don’t remember seeing any fiery protests for united Andhra until very recently. it only occurs to me that they were waiting for bifurcation to happen and protesting just to show off. Telangana protests have been massive all through the years but counter protests were very weak until very recently. Whatever said and done, now that bifurcation is done, amicable solution needs to be reached on both sides, no second opinion about that.

      //Instead, you see people wanting a separate state today and not wanting to part with hyderabad “even for a day”.//

      Is your problem with bifurcation as a whole or just with hyderabad alone?

      // And we have your sick concept of justifying it with deshams or what not.//

      Again you are getting back to the same old discussion. The concept of dhesams needs to be used only as a guideline. Nobody is asking you to create a replica of the 56 ancient dhesams. On the other hand one needs to understand the method that was used to form those dhesams and use the same logic to bifurcate the states of India. Linguistic bifurcation has simply failed to serve the interests of the people and that idea needs to be thrown out. We need to look and understand our nation from a cultural perspective and not from a linguistic perspective.

      Finally, now that bifurcation is sanctioned there is no point in talking about united AP. KCR is simply not going to step back. The leaders of both the states should sit and hold talks with the central govt to find out solutions that has the least impact on both the states. As you mentioned there has been enormous money that has been poured into hyderabad and other telangana regions by united Andhra. All these needs to be sorted out as well through talks. It’s too late but better late than never.

      • nyaya says:

        “They are not made up dhesams. They have been clearly documented. ”

        Haha, yeah, by wikipedia maps that senthil himself criticized as inaccurate on Kalinga and that openly said no reference to telingas in mahabharata. This is “fieldwork”. What a joke!

  19. nyaya says:

    @ Senthil, your deafening silence on getting draksharamam is very telling. Other people have noticed this blunder too.

    Certainly, one who has no understanding of Telangana’s geography and history has no credibility in supporting its validity–least of all on traditional desam grounds. So that’s a long list of blunders now, from talavahana-telinga to kalinga=uttarandhra to now saying draksharamam is in Telangana (what a whopper that was). It’s clear neither readers nor vijayvaani can take your article seriously…

    and your silence is tantamount to a forfeit…

    • Zed says:

      Take it easy.
      In spite of my criticism, I think Senthil makes a very good and a valid point. My criticism is limited to the fact that he is juxtaposing the desha concept on the worst possible example he could find.
      The fact that Senthil has gotten his geography, his culture and his events wrong is obvious and you don’t have to keep beating your head upon it. We all make mistakes. I see Senthil’s mistakes (so obvious to ignore) but I am willing to see beyond that and take a long term historical view.

      I have absolutely no issue with the fact that there could have been multiple desams, but why Andhra and why now? It is very inhuman to encourage the disaster that is going to happen and justify it on basis of jati , desam concept which in reality is not even a valid example here.

      As an example, when the partition was about to happen, all the congress leaders assured hindus in what is now west pakistan that their lives and properties would be safe. Even worse some of those fellow assured people that the border was going to be west of their villages/towns and they don’t even have to move. When the partition finally hit, these same leaders ran away to india letting their supporters back as sitting ducks for the moslem mobs. That little fact is obviously suppressed by congressi fellows today. How do you think ik gujral, manmohan and all who were born in what is currently pakistan ended up here? gujral’s father actually signed up for pakistan and was a big supporter of it due to his commie ideology. It is a shame his son ends up becoming india’s prime minister.

      A big difference here is that Andhra people are not some idiot duffers like punjabis or sindhis or worse, like bengalis. They were quiet till now because there were assurances made to them about their safety. Once it looked like those assurances were not going to hold, they showed their own political leaders what they intend to do with them.

      What good is a desam when you cannot guarantee safety of people who conduct business & commerce?
      If Senthil’s position is that Andhra people should leave Hyderabad and go back to their original districts, then obviously there can be no agreement with him on any count. Because, the same argument can be held against Chennai, Mumbai and Delhi. That argument is very immature and holds no water.

      If Senthil’s position is that smaller states make better administrative units and are more suited to the Jatis, fair enough; let the separation happen, but let it happen amicably. Let it happen in a way where nobody’s home has to be looted in Hyderabad. Unfortunately, given the utterances of the politicians from Telangana, it does not seem to be the case. As a first step for division, Telangana is obligated to pay for the new capital of Andhra. How can they pay if they are so poor? And if they are not poor and doing well, why complain about discrimination?

      A long time ago 5 brothers were willing to settle for meager 5 villages with their 100 cousins just to practice their kula dharma. Unfortunately, the cousins in Hastinapura saw things differently and that brought on war.
      Today Andhra people are willing to settle for just their lives & property. But even that is being denied by idiots in Delhi. Want to take a guess what this is going to bring on?

      If your dharma means i lose my property, my prosperity that was hard earned, then I say that your dharma better get prepared for no man at no time will give up his hard earned wealth.

      Dharma prohibited kings from illegally seizing property from hardworking people. As I understand it, it actually made it a duty of the king to protect the property of his commerce running class from dacoits, bandits & thieves.
      The dharma you are advocating is total opposite, a perversion.

      • nyaya says:

        [Your comment was rather meandering in who the audience was, so I'm going to assume the "you" (as in "the dharma you are advocating") was in the singular, and directed at me. (if not, please ignore the snarky remarks which would naturally be omitted in the future).]

        Uh, maybe you should read the entire thread of the 1st Telangana post before playing public editor.

        It’s not for nothing Lakshman himself got fed up with senthil’s lack of honesty–and you’re welcome to take a look at vyasa2’s increasingly frustrated twitter feed due to senthil’s stubbornness.

        Also, don’t make assumptions about people before understanding their positions. For two weeks I have tried explaining nicely, and switched to debate mode only when necessary. Even recently I gave vyas another shot at good faith discussion despite his prior prolific use of profanity. But not admitting when you made errors–especially when they are mounting and obvious–only harms one’s credibility–and (more importantly) the causes that are claimed to be espoused. This is not the way to conduct public dialogue.

        “The dharma you are advocating is total opposite, a perversion.”

        If you want to ignore history and pervert dharma with this jati obsessed approach, conflating and restricting dharma with and to kulachar, that’s your business–just don’t make pretense to having it right and don’t make assumptions about “the dharma [I am] advocating”

        Nowhere have I said anything abusive about jatis, it is jati-obsession I have criticized–so I would recommend you avoid relying on the talking points of senthil and his acolytes and read my comments in full before them before criticizing them. I understand very clearly that jatis are important to people and serve a purpose–but they are not the panacea to all the ills of society, and they certainly don’t mark all there is to dharma–that should be obvious to all thinking people.

        “The fact that Senthil has gotten his geography, his culture and his events wrong is obvious and you don’t have to keep beating your head upon it. ”

        But people who project themselves as intellectuals and so-called “cultural revivalists” have a responsibility to accept and propound the truth–especially when they market these mistakes as “pure vedic”/”pure dharmic”.

        Instead of graciously accepting error and making a good faith correction (like a responsible opinion-leader), Senthil doubled down, evaded, and sic’ed his minion on me unleashing abusive and increasingly nonsensical remarks that were patently illogical–just to run out the clock and distract readers from the mistakes (this was also a common tactic on other commenters elsewhere on the blog). I’m not asking Senthil to change his opinion–telangana is going to happen regardless. Only to correct his supporting facts so as not to mis/disinform readers and give oil to the owaisi fire.

        I don’t believe in commandeering other people’s blogs (it is only the shameless recalcitrance of a certain discredited commenter that has produced such a comment load from me). In fact, I’ve only restricted my comments to the telangana posts (despite my disdain for the other ones), because everyone has the right to free speech. But, as with lakshman, I only decided to comment here because senthil’s Telangana article appeared on vijayvaani, and despite the fact that he’s been repeatedly debunked, he still uses kcr “exploitation” talking points to slander seemandhra people even there. If this is part of your “long view of history”–then maybe you need to read up.

        “We all make mistakes.”

        Then have the integrity to admit them. I will gladly depart from this fiber-optic intellectual cul de sac if the error about telangana and his so-called wikipedia proofs are acknowledged and more importantly retired. It’s one thing to advocate for telangana or even “traditional desams”/cultural regions, quite another to use unrepentant sophistry and amateurish maps/original research.

        But if integrity and honest debate don’t matter to you, then maybe don’t play public editor next time.

        “That argument is very immature and holds no water.”

        When we both agree on the obvious, isn’t the correct approach to focus your attention on the source, rather than the response? I have no problem with polite interceding to promote civil/productive dialogue. I even agreed with your other points. The issue I have is that illogical Telangana theories being formed here are now being channeled to respectable places.

        There is enough propaganda being produced by the kcrs and owaisis of the world–we don’t need self-goals by purportedly patriotic hindus. The BJP also supports telangana, but they didn’t pervert history to justify it. Whether it’s with Telangana or the pie in the sky 56 desams–sound history and genuine scholarship has to be the basis, not imagination or “dominant jati” dreams.

        I previously pointed out that there are people who actually agree with senthil on agriculture. But if he doesn’t admit obvious error here–it only discredits his position elsewhere (notably on the farming matter).

        So wouldn’t it better serve everyone if you gently coaxed senthil into doing the right thing rather than focusing your fire on me? Exchanges don’t have to be acrimonious if people converse in good faith and ask before assuming.

        Anyhow, that was food for thought in case this sub-thread continues. As I said above, if the “dharma perversion” remark wasn’t directed at me, please ignore the snark. If it was, however, then I stand by it.

        • Zed says:

          My note was pretty clear as to who it was addressed to in the appropriate place.
          If you think Senthil is not honest, then call him a liar, show him up for a liar and go about your way. What are you looking for here? An apology?
          You are not his brother in law are you?

          I am claiming Senthil’s theory is not valid to Andhra. I gave reasons why, it is up to him to modify his theory accordingly. I get neither credit nor fame if he does that or not.

          I asked you to calm down a little and not be so petulant. You seem to have a wrong idea about what a “debate” or a “public discourse” is.
          Senthil’s theory has absolutely no bearing on if/what division of Andhra happens and any fallout that is going to happen later. All I am contesting is if it can be applied to Andhra in this case and how perverted his Dharma is going to look once the inevitable fallout occurs..

          So once again, calm down. Don’t hurt yourself.

          • vyas says:

            I just don’t understand why you are so agonized. I never asked for any apology from anybody. It is you people who are deviating from the crux of the debate and keep pointing to the inaccuracy of the map. Me and Senthil are of the same opinion in this matter which is why I’m providing my comments. I’m neither vouching for Senthil nor against you. BTW I defer with Senthil on a lot of other issues. Looks like you people are obsessed with the 56 desams that Senthil mentioned. I already mentioned that it should only be used as a reference. The split of Telengana is entirely at fault with united AP. Such a fate is waiting for other states as well and Telengana will be a stepping stone for it.

          • nyaya says:

            “My note was pretty clear as to who it was addressed to in the appropriate place.”

            Uh, I wouldn’t be so sure about that, slick, judging by the additional responses you are getting…

            “If you think Senthil is not honest, then call him a liar, show him up for a liar and go about your way.”

            I’ve done what I needed to do to persist with getting corrections. How does this concern you now? I’m more than happy to drop references to you in the future–so I wouldn’t worry about that.

            “What are you looking for here? An apology?”

            No, a retraction–a correction. Not sure if you’re familiar with the well-known concept, but it’s commonly done in journalism Mistakes happen, but intellectuals/journalists/bloggers have a duty to correct them and issue retraction statements–particularly when they’ve become blatantly obvious.

            Doubling down or hiring opposing counsel to play defense is not the way to go about it. Knowingly misinforming readers with discredited “evidence” is not the correct approach.

            “I am claiming Senthil’s theory is not valid to Andhra. ”

            Yeah, I don’t care about that, champ. I care about the fact that he is proffering invalid and discredited “proofs” for his telangana desam theory. He’s entitled to his own opinions, not his own facts. If he retracts those errors, then I leave you fellows to your own devices.

            “You are not his brother in law are you?”

            It’s increasingly sounding like you might be…

            “I asked you to calm down a little and not be so petulant.”

            Yeah, and I don’t need John-come (again)-lately’s to give me lectures after I’ve persisted with an issue they neglected a while back. I’ve seen your other comments, so spare me the hamfisted pretense.

            Funny how you have no problem focusing your ire on someone asking for corrections rather than the blogger who’s blatantly dissembled about the veracity of his so-called “proofs”.

            If you have a problem with the pitch of the discourse here, lay the responsibility where it lies–the management, which has been ill-treating and casting aspersions on previously civil and good faith commenters (completely unrelated to me or this issue). Targeting me for tenor doesn’t exactly make you a profile in courage–so might want to chill a bit there, cowboy.

            “Don’t hurt yourself.”

            Seems like you’ve managed to do that to yourself already.

            I was nice enough to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it seems like you’d rather engage in ill-advised public service announcements than calmly and sincerely request what is required–a retraction. If you can’t do that, then you’d be better advised to mind your own business.

            A simple retraction addressed to the readership (or whomever he pleases), and I will happily part company from this benighted blog, and leave you lot as you were, free to navel-gaze on mutant versions of dharma whilst reveling in copious malaprops.

      • vyas says:

        Zed – I don’t know if you ever had a chance to read my last response to you. You seem to have conveniently ignored the same.

        Let me give my comments again.

        //The fact that Senthil has gotten his geography, his culture and his events wrong is obvious and you don’t have to keep beating your head upon it//

        I’m not going to go argue on who is right on this topic, but I strongly believe that Senthil is pontificating about the 56 desams that’s mentioned in this book புராதன இந்தியா என்னும் பழைய 56 தேசங்கள் (Ancient India aka 56 Desams). The details of those desams can also be found in the below link. It’s in Tamil so not sure if you can read it. You may probably try google translate.

        http://kaialavuman.blogspot.in/2011/12/56.html

        //I have absolutely no issue with the fact that there could have been multiple desams, but why Andhra and why now?//

        Is telangana a recent issue? In my opinion it has been going on for decades. Also it is only Senthil who is projecting the bifurcation from the point of view of ancient desams. I don’t think KCR protested for Telangana with the old desams in mind. For them it’s a cultural and administrative issue and adding fuel to fire united AP pretty much ignored Telangana people and totally deprived them of it’s developments. So, pls don’t overdose yourself with the 56 desams. It’s supposed to be used only as a reference. Nobody is asking anyone to create a replica of those 56 desams right now. In any case who is going to bother dividing the states if people are not willing to do so? This whole discussion about bifurcation would not have come up had the Telangana people not protested.In addition to this the whole bifurcation of the nation based on language has simply ruined the nation. It focuses on saving the language but has let people completely down. But in the end did it at least save the language? No, even there it lost itself to English.

        //It is very inhuman to encourage the disaster that is going to happen and justify it on basis of jati , desam concept which in reality is not even a valid example here.//

        Strange. You are talking as if KCR bifurcated AP focusing on jaathi and desam. You keep forgetting that it is Senthil who is proposing this solution based on culture and I’m supporting it. The problem with us is since we over emphasized language, we completely trivialized the cultural aspects of the society. Here is where jaathi stands out. It’s a placeholder for self sustained administration based on paramparya. But in the name of linguistic unity we are slowly but steadily destroying it. Again pls understand that nobody is asking anyone to create a separate desam for each jaathi. Had the existing states of this country embraced Jaathi, we’d have had no complaints. But the existing geography has completely buried jaathi in the name of linguistic bifurcation. The ultimate aim is to create as many states as possible so that the individual jaathi rights are protected and people are tuned to manage themselves with least help from the govt. The whole agenda is to decentralize as much as possible.

        //As an example, when the partition was about to happen, all the congress leaders assured hindus in what is now west pakistan that their lives and properties would be safe//

        I don’t understand why you people are equating this issue to that of India-Pakistan, which is entirely a different one. That bifurcation happened based on religion, plus that one was bifurcating the nation as such. This one is just bifurcating a state. You simple can’t compare the two.

        //What good is a desam when you cannot guarantee safety of people who conduct business & commerce?//

        You are seeing this issue from totally an economic perspective. You must show some sympathy for the people of Telangana too? Didn’t they suffer all these days when your politicians looted all their wealth? Again I’m not saying it’s a tit for tat. The economic investments needs to be protected and safety needs to be assured. This is the job of the center. As usual they are showing their irresponsibility in this issue too. Hopefully the next govt should take care of this for you.

        //If Senthil’s position is that Andhra people should leave Hyderabad and go back to their original districts, then obviously there can be no agreement with him on any count. Because, the same argument can be held against Chennai, Mumbai and Delhi. That argument is very immature and holds no water.//

        Nobody is asking anyone to move out. Moves will automatically happen. When linguistic bifurcation happened, a lot of Telugu businessmen shifted their base from TN to AP. Even the entire film industry shifted too. This is quiet natural. Such issues will heal itself off over a period of time.

        //If Senthil’s position is that smaller states make better administrative units and are more suited to the Jatis, fair enough; let the separation happen, but let it happen amicably//

        That’s the point. We never deviated from that.

        //Let it happen in a way where nobody’s home has to be looted in Hyderabad//

        This is impossible. Any re-org will always leave it’s bad traces. You simply cannot satisfy everyone. The bifurcation happened to protect larger interests and some minorities will be affected as a result which cannot be avoided. Reservation system significantly affected and still affecting the forward castes, did we ever stop it quoting the same?

        //Unfortunately, given the utterances of the politicians from Telangana, it does not seem to be the case. As a first step for division, Telangana is obligated to pay for the new capital of Andhra. How can they pay if they are so poor? And if they are not poor and doing well, why complain about discrimination?//

        You are relying too much on politicians. They are known for their tongue twisting. Also pls bear in mind that Telangana is not formed in a desert. It’s just your neighboring state at it’s infancy. It will badly need Seemandhara’s support for running it’s show. It simply cannot function with the funds from the central govt alone.

        //If your dharma means i lose my property, my prosperity that was hard earned, then I say that your dharma better get prepared for no man at no time will give up his hard earned wealth. //

        You must also look into how all this wealth was acquired. As I mentioned earlier, protection of larger interests is the key.

        • Zed says:

          Senthil got his facts wrong in geographic places within Andhra, he obviously does not understand Telugu and he is seriously handicapped with references to culture. It has nothing to do with desams, it has to do with simple facts. They have already been pointed out.

          I understand your position about Jati & desam, have no big objection to that. The only question once again is why use a very emotive wedge issue of Andhra now to talk about the ancient desams when factually it is not even applicable here? If you want to prove your point about Jati contiguity, you have excellent examples in Uttarkhand, haryana and chattisgarh. Why would someone who is “really” interested in jati/desam not pick such easy examples but instead wade into a very complex & irrelavant issue like Andhra from this perspective?

          By not getting the analogy of partition and the coming destruction of hyderabad, you are totally missing the point. Think once again about that analogy. It is not about state/religion, it is about a set of politicians giving out assurances and bailing out in the last moment. Think a little harder, you will get it.

          Nobody looted anything from telangana after the last nizam was overthrown. If you state that as a fact, it is incumbent upon you to show some evidence. Per the last estimate, Telangana area is actually richer than Rayalaseema. Next time bring facts.
          If Telangana area is poorer, then why are people moving to Hyderabad? And if Hyderabad is not made part of Telangana, then where is the issue about bifurcation?

          I chose not to respond to you earlier since your facts are wrong, your sentences are illogical and you have a very perverted interpretation of jati dharma.

          Remember: If wealth cannot be generated, dharma cannot be sustained. Commerce is required for wealth. if commerce cannot be protected by force, there is no need for law and order. If there is no law and order, there is no need for organized family/society and if there is no need for an organized society, we might as well do an individual-state relationship destroying family/jati/society in between and hand over the law/order to state.
          See how in this case you guys end up making the argument for destruction of Jati?
          That’s why I warned against mixing up with the Andhra issue. It is not about a simple bifurcation. That is just a media story for fellows like you.
          The actual story is about destruction of wealth.

          • nyaya says:

            Look man, I agree with what you’re saying, especially with this last comment which cleared up some of the misunderstanding.

            I get that you want to a certain level of decorum in public discourse. I would happily oblige–only you’ve seen what commenters aside from me have had to put up with here (kumar, surya ramachandran, etc). IIlogical sentences and recalcitrant denial about wrong facts lead to acrimony–see the subramanian swamy page for more examples.

            I don’t mind you asking me to tone it down–so long as you get others to do the same–particularly a certain commneter who shall not be namedMost importantly, it would lend credence to your effort if you also suggested that the blogger issue a retraction (not on opinion or topic–but on disproven facts like the wiki map). That would make your intervention here even-handed. If you don’t want to do that, fine, but then it wouldn’t make sense for me to take your advice (however well-intentioned) now, does it?

            Ultimately, I would prefer to avoid continuing this rough edged repartee with you (especially since we agree on substance)–all I’m saying is address the foibles of all parties. That will allow senthil to blog free of my presence and good faith commenters a space free of theatrics made necessary by the provocative behavior and pigheadedness of others. So if you don’t want me keep commenting–fine. Simply ask senthil to issue a fact retraction and I will happily leave when it’s issued.

  20. ASHISH RAJE says:

    This was a tweet by @x123_ who has quit tweeting “Our Gunas and Karma determine our ‘caste’! Caste is not dependent on Birth but Ethnicity is! likewise, words criminal, corrupt, selfish, thief are also wrong and shud not b used?.” Could you please explain the meaning as I am unable to comprehend the same fully. Would appreciate your feedback. Regards

    • senthil says:

      He is living in his own world.. kula / gothra and varna are all birth based.. our entire civilization is communal which is birth based.. these persons are warped in colonial propoganda of universal equality, and could not see our history as it is..

      • ASHISH RAJE says:

        Thnks for your reply. However, the following comment by x123_ “criminal, corrupt, selfish, thief are also wrong and shud not b used?” does it have any rational.

  21. senthil says:

    @zed,

    /** Senthil got his facts wrong in geographic places within Andhra, he obviously does not understand Telugu and he is seriously handicapped with references to culture. It has nothing to do with desams, it has to do with simple facts.
    **/

    When you say i am wrong you have substantiate with facts or proofs.. Just by pouring in your personal opinion is NOT a right way to negate my points.. I have clearly given references to andhra, kalinga, odra, dravida dhesas.. if you believe current United AP is a single dhesam from ancient days, pls provide relevant proofs from our literature.. So far no one had given any such proofs.. The kakatiyas and other rulers ruling over vast areas is NOT a valid argument.. i had clarified earlier that a dhesam is identified based on geography & riverine and the people who first settles in it.. NOT based on who conquers it.. the cholas once rules up to kalinga and odra dhesa.. that doesnt mean all dhesas he conquered is chola dhesam..

    /** My criticism is limited to the fact that he is juxtaposing the desha concept on the worst possible example he could find. **/

    I had studied about this dhesa concept for past three years from first hand experience.. the society that was first built in each geographical dhesam is still existing in the same place, with more or less same culture and traditions.. this can be understood from studying the sociology of the region.. did you conduct any such study? Without such sociological analysis, how can you comment my argument as worst possible example..

    Did i support KCR blindly? While he was demanding bifurcation, which is based on recent politics, i am basing my argument on our original civilizational design, and hence demand division of andhra in to four regions..

    /** If Senthil’s position is that Andhra people should leave Hyderabad and go back to their original districts, then obviously there can be no agreement with him on any count. Because, the same argument can be held against Chennai, Mumbai and Delhi. That argument is very immature and holds no water.
    **/

    WHy?? every region has their own native society.. the current seemandhra people are NOT native to telengana, but control every resources there, right from beurocracy to economy to polity.. why should they come far away from their native place to hyderabad? Did the native people of telengana invite them? NO.. these people displaced locals and built an economic system on other’s land and region..

    Suppose if i come to your land and build a house or factory, will you accept my argument that i had developed your land.. you will simply say “WHo asked to occupy my land”.. that’s is what i am asking seemandhra people..

    My argument holds good for chennai, mumbai and delhi too.. these metros were built by destroying native civilization of that region.. and you want to legitimise this RAPE by invoking Pan-Indian Nationalism.. it will be extremely beneficial and comfortable for you if all the pre-colonial historic memories were erased for ever so that you could continue to live in these metros..

    None of you have ever addressed these facts so far.. what legitimacy does the people of Metros have to claim their land? If they had built the metros from forest, they would have legitimacy.. but the truth is that they have built it by destroying already existing civilization..

    • Zed says:

      If your fight is against urban india, then why not start with your chennai and then delhi? why come piss in our issue with hyderabad?

      Your idea of rural/urban is very similar to that of the original gandhi and it will not work for the simple reason that times have changed and the old model will not work without some adaptation. However you refuse to adapt and insist on making the very mistakes that led to our ruin first thru islamic invasions and then the english.

      Our old way did the opposite of what you propose. Skilled folks were encouraged and actually welcomed by the rajan to come settle in his domain. What you are proposing is the opposite: folks should never leave their native place. This is a very immature proposition and has no basis in either common sense or dharma.

      If your contention is that all metro people are adharmic just by their existence in the metros, then there is nothing to argue with you here.

      • senthil says:

        @zed,

        /** If your fight is against urban india, then why not start with your chennai and then delhi? why come piss in our issue with hyderabad?
        **/

        I am pointing you that you do not have any legitimacy over hyderabad.. on what basis can you claim it to be “yours”?? the telengana people are the native people, and they had already shown you the doors to vacate..

        Regarding urban india, its a debate on systems and NOT cities.. my accusation is that you urban indians had become capitalistic stooges and had built your metros by destroying already existing gramas.. you need to first answer this issue..

        /** Your idea of rural/urban is very similar to that of the original gandhi **/

        I reject this very concept of rural/urban.. my point is that traditional bharath is made up of well designed gramas and Nagaras which is NOT the same as Cities & villages..

        /** Our old way did the opposite of what you propose. Skilled folks were encouraged and actually welcomed by the rajan to come settle in his domain. What you are proposing is the opposite: folks should never leave their native place. This is a very immature proposition and has no basis in either common sense or dharma.
        **/

        The raja did not destroy any already existing gramas to settle new peopl.. and the raja did not say “any one can settle any where in his rajyam”.. and he did not say “any one can suck up any resources in his rajyam”.. the raja did not drive away any people group already invited and settled by him..

        the nativity comes ONLY by the legitimacy given by the raja, who is the original kartha of the land.. NOT by forceful occupation of land as the seemandhra people had done in hyderabad..

        what your urban india did? it first dislodged the rajas.. then destroyed the native administrative system, and enslaved all people.. then it destroyed the gramas and nagaras built by the rajas..

        Is it what the “CHange” that you want me to adapt and accept??

        /** If your contention is that all metro people are adharmic just by their existence in the metros, then there is nothing to argue with you here.
        **/

        Exactly.. the very metro system itself is totally adharmic by its existence.. if you dont agree, then please explain, in what way are these urban systems “DHarmic”??

      • senthil says:

        Still you have not answered, what legitimacy does the urban india have on this land?

        For eg, i am native to my village because of inheritance.. my forefathers had built this village from forest land, and created a sustainable living environment.. they did this by doing appropriate poojas to the vanadevata (kali devi) and seeking her approval.. they built a temple for this devata which we are still now worshipping..
        my legitimacy is dharmic and unquestionable…

        Please tell me in what way can you claim legitimacy over hyderabad (or any other metros).. who built it and how? your urban india derives its power and legitimacy from the Totalatarian power handed over by Britishers.. right? and it is by using this power, you had imposed an alien capitalistic economic and administrative system.. and after making all the destruction, now you ask me to adapt to the changes and times.. is it dharmic?? is it just??

        so far, all the intellectual discourse has been carried over by communists, missionaries and liberals.. for the first time, i have been asking questions based on our native systems.. it may be new to urban indians.. that should not stop us from discussing this issue..

        PS: this is NOT a personal debate.. when i mention the term “YOU”, pls dont take it personally.. i am questioningasking urban indians..

        • vyas says:

          //they did this by doing appropriate poojas to the vanadevata (kali devi) and seeking her approval//

          Senthil – pls come up with some detailed article on topics like this when you find time or atleast point to some references regarding the same. I find it really hard to convince the younger generation on subjects like this. For eg., they are not immediately ready to believe things like what you mentioned – asking permission from vanadevatha. They want an intellectual answer for such things like, worship, poojas, vanadevatha, kula devatha etc. I find that they get confused with such practices and start comparing/contrasting it with Christian/Muslim prayers. Let me put this question straight to you…Did your ancestors teach you such things just by blind belief or did they give you intellectual answers for the same?

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            the vanadevata, asking oracles from gods etc are common things in my area and among my people.. if the urban youths do not accept these things, they can better ignore it and look after their own business.. why should they interfere in the practices of those who believe and follow it? Is there any necessity on my part to justify or intellectually explain what is followed by my ancestors for thousands of years..

            Why is the urban india dictating universal morality, and enacts laws that doesnt conform to their universal standards? this is another form of abrahamic intolerance, displayed by urban india.. for me, this urban indian assault is more dangerous than the christian assault on my tradition and culture.. what do you think about this?

            Its my strong view that we should STOP subjecting ourselves to answer for idiotic allegation from missionaries or liberals or from any other persons who make wild accusations.. there is no need for us to JUSTIFY our tradition to any one.. if any atheistic morons accuses our tradition, we should just say “Mind your business”.. Hope, you would agree with me..

            While i had studied these traditional customs & rituals and have developed some kind of understanding, i can explain ONLY to those who are open minded and really interested to hear.. and more over, one can understand these things, ONLY when they have real life experiences of it.. without that, they will not be able to even imagine it..

          • vyas says:

            //if the urban youths do not accept these things, they can better ignore it and look after their own business.. why should they interfere in the practices of those who believe and follow it? Is there any necessity on my part to justify or intellectually explain what is followed by my ancestors for thousands of years..//

            Senthil – Who interfered? Did someone physically stop you from practicing your rituals? This is a ridiculous argument. Having written so many articles and engaged in so many intellectual discussions for years together, I did not expect such a response from you. If you don’t want to respond to urban morons, why do you take so much pains to explain your stand to people in this forum? When people in the forum are pointing out something which is contradicting your statements, are you not indulging in intellectual debates and asking them to provide appropriate sources to substantiate their claims? Why are you not doing that now when it comes to vanadevatha and other rituals followed by your own jaathi? I have absolutely no issues if you want to follow your rituals blindly without asking a single question. It’s totally up to you. You and me can do it but we can’t expect the same behavior from everyone. In addition to this our forefathers were not stupids to blindly advocate worship of some imaginary non-existent vanadevathas. Those Gods are very much real but I just don’t know what process they used to invoke them. This is why I requested you to throw some light on the same. If you don’t know or don’t want to reveal how they did it, it’s absolutely fine but I strongly believe that these practices are not just blind beliefs.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            /** Senthil – Who interfered? Did someone physically stop you from practicing your rituals? This is a ridiculous argument
            **/

            Yes.. the government physically stopped these rituals by criminalising it.. the JJ govt had enacted law banning animal sacrifice in temples..

            The devadasi tradition was banned by law by the urban indians.. the devadasis were persecuted, arrested and deprived of their livelihood.. for eg, devadasis used to dance in marriage functions, and it was considered auspicious.. the devadasi abolition act, criminalised any devadasi who dance in temples and also forced other people NOT to invite the devadasis..

            pls look at the “anti-Superstition” bill currently enacted in Maharashtra..

            In the past, people who followed tantric rituals were pesecuted ruthlessly.. the urban indians who control cine industry had depicted the samiyars as sexual exploiters..

            Even today, the media of urban india conduct many Thriller programs (eg: nadanthathu enna program in vijay tv) intruding in to private lives of villages, and show them in poor light..

            I can list out many more facts like this…

            You should understand the forces that are in power and the systems that is in place today.. you and Zed are under impression that villagers are living in absolute freedom without any interference from any one else.. pls come out of such false impressions, and understand the real power structure.. Just take a statistics on how many police shootings that have taken place in past 50 years, and how many villagers have been killed.. When SEZ was forcefully implemented, the villagers opposed it.. why you people dont see this?

            Even today, the temple pond in our village is polluted by nearby town.. Please tell me what can the villagers do? by polluting village water source, by allowing Big industries unrestricted which sucks up water and other resources, by allowing encroachment of irrigation channels, how can you expect village to live peacefully?

          • vyas says:

            //pls look at the “anti-Superstition” bill currently enacted in Maharashtra..//

            Yes, I did read it. People should challenge this bill with the SC. If we allow such things to happen, tomorrow they may brand everything that we do as superstition and stop us from doing it.

            //Yes.. the government physically stopped these rituals by criminalising it.. the JJ govt had enacted law banning animal sacrifice in temples.. //

            Such things have to be challenged with the SC which is the only way out for now. I remember the RSS too condemned JJ for this. Also it must be noted that it was the same JJ govt that passed the anti-conversion bill but she was forced to withdraw it in just a few days, out of vatican pressure.

            //In the past, people who followed tantric rituals were pesecuted ruthlessly.. the urban indians who control cine industry had depicted the samiyars as sexual exploiters..//

            This is nothing new. The same thing happened in Europe a while ago. The Oracles were branded as witches and mercilessly persecuted. The same pattern is being followed now in India too.

            I do understand all your concerns, but just don’t have a ready made solution. I don’t think anybody has it either. Sometimes I console myself by acknowledging that such things are known to happen in kali yuga. The rural India is becoming weaker and weaker day by day. We are currently in a situation exactly similar to that of Europe and America about 300 years ago. While they finished their locals through brutal attacks, the urbans here are taking a different approach not involving physical attacks. The only difference is that the effect will be somewhat slower in India compared to those other regions. As you rightly said, the so called modern science is probably the biggest culprits of our times. It looks like we may even win over problems created by Abrahamic religions but I’m afraid we are going to lose against the religion called Science. As a result we are in a pathetic situation right now that we are forced to explain our very own traditional sampradhayas through modern science. I very well understand that the only way out to continue this tradition is to follow these sampradhayas blindly in order to fight against powerful alien forces, but just don’t know how to convince the younger generation.

        • nyaya says:

          It is not clear whether you are addressing zed or urban indians in general, so I will answer

          “my legitimacy is dharmic and unquestionable…”

          No–you have not proven on any basis that your or your telangana articles are dharmic–and stating your legitimacy is “unquestionable” is (your words) “moral arrogance” in the supreme.

          You undercut yourself by pushing for traditional jati system, but you yourself are non-brahmana. By your own logic, this disqualifies you from interpreting texts. I am not the one obsessed with jati, but this is your logic, disqualifying you and questioning your legitimacy. Merely calling yourself dharmic, doesn’t make it so.

          Second, you keep talking about telangana people as if they are different from andhra people. The difference is they suffered under colonial turk yoke instead of direct british yoke and have more muslim/urdu influence. That is the basis of difference they are arguing–which only helps hyderabadi muslims trying to recreate nizam state with urdu as first language.

          Your own source disproves your talavahanas were telingas in telangana theory (i gave second map showing talavahanas/telingas in coastal andhra), but you tried to escape from debate because I showed readers Rajiv Malhotra’s criticism of you. What’s more, old hyderabad was founded by golconda sultans for nawabs–telangana hindus treated like slaves in Nizam hyderabad–no safety for womenfolk. Modern hyderabad is the result of Andhra investment. Naidu put modern hyderabad on the map. Before TDP and NTR, hyderabadi muslims would even attack hindus putting up telugu signboards. TDP changed that and restored hindu self respect in the city–that is the legitimacy.

          Third, you are recreating the turk colonial system of hyderabad state despite your claims of “dharmic”. Telangana is itself the turk/persian word for ALL telugu land. I have given you multiple sources that have unquestionably disprove you and your theories of telangana comes from trilinga (I showed it was telugu that came from trilinga, disproving you). I even gave you multiple sources, but still deafening silence.

          Fourth, you had the audacity to call andhras exploiters of telangana. What does that make your vellalar caste? Exploiters of dalits? It seems like jati only interests you so you can be a “dominant” caste.

          In sum, all we have seen is bravado and denial from you senthil. You have not done a modicum of intellectual work to prove your case for telangana let alone disprove my rebuttal. It is for this reason, many many people including Malhotra have criticized you for your “opinion” only approach to “debate”. It is why lakshman left your blog in frustration and why even zed said there may not be a point in debating with you.

          You can try to distract and escape by even calling this “personal attack”–but readers can plainly see you are not interested in the truth–only your opinion–which has routinely and unquestionably been proven wrong on facts not “blunt denial” as you do.

          • senthil says:

            You are repeating the same unsubstantiated statements again and again and dragging irrelevant points to attack me..

            Your own source itself has explained that the term came from the word “Trilinga”, which is the area b/w mountains of three lingas.. this area is nothing but present day telinga region.. which means, your andhra is NOT part of original telugu area.. pls answer this point alone (without any personal attack)..

            /** Fourth, you had the audacity to call andhras exploiters of telangana. What does that make your vellalar caste? Exploiters of dalits? It seems like jati only interests you so you can be a “dominant” caste.
            **/
            Its the telangana people who say that seemandhra people had exploited them.. NOT me.. i am merely supporting their cause..

            telangana is NOT the native for all those seemandhra people who has business stake in hyderabad.. their native is in andhra & seema region.. this itself explains everything.. Even within andhra region, one villager cannot indiscrimnately occupy another village, like the seemandhra people did with hyderbad.. the rights and ownership are clearly defined..

            and you do not know the relation b/w vellala caste and dalit caste, as evident from your own statement.. i have detailed analysis of this dalit-upper caste relations, across dhesams.. discussing this will deviate the main topic.. so lets leave this..

            NOTE: Focus ONLY on the subject alone without personal attacks like “You are liar, etc”..

          • nyaya says:

            @ Senthil,

            It is quite obvious to readers that this entire “personal attacks” excuse is just a natak for you to distract from the fact that your own sources have undercut your argument for a traditional telangana desam—because none existed.

            You are merely repeating your own opinion–no sources provided. Calling my statements unsubstantiated is again untruth–I have provided supporting sources throughout comments (esp very first comment on article)–you have only provided your opinion and a wikipedia map that contradicted you with second version showing “speculative” telinga-talavahanas in coastal andhra.

            If you stop pretending sources are saying something else and you weren’t disproven, I will stop repeating statements. Easy formula. Choice is yours.

            “Your own source itself has explained that the term came from the word “Trilinga”, which is the area b/w mountains of three lingas.. this area is nothing but present day telinga region.. which means, your andhra is NOT part of original telugu area..”

            False. You are speaking untruth.

            Draksharama was mentioned by my source–and is NOT in present day Telangana (you were already told this,,,don’t pretend). Only Andhra desam existed and my sources clearly showed it was called Telinga in prakrit based on Sanskrit name of trilinga (which included coastal andhra’s draksharamam–nowhere near telangana–you’re wrong) which ultimately became Telugu. You wrongly said telangana came from trilinga–and were disproven here also when I showed Telugu came from trilinga (obvious difference).

            “Its the telangana people who say that seemandhra people had exploited them.. NOT me..”

            It is Dalit people who are saying Vellalar exploiting them…NOT me…

            “telangana is NOT the native for all those seemandhra people who has business stake in hyderabad.. their native is in andhra & seema region.. this itself explains everything..”

            No it doesn’t–telangana people themselves fled to andhra because of nizam’s atrocities. Migration happens, just like telugu migration to Vijayanagara and later tamil nadu as Nayaks. Looks like you support nizam’s atrocities against hindus–no wonder you argue against hindu label. You want to support hyderabadis…

            “and you do not know the relation b/w vellala caste and dalit caste, as evident from your own statement..”

            And you do not know the relation b/w seemandhra and telangana people, as evident from your own statement..

            “NOTE: Focus ONLY on the subject alone without personal attacks like “You are liar, etc”..”

            You yourself have been attacking people saying “idiotic”. So it’s hypocrisy for you to whine about “personal attacks”. If you don’t want people to call you a liar–don’t speak untruth. You have made many false statements (i.e.kalinga is “unambiguously” uttarandhra). Saying you are speaking untruth is not an attack–it is statement of fact.

            You need to correct your behavior if you want honest debate.

        • Zed says:

          Fair enough. You claim your forefathers built the village by clearing the forest.
          Are you still there? I bet not. You are in some shit hole in chennai most probably.

          why don’t you practice what you preach and go back to your grama? And while there, did the local cell phone company or broadband company take the permission of the vanadevata? if not, you are adharmic if you use those resources to connect to internet.
          You are using an evil capitalistic wordpress site to post your views. This is obviously adharmic by your own standards. Did wordpress take permission from internet/whatever devata ? No. they most probably started with resources that were stolen from your grandfather!
          Note, I am not asking you to stop doing this…nor does it matter to me if you do.
          However, if you could prove to me that you are not practicing the above 3, I’ll give your position a very sympathetic consideration. If not, you are just another rambler that want others to suffer some ideas while you enjoy the good life.

          Once again, ask your tamil people or your Jati people or your village people to go back first. Don’t bother preaching to the distant Telugu people. They might sometimes preach back at you.
          Or worse, they might put your theories to action…starting with tamil people in hyderabad.

          Start with yourself and then go tell your friends at Vijayavani and then the fellows at Kanchipuram to go back. We all know where they came from.

          And after that, tell me that I am this ugly urban guy abusing poor villagers in hyderabad and I might then listen to you.
          If not, your points are as worthless as the objects you rail against.

          • senthil says:

            @zed,

            i cannot answer for vithandavatham.. the main issue here is the legitimacy and ownership of the region.. your urban india had destroyed villages and your urban indian government had destroyed native administrative system.. you now saying that i should accept these destructions, as times have changed.. what logic is it ? instead of answering this, you are dragging unnecessary things..

            /** why don’t you practice what you preach and go back to your grama? **/

            After destroying everything that my traditional bharath had, is there any meaning in your words to ask me to return to my grama..

            First answer for the question.. is your urban india dharmic? if not, first accept that honestly..

  22. senthil says:

    /** If Senthil’s position is that smaller states make better administrative units and are more suited to the Jatis, fair enough; let the separation happen, but let it happen amicably. Let it happen in a way where nobody’s home has to be looted in Hyderabad. Unfortunately, given the utterances of the politicians from Telangana, it does not seem to be the case. As a first step for division, Telangana is obligated to pay for the new capital of Andhra. How can they pay if they are so poor? And if they are not poor and doing well, why complain about discrimination?
    **/

    i am repeating the two important points here..

    1. Hyderabad is NOT the native place of seemandhra people, and they had built their business empires in hyderabad against opposition of telengana people..

    2. The hyderabad as a Metro was developed by destroying and looting lands of so many villages.. (same for chennai and mumbai).. you should first answer for this ..

    The urban india has been displaying this utter selfishness and colonial attitude in number of scenarios..

    For eg, the traditional occupation of all jathis were collapsing under onslaught of corporate companies, for past 100 years.. Narendra Modi is a best example.. The traditional Oil Extracting occupation of his teli caste was destroyed by Commercial Oil Companies, and as a result he was selling tea in railway station.. if his community was propserous he would have been also propserous and wealthy..

    yet no morons from urban india ever cared for these traditional occupation.. however, when these people were affected by Italian Maino’s loot, they are shouting like hell now and wants everyone to fight against this alien forces.. all that the urban india wants is the comfort from looting of traditional bharath..

    I challenge any one to counter my accusation, without resorting to blatant denial..

    • Zed says:

      Senthil,
      You are also accusing yourself aren’t’ you? Don’t tell me you never lived in urban india or not living there right now.
      Nobody is stopping you from performing your traditional Jati occupation, unless it is you who has been looting resources from poor people to live where you live. You should at least start with the sentence “I am ashamed of myself for who I am”.

      By the way, your claim of clearing forests to build Nagaras is not accurate. Villages were emptied to build cities before, it was done in a way that did not cause much discomfort to the villagers, but it was done. You want an example? Hyderabad/Golconda.
      Many villages were destroyed even before the first Andhra “oppressor” ever set his foot there. Just look at a map to get what I am talking about.

      • senthil says:

        /** Nobody is stopping you from performing your traditional Jati occupation, unless it is you who has been looting resources from poor people to live where you live
        **/

        It has been a fact that your urban indian government destroyed numerous villages to expand the metro centers.. and you are still making this statement that no body stopped you from performing my traditional jathi occupation..

        Every policies enacted by your indian government are aimed at destroying the agriculture.. your own finance minister and the recent RBI governor had publicly stated that the government wants to move people out of agriculture.. your own government policies clearly states that people should be moved from villages to urban centers .. can you deny this??

  23. senthil says:

    /** If your dharma means i lose my property, my prosperity that was hard earned, then I say that your dharma better get prepared for no man at no time will give up his hard earned wealth.
    **/

    I want to remind you that the property you claim is built itself is adharmic.. you dont have any legitimacy to claim over it.. the people of seemandhra have built their assets in hyderabad, against wishes of the native people and NOT by co-operation.. so you dont have any legitimacy to speak about dharma here.. you dont have any dharmic basis.. (Same for all those metro people)

  24. senthil says:

    Finally i rest my case with the following questions..

    On what basis do we consider ourselves as a Nation?
    Is it based on Colonial Narration of history, Colonial Political and administrative structure?
    Or
    Is it based on our ancient civilizational history?

    I am considering myself as a nation because i have inherited 5000 year old history through my jathi.. the urban india should explain on what basis do they consider themselves as nation?

    • nyaya says:

      @ Senthil has completely failed to prove traditional telangana desam. He didn’t even give me point-for-point answer, he followed pure turuska tactics rather than pure vedic and only partially answered one falsely. He is now openly embracing asatya in a vain attempt to keep his pride. Ahankar is exceedingly dangerous–especially for a brahmana. Senthil made the following mistakes (which can by seen above in very first comment):

      1. Senthil said Uttarandhra was kalinga–he was completely proven wrong here. I gave proof in my very first comment–he never responded.

      2. Senthil using speculative wikipedia map to say talavahanas were telingas. Even his own source said this was “speculation”. Different version of same map shows so-called “telingas” on andhra coast itself, not even modern telangana.

      3.Senthil proven completely wrong on kulachar-culture. Multiple people have confirmed samskruthi is culture. Even Senthil’s own wiki source shows that culture comes from latin word meaning “cultivated”, i.e. “refined”.

      4. Senthil is advocating Andhra split which will create Old hyderabad state out of Telangana (KCR is already pushing for 12% reservations for muslims). Looks like Senthil is in favor of reservations too.

      5.Senthil has never been able to show non-urdu/muslim cultural difference between seemandhra people and telangana people. This is because these divisions themselves are COLONIAL.

      6.Senthil completely wrong on how no region had been able to dominate in united AP–because this is central Telangana claim–that seemandhra peopel dominate and “exploit”. Senthil himself has begun using the words “exploit”. Looks like senthil doesn’t mind if dravidians say the same thing about brahmanas.

      7. Senthil failed to properly answer how he would counter caste politics which would happen even in separate Telangana.

      8. Senthil said this:”@nyaya is saying christians will get more powerful if we divide large state in to smaller ones. But in reality, it is in the United Andhra pradesh, the christian conversion was at highest. He doesnt answer this point, which was raised by @vyasa too.”

      I did answer it– this is a blatant lie. Both he and vyas completely failed to answer it (see links above): I said, United Andhra conversion was highest because YSR was christian evangelist–he worked with sonia for conversions. What senthil fails to tell you is that muslim percentage higher in telangana.

      So bifurcation gives coastal andhra to missionaries and telangana to owaisis. That is the plan. So the problem was YSR and Congress–not United Andhra.

      9. Senthil’s points about exploitation are also wrong. Telangana doesn’t change centralization problems. Only 2 separate states to exploit from Hyderabad–not one state that protects against water disputes.

      10. Senthil said this: ”Secularism will die a natural death in Cultural States:”

      Senthil fails to realize that United Andhra IS the cultural state. Traditional Dharmic Cultural state is being divided to form urdu hyderabad state to give to owaisis. Senthil apparently thinks Telugu brahmins can do sandhya in urdu/persian…

      11. Senthil has pretended he knew AP history better than telangana telugus in Nizam hyderabad state. These Telangana people were sanskrit scholars who knew their history better than a tamilian like Senthil, and thus, called it Nizam ANDHRA Mahasabha. Senthil has no answer for this other than guilt by assoc, saying it was congress scheme. But by that false logic/sophistry, India is also congress scheme. Looks like Senthil is anti-India too and wants to split up republic of India.

      12. Now senthil made worst mistake when he said Draksharamam marked boundary of Telangana–huge self-goal. Draksharamam is deep in coastal Andhra–it is very close to coast itself. Senthil pretends now it was “approximate geographic boundary”–THIS ALSO IS INCORRECT–Draksharamam is not even approximate (see how senthil is attempting to backtrack here). In fact, trilinga is origin for Telugu, not origin for Telangana. Senthil is now openly making up facts and speaking asatya. He can’t even bring himself to give point for point rebuttal. What an insult to his readers…is this the conduct of a brahmana?

      If senthil cannot even give a point for point rebuttal to my very first comment–then he should stop calling himself cultural revivalist. It is quite clear, Senthil has been proven wrong many times but never accepts due to false pride. This is why Rajiv Malhotra blocked him on twitter: “over opinionated”, suffers from “ORAL DIARRHEA”.

      Senthil owes his readers a retraction for saying his wikipedia map is proof of telangana. This was shown to be false–own map source says “speculative”. Senthil is neither debating properly since he failed to address points nor speaking the truth when he said Kalinga was coastal andhra (even children know kalinga refers to orissa). A true intellectual would accept mistake, issue retraction to benefit readers. If Senthil can’t do this, then readers can see the quality of his work and would be advised to take it with huge grain of salt.

      • nyaya says:

        “the urban india should explain on what basis do they consider themselves as nation?”

        Urban India hindus recognize their civilizational nationhood comes from Dharma and the dharmic tradition embracing shruti and smriti, shastra and purana, kulachara and charitra, samskruthi and samskrit. (they recognize it is not merely one thing, but all these things) Rural ajnaanis confuse dharma with kulachar–they claim to have vidya but neither have viveka nor buddhi. Dharma is the moral and cultural tradition that binds all varnas–kulachar/varnashrama dharma is only one part.

        During nizam time, hyderabadis used to give support to obscurantist brahmins who falsely interpreted our texts and traditions in order to divide hindus. Looks like history is repeating itself–which is why some so-called traditional hindus are using invented wikipedia maps to justify urdu-speaking Telangana state.

        Rural people are so obsessed with jathi, they fail to see that they cannot fight Chinese and Pakistanis with bow and arrow. Modern war means modern weapons–and modern way of organizing army and state to defeat enemies of dharma. Obscurantists would rather lose the war–even give their women as vyas would like to do–rather than adapt dharma to modern times. Sri Krishna himself adapted dharma to needs of kurukshetra (i..e. “ashwattama attaha kunjaraha”) because there is yuga dharma and sanatana dharma. Obscurantists focus on literal text (or make it up like Senthil does) rather than understanding the principle of Sri Krishna

        It is up to people whether they want Dharma to win or lose…

        • senthil says:

          /** Urban India hindus recognize their civilizational nationhood comes from Dharma and the dharmic tradition embracing shruti and smriti, shastra and purana, kulachara and charitra, samskruthi and samskrit. (they recognize it is not merely one thing, but all these things)
          **/

          Pls tell me what dharma of our ancient civilization, does the urban indians are following today? I challenge you to prove any ONE aspect of dharma that is followed.. doe they folllow shruti, shastra? do they follow kulachara?

          • nyaya says:

            ” I challenge you to prove any ONE aspect of dharma that is followed.. ”

            What challenge can you give? You yourself are trying to follow brahmana dharma while not being brahmana. You are breaking your narrow definition of dharma yourself…haha

            “I challenge you to prove any ONE aspect of dharma that is followed.”

            Samskruthi. it is urban indians who are preserving our philosophy, music, literature, dance, language, history, and cuisine through books and institutions.

            Samskrit. It is urban Indians who are encouraging people to restore sanskrit to its rightful place.

            Shruti- It is urban Indians who are protecting Shruti from perverted translations by mlecchas.

            Shastra-It is urban Indians who are trying to take wisdom from shastras and make it relevant today. Rural imbeciles live in a time warp and forget that while principles of dharma are the same–organizations have to be adapted to modern times. Rural buffoons want to use bow and arrow (and swiss army knife) against chinese cyber war and nuclear weapons.

            Charitra-It is urban indians who are fighting foreign academics to make sure real history is restored.

            Worst of all–rural imbeciles are the main reason congress party keeps coming back to power (even now you said you would support foreign fonia congress with pranab mukherjee). This is because rural people don’t have true understanding of the world and obsess about jathis–wasting time attacking their own people instead of fighting common enemy.

            Now I challenge you, to give a source that says kalinga=uttarandhra not orissa and that draksharamam is in Telangana

      • senthil says:

        You did not provide any substantiation or proofs for your claim.. you are simply making statements of denial, refuting my points..

        I have asked what legitimacy does seemandhra people have over telengana.. and i have asked what connection do the urban indians have with our ancient civilization? I challenge you to write a comprehensive answer for my question.. do not attack me ? just make your points on your own strength of argument..

        • nyaya says:

          “You did not provide any substantiation or proofs for your claim.. you are simply making statements of denial, refuting my points..”

          Can you not read above? Do I have to repeat myself every time? I have given clear explanation with links in first two comments on this page responding directly to your article. I have given substantiation–it is you who have not. You are just making up facts and being stubborn in saying you are right–NOT A SINGLE SCHOLARLY/TRADITIONAL PROOF was given by you

          “I have asked what legitimacy does seemandhra people have over telengana..”

          What legitimacy does a tamilian have to lecture on telugu history?

          I have given you source proving Andhra =Telugu and Telugu=Trilinga. I have given you history to show seemandhra people and telangana people were one before muslims came. It is you who are supporting colonial persian turk project that is why you use turuska tactics to avoid answering questions.You avoid the question and try to give counter challenge–because you can’t give knowledgeable answer (i.e. kalinga=uttarandhra, and draksharamam in telangana).

          ” i have asked what connection do the urban indians have with our ancient civilization?”

          I have answered. But you failed my challenge–you FAILED to give comprehensive answer to my first comments and links above. So you there was no strength to your argument–only opinion–just like Rajiv Malhotra criticized you for.

          1.you used your opinion to say sanskrit scholars from telangana were wrong to call their organization Nizam Andhra mahasabha. Where is your Proof? Not “blunt denial” or guilt by assoc tactics–but proof?

          2. you used your opinion to say trilinga referred to telangana (not telugu) and draksharamam was Telangana boundary (huge self goal). I have given proof showing trilinga–>telinga–> telugu and draksharamam in Coastal andhra: see map:

          https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&q=draksharamam&fb=1&gl=us&hq=draksharamam&cid=0,0,8581839981905060542&ei=cRyHUuyUAbOHyQG_-oGQBA&ved=0CJQBEPwS

          So don’t issue challenges when you yourself have run away from giving comprehensive answers, and scholarly sources. Wikipedia and opinion aren’t scholarly. This is not “attack” but statement of fact. Don’t be oversensitive. Argue on fact, not opinion.

          • senthil says:

            @nyaya,

            1. Your own source clearly says the term telugu and telinga came from the term “Trilinga”.. the prakrutha term is “Telinga”.. and the muslims called it as “telengana”.. you are wrongly projecting as thought entire telengana identity was given by muslims..

            2.
            /** I have given you source proving Andhra =Telugu and Telugu=Trilinga. I have given you history to show seemandhra people and telangana people were one before muslims came.
            **/

            No .. you have not given any such proof.. Telugu = Telinga.. but where is it mentioned andhra == Telugu ?? also, there is no proof mentioned by you to prove seemandhra and telengana were ONE..

            3. You provide complete non-sensical answers as sweeping statements and then claim it as Facts and proofs.. there is ONLY offense in your statement and NOT any intellectual content.. if you want the satisfaction of winning me, then pls have it.. dont struggle too hard to ridicule me and then claim victory..

            4. /** you used your opinion to say sanskrit scholars from telangana were wrong to call their organization Nizam Andhra mahasabha
            **/

            Nizam andhra mahasabha was formed by Congress morons, and you cannot expect me to consider this as proof or source..

          • nyaya says:

            “1. Your own source clearly says the term telugu and telinga came from the term “Trilinga”.. the prakrutha term is “Telinga”.. and the muslims called it as “telengana”.. you are wrongly projecting as thought entire telengana identity was given by muslims..’

            Hahaha. What a joke! You are blatantly lying. Here is the EXACT text of the source I gave:

            “The name Telugu, is said to be derived from Trilinga, “the language of the three lingas,”…The Telugu country was called Telingana by the Muhammadans”

            My source clearly said TELUGU country was called Telingana by the persian-turk-muslims. It is I who said Telugu came from Trilinga all along. It is you who said Telangana came from Trilinga. Telugu is Telinga (it is only your pathetic wiki map that speculated telinga separate from andhra). The source I gave you clearly said that Andhra was sanskrit name for telugus, telinga was prakrut name for ALL TELUGUS, and Telangana was muslim name for ALL TELUGU LAND. Readers can clearly see this,

            2. No .. you have not given any such proof.. Telugu = Telinga.. but where is it mentioned andhra == Telugu ??

            Learn to read. Same source for point 1 said this at top of p.33:

            “Telugu is called Andhra by Sanskrit writers”. You’ve lost senthil. At least have some integrity to accept you have been disproven.

            http://books.google.com/books?id=yhXRDSgBuL0C&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=telugu+trilinga+srisailam&source=bl&ots=u3xQljR0uZ&sig=NyY7qbCDS1tFoRQiQbwEQ8wzuGk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Oz-IUqnPB-bV2AXk4oHYDA&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=telugu%20trilinga%20srisailam&f=false

            3 “dont struggle too hard to ridicule me and then claim victory..”

            You deserve ridicule. You’ve been lying through your teeth about sources calling them “traditional”–when they were mere wikipedia speculative nonsense that actually contradicted you with 2 versions in 2 diff maps. You are picking and choosing like buffet calling it “traditional”..

            Your entire blog post is OPINION passed off as fact. I have given SOURCE AFTER SOURCE (ENTIRE COMMENT FULL OF LINKS) and you just spout your made up nonsense trying to avoid being a good person who accepts mistake, corrects, and moves on. This why Rajiv Malhotra called your remarks “oral diarrhea”–you keep repeating same dirt no matter how many corrective proofs are given.

            4. “Nizam andhra mahasabha was formed by Congress morons, and you cannot expect me to consider this as proof or source..”

            Uh, they were sanskrit scholars from Telangana and far more educated than you. Same congress people advocated for Independent India–are you against that too? I think they know their own background better than rural non-telugu imbeciles. Telangana people themselves called themselves Andhra. I gave additional source proving Andhra referred to ALL TELUGUS. Check mate.

            You were also comprehensively debunked on draksharamam. You didn’t even know it was in coastal andhra (mere 20-30 miles to bay of bengal). You don’t know what you are talking about. Multiple people have said this.So don’t lie–you will only lose what little credibility you have left.

            My good faith suggestion is that you accept your mistake for offering wrong “proofs”, issue a retraction, but KEEP your opinion and articles with minor changes. It is your blog. So if you want to see telangana, fine. But don’t make up facts and then submit sub par work to vijayvaani just to match your tamil-interest opinion.

          • vyas says:

            It’s funny this person is showing citations from a book written by an author who supports Aryan Invasion and most of his quotations point to citations mentioned by Caldwell, and you want us to believe them? Shameless. Nyaya is shamelessly defeated and now doesn’t know how to defend. He keeps googling to find out some junk evidence and just cuts and pastes data from here and there.

          • nyaya says:

            Ah yes, the return of the profanity using, temper losing, mahabharata ignorant, dravidian physical attack on brahmin denying, repeatedly debunked vyas.. So illogical, commenters actual state they avoid him with their noses pinched… What would we do without him!

            Your ignorance of the author is not my problem. R. Narasimhacharya is a well known kannada scholar of Sanskrit. He wrote during the british empire and his writing is naturally reflective of that period–it doesn’t change the substance of what he said about Telugu and Andhra. But of course, both you and senthil have always attacked the person rather than the prose–because you are ignorant of the facts.

            Here are more sources proving the same: Andhra was used in Sanskrit to denote Telugu:

            “Telugu is the principal language of the state…Andhra is the name given to it since medieval times”

            http://books.google.com/books?id=i4pvVOd2L0cC&pg=PA281&lpg=PA281&dq=telugu+trilinga+srisailam&source=bl&ots=uQQGdDV_uo&sig=AlrA0J21Y7vCVyQr7BnOjfOVLXo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E0CIUtyrFqit2QX_g4CYAg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q&f=false

            Aww, poor vyas is defeated again…

          • nyaya says:

            And again:
            “Telugu is the principal and official language of the State. It was also referred to as `Tenugu’ in the past. `Andhra’ is the name given to it since the medieval times. Some argued that `Telugu’ was a corruption of `Trilinga’ (Sanskrit meaning three `lingas’).”

            http://www.aponline.gov.in/quick%20links/hist-cult/languages.html

          • nyaya says:

            And again:

            “The language now under consideration is called Telugu or Tenugu. The Sanscrit name is Andhra. It has also sometimes, though improperly, been called by Europeans Gentoo. The words Telugu and Tenugu are corruptions of the word Telinga, which is the same as Trilinga, and means–the country of the three lingams.”

            http://books.google.com/books?id=tW8IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=telugu+trilinga+srisailam&source=bl&ots=-3g6S7e0zL&sig=keGZw0V3wHnzGqROzFMvgAr4pPM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BECIUvriHISC2wW5x4GYDg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=caldwell&f=false

            To recap for our readers. That’s five different sources (including the AP government portal as well as a modern book on the history undivided Andhra pradesh) to senthil and vyas’ combined 0 sources for draksharamam in telangana and kalinga is “unambiguously” uttarandhra. I think it’s clear who’s purveying junk.

            So we thank our much chastened, subdued (he will have to google both words) and defeated vyas for his usually comedy show–egg on his face, kya routine, yaar! What would we do without the entertainment value he provides…

    • nyaya says:

      Link by same map author for Senthil’s dubious talavahanas-telinga mahabharata map.

      This is why author said talavahanas-telinga connection was “speculative”. Because first map shows telingas in telangana (which senthil uses) but second map by SAME author shows Telinga in coastal Andhra–this shows he had no clue where “speculative” telinga desam was. Thus even talavahanas’ location was speculative:

      • senthil says:

        This map is an approximate map.. there may or may not be errors in it.. the location of the dhesams are fixed based on the river basins .. telengana region is based on godavari river basin (and partly krishna river basin)..

        I have repeated many times, that river basin, mountains and catchment area are the main factors in demarcation of our ancient dhesams.. pls look at this map from that perspective..

        Also pls note that, there has NOT been any proper study about our indigenous history so far.. we have ONLY colonial narrations.. the person who has created this map has done a valuable job, because it directly contradicts the colonial narration of history.. this has to be appreciated and further built upon it..

        For eg, many hindu intellectuals say the gandhara dhesam is present day afghanistan.. but this map clearly shows on which river basin was gandhara located, and differentiates it from the Sakas (present day pashtunistan)..

        also you have to note that i am researching in to our indigenous history that was either unknown or hidden from us by the colonial government.. i do it on my part time and in my personal capacity, by gathering details from various sources.. for most of the data i get, there is no Official Proof.. these data are alive in people’s memories..

        To give an example, i got to know about kalinga vysyas, when i met a person in bangalore who hails from there.. he told about the social fabric of his area, and described about brahmins, katris (kshatriyas), and the commune structure there.. Similarly i got details about rajasthan societal structure from a pushkarni brahmin in bangalore.. he told about thakurs, and the 18 jathi commune there..

        all these data points to a common civilizational framework, which none of the colonial narrations ever teach us.. the colonisers had written history based on their own western thought framework, which is totally wrong, as these ground level datas indicate.. i strongly feel, that its time to totall reject all forms of colonial historical narration and start building an indigenous historical framework based on our own Indigenous study of our society and historical datas..

        My humble request: pls look at the data from open mind (instead of the obsession to disprove me).. there is nothing that i could get by separate telengana state, NOR from United AP..

        • nyaya says:

          “This map is an approximate map.. there may or may not be errors in it..”

          Hahaha, Senthil, my friend, you have been caught!! Your same source has given TWO DIFFERENT LOCATIONS on TWO DIFFERENT MAPS for fake “Telinga desam”. This is YOUR OWN SOURCE.

          You said this above:

          “senthil says:
          November 9, 2013 at 4:45 pm
          Pls focus on the issue alone.. the location of talavahanas mentioned in mahabharatha points to the present day telengana region.. pls answer for this point…’

          WRONG!!! There was NO specific location given in Mahabharata for talavanas.
          Readers can clearly see the TWO maps by YOUR SOURCE. 1 which shows telinga in modern telangana region and 2. which shows telinga in COASTAL ANDHRA itself. TWO Different locations for Talavahanas/telinga. Telinga talavahana connection is itself speculative.

          So I have answered your point–it is you who have been disproven. Now do the decent thing and accept like a true dharmic. Lying is for mlecchas and asuras.

          “I have repeated many times, that river basin, mountains and catchment area are the main factors in demarcation of our ancient dhesams.. pls look at this map from that perspective..”

          YOUR OWN MAP DOESN”T KNOW WHERE TELINGA DESAM WAS–two different versions. YOU ARE INVENTING YOUR OWN LOCATION–BUT YOU POINT TO A WIKIPEDIA MAP AND REPEAT SAME CATCHMENT BUSINESS LIKE BROKEN RECORD.

          “Also pls note that, there has NOT been any proper study about our indigenous history so far.. we have ONLY colonial narrations.”

          You are the one giving colonial turk narrative of Telangana desam. This is owaisi narrative not traditional indigenous narrative (I have given this above). Trilinga refers to Telugu.

          “For eg, many hindu intellectuals say the gandhara dhesam is present day afghanistan.. but this map clearly shows on which river basin was gandhara located”

          Your MAP ITSELF SAID IT IS NOT ACCURATE SOURCE (“speculative”)!!! Hahaha. It is only you who are claiming it is traditional history. But same map shows you are wrong on Kalinga so now you say your map “may or may not be accurate”. So this means you use the map when it supports you and call it inaccurate where it doesn’t–a true scholar doesn’t behave this way…

          “also you have to note that i am researching in to our indigenous history that was either unknown or hidden from us by the colonial government.. i do it on my part time and in my personal capacity, by gathering details from various sources”

          AND YOU ARE NOT AT ALL QUALIFIED TO DO IT. YOU USE WIKIPEDIA MAP AS A SOURCE. REAL historians, both traditional and modern, would laugh at this.

          “To give an example, i got to know about kalinga vysyas, ”

          Hahaha. This is not proof. You were debunked on Kalinga=Uttarandhra. You can’t even provide a real source to support what you said about kalinga “unambiguously” being uttarandhra. Now you are going by jati hearsay (jati x told me this) when it suits you. But when lakshman who is an actual niyogi brahmin told you about niyogi history–you tried to correct him on telaganya–saying that is proof of telangana. But then you reject Rajeev malhotra’s point about Gandhari being proof of Afghanistan Gandhara and Kandahar. That shows there is no methodology or “field work” to your writing–only opinion A real scholar bases opinion and view on facts.

          You form opinion first, then talk to some people, read a wikipedia map, and then call them “traditional sources” that are proof based on “deep study and 3 year research”. Opinion of speculative wiki maps is not proof.

          You have quoted Rajiv Malhotra and his work many times—but Rajiv Malhotra himself found your “field work” and “research” laughable, unscholarly, and unimpressive and blocked you on twitter:

          “Senthil has ORAL DIARRHEA syndrome in other forums also. Over opinionated” 18 Sep 13

          You are passing off “opinion” as “traditional” and “indigenous” history. This is not appropriate behavior for any scholar or anyone claiming to be “cultural revivalist”.

          • senthil says:

            i have told you many times to focus only on the subject being discussed.. in all your comments, you spend most of the words in attacking me rather than discussing the subject.. if you continue writing like this, there is no use in continuing this debate..

            I have explained you that the river basins, catchment area and the mountains are main demarcating points for our ancient dhesams.. if you could not understand these concepts, better we stop this debate.. if you want to be declared as winner, you have it.. i have no issues..

          • nyaya says:

            ” if you continue writing like this, there is no use in continuing this debate..”

            You are making up facts, not providing sources, and then lying about what sources said (i.e.when you said no proof for “andhra is sanskrit for telugu”). The point of me posting Rajiv Malhotra’s comment is to help the debate–you are repeating same mistakes of being “Over-Opinionated” and not admitting mistake when obvious.

            This is not the way to debate. So if you are not capable, then don’t debate. I merely began my comments on other Telangana article explaining why you were wrong. But you never acknowledged the obvious—even draksharamam, where you showed you didn’t even know geography.

            “if you could not understand these concepts, better we stop this debate.. ”

            You didn’t even give source for your “catchment” concepts. You didn’t even give traditional source showing draksharamam in telengana. It is quite clearly who is operating at LKG level with childish understanding…you.

            You don’t even know the history and geography of Andhra. It’s quite obvious you can’t even read a map–since both your wiki map and draksharamam google map completely disprove you. Only children fail to understand this. Adults can see you are wrong.

            So if you want to debate, learn to speak the truth. Don’t lie to cover up your pride. Even your pride doesn’t make sense since you are advocating strict view of jatis, but you yourself are not a brahmana, and therefore, disqualified by jati system from interpreting texts.

  25. senthil says:

    @nyaya,

    the debate is possible only when you are focussed on debating the subject and NOT attacking the person.. even in the recent comments made by you, there is no substance in it and no intellectual content.. just name calling and ridiculous moral arrogance on your part.. most of the lines in your comments are just personal attacks and does not discuss any worthy content..

    This is my personal blog and i had presented my views on telengana.. you can express your opinions here, but cannot dictate or abuse me to do this or not.. name calling, debunking, ridiculing and personal attacks are NOT a way of debate.. (pls remember i had NOT made any personal attacks on you so far..)

    So i will participate in further debate only if you stop your rash comments..

    • nyaya says:

      @ Senthil, debate is only possible if the other party is speaking the truth, so don’t try and distract with business about personal attacks when you yourself referred to “idiotic statements” above.

      You failed to acknowledge the fact that your own talavahanas map showed two different locations (merely mentioned some unrelated trivia about catchment areas) after you yourself said this:

      senthil says:
      November 9, 2013 at 4:45 pm

      Pls focus on the issue alone.. the location of talavahanas mentioned in mahabharatha points to the present day telengana region.. pls answer for this point…

      But I have now given you a second map by YOUR source showing a different location for talavahans in the Coastal Andhra region. This alone disproves you since you said talavahanas were in telangana–your own source shows even this is “speculative”.

      If you cannot even accept this, then how can you enter debate. There were no “attacks” in this comment senthil, so if you have to accept this point disproving you.

      “This is my personal blog and i had presented my views on telengana.. you can express your opinions here, but cannot dictate or abuse me to do this or not.. ”

      Yes, I have said this even before you. I wouldn’t have even bothered commenting in this intellectual cul de sac, but you are also submitting articles on this topic to vijayvaani misinforming readers.That is the problem. You are passing off opinion and calling it proof–even though your own sources contradict you.

      “pls remember i had NOT made any personal attacks on you so far..”

      You didn’t have to–you allowed your friend vyas to attack me instead and you didn’t even rebuke him for his use of profanity. That is not the way to run a blog.

      Also, even this statement of yours is incorrect since you yourself attacked me above calling my statement “idiotic”. You also have called urban indians “morons” and “moronic”. These are attacks too. So when the blogger himself lowers the standards, what will commenters do…

      Whether you accept it or not, Senthil, the 2 versions show your talavahana-telangana theory to be unfit to be the basis for your article:

      A good debater and blogger would accept these facts, and issue a retraction for his mistake.

      If you want to end the debate to try to cover up the truth, fine, close the comments or do whatever–but it will only show your readers that you had no intellectual response to my rebuttal. Choice is yours.

      • senthil says:

        @nyaya,

        i have explained all those mentioned by you, and it is you who are blindly repeating the same blind statement..

        1. The location of talavahanas is said to be b/w kalinga and andhra.. and i pointed you that this region maps to present day telangana region.. you did not address this point, and obsessed with mere names.. you cannot expect exact name in mahabharatha as being used today..

        2. You accepted that telugu came from the word “Trilinga”, which means land b/w three lingas.. this land is present day telangana and your coastal andhra is NOT part of this region.. pls answer this point in brief manner (without dragging irrelevant things or personal attacks)..

        3. regarding the other maps, i answered you that it was prepared based on River Basin.. telangana is based on Godavari river basin & its catchment area.. and andhra is marked at Krishna River basin.. did you ever care to read that point?

        4. You said both kalinga dhesam and Odra dhesam are One and Same.. i provided you extracts from Nepal Inscription, which mentions both odra dhesam and Kalinga dhesam clearly indicating both are different dhesams.. you are NOT accepting this, and in turn obsessed with modern orissa state created by britishers.. if Colonial States are your benchmark, then your own andhra pradhesh was part of madras province and did not exist before independance..

        Please answer without indulging in personal attacks.. FOCUS ONLY ON THE SUBJECT ALONE.. if you cannot follow this in your next comment, i will stop responding to you..

        • nyaya says:

          “i have explained all those mentioned by you, and it is you who are blindly repeating the same blind statement.. ”

          No you haven’t. You ran away from the fact that your own wikipedia map gave second version (readers can clearly see link up comment thread) showed “speculative” telinga-talavahanas in coastal andhra. You said name may be speculative but location wasn’t speculative–but your own map source shows even location was speculative–proving you wrong.

          You are just blindly repeating your opinion. This is untruth.

          “1. The location of talavahanas is said to be b/w kalinga and andhra.. and i pointed you that this region maps to present day telangana region.. you did not address this point, and obsessed with mere names.. you cannot expect exact name in mahabharatha as being used today.. ”

          Like I just said above, YOUR OWN SOURCE showed 2nd map with talavahanas-telingas in coastal andhra (nowhere near modern telangana). So even mahabharata–which you improperly cite– does not say location in telangana. You are failing to address this point–don’t pretend I am not. Stop pretending you weren’t disproven.

          “2. You accepted that telugu came from the word “Trilinga”, which means land b/w three lingas.. this land is present day telangana and your coastal andhra is NOT part of this region.. pls answer this point in brief manner (without dragging irrelevant things or personal attacks)..”

          Accepted? I have been saying from the beginning Telugu comes from trilinga. You said Telangana comes from trilinga–which is wrong:

          “senthil says:
          November 17, 2013 at 11:18 am

          “Trilinga (sanskrit name) -> Telinga (prakrutham) -> Telingana or Telengana”

          –that is your statement contradicting you senthil

          You also said this:

          http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/telengana-the-continuing-debate/#comment-13021

          “senthil says:
          November 10, 2013 at 8:23 pm
          “Kaleswaran, Srisailam and draksharama – these mountains form the borders of telangana region..”

          Draksharamam is NOWHERE NEAR telangana. It is practically on bay of bengal itself–deep in coastal andhra. So you didn’t even understand the geography properly. Stop pretending you weren’t disproven,

          “3. regarding the other maps, i answered you that it was prepared based on River Basin..”

          You didn’t prepare the maps, senthil. someone else did. And they showed two different versions for the locations (one in telangana one in coastal andhra). You can keep blindly repeating “river basin”, “catchment” area–but this is a completely irrelevant and nonsensical answer. Someone else prepared the map and gave source as Mahabharata and showed “telinga-talavahans” not in Telangana, but coastal andhra. Stop pretending you weren’t disproven.

          “4. You said both kalinga dhesam and Odra dhesam are One and Same.. i provided you extracts from Nepal Inscription, which mentions both odra dhesam and Kalinga dhesam clearly indicating both are different dhesams.. you are NOT accepting this, and in turn obsessed with modern orissa state created by britishers..”

          You are changing the subject again to distract from your being disproven.

          Here is what I said in very first comment:

          Since wikipedia (wiki derived sites) is his favorite source. I have given link in second comment, here is proof:

          “Senthil says no proof and that orissa was odhra desam–THIS IS INCORRECT. Odhra desam only 1 part of orissa and gave it’s name to orissa/odisha.’Kalinga (Oriya: କଳିଙ୍ଗ, Devnagari: कलिङ्ग,Telugu: కళింగ) was an early republic founded in central-eastern India in 1200BC, which comprised most of the modern state of Odisha.[1]””

          I already answered your point by showing you through Orissa sources themselves (see second blog comment for links), that orissa people identify with kalinga. Kalinga and Oddhra are both part of Orissa–you were saying ONLY Oddhra was Orissa/Odisha. Oddhra gave its name–kalinga gave great history (kharavela, etc) that oriya people identify with. Kalinga was most of Orissa.

          You, however, were completely disproven–since you said kalinga is “unambiguously” uttarandhra. This is completely nonsensical and silly statement. Not only did you fail to substantiate this–I gave YOUR OWN Source proving Kalinga is part of Orissa. So stop pretending you weren’t disproven.

          You are now giving incomprehensible and illogical answers Senthil. Even non-telugu readers can see you don’t know what you are talking about, merely repeating your same disproven nonsense and then pretending like your position has been validated. When that fails, you whine about “personal attacks” while you yourself attack people, in a vain attempt to distract from your defeat in debate.

          “if you cannot follow this in your next comment, i will stop responding to you..”

          So stop, or continue with your natak–doesn’t matter to me. Readers can plainly see you have become desperate to distract from the fact you were disproven on all points and made colossal blunders by saying kalinga is “unambiguously” uttarandhra, trilinga is origin of telangana, and draksharamam is in telangana.

          An honest intellectual would have recognized these self goals and issued a retraction to his article. Instead you pretend like my sources (cause you never give real sources yourself only opinion) validated your position, when in reality they disproved you (i.e. trilinga is origin of telugu, not telangana).

          The more you continue like this and show hypocrisy and stubbornness, the more your own readers will lose faith in and respect for you…You are only hurting yourself and your own credibility and reputation…

          • senthil says:

            @nyaya,

            Since you did not stop personal attacks on me, there is no point in continuing this debate.. i wont be responding to your comments, what ever you may conclude..

          • nyaya says:

            Awww…poor sensitive senthil is giving up and retreating using his predicted “personal attacks” pretext as part of his natak.

            According to his rules for debate, senthil is free to use attacks like “idiotic”, “moronic”, and “nonsensical”, but he gets all emotional if people point out he has been speaking untruth and that he has been contradicting himself.

            No matter; readers both here and on vijayvaani are now familiar with senthil’s logic-free, hypocritical routine and are ridiculing him there too (see bottom comments): http://www.vijayvaani.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?aid=3015#LeaveCmtTitle

            While senthil lost this debate long ago (despite his stubbornness and denial), here is a closing remark for the readers (assuming senthil doesn’t speak untruth again and decide to start responding again) of why Senthil FAILED to make the case for a traditional telangana desam:

            1. his own map source said talavahanas mentioned in mahabharata may or may not be telingas–they admitted they were speculating about “traditional telangana desam”. senthil admitted names were speculative.

            2. the same map source gave second map showing same “telinga” desam not in telangana as senthil insists, but in Coastal Andhra. This disproved senthil since it shows location of talavahanas-telingas also speculative–whereas he said location confirmed to be telangana–wrong.

            3. senthil wrongly said telangana name comes from trilinga. I showed multiple sources that showed telugu–not telangana–came from trilinga. Senthil then lied and pretended like he was saying this and I finally accepted that telugu came from trilinga–when I had been saying this all along. I even gave multiple sources proving Andhra is sanskrit name for Telugu,

            4. senthil then made COLOSSAL blunder by saying trilingas were borders of telangana. But he didn’t even understand basic geography, because I showed draksharama (one of the three) is deep in coastal andhra–nowhere near telangana. Senthil lied again after that–but despite all his nonsensical ramblings about “catchment areas” and map preparation–he was caught.

            5. senthil scored HUGE self-goal by saying kalinga is “unambiguously” uttarandhra, when his own wiki map source showed kalinga as most of modern orissa and that modern oriyas most identify with kalinga. Oddhra merely gave name to Odisha/Orissa.

            6.senthil FAILED to show non-urdu/muslim cultural differences between so-called telangana people and seemandhra people. He failed to understand that United Andhra is the traditional cultural state going back to ancient times.

            7. senthil FAILED to show origin of telangana word. I have given proof to show telangana was the persian name for all telugus (whom they called “telangis” hence telangana). Cowardly nizam gave coastal andhra and rayalaseema to british—that is why in modern times, telangana only refers to that region. historically–all of AP was “telangana”.

            8. senthil FAILED to explain how he would tackle caste politics with his jati obsession. Jati was the reason hindu reddy’s gave support to evangelist YSR Reddy. Bifurcation will continue to see caste division in telangana and seemandhra. It will give seemandhra to evangelists and telangana to owaisis (who are already demanding urdu as first language and inclusion of rayalaseema districts to increase their religion numbers). Thus, even so-called telangana may not be formed–only Rayala-Telangana which is stealth Nizam Hyderabad state.

            WORST of all, senthil has shown how intellectually bankrupt, unrepentantly illogical, and blatantly dishonest his writings are. People on twitter (Rajiv Malhotra and vyasa 2), here (lakshman and zed), and vijayvaani have all seen how illogical and hypocritical senthil is:

            *he claims he is for strict traditional jatis, but he is a non-brahmana wrongly doing brahmana work of interpreting texts.
            *he has no qualification to interpret shruti and smriti–but he has the arrogant audacity to claim kulachar comes before shruti (the word of God) and smriti (in what universe?)
            *he claims he is for rural india–but enjoys living in urban india
            *he decries so-called seemandhra “exploitation” of telangana, but gets upset if people point out how vellalars are considered exploiters of bc’s and sc’s.
            *he decries personal attacks, but attacks me with words like “idiotic” and all urban indians as “morons”.
            *he claims he can’t accept nizam andhra sabha formed by telangana people because they were “congress morons”–but senthil uses Nehru (most famous “congress moron”)as support on Telangana
            *he claims he uses traditional sources, but wikipedia and his own (unqualified and unlettered) opinion is what is cited most

            Can such a hypocritical person be relied upon as a “cultural revivalist”?

            So beware, dear reader. Do not be taken in with false claims of “traditional” this and “jati dharma” that. The nizam of hyderabad used such obscurantists to divide hindus/sanatanis in hyderabad state. Senthil turns jati against jati, telugu against telugu, south indian vs south indian (i don’t blame all tamilians for his stupidity), and hindu vs hindu. Whom will this ultimately benefit?

            Perhaps this is why senthil fights against hindu unity. He is not pseudo-secular, he is pseudo-dharmic. He uses the terminology to try to impress people–but he neither understands the concepts nor has knowledge of the history and geography of India and purpose of dharma, And when exposed, he doesn’t have integrity to accept mistake.

            Senthil is neither traditional nor rural nor dharmic. He is merely yet another member of an agricultural landowning jati upset at losing traditional privileges in villages–so they pervert kulachara and pretend there is no one dharma. Kulachara perverted is merely a pretext to exploit–probably why senthil advocates for devadasi system.

            Remember dear reader, do not be taken in by pseudo-dharmic, pseudo-intelletuals: there is one sanatana dharma and one goal (moksha), all jatis and paramparas and sampradayas must work towards this though they prescribe different paths.

            So assuming senthil doesn’t speak falsehood again and respond to this directly or indirectly–I bid you all farewell…

          • senthil says:

            @nyaya,

            No browbeating.. i am ready to debate ONLY if you focus on the subject alone ..

          • nyaya says:

            “i am ready to debate ONLY if you focus on the subject alone ..”

            See, you spoke untruth again…you said you wouldn’t respond and you responded…

            I gave you chance for past month to debate honestly and respectfully, senthil, but you chose to ignore, mischaracterize, use your opinion instead of fact, distract by proxy, delay, and then when caught, outright lie. I have summarized exactly why you had lost and why no proof for “traditional telangana desam”. It’s there for readers to see and decide. They don’t need you to spin after clock has stopped.

            Personal attack is just an excuse as it was you who were calling people “morons” and “cowardly” and saying “idiotic” to me. I tried to be nice at first, but you gave me no choice due to your natak. Then you got upset because I showed people you were lying and you used “personal attacks” as an excuse to run because you were desperate to distract from your factual blunders. Now that I am leaving your blog, you are trying to make excuses for your failure.

            If you speak untruth and make up facts–that is not honest debate–that is why Lakshman got fed up with you and left and Rajiv Malhotra said you are “Over opinionated” and have “Oral Diarrhea”–that is the difference between real intellectuals and charlatans. You were also criticized for it on vijayvaani, twitter, and now here–common factor is you and your misbehavior and hypocrisy. “Personal attacks” is only a convenient excuse to save your (unfounded) pride–because you were unable to debate honestly.

            It’s your blog, and you can do as you please, but bloggers have a responsibility to communicate truth to readers not promote hypocrisy. It’s quite clear you’re only interested in misinforming with your crackpot theories and disinforming to advance your harebrained agenda. Otherwise you would have chosen to maturely and honestly debate me weeks ago, You didn’t, and I disproved you.

            Don’t whine now that debate is over…sour grapes…

  26. senthil says:

    And Finally..

    Historically telangana people had strongly opposed united AP.. but Nehru at that time had forced this merger under a promise that they can get divorce at any time.. so when telangana people are demanding separation, there is NO single reason for seemandhra people to demand united andhra..

    • nyaya says:

      Hilarious comment. You should be a comedian.

      “but Nehru at that time had forced this merger under a promise ”

      *Funny, you are citing Nehru here (worst of “congress morons”–your words not mine) but don’t accept Nizam Andhra Mahasabha started by Telangana telugus (proof that telugus of both regions called Andhras) because they were “congress morons” so you cannot accept. Can you even understand how you undercut yourself?

      *You have provided no sources for your statements–only opinion and wiki maps. Do you even bother to read mine?

      *You have also failed to do proper research to see that politicians like KCR and Chenna Reddy manipulated telangana people for power, that is why they are inventing “telangana culture” with urduified telugu. KCR in turn is servant of owaisis and nizam people trying to recreate Nizam Hyderabad state–that is why KCR is pushing for 12% reservation for muslims. Looks like you are supporting reservations too because so-called “telangana people” are supporting it…

      *I have also shown that telangana was merely muslim name for Andhra/Telugu country and that Andhra name itself referred to Telugu—multiple sources not just one to show used interchangeably (deafening silence from you). Most of all, I have shown what you called “traditional jati-desam” and “dharmic” is merely “speculative”. Serious writers and intellectuals do not base their work on opinion and speculation and wikipedia. That is why Malhotra openly criticized you for being overly opinionated and even your own loyal readers are saying you don’t have knowledge on the topic…

      This may be your blog, but readers have a right to know that what you write here and submit to vijayvaani is neither true nor intellectual research with a “traditional” “dharmic” fieldwork basis. Merely saying “traditional” and “dharmic” thousand times doesn’t make it so. Your legitimacy as a dharmic is wholly suspect.

      Wikipedia is not a traditional source—and even that has contradicted you so you are running on empty petrol tank of your own non-brahmana opinion–despite your obsession with “traditional jati system”.

      If you do not have knowledge or ability for honest intelletual debate—fine, no need for you to keep responding to me, since I had already starting making closing remarks exposing your tactics and fake research to readers and why you were defeated.

      Now even Surya Ramachandran (certainly not a Telugu person) has made a wise point about you below. How many people does that make now senthil? Forget me (because of “personal attacks”), there’s Rajiv Malhotra, vyasa2, zed, lakshman, and Surya Ramachandran all criticizing your lack of knowledge and your “personal attacks” natak.

      It is quite clear who is operating on “unsubstantiated fact” and even untruth by pretending sources validate him when they actually contradict him. That is not the behavior of a dharmic, an intellectual, or a “cultural revivalist”

  27. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** Why are you not doing that now when it comes to vanadevatha and other rituals followed by your own jaathi?
    **/

    I have no issues in explaining the rituals followed in our area.. i will certainly do it.. i only said that i DONT want to justify anything to those urban indians, who says that anything NOT scientific should NOT be allowed..

    For eg, so many traditional sidha vaidhyas were persecuted under the blackmagic law, and forcefully stopped from practicing sidha in their traditional form.. In the name of scientific validation, the global capitalists have totally taken over all our traditional skills and had corrupted it.. what bloody business does the urban indian government have to run a sidha or ayurvedic college??

    While everyone is obessed with the threats posed by missionaries and islam, most of the people are ignorant of the “religion of science” that had destroyed all that we had.. anything that does not conform to the science (as defined in west) are destroyed and persecuted.. i want you to realise this danger which is more destructive..

    The urban indians are the main supporters of this “Religion of Science”, and that’s why i am scolding them..

    So i can explain the rituals and practices of my jathi for those really interested.. but NOT to those people subscribing to the religion of science..

    The urban hindus should understand that they themselves are virtually under this trap, and are forced to justify many of the rituals they practice in their life, to those western scientific community .. why should we do that?? is there any necessity for us to prove ourselves to the western science ??

    • vyas says:

      Senthil – You are talking about westernized urbans whom I completely reject. I care a damn about them. My concern is about those Indian urbans who are caught up in the so called intellectual mess and don’t know how to progress forward. They are helpless, but at the same time don’t want to accept things out of blind belief. It is they who need help from people like you. All they are asking is not scientific reasoning but just plain reasons. For eg., we put vilva garland for Shiva and Tulsi garland for Vishnu. Is there no reason behind why we do so? It is things like this they ask for.

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        There are manythings for which we might not know the answer.. i do not know why vilwa is used in shiva temples and tulsi is used in vishnu temples.. but i have faith in these rituals, and i follow based on it.. i can suggest to the urban indians to have faith in our rituals..

        NOT all things are done based on reasoning.. for eg, why should there be 21 gunshots in official cermony of Prime Minister or President? why 21 ??
        Also why should judges wear black gowns?? why NOT brown or blue??

        these are colonial standards that we follow… when we dont question these colonial standards, why should we question our culture??

        The first thing we should teach our youngsters is to stop questioning and start practicing.. the macaulay education system devised by missionaries are designed to make hindus doubt their own religion.. this is what one of the pastors who ran a convent in mysore wrote in 1900s.. that’s what we are witnessing today..

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        I have another argument for this..

        The fundamental reason for our cultures and rituals can be discovered or realised at any time.. but we have to make sure that these cultures and rituals are followed continuously by successive generations.. our parents followed it so that we could experience and question.. we may not have got answer.. but its our duty to follow these culture as it is and pass off to our children..

        Hope you would agree with this…

        • vyas says:

          //Hope you would agree with this…//

          The question is not about you/me agreeing with it. It’s the next generation that matters. For eg. people like you are already minuscule in number right now. If this continues, people with alternative ideas will seize to exist in the next generation and the few remaining will be weakened and will slowly perish.

  28. Zed says:

    Senthil,
    “i cannot answer for vithandavatham.. the main issue here is the legitimacy and ownership of the region.. your urban india had destroyed villages and your urban indian government had destroyed native administrative system.. you now saying that i should accept these destructions, as times have changed.. what logic is it ?”

    And I cannot answer for your half-baked knowledge and lack of facts in raking up the division of Andhra.
    As you have confessed yourself, you are one of the urban morons who are oppressing your own Jati by your existence.
    You can choose not to accept it. You can fight it, or you can go live in a village.
    Curiously, you (and your vijayavani friends) do not do that. You become part of the cabal only to vent online about your Jati and all.On one hand you yourself are an agent that is committing the destruction and on the other hand you complain about it. What kind of logic is that?

    you don’t get your butt out of chennai yourself but you want people to move out of hyderabad. How stupid is that to even make such an argument?

    You have a good perspective on how things were done in the past. That in itself would have been a very enjoyable read and awesome content. Your post about toilets was very good in putting the perspective. You could have gone beyond that but instead chose to abuse folks eking out a living in cities (which, once again, you are one of those yourself). Living in chennai yourself you want to throw stones at folks in hyderabad…no wonder a lot of people see thru your hypocrisy.

    • Surya Ramachandran says:

      I would suggest to people like senthil to actually work for separating Kongu Nadu frist with their logic. Once that is done they can focus on Andhra.

      Till now @senthil has not found a solution to convert Muslims to the Hindu fold, and has been in denial as though all Muslims were foreign to India. If he doesnt believe so, I would request @senthil to first propose a solution to convert the Muslims/Christians. Until such a solution is posted, and implemented, I will not agree that @senthil has a better knowledge of history. If he doesnt post it, it means he is no different from a secularist who avoids the problem.

      • senthil says:

        @surya,

        It is the people of Telangana who is demanding separate state.. i am merely supporting their claims.. and i am pointing out that bifurcation is NOT good, and we have to divide andhra in to four regions based on ancient history and also based on geographical parameters (like mountains, river basins etc) ..

        Regarding re-converting muslims and christians, i had already explained in my previous articles.. the christians maintain their jathi identity, and hence respective hindu people of that jathi can re-convert their christian counter parts.. christian reddys can re-converted ONLY by hindu reddys and NOT by hindutva.. the portugese christians maintain their brahminical identity & culture and they can be re-converted based on their own history..

        why is the hindutva people refuse to understand this or accept this? the problem is with your ideological mindset which prevents open minded thinking..

        Regarding muslims, i had clearly pointed out the ethnicity of different muslim groups.. there are very clear demarcation b/w converted muslims and the foreigners.. for eg, the muslims of Hyderabad are pathans whose ethnic homeland is pashtun areas.. they can re-convert ONLY to their own pashtun culture which was destroyed by islam..

        and if we base our arguments on ethnicity, we can easily counter christiantiy by saying that Jesus was ONLY GOD of israel and NOT our land.. but none of the hindutva people are ready to accept this argument..

        So there is no point in opposing me as a person.. pls focus on the points (subject) i am raising here.. all that i say are NOT found in mainstream texts or in academic.. so it may be difficult for you to accept this..

        • Proud Indian says:

          Based on the facts collected from families that served Nizams and are descendant from border Karnataka and Maharastra in true sense Hyd/Nizam province, Telugu speaking portion of Hyd province got merged to form today’s AP(God knows for whose benefit it was merged-pun intended.). If Telangana ppl asks for Telangana state, I think it should not be mentioned as separate state out of AP, Well…. as it was merged to form AP…the process should be called as “de-merger” thats all..

          • senthil says:

            Exactly.. it should be called “De-Merger” or freedom from colonial AP.. the linguistic chauvinists one one side and the Business men /politicians who had heavily invested in hyderabad on the other side are opposing this de-merger..

    • senthil says:

      @Zed,

      Please tell me, how can one go back to their roots which was destroyed by your urban india? the traditional economic system, the traditional administrative system, the lands, and every other resources were colonised by your metro indian government.. how do you answer for this?

      You can live in your metro center ONLY when there is a metro administrative system active.. similarly i can be able to go back to my village only when the traditional administration system is restored.. why are you refusing to see this point??

      • Zed says:

        Senthil,

        “Please tell me, how can one go back to their roots which was destroyed by your urban india? the traditional economic system, the traditional administrative system, the lands, and every other resources were colonised by your metro indian government.. how do you answer for this?”

        don’t you think the same argument applies to people from Andhra? How come you don’t want to go back to where you came from and instead enjoy life in chennai while you want hardworking Telugu folks to go back to their roots.
        Nobody leaves their place unless something was destroyed, nobody like to stay away from their family and traditional networks.
        You leave your place for the same reason people from districts left to go to hyderabad: opportunities.
        So let’s see, you don’t go back yourself but instead whine about urban india while you want people to leave Hyderabad.

        Like a good gandhi boy you don’t make the same argument for tamilians living in hyderabad or moslems living in hyderabad. your half-baked knowledge applies only to telugu people living in hyderabad. You don’t even seem to have the sense to see that the same point applies even to tamil people living in chennai i.e. you!

        And by the way YOU ARE urban india. so stop with the bitching. You are like the little servant boy with no self-respect who lives off the morsels of food thrown at you by urban india and then you have the gall to complain online. Go to the villages, there are millions trying to make the life in rural india better. You don’t want to join them. You don’t want to one thing to help them. Instead you ditch your Jati for the easy life, join in the loot of resources and then turn around to complain about urban india.

        You want Telugu people to go back while you give excuses that strangely apply only to you about why you don’t go back. Have you no shame?

        • senthil says:

          @Zed,

          /** How come you don’t want to go back to where you came from and instead enjoy life in chennai while you want hardworking Telugu folks to go back to their roots.
          …..

          So let’s see, you don’t go back yourself but instead whine about urban india while you want people to leave Hyderabad.
          **/

          I have advocated division of Tamilnadu in to four states, based on the same “ancient Dhesam” criteria that i applied to telangana.. i never wanted to live in chennai, but am forced to work in chennai.. Infact, i could NOT tolerate the rape of villages at outskirts of chennai, by the big industries and by expansion of this metro..

          So please dont try to debunk me as though i am ONLY having issue against andhra.. i am calling for total re-organisation of states across india, based on these ancient dhesams..

          /** Nobody leaves their place unless something was destroyed, nobody like to stay away from their family and traditional networks.
          You leave your place for the same reason people from districts left to go to hyderabad: opportunities.
          **/

          Exactly.. but should we meekly accept the destruction as “Change of Time” or should we take steps to rebuild our roots and live there happily?
          Pls realise that we are caught in a loop.. the displaced people of seemandhra occupied the resources of hyderabad for their sustainance, and this causes the displacement of the native telengana people.. who in turn displaces people of the areas they migrate to..

          I am ONLY calling for stopping of this cycle of destruction and displacement..

          I am surprised, why you are NOT able to accept this point..

  29. Surya Ramachandran says:

    @Senthil
    Sure, Lets try to reconvert all to their own identities. I am neither in favor of Telengana NOR United Andhra.

    In the mean time I had watched this video.

    What is your take on this video ?? This touches on “Dominance” by Kammas on Madigas/Mallas.

    • senthil says:

      It is natural for some jathis to dominate in a particular area.. only when we understand the traditional societal fabric of that region, we would be able to understand this..

      The video you quoted is a kind of research study by a westerner, from their own perspective.. since americans see everything based on Power and authority, they had approached our society based on which caste is powerful and dominant.. it is part of their “Divide & Rule” policy, where they decide on which caste to channel their funds to create conflict..

      The very ideology of “Oppressed vs oppressive” caste is their well planned design to destroy society..
      ————–

      But i have a different question.. when the americans are so eager to study the society of our country, why there is no such enthusiasm from the urban indian folks ??

  30. KOUNDINYASA says:

    As per my opinion Cast/Sub_cast are base from Hindu Religion. The Indus civilization informs that the origin of Hinduism is from North India with Sanskrit Language from Aryans. Later this was developed with Dravidian script by the Dravidian ans. Telugu language is born from Tamil language as per the ” RAMAYANA ” by the RAMANAD SAGAR. So that way Tamil language got first ” PRACHINA BASHA HODHA “.
    kindly INFORM THE SUB-CAST OF THE BRAHMINS WHO ARE LEAVING BETWEEN GODAVARI & GANGA MADHYA DESHASTHE ” irrespective of languages. cast/sub-cast is belongs to religion but not Location.

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