Native Brahmins and Non-Native Brahmins

Few days back, i came across a Choliya Brahmin through my friend.  While casually interacting with him, there was a discussion about the sharp divide among different sects of brahmins.  In that he was saying that the Vadama brahmins treats them as untouchables, and will perform purification when the choliya brahmins entered their house.

This was very interesting to me, and as usual, i wanted to explore more on this.  I asked him more about this, and i am summarising what he explained to me.

The vadama brahmins are those brahmins who came from North long back, and they enjoyed more power in Chola kingdom than the choliya brahmins who already lived there. The Choliya brahmins were called as Tamil Brahmins.  There is no matrimonial alliance b/w the vadama and tamil brahmins, eventhough both are smarthas.  The vadama consider themselves as superior than choliya brahmins and wont allow them inside their houses. The religious rites for the deceased (like Thithi, etc) was attended mostly by the tamil brahmins, whereas the vadama do the more lucrative yaga and yagnyas for the royals.  Because of this, the choliya brahmins, who do such low end jobs are NOT respected. He said, that those who homams earn a lot, but those who do rites for the deceased, do not earn much.

Since i was already exploring our original civilizational framework of “Bharatha Varsham and its 56 Dhesams”, i was able to connect the dots based on the historic reason behind these social realities.

And i told him, that when vadama brahmins practice such harsh untouchability against choliya brahmins, their treatment of other non-brahmin communities, would be much more harsh.  (Here by the term “Harsh”, i doesnt mean any ill-intention towards them.  )

I asked, how was their relation with other non-brahmin communities, particularly those jathis classified as SC by the govt.  As expected, he said that there was not much problem b/w the tamil brahmins (Choliya Brahmins) and the other choliya jathis (choliya vellalar, choliya parayar, choliya arunthathiyar etc).   The problem is more acute only b/w the vadama and the choliya non-brahmins jathis.

This is an important aspect, which most of the people (mainly the free thinking hindu intellectuals) fail to recognise.

All those incidents of so called ill-treatment by brahmins, which those anti-brahmin gangs often point out, are by those non-native brahmins and NOT by the native brahmins. Because the non-native brahmins had entirely depended upon the kings for their survival, which had alienated them from other social groups.  This also gave them a royal status, and naturally, a sense of superiority complex.   And these non-native brahmins, got enormous grants and endowments from the kings.  When our native kings were defeated by the britishers, these brahmins lost their patronage, and joined the British Beurocracy and started serving them.  Whereas, the Native Brahmins (eg: Choliya Brahmins), continued their traditional life, because they depended on the other non-brahminic jathis (particularly vellalas) for their survival, and this inter-dependency had ensured a cordial and mutual understanding b/w those native communities.

Non-Native Brahmins in Tamilnadu:

I will list down those non-native brahmins in tamilnadu.  Readers from other areas, can identify such non-native brahmins in their areas.  (Again, pls note that this is NOT to incide hatred against them, but to find out reason for some of our social issues, which the dravidar kalagam and communists gangs had been blowing out of proportion).

  • Telugu Brahmins, Vadama, Brahacharnam are non-native brahmins.
  • Those Telugu Brahmins who came along with Vijayanagara Kings ( eg: Subramanya Swamy :) .. )
  • Maratha Brahmins who came with Venkoji, the brother of Chatrapathi Shivaji who captured tanjore and ruled it.

The above are major brahmin groups whom i could recall.  There can be minor groups, whom i might have missed.

Who are Native Brahmins?

The following are the list of native brahmins in Tamilnadu.

1. Choliya Brahmins

2. Pandiya Brahmins.

3. Konga Brahmins

4. Thondai Brahmins (also called Dravida Brahmins).

These are the brahmins who are in the vaideeha profession in large numbers, and follow their tradition.  These brahmins have cordial relationship with all other non-brahmin communities, even though they follow untouchability.

The concept of Nativity:

Nativity arises as the result of first settlement.  I have mentioned about the 56 dhesams of Bharatha Varsham.  When these dhesams were built by our kshatriyas, they invite different social groups and settle in their dhesam, and divide the roles each people group to play in the society.  It is through this legitimacy, that all jathis (including those classified as Dalits), have specific rights over their villages and village temples.

The first settlers have the unquestionable rights over their land.  As such, the people group, who first settled when a dhesam is built are the natives to that region.

Ethnicity:

The first settled society in a region, not only gets the nativity, but also the ethnicity.  The ethnicity is based on the new dhesam formed by clearing the forests.  NOT by the invading groups.

Why Nativity is very Important:

Nativity is very important in social life. All the native people are inter-related, inter-dependant, and are part of the society built by the king.  Each group have a specific role that is complementary to other people groups of the society in that ethnic dhesam.

Also, each native people group will have specific rights over the land and resources of their grama / nagara.  For eg, in any village of Chola Dhesam, the Choliya Vellalars, Choliya Brahmins, Choliya Parayars etc have specific rights over their village temple festivals.  Pls refer to my earlier post  where i have reproduced a historic copper plate inscription that allocates roles to each people group of a village near coimbatore.

The non-native people usually dont have any rights over the temples or lands in a region.  As such, the choliya brahmins have exclusive rights over most of the ancient temples in most gramas in chola region, whereas vadama and maratha brahmins do not have any right.  They have right only over new temples where they were explicity invite for.

Similarly the maratha brahmins, who came as part of maratha army, dont have such a complementary social roles with respect to other communities of the chola dhesam. Because the dhesa dharma & culture of marathas is different that of the chola dhesam.  Same with Vijayanagara Brahmins.

Nativity and Ethnicity gives solution to our social problems:

Nativity and ethnicity helps us to understand our social issues.  Because, these give us a picture of the historical background of the society, and its issues. and when we understand our issues with clarity, we can easily counter the propoganda and also find a solution to this.

For eg, if any one accuses brahmins of untouchability, i would ask them which brahmins.  Those who threw allegation would be confused at this first question itself.  Because, they themselves dont have any understanding of our society, and merely repeats the colonial propoganda.   So far, i have defeated the opponent with this first question itself.

Many of my community people, who subscribe to dravida ideology, will tell stories on how the brahmins lawyers ill-treated them/their parents , and how brahmin officers have oppressed them.

I will explain to them that not all brahmins are same, and those brahmins in government positions are telugu brahmins and NOT brahmings of our region.  And i will further point out, that even though vellalas have come out of the profession, the native brahmins are still doing their vaideeha profession inspite of extreme poverty & hardships, and it is a sin to abuse the native brahmins for the wrongs committed by Non-Native brahmins.

This has beautifully worked out, and most of those DK abhimanis, accepted my explanation.  The anti-brahminism had largely been defeated by me in all debates.  This is possible, only because i see our society based on ethnicity and NOT based on religion (Hinduism) or  Ideology (Hindutva).

The readers can think on these lines and analyse their society of their ethnic region.  There will certainly be inter-relation b/w brahmins & non-brahmin communities of same ethnicity.

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160 Responses to Native Brahmins and Non-Native Brahmins

  1. swami says:

    I would say this Perfectly makes sense. The word “Vadama” represents from north.

    I would like to know some more perspectives too.By this are you also legitimizing the aryan invasion theory which also talks in the same lines ? in SOUTH “brahmins came from outside” i.e their outside is Europe but in the context of south “outside is north india”. So are you legitimizing the DK idealogy by this argument too?

    On the contrary, has vadama or telugu brahmins have always been in vaidheeha in the past before and after migration to TN? Thyagaraja was a music composer as opposed to a vaidheeha. How do you classify scientists, astrologer, mathematician, economists, think tanks etc. There are lots of them like that like chanakya. They were not doing “vaideeha” in the context of a a temple archakar. If that is the case, these brahmin class that remained as this strata of the society performing R&D, economists, think tanks are still doing the same tasks in todays society too though their life style has changed.

    I am not merely supporting. but just trying to understand how these categories fit into

    • swami says:

      what i am trying to say is Brahmin Varna can be classified into 2 layers
      Layer 1 – Doing vaideeha i.e take care of temple, poojas and all spiritual activities
      Layer 2 – R&D, education, preaching, teaching, innovation, economist, law makers, think tanks.

      So the DK propoganda “brahmins abused shudras” would still be a false argument as the layer 2 of brahmin were always anyhow doing “soft work” i.e not physical work
      and was closely interacting with the kshatriya layer and a little less with the “godly” work

      I already raised this point in another blog few years back but probably it didnt drive much attention.

      • senthil says:

        /** So the DK propoganda “brahmins abused shudras” would still be a false argument as the layer 2 of brahmin were always anyhow doing “soft work” i.e not physical work
        **/

        No.. Layer-2 done by brahmins is NOT shudra.. as i said in my previous comment, Brahmins were knowledge holders, whereas shudras were those who were technicians, engineers who implemented the knowledge.. the brahaminic code of life decides whether one is a brahmin or not.. since brahmins in Layer-2 involved in knowledge oriented and did not actually do the work, they were able to maintain brahminic code of life, which requires strict cleanliness.. whereas those shudras, who physically have to do the occupation, cannot maintain the utmost cleanliness..

        • swami says:

          @Senthil,

          /*it is a sin to abuse the native brahmins for the wrongs committed by Non-Native brahmins */

          Senthil, i think you misunderstood my comment on layer 2 brahmins. I didnt intend to equate them to Shudra varna.

          what are the “wrongs committed by Non-Native brahmins” during the chola period ? their presence and relocation from lets say vijayanagara to chola, was it seen as a threat in chola is my question?

          what are the “wrongs committed by Non-Native brahmins” during/post british is something we can understand that. but if this group of brahmins were always involved in non-archakar work, then what they did after the british rule is also the same from a “societal role” point of view but yes they adapted a different life style.
          i do understand that this brahmin group has predominantly taken the societal space like gumasthas, judge, clerk etc. If you claim that as a wrong, they should take up the guilt of working hand in hand in british. But then other indian jaathi people who was in british police force should also carryisnt same amount of guilt right?. Is it fair to say this?

          • senthil says:

            /** what are the “wrongs committed by Non-Native brahmins” during the chola period ? their presence and relocation from lets say vijayanagara to chola, was it seen as a threat in chola is my question?
            **/

            I do not say it as wrongs.. rather, i say it as the dis-connect b/w the non-native brahmins with other communities of the region..

            The native brahmins lived in villages, along with other jathis.. the rights and roles are shared with other jathis on hereditary basis.. for eg, if a choliya brahmin have the hereditary right of pooja in temple, the choliya vellalas will have administrative rights, and choliya parayar will have certain rights.. since all these are on hereditary basis, there is a mutual bonding among these jathis forged by generation long interaction.. there is a commonality of purpose.. So when a choliya brahmin practices untouchability, he doesnt behave rude to other jathis, (Say to the parayars).. and other jathis also understand the purpose,

            Whereas, the non-native brahmins, live in nagaras, serving the kings.. due to this, they are dis-connected from the common people and this gives them a superior status (like Upper Class status for those wealthy in today’s urban centers).. when they practiced untouchability, the behaviour towards native lower jathis become some time rude.. we have heard about many stories from the media and communist groups on how brahmins ill-treated the dalits, and how brahmins consider the very sight of dalits as impure.. these are true, but mostly coming from non-native elite brahmins..

            I read some where, that during 14th century (i dont know exact date), a christian pastor writes that when the brahmins of madurai comes, the dalits have to hide himself some where.. This is NOT by pandya brahmins, but the brahmins of vijayanagara kingdom, who ruled madurai..

            I have my own personal experience.. we were shifting our house to new apartment.. one of my relative, mistkenly entered in to the neighbour house, which was a brahmin’s one.. the old lady there, was shouting with angry at my relative.. Eventhough i felt bad, i understand that these brahmins follow strict hygience & purity, and had got angry at the transgression of their privacy.. its a behavioral problem.. i explained this to my relatives, and they too understood..

            Why did E.V.Ramasamy get offended ? because he was insulted by brahmins in kasi.. (or atleast it is said like this).. But most of them dont know the fact, that he was very close friend of one of the Dikshithars family in Erode, ..

            The DK and communist gangs manipulate such incidents, and project them as form of brahminical oppression.. and we hindus are always on the defensive side and become reactionary.. When I started breaking this chain reaction and started analysing our problems independantly (free from those propoganda noises), i was able to understand the issues with more clarity..

          • senthil says:

            /** If you claim that as a wrong, they should take up the guilt of working hand in hand in british. But then other indian jaathi people who was in british police force should also carryisnt same amount of guilt right?. Is it fair to say this?
            **/

            Yes.. you are right.. even people from other jathis who worked for britishers also share the guilt..

            But in my past experience, i find that it is the dubashi brahmins, who fill the anti-hindu space, abusing our tradition & society.. Most attacks on “Brahmins” was coming from these groups.. when i say “I am a Non-Brahmin, and brahmins did not oppress us”, the reply from them is like “I am a brahmin, and i know how brahmins oppressed others”.. what will you say? and how will you counter them?

            When analysing these issues, i came to the realisation that using generic terms like “brahmins” & “Dalits” are self-defeating.. i also realised that those urban brahmins who left vaideeha dharma (both profession & life style) cannot be equated with those who are still vaideeha profession and live brahminic life.. So i started separating these two groups, and after that, it was extremely easy for me to counter them..

            In the same way, when i separated the Urban Westernised Metro Indian society from Traditional Bharathiya society, i was able to understand many of the issues.. it gave me the clarity and the ammunition to counter abuse on our tradition..

            I want those who mis-understood me, to understand this purpose.. Our aim is to defend our traditions.. NOT our urban population

          • swami says:

            /*Why did E.V.Ramasamy get offended ? because he was insulted by brahmins in kasi.. (or atleast it is said like this)*/

            Isnt this too much of a generalization? All made sense but in this line i was not sure what you were trying to infer? All brahmins of north india are equal to the vadama brahmins of tamil nadu that every north indian brahmin is “abusive”? Just trying to understand the significance of the statement.

          • swami says:

            Thats definitely a good approach to “split/classify and understand” though this could be easily misunderstood as “divide and conquer”. i use similar approach to group things that are similar and differ from other and classify them to understand the reality.

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      • vishwa says:

        in south indian history ,thers is no such thing as brahman,we have poojali,sage,rishi and muni’s to perform all Dravidian ceremony.

    • senthil says:

      “North” denotes the region to the North of Tamilnadu.. In tamil, the term “Vadugars” which denotes those who came from North.. In ooty, there is a community called Badugas.. this is nothing but vadugas, which means, those people who came from a region, north of ooty..

      So we have to look based on relativity and NOT on absolutism.. Vadama brahmins means, those who came from dhesams north of chola dhesam.. Similarly in Andhra, the brahmins who came from tamilnadu are called Dravida Brahmins.. right??

      In Gujarat, there are brahmins who have surname as “pandya”.. they are those brahmins who came from pandya dhesam..

      Aryan Invasion Theory is a Pig Shit (after all bull-shit is holy for us :) ), and doesnt fit in any of our history.. The term aryavarta denotes the region from himalayas to vindhyas, where our original civilization flourished.. South india was dense forest (Dandakaranyam), and hence not included as part of arya varta on those days.. Our ancient people never denoted areas beyond Himalayas (like central asia or iran) as arya varta..

      About Vaideeha:
      ——————-

      By Vaideeha, i meant, the life code followed.. not merely the archakas.. chanakya lived a simple life till his death following vaideeha dharma.. he never had the luxuries, eventhough he was the architect of grand mauryan empire..

      Brahmins took many roles, like astrologer, scientists, mathematician etc.. If we want to compare with today’s society, brahmins pursued pure science, whereas, all other jathis pursued engineering & applied science.. In today’s society, an engineer or industry, seeks help of academicians for research on given problem.. on those days, non-brahmin jathis sought help of brahmins for any problem in their profession..

      hope this analogy helps..

      • Zed says:

        “Similarly in Andhra, the brahmins who came from tamilnadu are called Dravida Brahmins.. right??”

        Wrong. The Dravida Brahmans in Andhra are those that moved in from Maharashtra, not Tamil.
        Maybe others can chime in, especially somebody from the Dravida Brahmana community.

        Senthil,
        This particular article is very informative to me. Thanks. YOu could not resist putting in your deshams concept and other slant in between but the experience of the community is something I did not know about before.
        Before we make up our theories, maybe, just maybe is better to listen/read to such experiences. We will gather more information.

        Curiously, where do you think the iyers and iyengars belong, in the native brahman community or from the settler brahman community?

        • senthil says:

          /** YOu could not resist putting in your deshams concept and other slant in between but the experience of the community is something I did not know about before
          **/

          Jath is meaningless without the dhesams, which it was part of.. i dont know why you people are skeptical about it..

          The very name of the jathis (Choliya brahmins, vadama brahmins etc) support my stance..

          /** Wrong. The Dravida Brahmans in Andhra are those that moved in from Maharashtra, not Tamil.
          **/

          Proof?? Dravida brahmins are those from dravida dhesam, which is the north tamilnadu (thondai dhesam).. maharashtra is NOT dravida dhesam..

      • G Avinash says:

        It has been mentioned that Brahacharanam are non-native brahmins but our whole tamil culture have been started near vindhya mountains. Then how it is being said that they are non-native brahmins?. Brahacharanam are having ethnicity of tamil language from the period of inception

        • senthil says:

          /** but our whole tamil culture have been started near vindhya mountains. **/

          there is no such thing called Tamil Culture.. same way there is no such thing called Telugu culture.. these linguistic identities are recent creation..

    • murali1955 says:

      Very frank analysis of unknown facts. i was just looking for a similar one as lot of wrong information is going around about so called Brahmins vs others. Incidentally I was looking for authenticity of brahmins ill-treating socially backward communities (i do not subscribe to the theory of low caste etc). even brahmins say they are suffering for the sins of their forefathers etc. can i get a real picture from you Sir? thanks nice write up.

  2. satheeshjm says:

    Interesting!
    Noob question.. What is “vaideeha” ?

    • senthil says:

      those who practice vedic way of simplistic life

      • swami says:

        this way of life is explained in detail in enge brahmanan serial and the challenges this life style faces in todays modern life and peoples mind set in urban set up.

        • dinesh says:

          Do only bhramanas practise vedhas or any jath can practice it

          • ONLY Brahmins have the permission to teach vedas..

            but whether brahmin or non-brahmins, there is strict life code that has to be followed for any one who wants to learn vedas.. and even if he follows, the concerned guru has to decide whether to teach him or not..

  3. ramachnadrasekaran says:

    முன்புதுபாஷிபிராம்மணர்களைவைத்துஇத்தளத்தில்ஒருகட்டுரைவெளிவந்தது.இக்கட்டுரைபிராம்மணஉட்பிரிவுகளைவைத்துவந்துள்ளது.வர்ணாஸ்ரமகாலம்முடிந்ததருவாயில்பிராம்மணசமூகத்திபாலேனிந்தஅக்கறைஎன்றே
    புரியவில்லை.செந்திலுக்கு”பிராம்மண”Obsession/maniaஎன்றநோயால்
    பீடிக்கப்பட்டுள்ளார்என்றுதான்யூகிக்கமுடிகிறது.செந்திலுக்குஉண்மையான
    வீரம்இருக்குமானால்கிருத்துவ/இஸ்லாமியர்களின்பிரிவுகளிலுள்ள
    சமுதாயஏற்றத்தாழ்வுகளைஅலசிஆராய்ந்துஒருகட்டுரைஎழுதினால்
    அவர்களின்வளர்ச்சிக்குஉதவும்.அந்தவிதமானவீரமில்லையாகில்
    உங்கள்ஜாதி/ஜாதிஹிந்துக்களின்யிலிருக்கும்குறைபாடுகளைஎழுதிக்களைய
    தொடங்குங்கள்.எல்லாஜாதியிலும்/எல்லாநாட்டிலும்செய்யும்தொழில்மற்றும்
    சமூகஅந்தஸ்துஅடிப்படையாகக்கொண்டுபிரிவுகள்உள்ளன.”அளவுதான்”வித்தியாசம்.தமிழ்நாட்டில்ஜாதிஹிந்துக்களானவேளாளார்கள்,கவுண்டர்கள்,
    செட்டியார்கள்,ரெட்டியார்கள்,நாயுடுக்கள்,தேவர்கள்,நாடார்கள்,பிள்ளைமார்கள்,முதலியார்கள்இன்னும்பலர்அவர்கள்ஜாதியிலேயேஅவர்களைவிடசமூக
    அந்தஸ்துகுறைந்தவர்களிடம்பேதம்காட்டுகிறார்கள்(உ.ம்)வேளாளர்களில்
    செங்குந்தர்கள்/படையாச்சிகள்/கவுண்டர்கள்ஆகியநிலச்சுவான்தார்கள்
    வேளாண்கூலிவேலைசெய்யும்அவர்கள்ஜாதியினரைதாழ்த்தித்தான்
    நடத்துகிறார்கள்/மற்றும்நாட்டுக்கோட்டைசெட்டியார்கள்,நகரத்தார்கள்
    ஆகியமேல்தட்டிலுள்ளவர்கள்எண்ணைச்செட்டியார்(வாணீயசெட்டி),
    கோமுட்டிச்செட்டியார்களைதாழ்த்தித்தான்நடத்துகிறார்கள்.திருமண
    சம்பந்தமென்றபேச்சுக்கேஇடமில்லை.அவர்கள்ஜாதியைத்தவிர்த்துமிகப்பெரும்பான்மையாகஅதே “ஜாதிஹிந்துக்கள்”ஜாதியில்/குடும்பத்தில்திருமணசம்பந்தம்செய்வதே
    கிடையாது.இதுஇப்படிஇருக்கஇவர்கள்தலித்/முஸ்லிம்/கிருத்துவகுடும்பங்களில்
    சம்பந்தம்என்றபேச்சுக்கேஇடமில்லை.ஆனால்இவர்கள்பிராம்மணகுடும்பத்தில்
    திருமணசம்பந்தம்செய்துகொள்வதில்தயங்குவதும்/வெறுப்பதும்கிடையாது.
    மாறாகவரவேற்கிறார்கள்.ஒரேஊரில்/கிராமத்தில்விவசாயகூலிக்வேலை
    செய்துவரும்வேளாளர்கள்/கவுண்டர்கள்தான்உயர்ஜாதிஹிந்துஎன்ற
    நினைப்புடன்அதேஊரில்அதேவிவசாயகூலிக்வேலைசெய்துவரும்மக்களை
    ஹரிஜன்என்றுபிரித்து/சேரி,காலணிஎன்றபிரிவைஏற்படுத்திகொடுமைகள்
    செய்துவருவதைக்குறித்துகவலைப்படாமல்செந்தில்ஏன்கட்டுரை
    எழுதவில்லை?மதம்மாறினால்சமஅந்தஸ்துஉத்தரவாதம்என்றுமுழுமூச்சில்போதனைசெய்துஅதைநம்பிமதம்மாறியகிருத்தவ/இஸ்லாமியர்கள்
    ஆகியவர்களின்தொழுகைக்கூடங்கள்முதற்கொண்டுஎல்லாவற்றிலுமே
    “இரண்டாம்/மூன்றாம்தர”வேற்றுமைகள்/பாகுபாடுகள்தான்நடைமுறைநிலை.
    அதனால்வெறுப்புண்டுமீண்டும்தாய்மதமானஹிந்துமதத்தில்குடி/தஞ்சம்
    புகுகிறார்களென்றசெய்திகள்நிறையவேவருகின்றன.பிரிவுகள்நிறத்தினாலும்
    நடக்கிறதுஎன்பதுசரித்திரம்.தமிழ்நாடேஇதற்குச்சான்று.திராவிடக்கட்சிகள்
    உருவாகமுக்கியகாரணங்களிலொன்றுஇந்தநிறம்.பிராம்மணர்கள்/ஆரியர்கள்
    பெரும்பாலும்எல்லாமேசிகப்பு.தி.க/தி.மு.கஆகியவைகருப்பு/கருப்பு,சிகப்பு
    கொடிகளைதங்கள்கட்சியின்சின்னமாககொண்டனர்.தி.க.வின்அறிவிப்பு
    அவர்கள்கருப்புஇனத்தவர்கள்(சிகப்புநிறத்தவற்குஎதிரிஎன்றுமறைமுகமாக)
    என்றும்தி.மு.கவின்அறிவிப்புவெளிப்படையாகவேசிகப்புக்குஎதிரிமற்றும்கருப்புவண்ணத்தின்கீழ்சிகப்பைவைத்துகருப்புஇனத்தவரின்கீழ்தான்சிகப்புஇனத்தவர்
    இருக்கவேண்டும்என்றகொள்கையைஉடையகட்சிஎன்றும்அடையாளப்படுத்திக்கொண்டனர்.எதார்த்தநிலமையைஎதிர்நோக்கும்போதுதங்கள்கொள்கைகளை
    காற்றில்பறக்கவிட்டுசிகப்புநிறத்தவரானஎம்.ஜி.ஆர்அவர்களின்முகத்தைகாட்டிஒட்டுவாங்கினர்.அண்ணாஅவர்களேஎம்.ஜி.ஆர்யிடம் “நீஉன் முகத்தை
    மக்கள்முன்காட்டு,தி.மு.கவிற்குஒட்டுவந்துகுவியும்”என்றுசொல்லிஅவரை
    கட்சிக்காகபயன்படுத்தினார்.அதாவது”திராவிடகொள்கைகள்”மக்கள்முன்
    எடுபடாது.தமிழ்மக்கள்colour/chrismaக்குத்தான்ஒட்டுப்போடுவார்கள்என்று
    அண்ணாஅவர்கள்அறிந்ததனால்எம்.ஜி.ஆரைமுன்வைத்தார்.தன்னுடைய
    கருப்புஇனத்தவர்ஒட்டுகேட்டால்அரசியல்செய்யமுடியாதுஎன்பதை நன்கு தெரிந்தவர்.இன்றுமு.க.அவர்கள்தன்னுடையகட்சியின்”பாரம்பரியத்தின்படி”
    சிகப்புநிறகுஷ்பூ நடிகையைகழகத்தில்சேர்த்துஒட்டுகேட்கஅனுப்புகிறார்.மு.க கருப்பு ஆட்களை தன் அவையில் சேர்ப்பதே கிடையாது.நல்ல சிகப்பு/மாநிறமான ஆட்களைத்தான் சேர்ப்பார்.

  4. Ram says:

    Yes, To my knowledge, Vadama Brahmins dont agree to marry Arthasastra Brahmins. I will discuss these sub-groups with elders & try to throw some light.

  5. poovannan73 says:

    How come the native,nonnative Bs brought from south of vindhyas,north of vindhyas/kashmir etc all share the same gothra .
    The gothra of other sudra and tribal groups are peculiar to their regions/language unlike the brahmins.
    Do the authors of local and alien brahmins agree that gothra has nothing to do with birth and people converted to gothras

    • senthil says:

      @ponvannan,

      Native brahmins are those who were settled in the dhesam along with other jathis, when it was created.. whereas Non-Native brahmins are those who came at a later period of time, either for special invitation of kings or as part of invading kings.. whatever it may be, the gothras are maintained whereever a brahmins go.. because they dont go as individuals, but as a commune..

      The gothras are same for all brahmins.. Not only that, the brahmins too have sub-gothras according to the dhesam..

    • G Avinash says:

      Actually some people have converted to gothra. Gotra need not necessarily have progeny. On those days rishis have travelled from places to places in india at that time they have formed gurukulam this teaching have inspired some people and they have decided to include the rishis name as surname

      • senthil says:

        this is only speculation.. the usage of gothra across communities indicates only the common paternal lineage..

        Even if your point is taken, the descendants of all gothras had stabilised for thousands of years and cannot be changed now..

  6. poovannan73 says:

    Nothing can be a better proof of migration of Bs across the country from afghanistan to kanyakumari than their gothras.
    clannish chidambaram deekshithars who marry within themselves within the same small group doesnt have the same gothra sysytem(i am not sure ,Bs can help)and marry within the same limited group for the past 100s of years irrespective of gothras.They have no connections with the other brahmin communities and are distinct in their features,habits,job profile where they perform all activities of the natarajar temple from security to pooja

    dravid falls under desashtha brahmins of maharashtra. the saurashtrian community in tamilnadu too calls themselves saurashtrian brahmins but where never accepted as brahmins.The same with bhumihars in bihar or golaks in maharashtra
    The origin stories play a major role in the brahmin status

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deshastha_Brahmin

    The Golak or Govardhans, follow the customs of the Deshasthas and claim to be Deshasthas. The other Brahmins traditionally did not accept this, and the Deshasthas did not socialise and intermingle with them.[25][26] The Maharashtra State Gazetteer records the Golak or Govardhan as being considered degraded because they sold their cows instead of rearing them.[26] Traditionally, the caste headman was generally someone with a smattering of Sanskrit and was called a Vedia. They were the earliest settlers in and around Nasik.[17] Golaks are divided into Kunda Golak and Randa Golak, both of whom are descendants of illegitimate offsprings of Brahmins.[27] The Kunda Golak are the offsprings of the adultery between a Brahmin father and a Brahmin woman who is not his legally wedded wife. The Randa Golaks are similar to the Kunda Golak in their origin, with the difference that they are the illegitimate descendants of Brahmin widows.[20]

    • senthil says:

      You need to come out of the colonial narration that all brahmins are of single race..

      • poovannan73 says:

        Nice to see you debunking rishi gothras and consider them as just names which has been used by people who performed the same jobs across a vast geographical area.
        The chidambaram dikshitars/namboodiris etc are tribal clans from the local same genetic pool as others unlike the ANI (ancient north indian stock )who absorbed the rituals/sanskrit from the migrant vedic missionaries and even their gothras as they considered it as a superior status.
        sudra communities like vanniars too tried to mimic them and create their own myths of jambu maharishsi where all vanniars claim that they have originated from the jambu magarishi tree and call themselves as jambu maharishi gothra a name which is never part of the sapthrishis.The communities accorded a low status tried to remove that by mimicking the gothras/rituals/prevention of widow remarriage etc to proclaim a higher status
        Quiet a bit of communities now under OBC have tried those tricks of claiming brahmin status across the country but where always ridiculed and made fun off inspite of their attempts.The attempts of shivaji to get the gothra/upanayana done inspite of opposition is recorded in detail and your theory of local brahmins being more accomodtaive falls flat as shivaji has to search sevreal hundred kms to get brahmins to crown him

        • senthil says:

          You are manipulating the debates.. i never debunked brahmin gotras..

        • Surya says:

          vanniyas are not sudhras, they are kshatriyas.

          • senthil says:

            Vannniyars are tribal communities.. they are NOT part of varna system.. the present day claim made during british census..

          • vignesh says:

            vanniyars are kshatriyas not tribals pls read vanniyar puranam

          • senthil says:

            @vignesh,

            There is no shame in accepting as a Tribe.. vanniyars are mostly fisherman communities and also forest dwellers.. that is their home land, and they sustainedly lived there for thousands of years.. they joined armies of various rajas as soldiers..

            kshatriyas are NOT as powerful as one might think.. they are the weakest force in todays world dynamics.. the kshatriyas were unable to face the brutal onslaught of muslim invasion, it is the tribals and pastoral communities which effectively checked the muslim invasion..

  7. Anonynous says:

    You could have a point because in north India most brahman jatis are well integrated with the locals.In Bengal and TN, Brahmins/kshatriyas entered British bureaucracy in large numbers and that was the result of their arrogance in last 150 years.In a way karma has caught up as both communities are now slowly moving towards extinction.In Bengal the elites misled the shudras and Dalits about Islam and left them to their death in Bangladesh and these days even in west Bengal.especially the genocide in 1971 led to the deaths of millions of Hindus.
    I think you are mistaken that the later migrants are more abusive and arrogant. You have mentioned the migrations of kings and Brahmins across India,which used to happen periodically. Apart from this,kings, warlords also used to import Brahmins for yajnas,temples or sometimes even land development. So there was a regular stream of Brahmins and other jatis in small numbers migrating into various regions of India. So to say that all non choliya Brahmins are not integrated I think is wrong. Brahacharanas and vadamas have been coming since 500 ce and have lived in peace with locals and involved in society for about 1000 years at the least. Many have local kula deivams and did not mistreat the jatis they came into contact with.
    The turning point came with British rule. The loss of power of the older vellala politicians,the artificial famines,the destruction of jatis and their industries led to a great anger among the public. Brahmins now took up and monopolised clerk jobs for the British and were seen as aiding the oppressors. Also naturally from the rigorous Brahmanas lifestyle they started to be worldly and many became corrupt. While showing off their jati superiority at every step,they were not equal to their ancestors in intelligence and character. I have heard that some lied in court after accepting bribes, in an era when it was believed that a brahman would never utter a lie, and cases were decided on this assumption. The moral character and idealism for which society patronised them was diluted heavily. Naturally there was resentment against this hypocrisy,especially from non-Brahmins who had risen in the same system and expected to be treated as equals (reasonably I think) but which was not forthcoming from Brahmins. For example a brahmin collector would not treat a shudra collector with dignity(but in old kingdoms this was not the case; same govt post meant your voice had equal weight)
    As the demands for freedom got stronger, and since brahmins were prominent in the movement(eg vanchinathan,vvs iyer), the British used this feeling and funded the dravida movement complete with cultural,linguistic and ideological wings. There was also the underlying aim of preparing Tamizh Nad for separation from bharata civilisation and probably moulding it into a Christian outpost like the Philippines. The dravida parties were mainly composed of disgruntled persons and had no vision for the people as they claimed. In reality, all of them wanted the British style oppression and corruption to continue, because that was the system they knew well. Becoming real rulers would mean they would have to exert themselves and create something new which is always difficult. They have chosen the easy path and milked the brahman arrogance for long enough.
    My main point is that Brahman groups, with few exceptions in TN have been living with other jatis reasonbly for a long time and you can’t say that brahacharanam or vadama or telegu are non native. Many of them have made political and cultural contributions and people have accepted them for long periods of time. As you know, even brahmadeya grants were not made freely but only in consultation with all the parties who would be affected. Looking down on choliyas happens mainly because of wealth and power arrogance, as they did not enter the bureaucracy and gain during the British period.

    • senthil says:

      Vadama brahmins were living for thousands of years.. i agree.. my point is that they did not have the inter-dependancy with other sections of the society, as they directly depended upon the king..

      It is these non-native brahmins who first took to the british beurocracy and occupied it, whereas the choliya brahmins and native brahmins in other areas are the ones who are remining in vaideeha dharam.. what’s your say on this?

      • anonymous says:

        Yes the first point is correct.Mainly Vadama,brahacharanam,telugus lived in small agraharams/cluster around specific temples unlike the older brahmanas,who were part of the village.While this reduced interaction and interdependence, it was not absent and of course they also gave and received services from most jatis.Also being invited for specialist purposes,they were usually given enough land to lead a simple life(later ownership increased as some of them became part of the oppressive zamindari system).

        During all this time there was a balance between vaidika and niyogi people,and in every family you could find at least couple of persons doing advanced rituals or study and mainly abstract activities,whose value was recognised and supported.A few also were warriors and fought as soldiers or mid-level commanders under various kings.
        Among brahmins there the yajamana purohit relationship,which means that a group of brahmins will be supported by specific patrons,and they should guide and help the patron family spiritually as well as in real life. So most brahmans previously did not solicit work,and accepted new patrons only rarely.(exceptions exist like some pandas,purohits but mainly in tirtha/sthala where they perform other functions like geneology etc) See that this system would rapidly result in correction if a Brahman fell below the standard;his patrons would leave him and no one new would support him.
        Since their yajamnas were few and they themselves were isolated, Brahacharanams, vadamas etc. were often unemployed, as all could not be brilliant and take up advanced work.so when british took over and their minimal patronage ended,and clerkships came these persons took up this job which was secure,not so strenuous.After that the story is well known.It must also be mentioned that most of these families had fallen into very hard times when the rulers changed and their patronage was cut off as you have noted.Some survival pressure was certainly there.
        Since choliya brahmans had the majority as their yajamanas,they never felt the need to take up new work, and no social pressure was there to earn more status through british jobs as was the case with vadama,brhacharanam etc.The population of vadama/brahacharanm was relatively small, and also through clannishness they got most of the clerky jobs and gave up deep study,and high ideals on a large scale, which was the defining purpose of that jati. The vaidiki niyogi balance has been shattered and more seriously, the depth and solidity of the community has been compromised, as one can confirm by meeting many of them. The few who are sincere and want to regain tradition are also prevented and frustrated by the unavailability of teachers or guides and anyway in cities you will be consumed if you act idealistically.
        .

  8. Shan says:

    Vadama brahmins have 2 sects

    Chola Desa Vadama and Vada desa Vadama

    The Chola Desa Vadama were invited in by Raja Raja Chola or a bit earlier

    Most of the Iyengars are vadama converts

    Ramanuja was born a vadama around 1200 AD, So Vadama or Chola desa vadama has been in TN for over 1000 years

    Brahacharanam is much earlier than Chola desa vadama. I can visually identify a brahacharanam vs vadama. Vadama have some amount of dravidian admixture and brahacharanam have a lot of dravidian admixture and many of them could pass as velala

    Vada desa vadama came with Vijayanagar
    as did EVR – kannadiga and Vaiko and MK – telegu

    The point is all castes practise untouchability – 2 tumbler system etc
    But I doubt that even the most racist brahmin ever had the power to physically oppress anyone

    • senthil says:

      Thanks shan.. so it shows that brahmins themselves are NOT one cohesive entity.. Why are we considering whole brahmins as one single entity, when different brahmins groups do not even marry among themselves?

      Who did this? is it Dravidar Kalagam, or those non-native brahmins who embraced british beurocracy, who attempted to build a brahmin race?

      Its time that we understand our society from our own perspective (without any bias of identity or ideology)..

      We are looking everything from the perspective of religious society.. i strongly feel, this is wrong.. the europeans, who could NOT think beyond religion, had imposed the identity of Hinduism on us, and we are making ourselves a prisoner of that.. can we come out of it?

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        /** non-native brahmins who embraced british beurocracy, who attempted to build a brahmin race? **/
        What are the examples of this ? I am NOT sure if Brahmins tried to build a Brahmin race. Undoubtably, people know that there are different castes within the Brahmin itself. IT is people like Ambedkar and Periyar who tried to view Brahmins, Dalits etc as a whole.

        /** will tell stories on how the brahmins lawyers ill-treated them/their parents , and how brahmin officers have oppressed them. **/
        Examples ?

        • senthil says:

          /** /** will tell stories on how the brahmins lawyers ill-treated them/their parents , and how brahmin officers have oppressed them. **/
          Examples ?
          **/

          In our area, there would be rivalry b/w neighbouring farmers based on the “Varappu”.. in tamil it is famously called “Varappu Thagararu”.. both of them on those days will go to the lawyers to settle their rivalry.. and it is there, they had this bad experience..

          Even recently, i had directly experienced the rude behaviour of a brahmin lawyer..

          • vyas says:

            Senthil – What are you trying to ultimately convey by writing this article especially. I’m afraid you are taking the discussion into a different direction by mentioning about rude Brahmins and all. I can show you tons of rude lawyers even today. This is human nature. The moment when you find out that someone is at your mercy you’ll start exhibiting a kind of bureaucracy. This is not unique to dubashi Brahmins alone, but equally applicable to other caste members too. Are our politicians not showing their bureaucracy towards innocent people?

            By the way I’m afraid you are going to be yet another victim of the DK sponsored Brahmino-phobia.

      • vyas says:

        Yes, we have to come out of this religious mindset very badly. The Europeans have harvested our minds to think that way. By the way I don’t understand what Shan is trying to prove by saying that Brahmins are racists.

        //Who did this? is it Dravidar Kalagam, or those non-native brahmins who embraced british beurocracy, who attempted to build a brahmin race?//

        Well this started with the likes of Max Muellers. The DK folks are not intelligent enough to come up with such ideologies. They are mere stooges of the European colonists.

        I think the root cause of the issue is with the mindset. The Brahmins were the most respected in the society once upon a time. They lived a segregated lifestyle with interference from nobody. The whole society including the King embraced such an isolation due to the nature of their job. But when the Brits destroyed our kingdoms, the Brahmins were forced to mingle physically with others in the society which they don’t like. Also they never had a chance to enjoy the same benefits that they used to get during our King’s rule. This frustrated them. When they accepted the govt jobs, they got back everything that they lost. This is probably why they continued their tenure with the govt jobs. For a Brahmin rendering his dharma is the utmost important thing in his life. In order to safeguard it, he’ll go to any extent. Even the nation is secondary to him. This is why they always befriend the king anywhere they go. Even in the case with the Brits, the same thing happened. He sees to it that there is no hindrance to rendering his dharma wherever he goes and befriending the govt official is the best way to accomplish it. By the way this is only a psychological analysis of a Brahmin’s mindset. I don’t know how far this is true.

        On your question our inter marrying within the Brahmin community, it has almost faded a while ago. We simply are not getting enough girls. The stupid DK folks do not know (or pretend?) that Brahmins follow strict untouchability even within their own communities. The Iyengars are the top most of all. They look down upon all iyers pretty badly. Vadama and Choliyas never inter-marry. Even today this is practiced in certain areas but is almost extinct now. There is one more sect called Vaathima Brahmins that I’ve heard about but haven’t been able to get much details on that. Whatever said and done, the next big disaster awaiting to happen is arranged inter-caste marriage in the Brahmin community. There is acute shortage of girls in the Brahmin community and most of the girls have become highly educated and do not prefer low end Brahmin boys. I’m also seeing a significant increase in love marriages amongst Brahmin communities which is kind of worrying me.

        • Surya Ramachandran says:

          /** Even the nation is secondary to him. This is why they always befriend the king anywhere they go. **/
          False, Brahmins were the most who participated in the freedom movement. It was the DK and Justice party who wanted British to continue. Bhartiyar was a Brahmin and so was Rajaji. They were are respected in their own community. This was unlike Kamaraj, who was criticized by the Nadars for aligning with Congress. Other genuine people who were against the British were the Thevars.

          • vyas says:

            You’ve completely misunderstood what I said. For true Brahmins, Shastras and Vedas are the ultimate thing in their life. When a Kshatriya turns away from his dharma, it is the Brahmins who correct them. The very concept of desam is an idea projected by our Shastras. This is why I said that for the Brahmins, the vedic dharma stand up first. By nature they’ll befriend the King without whom the order can’t be established. This is how/why they befriended the British too. But it took a while for them to understand their mistake. Pls note that when the Europeans first came to Madras, the local Brahmins didn’t even bother to meet them despite their requests. They called the them Malechaas and maintained a distance with them. The Brahmins’ friendship with British became intimate only after the demise of our kingdoms.

        • senthil says:

          /** False, Brahmins were the most who participated in the freedom movement **/

          IT is very much true.. the very identity of nationalism is forged by a section of brahmins who got english education and worked under british.. at the same time, a large number of brahmins, totally gave in to western elite life style, whose descendants now constitute the liberal section of our society.. (Look at the actress with sir name as “Chaturvedi” doing obscene roles in bollywood.. )

          That’s why i categorised these brahmins as Hindutva brahmins and dubashi brahmins..

          The Hindutva brahmins, is the one who built a religious perspective of our society, (either for appeasing british or to build a counter movement to christianity).. the intentions are good.. but the outcome had many negative effects on our society.. we have to analyse both..

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            /** the very identity of nationalism is forged by a section of brahmins who got english education and worked under british **/
            Had it NOT been for this identity, we would not have had nuclear weapons by now..

          • senthil says:

            @surya,

            /** Had it NOT been for this identity, we would not have had nuclear weapons by now.. **/

            We cannot narrow down such a complex issue like this..

            I am not against formation of national identity.. i am only questioning the basis on which the national identity is formed..

            The current idea of india is based on colonial history.. whereas, my idea of bharath is based on ancient history..

            These hindutva brahmins, had formed a social / National identity based on european concepts, aiming for a religious society, with common language, common culture, common festivals.. this formation of religious social concept (aka, Hindu religious society) has been so devastating on our original dharma..

            Since you are following my blog for long time, i hope, you would be able to understand what i am conveying…

            PS: I am not degrading or attacking any one here.. lets have a pragmatic analysis..

  9. Very interesting post. So your essential claim is that the caste tension between brahmins and lower castes in the Tamil region is actually an ethnic conflict with caste being implemented as a superficial cultural overlay? I wonder though– do the groups critical of your theory point to any incidents of mistreatment of sudras by Choliya Brahmins? If so, how do you respond to those cases? Thanks again for the knowledge you have given me.

    -Videshi

    • senthil says:

      /** I wonder though– do the groups critical of your theory point to any incidents of mistreatment of sudras by Choliya Brahmins
      **/

      There is not much problem b/w different jathis of same ethnicity.. there is cordial relations b/w choliya brahmins and choliya parayars.. because many of the choliya brahmins are still in their vaideeha professions..

  10. Surya Ramachandran says:

    /** These hindutva brahmins, had formed a social / National identity based on european concepts, aiming for a religious society, with common language, common culture, common festivals.. ***/

    False. Hindutva has nothing to do with common language.. IN fact it encourages the regional languages a lot. Hindutva has always recognized the diversity in culture, and has been for poeple to follow the culture they are born into. It is high time that you stop making false statemnets on Hindutva.

    All Hindutva says is that the Hindus should be united. It is upto different castes to decide if they want to inter marry or not. Hindutva is AMORAL when it comes to intercaste marriages.

    Caste is a liability, and you have to accept it, in the sense that it NEVER went against false ideology like Periyar ones. Caste is a reason why people never care if Hindu tax money is stolen and sent to the Muslims (are you going to admit it?). Imagine some anti-Islamic ideas spread in Islamic society, such people would have been butchered.

    It is time that you read Ambedkar seriously (he is the architect of the constitution).

    http://centreright.in/2012/04/bodhi-sattvas-hindutva-part-5/#.Ulg2WsbMPEc

    I have already pointed out annhiliation of castes. Have you read that. Untill you start countering it, you are going to get NO where. You always begin by telling that 100 years of literature has been taken over by anti caste brigade. If you and I want to counter it, you need to counter the Ambedkar’s works.

    My suggestion: Start a series of 5-10 posts on Critique of Ambedkar. Start from Annhiliation of castes.. The earlier you do that the better. Amedkar had tremendous hatred for Hindu gods like Rama, Krishna etc. May be you do not share the same views, so that would actually butress your case.

  11. Surya Ramachandran says:

    http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/web/section_6.html

    I am trying to find the answer to these ones.

    [1:] Caste does not result in economic efficiency. Caste cannot improve, and has not improved, the race. Caste has however done one thing. It has completely disorganized and demoralized the Hindus.

    [2:] The first and foremost thing that must be recognized is that Hindu Society is a myth. The name Hindu is itself a foreign name. It was given by the Mohammedans to the natives for the purpose of distinguishing themselves [from them]. It does not occur in any Sanskrit work prior to the Mohammedan invasion. They did not feel the necessity of a common name, because they had no conception of their having constituted a community. Hindu Society as such does not exist. It is only a collection of castes. Each caste is conscious of its existence. Its survival is the be-all and end-all of its existence. Castes do not even form a federation. A caste has no feeling that it is affiliated to other castes, except when there is a Hindu-Muslim riot. On all other occasions each caste endeavours to segregate itself and to distinguish itself from other castes.

    [3:] Each caste not only dines among itself and marries among itself, but each caste prescribes its own distinctive dress. What other explanation can there be of the innumerable styles of dress worn by the men and women of India, which so amuse the tourists? Indeed the ideal Hindu must be like a rat living in his own hole, refusing to have any contact with others. There is an utter lack among the Hindus of what the sociologists call “consciousness of kind.” There is no Hindu consciousness of kind. In every Hindu the consciousness that exists is the consciousness of his caste. That is the reason why the Hindus cannot be said to form a society or a nation.

    [4:] There are, however, many Indians whose patriotism does not permit them to admit that Indians are not a nation, that they are only an amorphous mass of people. They have insisted that underlying the apparent diversity there is a fundamental unity which marks the life of the Hindus, inasmuch as there is a similarity of those habits and customs, beliefs and thoughts, which obtain all over the continent of India. Similarity in habits and customs, beliefs and thoughts, there is. But one cannot accept the conclusion that therefore, the Hindus constitute a society. To do so is to misunderstand the essentials which go to make up a society. Men do not become a society by living in physical proximity, any more than a man ceases to be a member of his society by living so many miles away from other men.

    [5:] Secondly, similarity in habits and customs, beliefs and thoughts, is not enough to constitute men into society. Things may be passed physically from one to another like bricks. In the same way habits and customs, beliefs and thoughts of one group may be taken over by another group, and there may thus appear a similarity between the two. Culture spreads by diffusion, and that is why one finds similarity between various primitive tribes in the matter of their habits and customs, beliefs and thoughts, although they do not live in proximity. But no one could say that because there was this similarity, the primitive tribes constituted one society. This is because similarity in certain things is not enough to constitute a society.

    [6:] Men constitute a society because they have things which they possess in common. To have similar things is totally different from possessing things in common. And the only way by which men can come to possess things in common with one another is by being in communication with one another. This is merely another way of saying that Society continues to exist by communication—indeed, in communication. To make it concrete, it is not enough if men act in a way which agrees with the acts of others. Parallel activity, even if similar, is not sufficient to bind men into a society.

    [7:] This is proved by the fact that the festivals observed by the different castes amongst the Hindus are the same. Yet these parallel performances of similar festivals by the different castes have not bound them into one integral whole. For that purpose what is necessary is for a man to share and participate in a common activity, so that the same emotions are aroused in him that animate the others. Making the individual a sharer or partner in the associated activity, so that he feels its success as his success, its failure as his failure, is the real thing that binds men and makes a society of them. The Caste System prevents common activity; and by preventing common activity, it has prevented the Hindus from becoming a society with a unified life and a consciousness of its own being.

    • senthil says:

      @surya,

      I think, it might be deviating to discuss this issue.. we can discuss this in separate post..

      For your reading, i will give a short answer..

      point-2 is right..

      point-3 is partially right.. each jathi is distinct, but all jathis are united at the village level..

      point-4: this is a popular myth.. look at our country in terms of ancient bharatha varsham and 56 dhesams.. that’s our real nationhood, in our own way..

      point-5: What do one means by society? For the west, it is a homogenous entity.. we need not subscribe to their views..

      point-7: The integral whole they refers is a form of corporate setup and from a religious societal perspective..

      /** The Caste System prevents common activity; and by preventing common activity, it has prevented the Hindus from becoming a society with a unified life and a consciousness of its own being.
      **/

      Why should castes have common activity? every jathi had a particular occupation, which complements other jathi, and it is by this, there is a consciousness of ONE.. we need to look at it based on village level..and NOT based on religious society..

  12. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** I’m afraid you are taking the discussion into a different direction by mentioning about rude Brahmins and all. I can show you tons of rude lawyers even today. This is human nature. The moment when you find out that someone is at your mercy you’ll start exhibiting a kind of bureaucracy. This is not unique to dubashi Brahmins alone, but equally applicable to other caste members too. Are our politicians not showing their bureaucracy towards innocent people?

    By the way I’m afraid you are going to be yet another victim of the DK sponsored Brahmino-phobia.
    **/

    I agree with you.. but during the early colonial days, it is the brahmins who joined british beurocracy in large numbers, and became lawyers, when majority of non-brahmins communities were still in their traditional occupation..

    The rude behaviour by these brahmin lawyers had been one of the reason, why DK’s anti-brahmin propoganda spread easily..

    i am not bashing any one here.. just factual analysis of our history..

    • vyas says:

      //I agree with you.. but during the early colonial days, it is the brahmins who joined british beurocracy in large numbers, and became lawyers, when majority of non-brahmins communities were still in their traditional occupation..

      The rude behaviour by these brahmin lawyers had been one of the reason, why DK’s anti-brahmin propoganda spread easily..//

      Senthil – There was rude behavior by other upper caste communities too. In fact it was far far rude than that exhibited by the Brahmins. Also pls note that during the early colonial days, the people who went to court to settle disputed were very minimal. Most of them still went to local panchayats. for all their issues. A rude behavior by a few Brahmin lawyers was not earth shattering by the way. If the DK had started the Anti Mudaliar or Anti Chettiar movements too I’d have supported them, but why only Anti-Brahmin movement? As I understand this is a clear-cut targeted attack to completely finish Brahminism off. The likes of Caldwell portrayed the Brahmins as the ultimate authorities of our dharma and badly wanted to convert them but significantly failed. This inferiority complex led them to portray the Brahmins pretty badly. This venom was later passed on to us too, which was later politicized by the DK. This is exactly what made the DK folks to act against Brahmins. An intellect like you too should not fall trap into this false propaganda.

      //i am not bashing any one here.. just factual analysis of our history..//

      Agreed, but you understanding of history is biased which is what I’m trying to clarify.

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        Please stop entering in to defensive mode… this distracts us from understanding the core issue..

        /** As I understand this is a clear-cut targeted attack to completely finish Brahminism off.
        **/
        Yes.. thats what i am also saying.. the english education brahmins who joined beurocracy, became the fuel for those missionaries which they effectively used..

        Even though only few brahmins had the rude behaviour, those few wielded enormous power through out india.. Please think practically.. I had conveyed what the elders in my area had expressed.. its up to you to accept it or reject it..

        • Surya Ramachandran says:

          /** Even though only few brahmins had the rude behaviour, those few wielded enormous power through out india **/
          Thorought India there was NO anti Brahmin mentality. IT was only in TN. Even in Kerala where untouchablity was 1000 times more harsher there was NO anti-Brahmin mentatlity.

          • senthil says:

            Anti brahminism is NOT about untouchability.. its because, the TN brahmins occupied powerful positions, and followed untouchability from the position of command and authority..

        • vyas says:

          //. I had conveyed what the elders in my area had expressed.. its up to you to accept it or reject it..//

          Just because your elders had a bad experience doesn’t mean everyone was like that. There was ill-treatment by upper caste non-brahmins against the lower caste people once upon a time. This is one of the main reasons, why several pro-dalit movement was started. Will you agree to this if I say so? Why target Brahmins alone? I don’t understand why you never discuss the rude behavior of non-Brahmins in this discussion. There have been incidents where human mucus was poured into the mouth of a lower caste fellow. I don’t understand why you are so blind to such incidents.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            as i said, its up to you to accept the reality or not.. i can only speak about why the previous generations in my area & in my community fell in to propoganda of periyar.. i had moved away from seeing brahmins in general, and trying to understand the issues in more deeper way.. and one such finding was this article, where i differentiated b/w non-native brahmins and native brahmins..

            Most native brahmins are still in their vaideeham, and we are supporting them in all ways.. but you are generalising and sensationalising things, just to defend those dubashi brahmins who had joined the liberal and secular gangs ..

            pls note that I am striving here to break this brahmin generalisation by differentiating different segments .. Even among those english education brahmins, i had differentiated b/w those hindutva brahmins who want to revive dharma, and those liberall ones, who completely adopted western value system..

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            // I had conveyed what the elders in my area had expressed.. its up to you to accept it or reject it.//
            And did these people come forward to fight against the British say 50 years before periyar. From my understanding all people who fought, or started to fight against British are the English educated ones be is Gandhi, Netaji, Tilak, Bhagat Singh etc. Interestingly very few from TN.

  13. anon says:

    Senthil, would you read kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap6.htm if you haven’t already?
    Also is there a way to send you an email? I don’t want to bog down this page with a long comment.

  14. Surya Ramachandran says:

    /** What do one means by society? **/
    Ambedkar has answered this::
    Men constitute a society because they have things which they possess in common.
    For that purpose what is necessary is for a man to share and participate in a common activity, so that the same emotions are aroused in him that animate the others. Making the individual a sharer or partner in the associated activity, so that he feels its success as his success, its failure as his failure, is the real thing that binds men and makes a society of them. The Caste System prevents common activity; and by preventing common activity, it has prevented the Hindus from becoming a society with a unified life and a consciousness of its own being.


    Is there one aspiration which is common for all castes. For example, if it is clear that British is looting the country is it possible that all castes UNITE to fight British, in any ethnic group. Or similarly, in removing Congress and corruption, or caste haters like Periyar ?

    Your reply has always been removing the traditional setup and kings. STILL that does not prevent people from uniting. For example in the Muzzafarnagar riots, the Jats called Mahapanchayat. But love Jihad is a problem for all Hindu castes. I appreciate Jat organization. But other should also have a panchayat right ? And after and before this all the panchyat leaders should meet. Why is this missing ?

    • senthil says:

      Why should we accept ambedkar version of society?

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        So you say in your society people should have no common interests?

        • senthil says:

          First, pls answer why should we accept their version of society? Common interest is different from common facilities.. We need to understand our society on our own, without the ideological bias of the western thought process..

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            Leave common facility, he also talks of common activity.. If there is common interest, common activity is inevitable. Even if there is divsion of labour in taking part in common interests there has be mutual agreement between different castes, for which there has to be interaction between the castes. Correct me if I am wrong, but untouchability prevents this.

          • senthil says:

            /** Even if there is divsion of labour in taking part in common interests there has be mutual agreement between different castes, for which there has to be interaction between the castes. Correct me if I am wrong, but untouchability prevents this.
            **/

            This is one of the wrong assumption.. pls substantiate how does untouchability prevents this.. Untouchability is ONLY physical separation.. it does not prevent people from speaking to each other..

  15. Surya Ramachandran says:

    /* Vannniyars are tribal communities.. they are NOT part of varna system.. the present day claim made during british census.. */
    PMK claims Vanniya population is 2.5 Crore. Similarly Thevars are not part of Varna system ? Do Arundhatiyars, Sakkilyars and parayars come under varna system ?

    • senthil says:

      arunthathiyars and sakkiliars are both one and same.. they are part of the varna system.. In tamilnadu, majority of sakkiliars, are telugu people, who came when vijayanagara empire collapsed.. their ejamanars are the thottiya nayakkars..

      PMK claim is little bit exaggerated.. the vanniyars are majority in dharmapuri and surrounding districts.. thevars are majority in tanjore and southern region..

  16. Surya Ramachandran says:

    /** Anti brahminism is NOT about untouchability.. its because, the TN brahmins occupied powerful positions, and followed untouchability from the position of command and authority.. **/
    Just read any periyar opinion on what is anti-brahminim. It has the least to do with TN brahmins and powerful positions (in his opinions). It is these opinions that brought people in anti-Brahmin movement. It is already pointed out that the DK people liked the Dubashis more than the Vaidiha.

    In my opinion it is NOT unotouchbility from position of commannd or authority, but just incompetance among the non-brahmins that they could not take up govt jobs. This incompetence is accepatable, but it is NOT admitted. Instead reasons like Aryan invasion, centuries of oppression are given to justify this.

    • senthil says:

      /** In my opinion it is NOT unotouchbility from position of commannd or authority, but just incompetance among the non-brahmins that they could not take up govt jobs. This incompetence is accepatable, but it is NOT admitted. Instead reasons like Aryan invasion, centuries of oppression are given to justify this.
      **/

      After all these months of detailed discussion, you come up with such absurd comment.. did not expect this..

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        Common what is absurd here ? We have already told that Brahmins knew more English (just take the statistics), and therefore they were more competent to take up government jobs. If non Brahmins wanted reservation, they could have easily told that representation is less because of lesser English education, and asked for reservation. And I think it may be sensible. Shan gave even IQ distribution statistics assuming normal distribution with standard deviation assumption.

        • senthil says:

          Your comment is turning in to racial superiority..
          the issue we are discussing is NOT about capability to join government jobs, but the outcome of more brahmins joining british beurocracy..

          There is no doubt, that brahmins are the most intelligent, most sharp minded, most ethical, and most dedicative.. no other community can compete them.. that’s not the issue.. the question is for what purpose are those extraordinary capabilities used..

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            I have told you clearly that these capacities have been used for gaining freedom; and you yourself have admitted here. There is NO racial superiority here, stats show that Brahmins got more jobs (and again you have admitted it), and it is explainable through higher percentage of English learning. I am NOT against reservation, but I am against Brahmin blame for non-Brahmins who could not obtain government jobs. There is NO necessity of competition among communities before govt jobs, all castes complemented. Introduction of competition was by govt jobs. This could have easily been settled through reservation instead of Brahmin hatred.

            A couple of case of rudeness has nothing to do with Brahmin hatred. There have been disagreements between Brahmins and non-Brahmins since the 1890s, and the issue has been Aryan invasion since then..

            Periyar and folks ascribed it to Aryan invasion. In fact the very fact that these guys criticise Brahmins implies that Brahmins were Indians. A cheap Indian will only have the competence to bring down another Indian not an another foreigner. Thats why Periyar said that synonym of Islam is Tamil and wanted British rule to continue in India.

  17. senthil says:

    @surya,

    /** A couple of case of rudeness has nothing to do with Brahmin hatred. There have been disagreements between Brahmins and non-Brahmins since the 1890s, and the issue has been Aryan invasion since then..
    **/

    Its not couple of cases.. there is pattern.. most english educated brahmins, joining beurocracy, exhibited that elitist superiority complex.. they treated every other community as shudras.. You cannot undermine this.. i had spoken to elders across entire western tamilnadu, and got the same response.. When untouchability is practiced with powerful position, it had larger impact..

    That doesnt mean, people all rebelled against them.. the Dravidar Kalagam had used these incidents, to their fullest advantage..

    This aspect has been discussed repeatedly.. but you people are still defending those very dubashi brahmins who are still now damaging us.. why? are you compromising your values for blood relation?

    • Surya Ramachandran says:

      Could you please give details of a few of these Varappu incidents, on who Brahmins behaved badly.

      Could you also give DK literature which uses Varappu Thagauru to incite hatred against Brahmins, instead of Aryan Invasion or something similar.

  18. vedamgopal says:

    திரு.செந்தில் பிராமிணர்களின் குலம், கோத்திரம், புலம் பெயர்தல் போன்ற பலவற்றை ஆராய்ந்து அவர்கள் ஏன், எதற்கு, எப்படி, இப்படி என்றெல்லாம் பல விளக்கங்கள் அளித்து கட்டுரைகள் எமுதுகிறீர்கள். ஆனால் தாங்கள் சார்ந்துள்ள வெள்ளாளர்கள் பற்றியோ அல்லது மற்ற ஜாதி ஹிந்துகளது தமிழக பங்களிப்பை (நன்மைகள்-தீமைகள்) பற்றியோ தாங்கள் இதுவரை கட்டுரை எழுதாதது ஏன்? திராவிட கழகங்களின் பிராமிண விரோத மனப்பான்மைக்கும் உங்களின் மறைமுகமான பிராமிணர்களின் குறைகளை சுட்டிகாட்டும் கட்டுரைகளுக்கும் பெரிய வித்தியாசம் ஒன்றும் இல்லை.

    நான் சமீபத்தில் பிராமிணர்களைப் பற்றி படித்த புத்தகத்திலிருந்து சில வரிகள் உங்களது பார்வைக்கு வைக்கிறேன். இந்தமாதிரி புத்தகங்கள் தங்களுக்கு இது போன்று பல ஊகத்தின் அடிப்படையில் பிராமிணர்களை குறை சொல்லி கட்டுரைகள் எழுத உதவும் என்றும் நம்புகிறேன்.

    “The Brahmin in the Tamil country” by N.Subrahmanian (Ennes Publications – Madurai-625019) published in 1989 Rs.60/- The author cover from Ancient sangam period till to-day the positive and negative aspects of Brahmins presence in Tamilnadu. Like all the Indian Historian he also cites lot of reference from the colonial english authors .

    // By and large, the southern Brahmans were marked off from the northern fraternity as less orthodox as well as more orthodox. The Brahmins in the south had to live amidst an entirely different tribal society which held political power not subject to the supervisory authority of the Purhit; inbreeding became habitual and the need for protection urgent; the former count not be helped, the latter was provided willingly by the rulers of the land who allowed the Brahman to settle down in Brahmadeyas (Agraharams, Chathurvedimangalams) and in imperial Chola times the Brahmin administered the
    Sabhas of these villages as autonomous socio-political units. The pre-Vijayanagar polity of the Tamils was permissive of such autonomy while the imperialist policy of all the Governments from Vijayanagar downwards spelt the ruin of these semi-autonomous villages.//

    • senthil says:

      @vedamgopal,

      I am merely pointing out the cordial relationship b/w native brahmins and native vellalas, and it is the non-native brahmins, who went to government jobs in large numbers (as their patron native kings were no more).. the native brahmins are those who came along with all other communities when the dhesam were formed..

      So i had written about a formation of society in general, which covers all jathis.. its surprising that you did not read those things..

      and i did not write about brahmins in general like you are doing.. i am making a positive discriminative analysis of which brahmins allied with british colonial forces, and who stayed with native non-brahmin community..

      You have to come out of your hindutva ideological prison to understand these..

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – You are very clever. When you are not able to defend a person, you brand them as Hindutva. You are no different from those DK idiots who do the same when they are targeted. As Vedamgopal rightly asked, show me one article which you’ve written condemning the non-Brahmins who collided with the British. Show me one article where you’ve condemned the Non-Brahmins who, in the name of un-touchability literally enslaved certain class of people in the past. Had you done that I’d have accepted you as a neutral guy. You conveniently ignored the crimes committed by non-Brahmins. Again, don’t twist the argument on me by branding me as pro-Brahmin. You should write some articles about non-Brahmin atrocities at least to prove that you are not anti-Brahmin.

        • senthil says:

          @vyas,

          1. When i DONT see Brahmins as a single entity, why do you force a Brahmin-Non-Brahmin segregation, and see all Non-Brahmins as one group?

          2. I had abused Periyar so many times in my article.. i called him “Anti-Social Rascal”.. he is a Non-Brahmin.. Similarly, i had written against ambedkar, as a british stooge, and has even pointed out how he is more casteists than others.. i virtually hated gandhi.. i wrote against, all those known stooges, whether brahmin or non-brahmin.. why these are NOT visible to you? I wrote against Isha Jaggi, who is also a non-brahmin.. i wrote against Vethathri, who is also a non-brahmin..

          3. Pls give me the list of non-brahmin dubashis, whom i supported or defended, like you people defend the dubashi brahmins ?

          4. Why do you people get offended, when my attack is ON those westernised brahmins, and i had clearly segregated and supported the hindutva brahmins from them ???

          • vyas says:

            //1. When i DONT see Brahmins as a single entity, why do you force a Brahmin-Non-Brahmin segregation, and see all Non-Brahmins as one group?//

            I’m forced to do so because you paint a picture as if the Brahmins were the sole cause of the decay of our civilization thereby singling them out. You fail to understand that our society started to decay even during islamic rule and only worsened during the British rule. The collapse during the British rule is only an aftermath of the slow decay during the Islamic rule. I may be a dubashi Brahmin but I hail from this community and have a moral responsibility to defend it when someone attacks it.

            //I had abused Periyar so many times in my article.. i called him “Anti-Social Rascal”.. he is a Non-Brahmin.. Similarly, i had written against ambedkar, as a british stooge, and has even pointed out how he is more casteists than others.. i virtually hated gandhi.. i wrote against, all those known stooges, whether brahmin or non-brahmin.. why these are NOT visible to you? I wrote against Isha Jaggi, who is also a non-brahmin.. i wrote against Vethathri, who is also a non-brahmin.. //

            I never denied this. But despite all such bashing against them you sometimes sound as if you are in support of them. For eg., why haven’t you taken any efforts in documenting the atrocities committed by non-Brahmins against other non-Brahmins? Again here I’m using the word non-Brahmin here not to create a segregation but just to explain my viewpoint.

            //Pls give me the list of non-brahmin dubashis, whom i supported or defended, like you people defend the dubashi brahmins ? //

            You are completely trivializing the role of dubashi Brahmins and I condemn you on that. They are sort of necessary evils. They are playing a role which simply cannot be ignored. While there is no second opinion about the fact that they have indeed caused a lot of damage to the society, at the same time you fail to mention the damage caused by the vaishyas and Shudras too. This is why people like me and Vedamgopal condemn you. You are putting the entire blame on Brahmins as a community without properly analyzing the chain of events that led to the decay of our society. It’s like looking for some scape goat to put the blame on. Also you never bother about the issue of conversion. The entire fishermen community is now christian. There are certain districts and even entire states in our country which has been completely converted. For you, a Brahmin taking up a govt job is a serious issue but an entire community converting to Christianity is not even worth discussing at all. Atleast a dubashi Brahmin may one day return to his Brahmana dharma, but a Christian/Mulsim, once converted is a finished chapter. They are never allowed to go back to their dharma. After a generation or two, they even completely forget about this conversion and start vouching for their new religion. I’ve asked you several times in the past why you were not able to stop your own relative from being converted but I never heard an answer from you on that.

            //Why do you people get offended, when my attack is ON those westernised brahmins, and i had clearly segregated and supported the hindutva brahmins from them ???//

            My only question is why only westernized Brahmins? I see Hindutva as a political response to the highly political Abrahamic religions. It may have some qualities of Abrahamism but it is something that’s required for survival of the sons of this soil in a highly westernized vote bank political system. It was a movement started in response to defend identity hijacking efforts by outsiders.

            //You & others are turning every issues i raise in to Brahmin – Non-Brahmin racial duality..//

            Only because you single out the Brahmins every now and then. By the way I never ever portrayed it as racial identity.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            Kanchi periyava has said the same thing that Brahmins are the reason for collapse of dharma.. what’s your answer for that?

            You are disgracing yourself by justifying those dubashi brahmins as necessary evils.. those brahmins who fought for freedom is NOT westernised one, but the Hindutva brahmins who also got english education.. i have clearly categorised it.. There is NO reason for you to be emotional, unless if my article is hurting you personally.. (in that case, i may chose to say sorry to you)..

            The reason why we focus on brahmins is because, they are the intellectual front of our society, and they had played an important role..

            To ask that i should banish all other communities, to prove my neutrality is silly.. pls dont be emotional.. pls focus on the issues we are discussing.. our objective is NOT to accuse anyone, but to understand our issues through our own experience.. and to find a solution..

          • vyas says:

            //Kanchi periyava has said the same thing that Brahmins are the reason for collapse of dharma.. what’s your answer for that?//

            Yes, periyava did say that. I myself have quoted this statement of his several times in this forum in the past. But you must understand that he never made them a scape goat like what you people are doing.

            //You are disgracing yourself by justifying those dubashi brahmins as necessary evils.. those brahmins who fought for freedom is NOT westernised one, but the Hindutva brahmins who also got english education.. i have clearly categorised it.. There is NO reason for you to be emotional, unless if my article is hurting you personally.. (in that case, i may chose to say sorry to you)..//

            I’m not emotional and I for sure not expecting any apology. I only want you to bring the true picture out. By scape goating the Brahmins you are neglecting a lot of details which is what I’m trying to point out.

            //To ask that i should banish all other communities, to prove my neutrality is silly//

            I expected neutrality only from the context perspective. Not just because I want you to be neutral. If Brahmins were the one and only group solely responsible for the decay of our society, then I’m with you. Go ahead and bash them however you want to. The real fact is that it’s not the case which is what I want you to analyze.

            // our objective is NOT to accuse anyone, but to understand our issues through our own experience.. and to find a solution..//

            Yes, this is what I want from you too. I’m surprised you want to find a solution. Previously whenever I ask you about solutions, you kept saying that “I’m not here to offer any solution. I just want gather more information”. Are you now at a point where you think you have in place all the information about our society?

        • senthil says:

          @vyas,

          I always focus on the issue and NOT on projecting myself.. i dont have any necessity to prove myself as neutral, because that would be silly.. You & others are turning every issues i raise in to Brahmin – Non-Brahmin racial duality..

          When we discuss about our temples, vedas, naturally we have to focus on brahmins.. when we talk about agriculture, we have to focus on those vellalas (C. Subramaniyam ) who had sold our entire agriculture to foreigners..

          and when we talk about policy decisions, we have to always look at those power centers and decision authority..

          pls understand this reality.. Pls dont be like those sickulars, for whom neutrality means attacking all religions..

          • anon says:

            (This is actually a response to Vyas, but the reply link didn’t appear for his post.)

            Directed Vyas who told Senthil:”You are putting the entire blame on Brahmins as a community without properly analyzing the chain of events that led to the decay of our society.”

            Actually, the Kanchi Paramacharya put the entire blame on Brahmins for the death of their community and for the consequent the decay of all Hindu society.

  19. anon says:

    Senthil,

    While it is correct that there are various Tamizh brahmana communities, and none of these generally intermarried (and all of whom are even less likely to intermarry with brahmanas from some distant part of the country), the dynamics are more complex than the simple pecking order implied by your Choliya Brahmana contact. It is true for instance that Iyengars will not touch food or water in the house of Iyers, whereas the latter are expected to be ready to partake in meals prepared by the former. This particular difference presumably started because of a stricter diet that the Vaishanava variant had to adhere to.

    I think perhaps that the phenomenon your Choliya brahmana contact provided you with can be explained more simply. If the vadamas were indeed imported from a relative direction to perform yagnyas for the king, and choliya brahmanas took care of the (far more serious, from a Hindu point-of-view) rites related to death, then this implies appointed specialisation. At some point in time, it must have been set up that there be not much overlap between their functions, considering that in general brahmanas can theoretically be trained to perform all Vedic rites (death rituals or other) so there is nothing to conceptually absolutely distinguish them in a “value to the king or society” sense. It makes me think that the Hindu kings must themselves have de-lineated the assigned functions therefore, perhaps to ensure no competition for positions springs up among these mutually-endogamous communities and that there be no lack of brahmanas to do the more fundamental functions, as opposed to the specific rituals that relate mainly to rulership.

    A type of “ritual pollution” could well have come into play here. The death rituals performed by brahmanas are very involved. I know that the family of anyone deceased is avoided by the general Hindu community during the ritual period (there are all kinds of rules concerning this). It may be that during the process, the brahmanas performing the rites are also not to be in contact with anyone outside? In any case something that I do know for a fact from my own recent ancestors who lived in a village is that when brahmanas perform death rituals for other brahmanas, the former are specifically selected to be brahmanas who are unknown to the village and will never be seen again thereafter. These are strangers specifically sought out and invited for the death rituals. From what I remember being told many years back, during the death rituals/period, Yama Bhagavan himself is invoked in the stranger brahmanas. So it is Yama who is offered food and eats it when the stranger brahmanas eat their meals. After which “Yama” goes his way, and the stranger brahmanas go back to their villages. There is never again any contact between the two groups, as far as I understood.

    So if it was the case in TN that some brahmanas ended up having to specialise or focus on death rituals while others had to focus on other rituals owing to circumstances, it might well be related to ritual pollution concerns: that those brahmanas who were expected to be ready to perform other types of Vedic rituals had to keep away from the kind of brahmanas engaged specifically in death rites, which are taken very seriously. Also, there are supposed to be stipulations on ritual purity attached to Vedic rites even in general, as well as for different Vedic rites. If this need for ritual purity for both classes of rituals descended into some form of snobbish untouchability yet again, it sounds like what happened to principles of ritual pollution in all other cases.

    Having said that, I think matters may not be as simple as concluding that bigotry or treachery (by abandoning their duties to the Vedas and hence Hindu society) must, by a process of elimination, largely be of the Vadama kind. Further, as you stated, there are bad people of Hindu ancestry emanating from all community backgrounds, and not just brahmanas either. Just as there are traitors born in all backgrounds (though I agree a lot of damage is done by those traitors who had brahmana ancestry). The converse is also true: there are loyal Hindus of all communities who do right by Hindu society. It is unfair to all those who never betrayed the Hindus to get lumped in with the traitors merely owing to common background, and be criticised alongside of them as forming a uniform “class”. Especially since people who went rogue don’t belong to their community anymore in the first place, and they certainly don’t represent its essentials, even if they were to ever become the majority (because their act of going rogue en-masse would have killed that community’s essentials). The distinction must be made between those who remained steadfast in their duties while remaining conscientious to everyone (and this behaviour was not absent in Vadamas either), and who thus always embodied the ideals laid out for them, and all those who diverged from it.

    I can however follow along with the reasoning that if the Vadama brahmanas had their assigned villages or agraharas impounded by the modern government and/or if their duties were no longer regulated and supported by Hindu kings, so that consequently their way of life was brought to an end, that such brahmanas might have been the more ready to start looking for “other work” and to abandon their actual duty. It doesn’t entirely condone it, since the meaning of duty is that you can’t abandon it no matter what, but it could explain the phenomenon. But whether these communities of brahmanas would “naturally” be more inclined to be casteist in general or not owing to historical reasons such as appointed position is not something that immediately follows. It does not even follow that many brahmana communities know of other brahmana communities to make any distinction beyond that they’re different and don’t intermarry. I am not aware that there is a “hierarchy” among them that is experienced (as a reality) by all those involved.

    Further, if all brahmanas in agraharas theoretically did not have much contact with the rest of Hindu society why anticipate that they are the ones who would most have exhibited standoffishness owing to ritual purity concerns from other Hindus? It can just as reasonably be argued that those brahmanas that are in constant contact with the rest of Hindu community would have to be conscious more often of maintaining ritual purity, for the very reason that they are dealing with all other Hindus more regularly while still having to keep up ritual purity. This is just an argument for the converse case, I am not hereby implying that Choliya or other brahmanas who are involved with Hindu society must therefore be more directly experienced as stand-offish by other Hindus.

    This was a long comment because it was originally intended as an email, but I’ve entered it here anyway.

    • senthil says:

      We are just discussing the possible reason for a specific historic happening.. no need to blame or accuse any one.. lets NOT brand any one as traitor.. lets try to understand the issue..

      My main objective of this article is to break the “Brahmin generalisation”, and focus on the positive relation b/w the native brahmins and native non-brahmin communities, which exists till now.. this will help us in breaking the propoganda that the vested interests are using..

      Please throw away that “Hindu Society” logic.. this kind of religious societal grouping is preventing us from understanding our social issues properly.. We should stop grouping everything in the zeal of unity..

  20. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** Yes, periyava did say that. I myself have quoted this statement of his several times in this forum in the past. But you must understand that he never made them a scape goat like what you people are doing.
    **/

    This is baseless allegation.. please show where i made brahmins as scapegoat..

    I am repeatedly saying that this article was to break the generalised anti-brahmin hatred, by dwelling in to different brahming groups and their historic significance.. I am only targetting those liberal westernised brahmins alone, who are in the enemy camp even today.. what is the issue for you?

    /** By scape goating the Brahmins you are neglecting a lot of details which is what I’m trying to point out.

    If Brahmins were the one and only group solely responsible for the decay of our society, then I’m with you.
    **/

    1. Till 1990s, more than 80% of india was rural.. most farmers were in their traditional occupation.. i myself had grown in that traditional atmosphere, and most of my community people were in farming.. the traditions and rituals were practiced till 2000..
    So how can you accuse the majority of the people, when they were in the traditional occupation?

    2. If you still feel, other communities also responsible, Pls list down how they caused our social destruction..

    • Surya Ramachandran says:

      /** If you still feel, other communities also responsible, Pls list down how they caused our social destruction.. **/
      Sure, as you always say. A society is NOT just a group of people, it is an organization. In democracy people vote for a particular organization. You always blame the government, but it is the 80% of people who voted for DK, congress and communists. Please list down the communities who voted for them, you will get your answer..

    • vyas says:

      //So how can you accuse the majority of the people, when they were in the traditional occupation?//

      This is a myth you continue to propagate. A lot of non-Brahmins did aspire for govt jobs and did get through it with the help of the DK in the later periods. In fact the slow entry of non-Brahmins into these jobs was only because their educational background was poor and they were not as bright as the Brahmins in English education. You must understand that in those days jobs were given either on merit or recommendation basis. These people did not have either. It is the non-Brahmin vote that brought the DK in power as Surya pointed out. With the advent of liberalization a lot of jobs were created and these people flocked to different jobs. Had liberalization came here in the 50’s instead of the 90’s, these people would have long left their traditional jobs. So please don’t propagate this myth again.

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        You conveniently evading the point that DK itself gained momentum, ONLY bcoz of overwhelming Brahmin presence in british beurocracy and overwhelming brahmin prsence in judiciary.. the later day reservations and many other things are all reactions to this..

        And why did DK got support from common people.. because everywhere in remote villages, it is the brahmins who were lawyers and tahsildars..

        My focus today is to break the anti-brahmin ideology, by breaking the brahmin generalisation and splitting them based on history,tradition and cultural ethos..

        Btw you did not answer my question yet.. i am targeting ONLY those westernised brahmins by isolating them from vaideeha and hindutva brahmins.. why are you defending them?

        • vyas says:

          //You conveniently evading the point that DK itself gained momentum, ONLY bcoz of overwhelming Brahmin presence in british beurocracy and overwhelming brahmin prsence in judiciary.. the later day reservations and many other things are all reactions to this..//

          Senthil – Answer my question first. How could the DK come to power and sustain it for so long in this state? Who supported and voted for them?

          //And why did DK got support from common people.. because everywhere in remote villages, it is the brahmins who were lawyers and tahsildars..//

          So what? What’s their problem if the Brahmins were lawyers? According to you the non-Brahmins were very traditional and oriented towards parampara profession right? Why should they bother if all lawyers were Brahmins? This itself disproves your claim that the non-Brahmins were not interested in govt jobs. This indeed clearly shows that the non-Brahmins too were very eager to take those professions and the only factor that was preventing them from doing so was English education. Since the DK folks promised to give that for all they voted for them.

          //Btw you did not answer my question yet.. i am targeting ONLY those westernised brahmins by isolating them from vaideeha and hindutva brahmins.. why are you defending them?//

          When did I defend them? I’m only saying that they are needed for certain tasks in a vote bank political environment. If not for some of them, the situation of the Vaideeha Brahmins and the traditional community as a whole would been pathetic. I agree that those dubashi Brahmins are dead against jaathi. But they do acknowledge and support it at a personal level. For eg. Cho and Su.Swamy both perform all Brahmanic rituals until this very moment. Today, the situation for upholding jaathi is not appropriate. The moment you utter the word Jaathi, the whole community turns against you. In a centrally governed vote bank political system, you are forced to be a leader of appeasement for all sections of a society and this is what these people are trying to do.

          • senthil says:

            /** So what? What’s their problem if the Brahmins were lawyers? According to you the non-Brahmins were very traditional and oriented towards parampara profession right? Why should they bother if all lawyers were Brahmins?
            **/

            I am surprised, you are asking this silly question.. brahmin becoming lawyers is a very powerful authoratarian position.. every other non-brahmin community has to engage a brahmin lawyers if they want to file a court case.. and how did those brahmin lawyers treated them? When these brahmin lawyers followed untouchability from the powerful position, it made a big impact on non-brahmins.. same with other beurocrats, like tahsildars, etc..

            /** This itself disproves your claim that the non-Brahmins were not interested in govt jobs. This indeed clearly shows that the non-Brahmins too were very eager to take those professions and the only factor that was preventing them from doing so was English education. **/

            When you have stooped to such low level to defend those dubashi brahmins, there is not much use in debating with you.. The britishers created english education as primary requirement for their colonial beurocracy, and you are ridiculing the non-brahmins for NOT able to pursue english and compete with brahmins… and you are proud of this colonial education and colonial beurocracy, which your Brahmins are the king to excel in.. Nothing more to say..

          • vyas says:

            //I am surprised, you are asking this silly question.. brahmin becoming lawyers is a very powerful authoratarian position.. every other non-brahmin community has to engage a brahmin lawyers if they want to file a court case.. and how did those brahmin lawyers treated them? When these brahmin lawyers followed untouchability from the powerful position, it made a big impact on non-brahmins.. same with other beurocrats, like tahsildars, etc..//

            Senthil – My questions were in direct response to your statements. If my questions are silly so your statements are. First give me a statistic of how many cases went to court in those days and then we’ll discuss what impact these Brahmin lawyers had on the non-Brahmins. I’m surprised you are suddenly talking about treatment right now. The Brahmins never changed their behavior. Though they changed profession, the mental acharic posture remained the same, which is the direct result of their behavior with the non-Brahmins, but suddenly you start to feel the heat of oppression. You are starting to show your real face now.

            //When you have stooped to such low level to defend those dubashi brahmins, there is not much use in debating with you..//

            Senthil – You are twisting my argument. I’m not defending anyone here. You are trying to put the entire blame on the Brahmin community for all the decay that happened in the past, which is exactly what I’m condemning. I don’t know how many more times I’m going to repeat this statement in this forum.

            //The britishers created english education as primary requirement for their colonial beurocracy, and you are ridiculing the non-brahmins for NOT able to pursue english and compete with brahmins… and you are proud of this colonial education and colonial beurocracy, which your Brahmins are the king to excel in.. Nothing more to say..//

            Utter nonsense. Who said so? Pls don’t read between the lines. I only ridiculed your statement when you said that non-Brahmins were not interested in pursuing English education. Pls don’t read between the lines. A substantial amount of non-Brahmins were equally interested in getting govt jobs like that of the dubashi Brahmins. The only thing that was acting as a hindrance for them was English education. Once they had the opportunity for pursuing the same, they were no different than the dubashi Brahmins.

            Finally you still haven’t answered my question on how DK groups could sustain power for so long in this state.

        • senthil says:

          /** If not for some of them, the situation of the Vaideeha Brahmins and the traditional community as a whole would been pathetic
          **/
          Pls substantiate with certain examples.. my point is that It is because of them, the situation of vaideeha brahmins were pathetic..

          • vyas says:

            Several incidents can be quoted. One of the recent incidents being the chidambaram dikshithar case. It was dubashi Brahmins like Su.Swamy who helped nail down that case. Till this very moment not a single non-Brahmin group has come forward to raise voice against all-caste archakas. I’ve pointed out several times that your own vellalas like Easwaran are staunchly supporting non-Brahmin vedic pundits.

          • senthil says:

            /** It was dubashi Brahmins like Su.Swamy who helped nail down that case **/

            Su.Swamy is english educated.. but is he westernised and does he follow western life style? i have already mentioned that those english educated brahmins, who realise our dharma and wants it back, can be categorised as Hindutva brahmins, and should be differentiated from those who totally follow western life style and abuse our culture..

            My target is NOT hindutva brahmins.. so your example is NOT valid here..

            /** Till this very moment not a single non-Brahmin group has come forward to raise voice against all-caste archakas. I’ve pointed out several times that your own vellalas like Easwaran are staunchly supporting non-Brahmin vedic pundits.
            **/

            This is a classical example how your perspectives are wrong.. it is NOT eeswaran, but the Perur Santhalinga Adigalar, who is behind this.. he is also a non-brahmin vellalal, and has hijacked our community based on caste bias.. and he is supported by the foolish hindutva organisations, just because he wears saffron robe.. We had fought with many rss people, against entertaining such crooks.. but they dont listen..

            I had personally & successfully convinced few temple dharmakarthas NOT to call this fellow..

            So pls understand the situation at ground level.. eeswaran are only arrows.. there is no use in targetting him..
            target the shooter (in this case, the perur and the DK group which controls it).. and look out who is pulling strings behind ..

          • vyas says:

            //Su.Swamy is english educated.. but is he westernised and does he follow western life style? i have already mentioned that those english educated brahmins, who realise our dharma and wants it back, can be categorised as Hindutva brahmins, and should be differentiated from those who totally follow western life style and abuse our culture..//

            I don’t understand what metrics you use to categorize Su,Swamy as Hindutva Brahmin. He is staunch opposer of jaathi. He doesn’t believe in jaathi by birth. He has married a parsi and his son-in-law is a muslim. His aim is to create a Hindu vote Bank and show the power of Hindus over muslims/christians. How do you contrast him with that of a westernized Brahmin?

          • senthil says:

            /** I don’t understand what metrics you use to categorize Su,Swamy as Hindutva Brahmin. He is staunch opposer of jaathi. He doesn’t believe in jaathi by birth. He has married a parsi and his son-in-law is a muslim. His aim is to create a Hindu vote Bank and show the power of Hindus over muslims/christians. How do you contrast him with that of a westernized Brahmin?
            **/

            NOT supporting jathi is not a criteria for my categorization.. because most hindutva dreamers are against jathi.. Su.Swamy is just one of them..

            It is the sense of dharma, faith in god and faith in our civilization, that are major criteria for differentiating..

            From my past experience, the below are the major worldview of westernised brahmins (& westernised non-brahmins too) ..

            1. Westernised people say india was backward, barbaric and illiterate for thousands of years, and it is britishers who brought civilization.
            2. They strongly believe in Aryan Invasion Theory.
            3. Brahmins were the oppressors.
            4. Strong belief in english language..
            5. Strong sense of western science, and anything that western science doesnt recognise is superstition.
            6. Typical Urban Elitism..
            7. No Belief in Vedas.. or distorted belief of vedas as aryan religion..
            8. India is the land of invaders..

            Hope you will agree that Su. Swamy did not believe in any of the above..

            Few years before I had intense & heated discussion in tamilbrahmins.com website and faced such totally westernised brahmins there (also hindutva brahmins there supported me) .. It was very challenging to counter them, NOT because of their argument, but because of their parroting of repeated allegations.. at that time i did not have the full understanding as i have now ..

          • vyas says:

            //NOT supporting jathi is not a criteria for my categorization.. because most hindutva dreamers are against jathi.. Su.Swamy is just one of them..//

            How would you categorize me then? I support all your above points plus Jaathi, but I’m still not a Vaideeha Brahmin.

            //1. Westernised people say india was backward, barbaric and illiterate for thousands of years, and it is britishers who brought civilization.
            2. They strongly believe in Aryan Invasion Theory.
            3. Brahmins were the oppressors.
            4. Strong belief in english language..
            5. Strong sense of western science, and anything that western science doesnt recognise is superstition.
            6. Typical Urban Elitism..
            7. No Belief in Vedas.. or distorted belief of vedas as aryan religion..
            8. India is the land of invaders.. //

            I don’t think Su.Swamy supports no. 6. Moreover a person who supports the above points is unfit to be called as a Brahmin in any form. Even the worst Brahmins believe in Vedas and glorified it. Do you mean to say the dubashi westernized Brahmins during the British period were anti-Vedic?
            About the Aryan Invasion stuff, the whole world was made to believe it once upon a time. That was because of hijacking of education by the Europeans. Even you and me believed it when we were in schools/colleges. Why blame only the westernized Brahmins for the same?

            //Few years before I had intense & heated discussion in tamilbrahmins.com//

            Some crooks in Tamilbrahmins.com do not represent the Brahmin community. First ask those Brahmins if they do their trikaala sandhya vandhanam or not. You are quoting some exceptions and trying to generalize it.

  21. vedamgopal says:

    Mr.Senthil’s first point is that that the native Brahmin were accomodatie with other native non-Brahmin only when fresh wave of vadama Brahmin entered Tamilnadu they were not accomodative with others like native Brahmin. Second point is that these vadama Brahmin always prefers rich rituals jobs and dont engage themself for job like death ceremoney & death aniversary ceremoney. Third point is that part of these vadamas only join with British and became dubash.

    In my earlier comment I gave reference that northen Brahmin who were allowed by the ruler to setle down in Brahmadeyas (Agraharams, Chathurvedimangalams) and in imperial Chola times these Brahmin administered the
    Sabhas of these villages as autonomous socio-political units. The pre-Vijayanagar polity of the Tamils was permissive of such autonomy while the imperialist policy of all the Governments from Vijayanagar downwards spelt the ruin of these semi-autonomous villages. Hence the question of blaming the later Brahmin not co-operating with the local is not true. Also it appears inbetween rulers and Brahmin the median force like cheftans (particularly vellalars- like Thiru.Aranganatha Mudalior – creating pallayams during Vijayanagar rule and damaged the village sabhas ?). Actual facts to be analyzed further !! Regarding point two in my house for both marrige or death ceremoney the same phrohit will come and do the rituals. Regarding third point also most of the Dubash Brahmins are Telugu Brahmins and here also your charge is not 100% true.

    • senthil says:

      the vadama brahmins received brahmadeyas and agraharas from kings.. but that did not make them part of the society. their life is NOT bound to that of other non-brahmin jathis… that’s my point.. you need to understand the commune structure to understand this..

      the vijayanagara kings revived many brahmadeyams and devadeyams, and issues fresh pattayams (copper plate inscriptions) for many of the temples.. many mutts were revived by them.. the palayams were mostly given to those traditional chiefs..

      No kings ever took the rights of those native people.. it is the colonial systems, which later took away these rights..

  22. poovannan73 says:

    Brahmins never did purohit duties whether its marriage or death for sudras and panchamas who are are the majority till recent past and we have pages written and discussed on how the local one who interacted with others was more accomodative and not seen with hatred
    Sudras like shivaji who captured power had to get brahmins from farway places as the brahmins of that area refused him ksatriya status.
    balgangadhar tilak who said that sudras should not aspire for politics or education faced protests for that in the 1920s much before DK and jyothibhai pule has written volumes against brahmin dominance in the 19th century
    The beleif in god made people fail in their attempts to show the true picture of brahmin arrogance and DK scored here by targetting gods and superstitions.
    Very few community except brahmins share the same gothra inspite of they being from gujarat or sind or lahore or kolkata or kanyakumari and creating a indigenous and migratory group within them has little merit.

    • Surya Ramachandran says:

      /** Sudras like shivaji who captured power had to get brahmins from farway places as the brahmins of that area refused him ksatriya status. **/
      This has been answered a 1000 times right by senthil right . Can you tell the answer please.

      Give me Bal Gangadhar Tilak quote.

      • poovannan says:

        http://ambedkar.org/jamanadas/TilakGandhi.htm

        1915 – Tilak opposed the Age of Consent Bill, brought in by Shastri, to raise the minimum Age for marriage.
        1916 April 28 – Established “Home Rule League” at Belgaon
        1916 December – Lukhnow Congress – Recognized Muslim Demands of Separate Electorates for Muslims.
        1918 – He opposed, a Bill by Vithalbhai Patel, to legalize the inter-caste marriages. He described such marriages as “hindu-hindu che sankar karak vivah”. He declared the Bill to be against Hindu religion and said that the progeny of such marriages may inherit the property of father only and not of others. A Brahmin looses his brahmin-hood, if he marries a shudra woman, he opined.
        1918 – Trip to England to file suit of defamation against Sir Valentine Chirol, who had held Tilak’s writings and work responsible for violence in India and called him “Father of Indian Unrest”. Tilak lost the case in Feb. 1919 and Returned back to Bombay in Nov. 1919
        1919 December – Amrutsar Congress
        1920 Feb. – March – His meetings were disrupted in Sangali, Pune and Bombay by non-Brahmins because of his speech at Athani saying non-Brahmins had no business to take education or to take part in politics.

  23. Surya Ramachandran says:

    /** This is one of the wrong assumption.. pls substantiate how does untouchability prevents this.. Untouchability is ONLY physical separation.. it does not prevent people from speaking to each other.. **/
    Of course there is. The Dalits have to maintain distance from other people. They had to maintain 96 feet (from the link I gave previously) wrt to the Namboodris. How would one speak at such distance.

    Look at this one:

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/became-buddhist-for-haircut-shave…-mental-untouchability-persists/1185035/1

    • senthil says:

      1. This is specific ONLY to kerala.. NOT universal.. the hygiene followed by namboodris and their role in temples require that they keep away from other communities.. what is wrong in certain people group beeing asked to keep away? Kerala is the land of parasuram and belonged to namboodris..

      2. Those communities who are asked to keep away are tribal people and NOT part of any varna dharma.. ie, they are NOT shudras.. if you want how those people lived on those days, pls refer the “Castes and Tribes of Southern India” by edgar thurston..

      3. Today when a chief minister arrives, the police cordon off and keep away people at certain distance.. why dont you see it as another oppression? The namboodries had certain roles in the rajyam..

      4. as i ask often, untouchability has nothing to do with oppression.. every people group had their own freedom, unlike the western capitalistic system where everyone is controlled by laws (whether government or corporate laws)..

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        1. This is not just namboodris, Ezhwas should maintain distance of 12 feet from Nairs. Parayars should maintain distance of 48 feet from Nadars.

        2. I am OK with asking people to keep away, but my point is this results in preventing people from speaking with each other.

        3. CM example is only partially correct. Here is a CM looses life a key person is lost for the state. But in this case every lower caste should maintain X distance from every higher caste.

        • vyas says:

          Surya – The main thing to be noticed here is as Senthil pointed out, untouchability was *not* at all practiced to exhibit any kind of oppressive behavior. Our culture gives extreme importance to paramparya and that takes precedence over everything else just like security in modern times. Every jaathi has specific dharma to be observed. Certain jaathis have very strict dharmic responsibilities that requires extreme penance which needs to be followed. Some stuff requires one to not even see anyone so that the mind is not diluted. They show such behavior against their own family members. I used to remember in my childhood days my grandmother used to follow extreme penance while doing Friday poojas. If her very own grand children touch them by accident, she’d immediately go and take bath. Even today most of the bhakthas who go to Sabarimala do not even see their spouses during 3 days forget about not touching them. My brother practices this very strictly even today. During those 3 days either he won’t come home or he’d send his wife to some relative’s place. Since she is your own family member you know the situation and take appropriate action. How can you find out such intricate things with your neighbors? It’s better to brand them all as untouchables during such times right? This is exactly what our ancestors did.

          By justifying the above I’m not trying to deny the atrocities caused in the name of untouchability. Some people did take undue advantage of it in the past which cannot be denied. But you must understand one thing from a psychological perspective. Our people who for ages lived in a segregated manner but together in a single village were forced to change their lifestyle and live together in a single street. The resulting atrocities should be seen from this perspective only. It’s like forcing a person who has always traveled alone in an A/C car to travel in a crowded bus. Untouchability as an issue is a matter of lack of education. That’s all. Untouchability is practiced by almost every human at various times. We are just not practicing it consciously. This is how we did it in the past too. In the past, a non-Brahmin would voluntarily move away from a Brahmin’s path because he/she had the right education and conduct to understand and demonstrate that. Today we’ve lost that in the name of uniformity. In my opinion the demise of our kingdoms was the probably the root cause of all our subsequent issues. By losing our kings we lost our order. Adding to this the invasion from outside significantly disturbed our harmony.

          • senthil says:

            /** Our culture gives extreme importance to paramparya and that takes precedence over everything else just like security in modern times.
            **/
            Its NOT just paramparya.. it is the hygiene that is enforced strictly in our culture.. almost all jathis (part of varna society) followed this strict hygiene.. the level of hygiene varied according to profession..

            The namboodris who has to maintain utmost purity and hygiene to perform pujas in temples, has no other option but to keep away from all other communities who do not maintain that purity..

            The urban brahmins who came out of vaideeha, had NOT understood the importance of this strict hygiene & purity required for entering temples.. because the concept of temples itself has been changed, and they started to see temples as churches..

            I heard from my grandmother, that her mother maintains strict hygiene, and would lay the floor of house and front space with cow dung daily.. she would NOT even allow her own brother, to enter inside the house, as he would roam around so many places..

            I have heard this narration right in my child hood, but able to understand fully only in the recent years, when i started to understand the fundamentals of our temples and civilization..

            My humble request to all those hindu intellectuals.. Dont ever feel guilty for untouchability, done by Vaideeha Brahmins.. ( untouchability by those brahmins who left vaideeha dharma and flirted with british are wrong )..

          • vyas says:

            //Its NOT just paramparya.. it is the hygiene that is enforced strictly in our culture.. almost all jathis (part of varna society) followed this strict hygiene.. the level of hygiene varied according to profession..//

            Not quiet true. If hygiene alone was the focal point, there are several ways to achieve it. But our ancestors insisted on following a specific pattern for generations. Paramparyam plays a vital role.

          • senthil says:

            /** Not quiet true. If hygiene alone was the focal point, there are several ways to achieve it **/

            Pls tell me what are the other ways to achieve it? have you ever tried to follow the hygiene that a vadieeha brahmins has to follow?

            all the proecedures, and paramparya are for the purpose of maintaining that higher state of mental and physical purity.. if you throw away or reject this purpose, then this paramparya becomes blind belief..

          • vyas says:

            //Pls tell me what are the other ways to achieve it? have you ever tried to follow the hygiene that a vadieeha brahmins has to follow?//

            Is there only one method in the whole planet to maintain hygiene? We had classes similar to Brahmins in Europe and America too a few thousand years ago. They didn’t follow the same pattern like our Vaideeha Brahmins for maintaining hygiene. They had their own methods for maintaining hygiene. Just like there are several medicinal treatments for treating one disease.

          • senthil says:

            /** Is there only one method in the whole planet to maintain hygiene? **/

            Just list down those methods you know, and their practical feasibility..

          • vyas says:

            //Pls tell me what are the other ways to achieve it? have you ever tried to follow the hygiene that a vadieeha brahmins has to follow?//

            There are several ways to achieve hygiene using locally available herbs. You and me belong to a nation which had farming as it’s backbone, so we had access to cows. How could people in other continents who do not have access to cows could have followed hygiene?

            //all the proecedures, and paramparya are for the purpose of maintaining that higher state of mental and physical purity.. if you throw away or reject this purpose, then this paramparya becomes blind belief..//

            Agreed. But paramparya comes with practice and not with material. During the period of Adi Shankara a lot of people followed practices that were followed by the tribal people which were anti-vedic according to him, but he never discouraged it. He encouraged people to continue to practice it based on Paramparya.

        • senthil says:

          /** 2. I am OK with asking people to keep away, but my point is this results in preventing people from speaking with each other.
          **/

          You are using generic terms like those liberals who attack us.. When you say “people” speaking with each other, how should i interpret?

          any way, i assume that you meant how come namboodris spoke to other jathis, if they have to maintain 94 feet.. i hope, elderly persons from kerala would be best to explain this..

          My understanding is that this separation is NOT always enfored, and NOT on all namboodris.. Only those namboodris who have to do pooja in temples are required to maintain this distance..

          Those from kerala can enlighten us..

  24. vedamgopal says:

    திரு.செந்தில் வடதேசத்து வடமாள் மற்றும் சோழியதேசத்து வடமாள் என்ற இரண்டுபிரிவிகள் உள்ளன என கேள்விப்படகிறேன். இங்கேயிருந்து சிலதலைமுறை வேதகல்விக்காகவும் சமஸ்கிருத கல்விக்காகவும் வடகேவாழ்ந்து பிறகு இங்கே வந்திருக்கலாம். வடக்கேயே பலதலைமுறைகள் வாழ்ந்து அன்னியபடையெடுப்பால் சிலர் இங்கே குடி பெயர்ந்திருக்கலாம். அல்லது வடமொழியிலும் வேதகல்வியிலும் நன்கு புலமை பெற்ற பரம்பரையில் வந்தவர்களை வடமாள் என்று அழைப்பது வழக்கத்தில் வந்திருக்கலாம். சோழிய தேசத்து வடமர்களைதான் வாத்திமர்கள் என்று அழைப்பதாக சிலர் சொல்கிறார்கள். எனவே நீங்கள் சொல்லும் குற்றசாட்டுகள் எங்கோயோ இடிக்கிறது. மேலும் வழக்கில் ” சோழியன் குடுமி சும்மா ஆடாது” என்ற ஒரு சொல் உள்ளது. இது எல்லா ஜாதிய சோழியனுக்கும் பொறுந்தும் என நினைக்கிறேன்.

    • senthil says:

      So you are not sure of the exact history of the vadama brahmins.. you have tried to explain a part.. why dont we do a comprehensive study of our society? why it was NOT done all these days?

      It is this ignorance of historical background of our people groups, that is effectively used by our enemies to abuse us.. and because we are ignorant, we have no other way but to toe their line..

      I am fighting against this pathetic situation of our people.. so pls take this article as an attempt to understand our history rather than an attack on the Generalised Brahmin..

  25. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** You are trying to put the entire blame on the Brahmin community for all the decay that happened in the past, which is exactly what I’m condemning. I don’t know how many more times I’m going to repeat this statement in this forum.
    **/

    You are repeating the same accusation even after i had clarified that i am targetting ONLY those westernised brahmins and NOT hindutva brahmins or vaideeha brahmins …

    Please let me know whether you understand my stand..

    • vyas says:

      //You are repeating the same accusation even after i had clarified that i am targetting ONLY those westernised brahmins and NOT hindutva brahmins or vaideeha brahmins …

      Please let me know whether you understand my stand..//

      It is you who is not understanding my stand. Why blame only the westernized dubashi Brahmins? Why not dubashi non-Brahmins? If I ask this question, you are simply abusing me of supporting dubashi Brahmins.

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        The Dubashi Brahmin rule was 1000 times better than the Muslim/christian rule now. In attempt to displace Brahmins from government jobs, it has resulted in total lack of backbone in the ruling party.

        http://www.change.org/petitions/global-hindus-protest-against-congress-policy-on-harassment-of-hindus?share_id=uxZFVwRcoW&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

        • senthil says:

          We are NOT discussing about whose rule is better.. we are discussing about the root causes of anti-brahminism.. the excellent skills of dubashi brahmins were used by britishers in running their exploitative colonial beurocracy.. so even though the dubashi brahmins are good mannered, excellent and honest administrators, the end result is more colonial exploitation..

          Yours is a classical example of how our hindu intellectuals are unable to look at the larger picture.. ( Rajeev Malhotra often points out this narrow minded nature of our people )..

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            explotation was NOT done by the dubashi brahmins. It was done by people who came after them. For eg. Rajaji introduced Kula Kalvi thittam.. It is was Kamaraj (with good inention) who popularized Macaulayan education. You cannot blame dubashi Brahmins for explotation, particularly given that they were voted out of power..

          • senthil says:

            /** explotation was NOT done by the dubashi brahmins. **/
            Exploitation was done by britishers using the colonial beurocracy.. the dubashi brahmins were employees of that beurocracy..

      • senthil says:

        /** It is you who is not understanding my stand. Why blame only the westernized dubashi Brahmins? Why not dubashi non-Brahmins?
        **/

        You are shifting the goal post often.. first you accused me of blaming brahmins in general.. and then you are asking why NOT blame Non-Brahmin dubashis.. pls make your stand clear..

        I have clarified you that i did not support or defend any westernised non-brahmin dubashis.. since the focus is on anti-brahminism, now we are discussing only about brahmins alone..

        If you do not support westernised brahmin dubashis, why should you demand that i have to blame non-brahmin dubashis also? this is a silly stand..

        • vyas says:

          //I have clarified you that i did not support or defend any westernised non-brahmin dubashis.. since the focus is on anti-brahminism, now we are discussing only about brahmins alone..//

          You still have not understood my point. The question here is not about defending or bashing dubashi Brahmins/non-Brahmins. The question is you are completely stereotyping the entire issue and putting the blame on westernized Brahmins thereby closing the loop. I’m only asking you to broaden your analysis which will open the gates for more information to come and then you’ll recognize where things went wrong. You are talking as if everything was in a perfect state in our country before Brahmins assumed govt positions, which is completely wrong. Many of our kingdoms fell because of ploys planned by British by conglomerating with non-Brahmin agents in the kingdom. What do you say for that? Anti-Brahminism is a ploy employed by the DK whose thought process was completely hijacked by the work of Christian missionaries and by communist ideologies. It’s very disappointing that you’re supporting it.

          • senthil says:

            /** I’m only asking you to broaden your analysis which will open the gates for more information to come and then you’ll recognize where things went wrong. You are talking as if everything was in a perfect state in our country before Brahmins assumed govt positions, which is completely wrong. Many of our kingdoms fell because of ploys planned by British by conglomerating with non-Brahmin agents in the kingdom. What do you say for that?
            **/

            We are NOT discussing about how britishers captured us.. that’s an entirely different topic, and i would certainly focus more on kshatriyas who aligned with the britishers.. the dubashi brahmins cannot be faulted for that, because it is the non-brahmin soldiers (mainly sikhs, marathas, rajput regiments), who provided the muscle power..

            What i am focussing in this article is on the anti-brahminism propoganda which started in 1900s, and the reasons for mass support of Dravidar Kalagam.. i am breaking this propoganda web, by isolating the westernised brahmins from the vaideeha brahmins.. as you can see, this differentiation has helped me (and all of us) in many debates in this blog itself..

            and i wanted to tell you that i had used the same in defeating many of my relatives and non-brahmin friends at ground level..

            Hope, you would understand my position and purpose now.. i am targetting westernised liberal brahmins to save vaideeha brahmins..

          • vyas says:

            //We are NOT discussing about how britishers captured us.. that’s an entirely different topic, and i would certainly focus more on kshatriyas who aligned with the britishers.. the dubashi brahmins cannot be faulted for that, because it is the non-brahmin soldiers (mainly sikhs, marathas, rajput regiments), who provided the muscle power..//

            This is the fundamental problem I see with you. You are simply treating the two as different set of issues. You talk as if there is absolutely no relationship between the fall of our kingdoms and Brahmins taking up govt jobs. In my opinion had the non-Brahmin people not involved in helping the British to capture power, the subsequent issues would not have happened at all. The sole reason for the entire issue is the defeat of our kingdoms. Had our kings been in power, they’d have taken every step to restore dharma and prevented the Brahmins to take up govt jobs. Also as Vedam Gopal sir rightly pointed out, our independence was significantly delayed by anti-national forces which the British continued to exploit. All I want to tell you is let’s keep the discussion open to gather more information on who did what rather than putting all the blame on dubashi/westernized Brahmins and closing the loop. If they indeed were the real cause for all the trouble I have no qualms in accepting the same, but that’s not right which is what I keep emphasizing.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            /** You are simply treating the two as different set of issues. You talk as if there is absolutely no relationship between the fall of our kingdoms and Brahmins taking up govt jobs.
            **/

            They are two different issues, eventhough they are inter-related.. i am focussing entirely on the events in our history.. i have no issues in accepting that fall of our kingdoms led to british imposing their alien government, and brahmins joining their beurocracy.. But you are refusing to accept the next sequence, that brahmins joining colonial beurocracy led to rise of dravidian movement and anti-brahminism.. we are just analysing the sequence of events, to understand our history properly..

            The next sequence is that it is this brahmin beurocracy, which continued even after 1947, and went on to destroy all remaining native administrations, dislodging our remaining hindu kings.. this is the reason why hindu society has been orphaned today, where all their administrative structures has been destroyed.. those urban hindus, who feel pained by destruction of our society, fail to understand this sequence and obsessed with conversion and islam ..

            So i request you to focus on the historic incidents rather than opposing me.. i am explaining what i understood from my analysis of history.. Its up to you to accept or reject or take it for further analysis..

  26. vedamgopal says:

    A quote from the book “Brahmins in the Tamilcountry” N.Subramanian “” While no one regret the eclipse of the brahmin, even as no one can regret the exit of the British, no one also can be proud of the successors of either, in political and social positions. History has been cruel in this country; and strange were the ways in which this cruelty manifested itself during the three quarter of century which is the period of the dramatic decline of the ‘dynamic brahmin’

    Some more points from the book for Mr.Senthil to munch :- (According to him the following chains which pull them back to a remote ancient point.)
    1. Superstitions which they call religion
    2. Indifference which they call tolerance
    3. Blind addiction to the past which they call respect for heritage
    4. Irrational belief which they call faith
    5. Lack of unity which they think is the freedom of the individual
    6. Pride which they think is self-confidence
    7. Jealousy which they confuse with heal thy competitiveness
    8. Rationalisation of the indefensible which they consider clear proof
    9. Cleverness which they think is wisdom
    10. Accumulation of facts which they mistake for knowledge
    11. Bravado which they attribute to courage
    12. A craze for the status quo which they call conservation of culture
    13. Pretension which they call diplomacy and so on endlessly.

    These are not special to them, but they belong more or less to all the Hindus; but in their case since they are a hunted down minority who are left out in the cold by the very nature of the polity, it comes with a deadening rebound and shows them up for what they are.

  27. vedamgopal says:

    // the excellent skills of dubashi brahmins were used by Britishers in running their exploitative colonial beurocracy.. so even though the dubashi brahmins are good mannered, excellent and honest administrators, the end result is more colonial exploitation.. //

    imaginary statement, not 100% true it is dubash like Justice party, DK, Muslim & Christian, to some extent (delayed the process of freedom) MKG , were the root cause of the colonial exploitation. The truth and fact is maximum number of leaders from this poor Brahmin community arouse a revolt against British vacation from India

    • senthil says:

      this shows your urge to denial prevents you to understand my point.. the brahmins were the major force who ran the colonial beurocracy.. DK, Justice party are players in political arena (NOT beurocracy)..

  28. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** There are several ways to achieve hygiene using locally available herbs. You and me belong to a nation which had farming as it’s backbone, so we had access to cows. How could people in other continents who do not have access to cows could have followed hygiene?
    **/

    You still did not list down the ways..

    • vyas says:

      Senthil – Every community had their own ways to maintain hygiene. For eg. we use combination of neem and lemon in addition to cow dung for cleaning purposes. The tribal people have their own methods of maintaining hygiene using herbs and plant extracts available in forests.

      • senthil says:

        /** Senthil – Every community had their own ways to maintain hygiene. For eg. we use combination of neem and lemon in addition to cow dung for cleaning purposes. The tribal people have their own methods of maintaining hygiene using herbs and plant extracts available in forests.
        **/

        Every community had their own ways to maintain hygiene.. i agree.. but what is the level of that hygiene? Can a leather worker maintain the level of hygiene needed for Brahmins?

        Next the different types of hygiene.. 1. External hygiene.. 2. Internal Body hygiene.. 3. Internal Mental hygiene..

        What you mentioned is external body hygiene.. what about other two?

        1. how can a community which eats flesh, maintain the internal body purity required for brahmins?

        2. To perform the poojas and homams, brahmins have to maintain strict mental purity.. Its a proven today that any visual or sound we hear, affects our body .. so a brahmin has to keep away from negative things.. NOT only brahmins, but the traditional chiefs of gramas and nagaras also do not go to death ceremony and other negative events.. (this is still followed by certain traditional kings & chiefs.. )

        • vyas says:

          //but what is the level of that hygiene? Can a leather worker maintain the level of hygiene needed for Brahmins? //

          This is why I said hygiene methods are dependent on paramparya. A same method of maintaining hygiene was never prescribed for all.

          //What you mentioned is external body hygiene.. what about other two?//

          Again this wasn’t for all. Also even within the Brahmins, not everyone was required to follow strict internal hygiene. During certain pujas or yagnas strict penance was maintained. Back in those days there were certain yagnas where the person would not even drench their teeth with water for days together in order to have desired effect on the mantras.

          //To perform the poojas and homams, brahmins have to maintain strict mental purity.. Its a proven today that any visual or sound we hear, affects our body .. so a brahmin has to keep away from negative things..//

          True. This is why certain Brahmins practiced even un-seeability besides untouchability. A distraction of the mind even for a second will have a drastic negative impact on the mantras. This is why many rishis performed penances in remote isolated places like caves and deep inside forests. Even the people who indulge in maandreegam related activities carry it out during night times in isolated areas.

  29. ராமச்சந்திரசேகரன் says:

    பிராம்மணர்கள் “ஆங்கில ஆட்சியில் ” மிகப்பெரியளவில் வேலையில் இருந்தார்கள் என்பதினால் தான் (பொறாமையினால்) பிராம்மணஎதிர்ப்பு வந்து
    திராவிட இயக்கம் உருவானது என்று கூறும் பிராம்மண எதிர்ப்பாளர்கள்,
    இதேதிராவிடஇயக்ககாலத்தில்தான்அதாவதுநன்குவிழிப்புணர்ச்சிபெற்ற
    செந்தில்போன்றதமிழ்த்திராவிடர்கள்,ஆரிய இனமானவடஇந்தியர்கள்தமிழ்
    நாட்டில்அதிகமாக இங்குவந்து(புகுந்து) வியாபாரம்செய்துசொத்துக்களையும்
    திராவிடத்தமிழ்மக்களிடமிருந்து வாங்கிகுவித்துஉள்ளதையும்,இவர்களின்
    வாழ்வாதரமானவிவசாயநிலங்களையும்கணிசமானஅளவில்இங்குவாங்கி
    குவித்துஉள்ளதையும்எதிர்க்காமல்மௌனம்சாதிக்கின்றனர்.(திராவிடத்தமிழர்கள் வட இந்தியாவில் இம்மாதிரி வியாபரம் செய்து சொத்துக்கள்வாங்கிகுவிக்க முடியுமா/விடுவார்களா என்பது… ?).திராவிடத்தலைவர்கள் செய்யும் அரசியல்/ contracts/advocates/courts தொடர்புடைய எல்லா தரகு வேலைகளுக்கும் ஆரிய இனமான வடஇந்தியர்களை use செய்து கொள்கின்றனர். மற்றும் அவர்களின் சொந்த (அரசியல் மூலமாக வந்த)வியாபரம்/தொழில் சம்பந்தமான விஷயங்களுக்கு திராவிட தமிழ் மக்களை நம்பாமல் ஆரியஇனமான வட இந்தியர்களை நம்புகிறார்கள்.அதாவது பிராம்மண/ஆரிய எதிர்ப்பு அரசியலுக்கு.ஆனால் ஆரிய/பிராம்மண விசுவாசம் அரசியலால் கிடைத்த லாபத்தை வைத்து சொத்துக்களை பாதுகாத்துக்கொள்ளுவதற்கு.ஆங்கிலேயர்கள்காலத்தில்
    “பிராம்மணர்களால்”தமிழ்த்திராவிடர்களுக்கு வேலைபறிபோனதுதென்ற
    பொய்யானகுற்றச்சாட்டுத்தவிர அவர்களுடைய சொத்துக்களை பிராம்மணர்கள்,
    ஆரியஇனமான வடஇந்தியர்கள்தமிழ்நாட்டில்அதிகமாகஇங்குவந்து(புகுந்து)
    சொத்துக்களைகுவித்ததுபோல்,வாங்கிகுவிக்கவில்லை.
    “கோவில்இல்லாத ஊர் பாழ்” என்பது ஒளவையின் பழமொழி.
    “ஸேட்டு இல்லாத ஊர் பாழ்” என்பது நடைமுறை. ஏனெனில் அவர்களிடம்தான் பாமர தமிழ்மக்கள் அவசர பண தேவைக்கு தங்கள் நகைகளை அடமானம் வைத்து பணம் பெறமுடிகிறது.திராவிடத்தலைவர்களின் பேச்சை நம்பினால் “மானம்”போய்விடும் என்று தெரிந்து தமிழ் மக்கள் ஸேட்டுகளை நம்புகின்றனர்.
    தன்னுடைய தமிழ் மக்களுக்கு பிரச்சனை இலாமல் அவசர தேவைக்கு (அதுவும்
    நகை அடமானம் பெற்று) பணம் தர எவ்விதமான திட்டமும் இல்லை/திடமும் இல்லை/இந்நாள் வரை செயல்படுத்தவும் இல்லை. அத்தேவையை ஸேட்டுகள் தான் பூர்த்தி செய்கிறார்கள்.இந்த “லேவாதேவி”முன்பு செட்டியார்களும்/முதலி
    யார்களும்/ஆச்சாரிகளும் செய்து வந்தனர்.அத்தொழிலை ஆரிய ஸேட்டுக்கள் பறித்ததற்கு,நன்குவிழிப்புணர்ச்சிபெற்றசெந்தில்போன்றதமிழ்த்திராவிடர்கள்
    எவ்விதஎதிர்ப்புமில்லாமல்மௌனம்காத்தனர்/காக்கின்றனர்.
    நிலஅபகரிப்புகளிலும் கூடதிராவிடத்தலைவர்கள்அவர்களுடைய ஆரிய “விசுவாசத்தை” காட்டி உள்ளனர்.(உண்மையில் கோழைத்தனம் என்று சொல்லவேண்டும்).எந்தச்சொத்தும் தமிழ் நாட்டில் வாழும் வடஇந்தியர்களிடமோ/மலையாளிகளிடமிருந்தோ அபகரிப்பு செய்யப்படவில்லை.செய்யவும் மாட்டார்கள்.திராவிடத்தலைவர்களுக்கு தெரியும்”நம் பாச்சா எல்லாம் இவர்களிடம் பலிக்காது”.தோற்றுப்போவோம் என்று. அவர்களுக்கு ஒட்டு போட்ட”அருமை தமிழ் நெஞ்சங்களான ஏழை தமிழினம்” /மற்றும் பிராம்மணர்கள் மேல் “தமிழ் வீரத்தை” காட்டி நில அபகரிப்பு செய்துள்ளனர்.பிராம்மணர்கள்போன்றசாதுக்களைப்பற்றித்தான்
    இம்மாதிரி கட்டுரைகளைஎழுத இவர்களின்”வீரம்”எல்லாம். மற்றவர்களிடம் செல்லுபடியாகாது என்று தன் பகுத்தறிவின் மூலமாக தெரிந்து செயல்படுபவர்கள்.மேலும்கடந்த”பச்சைதிராவிடஇயக்க”ஆட்சியின் கொள்ளைகளை/முறைகேடுகளைதிராவிடத்தமிழர்களுக்காகநன்குவிழிப்
    புணர்ச்சிபெற்றசெந்தில்போன்றதமிழ்த்திராவிடர்களால்தமிழ்நாட்டிலிருந்து
    நடத்தப்பட்ட/வெளிவரும்எவ்வொருபத்திரிக்கையும்/தொலைக்காட்சியும்
    வெளிக்கொணரவோ/கண்டிக்கவோ தமிழ்”வீரம்”இடம்கொடுக்கமுடியவில்லை.
    அதைச்செய்தது’ஆரிய பத்திரிக்கையான”தினமணியும்/”பிராம்மண”வாரப்
    பத்திரிக்கையுமான “துக்ளக்”நாளிதழும்தான்.மேலும்மாநில/மத்தியஅரசுதமிழ்
    அதிகாரிகள் “ஆரியர்களான வடஇந்தியர்களிடமிருந்து” லஞ்சம் வாங்கினால்
    குறைந்தளவே வாங்கிதன்னைநல்லவன்போல்Hypocritesகாட்டிக்கொள்ள
    தயங்குவதேஇல்லை.ஆனால்தன்இனமானதமிழர்களிடம்”திராவிட
    பகுத்தறிவைப்பயன்படுத்தி”சட்டத்தைக்காட்டி மிரட்டி”லஞ்சக்கொள்ளை”
    செய்கிறார்கள்என்பதுதான் எதார்த்த நடைமுறை. இவைகளெல்லாம்குறித்து
    கட்டுரை எழுதினாலாவது தமிழ்ச்சமுதாயத்துக்கு உதவும்.முன்னாள்அமைச்சர் சத்தியவாணிமுத்துஅவர்கள் “பிராம்மணர்களால்யாருக்குமெவ்வித தொல்லையுமில்லை.பார்ப்பனரல்லாதார்தான்முக்கியமாகதாழ்த்தப்பட்ட
    மக்களைத்துன்புறுத்துகிறார்கள்.பிராம்மணர்/பிராம்மணரல்லாதார் போராட்டம்
    தேவையற்றது.தேவை சூத்திரர்/சூத்திரரல்லாதோர் போராட்டம்” என்று மொழிந்தது எவ்வளவு பொருத்தமாக உள்ளது என்பது நினைவுக்கு வருகிறது.

    • senthil says:

      @vedamgopal,

      Even after my repeated clarification, you are debating based on brahmin – non-brahmin perspective.. This article s about native brahmins and non-native brahmins of chola dhesam (or in general all dhesams).. pls focus on that..

  30. vyas says:

    // But you are refusing to accept the next sequence, that brahmins joining colonial beurocracy led to rise of dravidian movement and anti-brahminism.. we are just analysing the sequence of events, to understand our history properly..//

    Senthil – I’ve repeatedly told you that anti-Brahminism is a ploy by the British and the missionaries to trivialize the Brahmin community. As a matter of fact Brahminism itself is a word coined by the Europeans. They always projected the Brahmins as dictators. The DK was just used as a scape goat on this entire issue. In fact the DK’s decision to start the anti-Brahmin movement should be seen as an extension of this ideology. Had the likes of EVR been intelligent enough, they would have understood this, but they fell prey to it – the irony is that even after 100 years since this movement was started, they’ve still not gained the intellectual prowessness to understand it. Pls note that during the early 1900’s, the Brahmins became a powerful entity in the British regime. The British themselves didn’t like this. Several of their policies were intellectually rejected by the Brahmin govt servants. The Brahmins out-shined the British intellectually in several places within their own govt. In fact it was Brahmins who planned to take over the British administratively along with support from freedom fighters. There were several letters written by the Brits to their higher officials in England alarming the rise of Brahmins in their own government. The Brits took several administrative and intellectual measures to curb the Brahmins in the govt sector. Malar Mannan has clearly explained this in his book titled “Dravida Iyakkam: Punaivum, Unmaiyum”. In fact you were the one who referred this book to me. I’m not sure if you ever had a chance to read it. Anti-Brahminism is a clever move sparkled to make the non-Brahmins revolt against the Brahmins, thereby paving way for the Brits to continue their tenure in India. Evagelization is also one of the hidden agendas behind this entire ploy. You keep failing to understand that it was the Brahmins who slowed down the evangelical activities (not just from a religious perspective but from a colonial perspective too) of the British regime. The Brits very well understood that the Brahmins were their no.1 hurdle for continuing their tenure in India. Also it was the Brahmins who implanted aspects of our dharma into the British created constitution. It was later cursed and removed by the likes of Ambedkar. You are conveniently ignoring all these facts and trying to put the blame on the Brahmins just because it makes your job easy.

    On your question about destruction of traditional administration, not all dubashi Brahmins were supporting it. Also no Brahmin destroyed the traditional administrative system. It was already ruined with the fall of our kings and kingdoms. Pls note that all these incidents took place at a time when the Brits were a very strong military and administrative force. The Brahmins knew very well that the Brits could not be defeated militarily but only administratively which is exactly what they did or at the least tried their best to do.

    //So i request you to focus on the historic incidents rather than opposing me.. i am explaining what i understood from my analysis of history.. Its up to you to accept or reject or take it for further analysis..//

    Senthil – It’s not the question of accepting or rejecting. We need facts. All I’m saying is that your analysis is completely ignoring the facts and trying to stereotype a particular group as the root cause of the whole problem, which is exactly what I’m protesting against. If your real intention is to learn more about the history of this nation with open mindedness (as you’ve always said), then you should not close the loop on this issue. I’m open to discuss more. It’s up to you to decide if you want to continue further.

    • senthil says:

      @vyas,

      /** We need facts. All I’m saying is that your analysis is completely ignoring the facts and trying to stereotype a particular group as the root cause of the whole problem, which is exactly what I’m protesting against.
      **/

      I have repetedly clarified that i am targetting ONLY the westernised, liberal brahmins, and you still are sticking to your old accusation.. pls review your understanding.. your protest is meningless here.. if you still say, i should not accuse those liberal westernised brahmins, who speak of secularism, individual rights, and who accuse our society of all evils, i wont accept that..

      I am very clear in my mind, that those secular speaking liberal brahmins are hardcore enemies, who deserve the same level of contempt that they had shown on our civilization.. and ofcourse, we have to add those non-brahmin dubashis like PC, MMS to this list, but thats a different case..

      all those brahmins whom you point out as working for national cause are hindutva brahmins, NOT liberals..

      • vyas says:

        //I have repetedly clarified that i am targetting ONLY the westernised, liberal brahmins, and you still are sticking to your old accusation.. pls review your understanding.. your protest is meningless here.. if you still say, i should not accuse those liberal westernised brahmins, who speak of secularism, individual rights, and who accuse our society of all evils, i wont accept that..//

        Senthil – I’ll stop my arguments here. You keep accusing of supporting the westernized Brahmins. I’ve clarified several times that I’m not supporting them at all, but only asking you to look at this issue with open mindedness. All I’m saying is that by ignoring the facts (unknowingly or deliberately) you are committing a grave mistake in your analysis of the history of this nation.

        • Surya Ramachandran says:

          Sachin Tendulkar innings can be classified into three types. Innings where he played well and contributed to victory, innings where he played well and team lost, and innings where he did not play well.

        • senthil says:

          i repeat again.. To me, the liberal secular westernised brahmins is Number ONE Enemy.. i could not compromise on it.. these persons are the Virus destroying within us, and more dangerous.. since you also do not support them, i hope, our issue is resolved..

          I have been always open minded in dealing with things, and have been opposing dubashi Non-Brahmins at many levels.. i will write more about this when appropriate time comes.. so pls dont assume, i am singling out brahmins alone..

  31. vyas says:

    Senthil – Pls watch this interesting discussion….

  32. ராமச்சந்திரசேகரன் says:

    திராவிடர்களென்றும்/தமிழே(ஹிந்தியைஎதிர்த்தவர்கள்)எங்கள்மூச்சுவென்றும்/பிராம்மணர்கள்ஆங்கிலம்பேசினால்மிக்குவெறுப்புற்றதிராவிடத்தமிழர்கள்தான்
    இன்றைய நிலையில்தமிழ்நாட்டின்கலசாரத்தைகாற்றில்பறக்கவிட்டு
    ஆங்கில/ஹிந்திமோகம்பிடித்து டுபாக்கூர்துபாஷிகளாக திரிகிறார்கள்.
    வடஇந்தியர்களுக்கும்/வெள்ளைகாரர்களுக்கும்/மலயாளிகளுக்கும் “கூஜா”
    தூக்கிகொண்டு அலைகிறார்கள்.

  33. all india gurjargaud brahamin samaj parichay sammelan will be held at ratlam on 13th of april 2014 .please fill online form on http://www.gurjargaud.com .
    गुर्जरगौड़ ब्राह्मण समाज का अखिल भारतीय परिचय सम्मलेन १३ अप्रेल २०१४ को रतलाम में होने जा।
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    http://www.gurjargaud.com पर फ्री एंट्री करवाए धन्यवाद।

  34. cutie says:

    The Almighty Brahmin! by Khushwant Singh
    Whatever be the sphere of curiosity – literary, scientific, bureaucratic, or whatever, the Brahmin remains the top dog. Before I give details, we should bear in mind that Brahmins form no more than 3.5% of the population of our country. My statistics come from a pen friend, Brother Stanny, of St. Anne’s Church of Dhule in Maharashtra.They hold as much as 70% of government jobs. In the senior echelons of the civil service from the rank of deputy secretaries upward, out of 500 there are 310 Brahmins, i.e. 63%. Of the 26 state chief secretaries, 19 are Brahmins; of the 27 Governors and Lt. Governors 13 are Brahmins; of the 16 Supreme Court Judges, 9 are Brahmins; of the 330 judges of High Courts, 166 are Brahmins; of 140 ambassadors, 58 are Brahmins; of the total 3,300 IAS officers, 76 [per cent?] are Brahmins. Of the 508 Lok Sabha members, 190 were Brahmins; of 244 in the Rajya Sabha, 89 are Brahmins.This 3.5% of Brahmin community of India holds between 36% to 63% of all the plum jobs available in the country..

  35. cutie says:

    Whole world think that India has many castes which are main reason of discrimination of people but its very very big misconception of caste system spread around the world to defame culture of India because it was the biggest systematically designed system for people from thousands of years. Now let me tell you what is meaning of varna and caste system in India and how its was started. In Ancient India there were two great saints, one was saint Bhrigu and other was saint Bhardwaj. They met to discuss how to structure a stable society for human being to live proper life, First they recognized the four sources which are:
    1. Knowledge 2. Weapons 3. Wealth 4. Land
    They decided to make system where nobody has more than one of that. These should not be in one hand, not even two should be in one hand. So those who has knowledge will not have wealth, will not have weapons and will not have lands. Those who will have weapons will rule the country but they will not make policy. They need to go to people having knowledge to seek their permission and advice. Those who are having wealth, their social status will be decided by the how much philanthropy they do not by their wealth. Those who has lands have to produce for the society. In fact none of these four category or “varna” was based on by birth.

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