Telangana – the first nail on coffin of Colonial India

The announcement of telangana by Congress is one of the turning points in the history of india.  Because it has shook the very fundamentals of current indian geo-political perspective.  In this independance day, lets review the past history of our india, to understand this issue.

Modern India States are Colonial:

The demarcation of current states are purely colonial.  The british first started their trade in Bombay, Madras and Calcutta, and later on when they started colonising, they created provinces based on these three centers –  The Bombay Province, the Madras Province and the Bengal Province.  This division was mainly based on their administrative & Economic control and NOT on nature of the region or the society or history.

However, the diverse decentralised society of our bharath was organised based on the pre-british native administrative system that was based on the ancient 56 dhesams of bharatha varsham. Even during muslim invasion, this native administrative system was not altered or destroyed.(because, they did not have any alternative models).

In 1947, when India got the supposed Independance, the same Colonial State structure was retained (including colonial administrative bureaucracy).  So in reality, the traditional bharath was still colonised by the same institutions that british used.  The only difference is that it was now headed by western education metro indians.

Later when the Indian Government attempted to re-organise states, it merely divided the madras, bombay and bengal provinces based on language, rather than re-organising based on our societal nature.

So the modern india of today, with its linguistic states is actually a continuation of the colonial structure created by the britishers, and NOT the 5000 year old civilization that we often boast of.

The retaining of Colonial Economic structure:

Economic system and Political system are highly inter-dependant.  It is the political and administration system that shapes the economy and the culture of the nation.

The Colonial Beurocratic system was created by britishers, for their own Colonial Economic system.   Whereas the Nizam’s hyderabad had a muslim administration and economic system. The pre-muslim native economic system was functioning under this mulsim system.

Till 1947, the british directly controlled only 40% of our country, and in these regions, the colonial economic system was in force.  Other regions (60%) were administered by the princely states, had their own societal and economic systems.

After 1947, in the name of Integration, the local administration system of princely states was dismantled and replaced with colonial beurocracy, which promoted corporate economy, which was manned operated by the Metro Indians.  (Infact, metros were first created for those who work for British East India Companies and other corporates).

Understanding the Telengana Issue:

The Telengana issue has to be understood from this background.  Andhra and Rayalaseema region was part of madras province directly under the control of britishers, administered by colonial beurocracy.  Telugu people (mostly telugu brahmins) from Andhra and Seema joined the beurocracy in large numbers (along with those from tamilnadu).

Whereas the people from Telengana was under the Hyderabad State ruled by Nizam, and were part of administration of princely states.  So naturally very few people from these region joined the british beurocracy.

At Economic level, the businessmen from Andhra and Seema who established themselves in Colonial Economic system started controlling the economy of the new United Andhra.

At political level, the british introduced alien system of democracy in the Andhra and seema regions, and people of that region had the advantage of early start in establishing political parties.  Whereas in hyderabad state, this political model was non-existent.

So when the princely state of hyderabad was dismantled, and integrated with United Andhra, the colonial administration and polity became prominant.  As a result, the people of Andhra and seems who were already established in colonial systems, occupied the public space of United Andhra.

The administration of new united Andhra was filled with Telugu IAS Officers of Madras Province.  The Businesspeople of Andhra and Seems, who were established in madras province, took over new united Andhra.  And Politically the parties started by people of Andhra and Seema dominated the new state.

All these created a situation where telangana was left out in all spheres.

It has to be noted that these westernised elite groups from Andhra and Seema displayed the usual contempt for the rural india, as any metro indian liberal would do.  The telangana people were treated as lazy, and their culture was made as comedy piece in the films.

Societal and Cultural destruction caused by Linguistic State:

Andhra was culturally four distinct regions based on ancient dhesams of bharatha varsham.

Telangana-Map

  • Telengana
  •  Rayala Seema
  •  Coastal Andhra (called Andhra)
  •  Uttara Andhra – the part of kalinga dhesam.

Each region have their own culture, which can be followed only if the people are able to live in their own region. But the centralisation of political and administrative power at hyderabad, displaced these people from their region, and made them work in remote places.   This has made them unable to follow their culture and socialize with their relations.

The reason is that the buerocrats running the government at Hyderabad have no idea about these social realities, but they are vested with the power to make decision for all these four regions.  Hence any development policies planned by these uprooted officers are made ONLY for the benefit of industries and corporates and NOT done keeping the societal realities and comfort of the people.  Right from marriage, to village festivals, to death ceremony to many family functions, every social events had been made unfeasible in this new capitalistic system.

Solution – Andhra to be Broken in to Four:

The solution to all these issues is to break Andhra in to four regions as mentioned above.

In the current bifurcation, the telangana region will be One Cultural state, whereas the SeemAndhra will again be combination of other three distinct cultural regions.  This will again be unstable and destructive.  So it should be further divided in rayalaseema and coastal Andhra, as separate state.  (Note:  The name Royalaseema was chosen by the people of that region which indicates their distinctness from the Andhra people.  )

The uttara Andhra was part of kalinga dhesam whose region extends to southern orissa. The northern part of the orissa is the Oddara Dhesam.  So the kalinga region of orissa should be separated and merged with uttara Andhra, and a new kalinga state should be formed.

The people spearheading telangana movement had their own website explaining their reasons for demanding separate state http://www.telangana.com

Will Separate Telengana Solve these issues:

We cannot tell that separate telangana will solve all the issues discussed above.  But it will ensure that the domination by Andhra and RayalaSeema people will be stopped, and people of telangana will get the political power to plan for themselves.

Whether they will further exploit their land or preserve their culture cannot be predicted.  It depends on how the external forces acting upon them.  But whatever happens, it is the telangana people who would be responsible, bcoz it is their region and their society.

Unlike in united Andhra, where there is NO social or cultural connectivity b/w telangana people and those officers running the state, in separate telangana, it would be telangana officers who would be running their administration and hence expected to be aware of social and cultural aspects of the region.

Telengana – The first nail on coffin of Colonial India:

The formation of Telengana would be a historic event for our civilization. It is going to break many of the fundamentals on which the current colonial india has been constructed.

  • that india has been the land of invaders.
  • that india has been backward, illiterate, and primodial.
  • that there is no culture of significance in india.
  • that indians do not have the capability to rule themselves.

all the above myths of colonial india had been shattered by Telengana movement.  It has proved that telangana is one of the diverse cultures of india with its own history and rulers.

There has been more than 15 demands for new state across india, and all these new states were based upon our historic cultural regions and they re-inforce the same message – that current indian states are artificial and do not represent our original civilization.

The Mythila Society is the continuation of Videha dhesam of King Janaka – a continuation of ramayana civilization.  This proves that our culture is NOT recent but very ancient.

Telengana also demolished the myth of linguistic state which is an artificial colonial construct and cannot be a basis for administration.

So in every way, the breaking up of lingustic states would be the end of Colonial India, and resurgence of our ancient cultural dhesams.

Request to Hindu Nationalists and Indian Nationalists:

Many hindutva people and urban indian nationalists are opposing this division of Andhra pradhesh.  Their fear is that it would lead to breaking of india.  This fear is unwarranted for many reasons.

The current geopolitical perspective of india is a british construct.  Whereas, our ancestors had a different perspective.  Bharatha Varsham->bharatha Kandam->56 dhesams.

Bharatha varsham is entire south Asia and includes thailand, cambodia, indonesia etc.  Bharatha kandam is what Hindu Organisations call the Akhanda Bharath.  The 56 dhesams are the rajyams created and built by our kshatriyas from the forest lands.

Which means, we are already united as an akhand bharath, but in a different way.  So far, we have failed to recognise this. And the colonial forces had suppressed our original cultural identities through colonial historic narration.

Now there has been a renewed awareness across india, and people of different cultural regions had asserted their historic cultural identity.  We have to decide, whether we want to keep existing colonial india or revert to our original civilization.

Let the telangana be the first nail on the coffin of colonial India.  Every state formed on cultural regions will be one more nail on it.

BJP calls for Second States Re-Organisation Commission

Outlook’s article: India Redrawn

india redrawn

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231 Responses to Telangana – the first nail on coffin of Colonial India

  1. Surya Ramachandran says:

    The issue where Seemandhra people have pointed out is the issue of Hyderabad. Investments in Hyderabad etc, were all made by Seemandhra people. Now after the city has developed Telengana people want to take for themselves.

  2. kedar says:

    @surya: Well, there is another side to the story:

    1) Demand was Telangana was there right from the beginning when there were no visible effects of Andhra investments. In 1969, 300 students were shot dead during Telangana Agitation just like the Chinese Tiananmen Square.

    2) These so-called much-touted investments dwarf in comparison to massive infrastructure already present in Hyderabad at the time of merger– Nizam’s buildings (notably The Assembly building), the roads and railways and the airport. Before merger, these investments could have been used in building their own capital. The question does arise –why did Andhra people desire for a merger in the first place if they were stuffed with their investments? On the other hand, the Hyderabad state was happy within itself. We were not itching for a merger.

    • senthil says:

      @kedar,

      I agree with you.. Hyderabad was already a well developed city.. after merger, the seemandhra people colonised it.

      As i mentioned in my article, it is the administrative and economic system that has to be looked in to. After 1947, the colonial system was imposed on all princely states, dismantling their native ones.. Thus people of those princely states were not used to this colonial system, and hence were left behind..

      Pls look at telangana.com for more details..

      • Zed says:

        You got your facts wrong. Hyderabad was developed only for NIzams and their minions. For everybody else it was a very backward city. It was only capital from Andhra (mostly) that developed the city.
        If you want to write about Andhra, fine, but at least learn to spell the key terms right. Telangana, Seema, Andhra. Do a simple spell check, if you are not bothered to show even that consideration, who should care what you have to say?

        • ProudIndian says:

          Zed, lets have the courage to face facts.
          Every city in India are developed along with line of global factors.
          When there is an opportunity,, any businessmen irrespective or region/language/city invest for profit. In this case, either for close proximity/opportunity made, Andhra investors numbers more. Lets not forget even silent non telugu origin Indians Investors too contributed to the Hyd’s growth. They consider themselves as Hyderabadis and respect localites. Lets not forget superiority complex of certain sects that makes other sects uncomfortable. As an Indian, we are proud to be part of this state and city.

      • senthil says:

        @Zed,

        /** Hyderabad was developed only for NIzams and their minions. **/

        That’s what i am saying.. it was already developed for Nizam, which was later used as capital for united andhra..

        /** If you want to write about Andhra, fine, but at least learn to spell the key terms right. Telangana, Seema, Andhra. **/

        I am not that much expert in english.. i focus on the message, with my limited time.. i have made the changes u suggested.. hope u would bear with my low quality english ..

    • Kaling Kanuri says:

      Kedar,

      You are totally wrong. Nizam’s building are only worth for cowsheds at the time of takeover from Nizam. Andhra people invested 2 Lakh crores in Hyderabad to develop this and help everyone in the sate.

      • senthil says:

        Why NOT seemandhra people invest those precious 2 lakh crores in their own region? why did they force telangana to merge with their united andhra, when the telangana people opposed it at 1956 itself?

        • ProudIndian says:

          Asked the same question to all andhra friends… They want to protect thier soil and exploit telangana natural resource for profit… why invest in first case? for whose sake they invested? Were they passionate about Hyderabad?

  3. KP says:

    /* Solution – Andhra to be Broken in to Four: */

    Actually your head should be broken in to Two for writing such article.

    • senthil says:

      when telengana people wants a separate state, you want to force them in to united andhra.. this is also an oppression :) ..

      i can understand your frustration of seeing colonial india broken in to pieces..

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – This is a junk argument. There are people in India who don’t want to be a part of India. Would you then divide them into separate countries. For example the people of North East have more cultural affinity towards China than India and they are already asking the Indian govt to merge Arunachal Pradesh with China. In fact most of the folks influenced by Dravidian ideologies do not want to be part of India. Would you support it?

        • ujcricket says:

          i don’t agree that people of NE are culturally linked to chinese. no not at all. china doesn’t even bordered them. it is Tibet which may influence NE culture but not china. and tibet and chinese culture are as different as pakistani (Indian) or afghani / persian culture. the states of tripura and assam are somewhat influenced by bengali culture. arunachal is like bhutan .

        • senthil says:

          @vyas,

          1. How do you know / conclude that people of North East dont want to be part of India? even if some one from there said this, what is the background of those people?

          2. The Himalayas are the border b/w china and bharatha varsha.. as such, the southern province of china adjoining arunachal pradhesh was separate from manchurian china.. the chinese had built a southern gatewall, which is only recently discovered..
          http://www.greatwallforum.com/forum/other-ming-dynasty-great-wall-locations/551-southern-great-wall.html

          3.
          /** For example the people of North East have more cultural affinity towards China than India and they are already asking the Indian govt to merge Arunachal Pradesh with China
          **/
          Pls come out of such stereotypes.. The current china is a forced entity and NOT a single homogenous cultures.. Tibet is NOT part of china.. the mandarin speaking northern people are culturally separate from southern province.. pls read the below link…
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_and_southern_China

          Just trace the himalayas up to china and you can understand the geography..

          4. I have pointed many times, that it is the religious group that is demanding separatism and NOT the cultural regions.. if you take separatism of religios groups of north east as legitimate and ask questions, there cannot be any answer..

      • senthil says:

        /** There are people in India who don’t want to be a part of India. Would you then divide them into separate countries **/

        The people who demand independance in north east are the christian converted ones.. Similarly, it is the linguistic tamilnadu which demands separation from india..

        whereas, NONE of the cultural regions ever ask separate nation.. they only ask for autonomy within india..

        so we should not confuse ourselves by grouping everything in single basket.. we have to differentiate and understand case by case..

      • Zed says:

        You are wading into a river without knowing how deep it is. You are jumbling up facts, distorting history and showing up yourself basically as a fool. And you picked a topic that is tangential to your agenda but at the same time highly emotional.

        1. The state split has nothing to do with deshams that you keep quoting but never give me a reference for how you arrived at 56 of those. Not one work, one reference.

        2. There was no mention of Telangana prior to Nizams taking control of that region. It was not like there was a Telangana desham. The capital at Orugally (Warangal) run by Kakatiya emperor was the bulwark against the repeated turn invasions. That empire extended all the way to the east coast, so Telugu people do have a memory, a fond memory of that period. Telangana is just recent… those parts that fell to the Bahmanis around Golconda became Telangana. The rest managed to fight out these moslems. As a bargain with british, the nizam (who finally became independent) gave up 4 districts to British control to save his ass from Marathas. These 4 districts were called Gutta Seema (ceded districts) and this was further renamed to Rayalaseema.

        3. A majority of the people were excluded from jobs in military, police, courts and government service. This was only for moslems. After India became independent, there was a brutal war waged on and then waged by these same people till Hyderabad was liberated. Just because they lived like slaves and were forced to learn urdu, it does not mean Telangana is somehow culturally separate from Andhra. On the contrary, it diverged ‘because’ of the hard time they fell into under the Nizams and their Velama allies. Their culture was made fun of not by Andhra people but by the nizams and his boys everyday. Imagine living a life like that and then claiming it was heavenly. The phrase Telangi Belangi was not made up by people from Andhra, it was made by those very nawabs and all that Telangana people admire today.

        4. Unlike other states that divided amicably, there are a lot of emotions involved here. Of course the investment in Hyderabad is one issue, but things are much more deeper than that. Telugu people recognize what happened in last 500 years must be undone. Nobody says Kakatiyas were Telangana or Potana was Telangana.

        5. Ironically, the separation demand got revived recently by an outsider to Telangana area. YSR promised nice things to Chandrasekhar Rao to raise the Telangana issue to break the TDP for whom the OBC/Kamma combination was working so well. The danger of playing politics with such issue is now on display. YSR got what he wanted, he managed to win elections but look at the damage done now.

        6. This separate state demand is raised only by Velama folks, government employees and naxalites. It does not have widespread support. Everytime the movement was about to die down, somebody from Delhi (usually a tamilian, for a strange reason) takes interest in reviving it.

        7. You average paan chewing moslem who lost his reservation and privileges under his beloved nawabs is not going to help build a city. He can only survive off what he leaches off of you. He cannot do IT, efficient agriculture, industry. All these came from coastal districts. And they employed who ever they found fit, irrespective of where they are from. What happens if/when those industrialists go away? You think revenue comes by magic? Even the Dharmic kings of old understood the value of commerce and invited merchants and builders to their kingdoms. You seem to be advocating the opposite.

        8. What happens to those people from Andhra who live in Hyderabad? What if naxalites target them a couple of years from now? what if their homes/properties are looted since the leaders who promised Telangana have nothing to show in terms of development after say 3 years? Who guarantees their safety? And what do you think happens in the rest of the districts once people figure out the truth…that it was a game played by sonia and the tamilians? rajiv gandhi statues are already being destroyed in those districts…. there are no tamilian statues…but a good number of tamilians living there…now do you get the point?

        So educate yourself, get the background and understand the consequences of what you are advocating. Your Jati rants are ok becasue they are harmless…this one is different.

      • senthil says:

        /** 1. The state split has nothing to do with deshams that you keep quoting but never give me a reference for how you arrived at 56 of those. Not one work, one reference.
        **/

        I have seen these dhesams in copper plate inscriptions.. i dont know if any online version is there..
        I write my posts based on knowledge i gathered from various sources.. I focus on understanding rather than proving facts..

        Do you think all those dhesams i mentioned did not exist in the past?

    • ProudIndian says:

      Lets talk with issue in hand rather being personal…. This is the habit of any participants who whats to make his/her statement as verdict for personal interest/biased..

  4. swami says:

    Senthil,

    How would division of telengana impact the upcoming elections? If india is made as 50 states (like USA, united states of india), how would that influence the center in terms of administration? Lot of items has to be taken care right from sharing of natural resources.

    Sardar patel did the job of consolidation. Are you going to blame him for this? It was done for a purpose to get unity to fight for freedom. probably we should have been intelligent enough to dismantle this once the so called freedom was announced.

    • senthil says:

      We should not see telengana from modern political perspective.. we have to look at it from cultural point of view..

      Does this current andhra government reflect any culture? On the other hand, a separate telengana could represent its culture unambigously..

      When people of more than 20 regions are demanding separate state, we have to respect that..

      To give an analogy, every one has complete ownership of managing their own homes.. Imagine if some external entity clubs our home with neighbour homes, and says that there would be only common management of all homes.. imagine, even for changing a table or chair in our home, we have to get permission from the common management? and imagine, if the wife and children gets everything she needs from this common centralised system, will there be any harmony in the house? Everyone will just individual sharing the house, without any ownership..

      That is what happening in today’s colonial system.. Every cultural region is a large commune, which is like our home.. and its natural that every cultural home wants certain level of independance, freedom and privacy, just like every home in a colony wants..

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – The real question is how far can we keep bifurcating the nation? India is a peculiar nation. We have different accent (if not language), food, clothing, lifestyle etc for every 100 kms. If each of them demand a separate state there would be atleast a thousand states in the nation. How do you think one could allow that? My point is that this bifurcation is going to be never ending unless we curb it using some criteria. As you know we already hear voices of muslims and christians demanding separate states or union territories, pointing to differences in their culture. Since Islam and Christianity are alien to our nation they could very well argue that they are of different culture and could use that a justification for a separate state or a union territory. If we allow that to happen it will be as good as a separate nation which would be dangerous. Providing separate states for chrisitians and muslims is far more dangerous since they’ll run them like separate nations. I only wish we don’t hit the same scenario as soviet union.

      • senthil says:

        /** Senthil – The real question is how far can we keep bifurcating the nation? **/

        The current colonial India can NEVER be called a nation.. its a colonial entity.. this is should be demolished to the core.. why do you worry for this colonial entity?

        We need to have a correct perspective, to take things forward..

        /** We have different accent (if not language), food, clothing, lifestyle etc for every 100 kms. If each of them demand a separate state there would be atleast a thousand states in the nation. How do you think one could allow that?
        **/
        This is an imagined fear.. Our diverse cultures are formed based on our ancient 56 dhesams of bharatha varsham.. so the number of new states would not exceed 50.. (as few dhesams are in pakistan and bangladesh)..

        Please dont imagine things.. take time to study and understand.. lets listen to the people’s voice.. the demand of 15 or more new states currently put forth in different parts of india exactly matches these ancient dhesams.. for eg, the mythila state is based on videha dhesam (King Janakas kingdom) .. there is no reason for a mythila state to further divide, because it is ONE harmonious cultural entity that exists since ramayana times..

      • satheeshjm says:

        /*The current colonial India can NEVER be called a nation.. its a colonial entity.. this is should be demolished to the core.. why do you worry for this colonial entity?*/

        Are you saying the only way we can preserve our tradition/culture is to have separate independent nations for each culture?
        We might have 100s of countries in the place of what we call India.. That will most certainly lead to chaos.

    • senthil says:

      Sardar Patel might have done what is best for him at that time.. he just consolidated all different princely states.. but he died before he could re-organise the states.. the nehru govt, instead of reviving our indigenous systems, imposed the colonial machinery..

      So most of today’s problems can be attributed to the states re-organisation..

      • anonymouse says:

        Senthil ji,

        “Patel just consolidated the princely states”….the just in this sentence is very unjust!

      • senthil says:

        /** “Patel just consolidated the princely states”….the just in this sentence is very unjust! **/

        I agree.. Consolidation is a gigantic task which patel did effectively.. what i wanted to convey is that patel died before states are re-organised.. so the western educaed nehru shattered the works of patel..

        • ProudIndian says:

          patel ji, consolidated…. some interest initiated state formation for the first time in India based on Language without the complete interest of same language speaking pple or other region.
          Section Formation of AP – Post Independence – third para
          ” Meanwhile, Telugu-speaking areas in the Northern Circars and Rayalaseema regions were carved out of the erstwhile Madras state as a result of the ‘fast unto death’ incident by Potti Sri Ramulu to create Andhra State in 1953, with Kurnool as its capital.[19][20][21]”
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telangana#Formation_of_Andhra_Pradesh

  5. swami says:

    by the way, i like your caption. that really seeps deep within.

  6. poovannan says:

    If nizams area of rule becomes a powerful and successful criteria for separation than language/religion/caste based affinities, it indicates a defenite capitalistic shift and not a return to roots.
    The fight is for government jobs and is not even remotely associated with culture as the caste profile of people remain the same in both the parts with sizeable presence of reddys/kapus/brahmins etc in both telengana and andhra.Madigas are predominantly present in telengana while malas are more in andhra.Apart from this there is no major caste based difference unlike other state demands where jats are significant in harit pradesh,gounders in kongu nadu,gorkhas in gorkhaland,bodos in bodoland,kukis in kukiland etc
    Telengana,rayalaseema,coastal andhra inspite of union as a single state existed as separate states for all purposes where 85%seats in colleges and govt jobs where reserved zonally where telengana,andhra and rayalaseema where three zones.The only point of contention was hyderabad which was declared common zone and had the maximum number of jobs and this alone was /is the major motivating factor for telengana/samakyanadhra.The previous govt removed hyderabad from common zone to telengana to satisfy the telengana demands but the disproportionate presence of people from other regions was used by KCR effectively to keep the fire for separation burning
    It has nothing to do with culture and both andhra and telengana fight for a muslim majority hyderabad ignoring their own caste men/people who speak the same language while MIM wants a separate union territory status.The basic fault lies with the absence of any love or affinity for telugu and brutal domination of powerful reddies/kammas/rajus who own thousands of acres in both sides making leaders of downtrodden groups turn naxalites or fall for demands like separate telengana

    • senthil says:

      /** where 85%seats in colleges and govt jobs where reserved zonally where telengana,andhra and rayalaseema where three zones
      **/

      the very existence of these zones itself proves that the three regions are distinct.. why do you want a common government to reserve seats separately for these zones.. make these zones as separate state, and let them take care of their needs..

    • senthil says:

      Nizam’s hyderabad princely state included maratha territory and karnataka territory.. so today’s telengana is NOT based on it, but based on pre-nizam social structure and culture..

      The presence of reddy sin all regions doesnt mean there is homogenous culture.. in tamilnadu, the pillais are present in both pandya and chola regions.. yet they are culturally different..

      The structure of castes is more or less same for all dhesams, right from north to south.. there will be washerman, barer, drum beater, brahmins in all the cultural dhesams.. this is what i call a social framework.. it is the culture, history and the regional rituals, the internal societal relations, that makes the difference..

      All families have husband, wife and children.. does that mean all families have same culture..

      • poovannan says:

        You are avoiding the truth.What will you say if kongu vellalaars around erode want to separate from konguvellalas near dharmapuri.Telengana is similar to that.People who belong to the same caste/religion/language are on opposite sides fighting for separation and getting control over a area with heavy concentration of urdu speaking very conservative muslims just because it has the highest number of seats/jobs
        Caste /language/religon has failed to integrate people to live together peacefully as a single unit is the message from telengana

      • senthil says:

        People of same cultural region wont ask separate state, and i am damn sure.. If they ask, then it means they should have distinct culture which does not happen now.. you are arguing based on random imaginations..

        The demand for separate state are always made on historic basis.. just analyse all those demands of new states, and u will understand..

  7. swami says:

    how did the southern desams deal with kavery? i guess the question is probably not applicable as the river probably had water all the time to satisfy the needs of both the today’s TN & Karnataka region.

    still, there should have been some agreement between the desams on kavery water, dam construction etc. can you throw some light on it?

    • senthil says:

      All Our ancient dhesams were formed based on catchment area and river flow.. the boundaries of dhesams are demarcated in such a way that both the catchment area and the river where the water ends up both lie within the dhesam.. our ancestors were very practical..

      Whereas the persons who divided our states after independance has never considered these geographical aspects.. they just divided the states based on pulls and pushes by different segments..

      The current river problem are all political.. and the parties do it for their political gains.. break karnataka in north & south (Mysore kingdom), and break tamilnadu in to four regions.. people will take care of themselves..

      • ProudIndian says:

        Do we know who started movement – separate state based on language?
        10million dollor question……

        Formation of Andhra Pradesh : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telangana#Formation_of_Andhra_Pradesh
        Post Independence section
        Third para “Meanwhile, Telugu-speaking areas in the Northern Circars and Rayalaseema regions were carved out of the erstwhile Madras state as a result of the ‘fast unto death’ incident by Potti Sri Ramulu to create Andhra State in 1953, with Kurnool as its capital.[19][20][21]

        The movement not only initiated AP but also rest of Indian state based on language….

        Lets have courage to face fact….and do root cause analysis.

        Who started movement on what basis? why did they persuade reluctant Telangana ppl and form AP based on language? Include Telangana for language based state for whose benefit? self or Telangana benefit?

    • senthil says:

      when we decentralise the power structure, the local people will have more say on the issues and affairs.. the role of political parties will be reduced, which will pave way for peaceful resolution..

      today, all the political game are played on articial identities.. a mysore state and a chola dhesam state wont fight like what tamilnadu and karnataka does..

  8. swami says:

    /*MIM wants a separate union territory status.*/

    Put saniyan in baniyan and give minority power to speak in the name of democrazy. this is what will happen. if they want a seperate union territory its fine. but slowly they will ask more. minority demands are like cancers while not all people of minority group are bad. there are good people with high integrity and moral values in all religions and jaathis irrespective of their current status.

    but these screaming minority gang is definitely a cancer. needs some quarantine..

    • senthil says:

      The MIM is going to be the worst affected of all.. MIM and missionaries were able to control the state, because the people are divided in to four regions, and hence one is pit against other.. but now, the muslim and christian control of the andhra state will come to an end with formation of telengana.. bcoz muslims are just 11% and christian 3% there.. so it is a double win for us.. the region is liberated from muslim and christian control, and the native culture is also revived.. the problem of secularism, and all other liberalist ideologies will utterly fail in such cultural states..

      • nyaya says:

        This is wrong. Because once telangana-coastal rivarly goes, then caste rivalry can be used. MIM has already begun this by pretending to support dalits. They did this even during nizam’s time.

        This is straight out of cong playbook, KHAM, and other caste formulas + unified minority block. MIM/Cong power was first broken by NTR’s Telugu Desam, which emphasized linguistic pride over caste formulas to teach congress sultans a lesson. It is linguistic pride the protected telugu brahmanas. People may argue that TDP is mainly one kamma caste but forget that, razakars used to attack anyone putting up telugu signboards in Hyderabad. When NTR came to power, he fixed this and them. Problem for cong and MIM is that telugu hindus were too strong–this splits their power and as bonus, lays ground work for cauvery style river disputes between andhra and telangana—union government wins.

        PV Narasimha Rao was a Telangana Brahmin–even still, he knew danger of hyderabadi razakars, that’s why he didn’t support telangana. KCR is descendant of traitors who supported golconda sultan against vijayanagara (which protected brahmanas). A vote for Telangana is a vote for owaisi.

  9. vyas says:

    Senthil – In my humble opinion this is a half-baked article. While I’m happy on one side that we are moving a step towards breaking the linguistic barrier, you never discussed the threat from minorities and alien forces. Increasing the number of states may also lead to faster development of the nation – I mean urbanization. Today one of our biggest threats to our culture is urbanization and a highly decentralized structure may fall prey to it pretty quickly than otherwise. Secondly you never talked anything about minorities and their effects in post telengana era. Already there have been strong voices from minorities for forming their own states or union territories but you never seem to mention anything about that in your article. As far as I’m concerned the risk involved in this setup is pretty high. While we may be able to curb colonial related problems with this type of divide, it will invite other new problems that would pose new threats to the country.

    • senthil says:

      /** Senthil – In my humble opinion this is a half-baked article. **/

      Lets bake it to full through discussion :) :)

    • senthil says:

      /** Increasing the number of states may also lead to faster development of the nation – I mean urbanization. Today one of our biggest threats to our culture is urbanization and a highly decentralized structure may fall prey to it pretty quickly than otherwise
      **/

      I think otherwise.. decentralisation will reduce and stop urbanisation..

      Today’s urbanisation is nothing but Ghettoisation implemented for capitalistic model.. this urbanisation is made possible by displacement and migration of people.. when decentralisation could reduce this migration and displacement, urbanisation will be stopped.. there cannot be urbanisation without people migration..

      Decentralisation will create more administrative centers.. NOT more cities as we have now..

      For eg, Gujarat’s Ahmedabad was called the city of beurocrats.. bcoz only those administrators settled there..

      • vyas says:

        //I think otherwise.. decentralisation will reduce and stop urbanisation.. //

        Pls note that we are not breaking India into nations. We are just breaking it into more number of states. The central authority is still going to be with India as a nation and it’s policies are still going to affect the new states if they are formed as given in the new map. So on one side we may probably be able to procrastinate urbanization but will not be able to stop it. The change needs to happen on the policy and restructuring the nation is not the only solution. Again I repeat. I’ll be the most happiest person if India materializes as shown in the new map since it will transform us away from our linguistic mindset which is the number one hurdle for India’s unity. But at the same time this is not a permanent solution. The real change needs to happen in our policies. Anyway we’ll have to wait and see how telengana shapes up in the next decade or two.

    • senthil says:

      /** Already there have been strong voices from minorities for forming their own states or union territories but you never seem to mention anything about that in your article. As far as I’m concerned the risk involved in this setup is pretty high. While we may be able to curb colonial related problems with this type of divide, it will invite other new problems that would pose new threats to the country.
      **/

      It all depends on the stance we are to take.. We should not entertain separate state based on religion or language.. Only ethnicity, history and culture should be the basis for separate state.. why MIM could not claim over telengana, eventhough Nizam Ruled over it? because they were the invaders, whereas the people of telengana were the original settlers who built their dhesam..

      Similarly kashmir should be seen based on its history and NOT based on religion.. in that case, the kashmiri pandits have unambigous rights over their dhesam, and muslims from other regions cannot claim any right based on religion..

      Lets not be prisoner to minority fear psychosis.. we should be unambigous in our own stand, and should not compromise, out of imagined fear..

      • Is there a possibility of local satraps who fought for the creation of smaller states like Telangana etc becoming too dominant and turning into numerous Sheik Abdullas of J & K fame?
        I feel this sort of decentralisation in our present political setup has the risk of producing such an eventuality.

        • ujcricket says:

          absolutely right, these political parties just for selfish reasons, provoke regionalism in the hearts of innocent people. just because of this attitude India was a slave country for centuries. if this happens than the colonialistic powers of modern world like china, USA will ignite seperatist sentiments among them and use them. we need new states , but not based on language, culture, ethnicity .

        • senthil says:

          Your comment shows how you people have NOT understood our pre-british civilization, NOR the native administrative system NOR the social setup based on cultural regions.. I can ONLY see the islamophobia or christophobia, in all your comments..

          First understand some basic aspects.. It is the “RELIGION” that had demanded separatism.. NONE of our cultural regions, ever asked for separate country.. (Pls dont quote Dravidar Kalagam.. they are known missionary & british stooges)..

          Seconldy on what legitimacy can the urban india deny or give rights? Whereas, the telengana people demand their rights, based on their historic rights, as the people who lived there for thousands of years..

      • senthil says:

        This is one of the “Phobias” that many nationalists have.. that is unwarranted.. the J&K is a different issue and should not be considered with cultural regions, which should have been formed as state after 1947.. since the Nehru govt did not do that, we are now discussing what should have done in the first hand..

        India would be more stable if states are re-organised in to cultural regions, than the current colonial linguistic setup..

        It is the linguistic tamilnadu which demands separatism, and NOT the cultural region of chola, pandya, kongu or thondai dhesams..

        • ujcricket says:

          “phobias” , ” j&k diiferent issue” hahaha…
          i think u never heard of the marathi parties like shivsena and MNS or how sp & bsp run uttar pradesh (total gundaraaj). i think u don’t know about a state in north india known as Punjab. plz search about it especially about the period of 70′s and 80′s. and if a word like “khalistan” appears then plz don’t neglect it.

          • senthil says:

            You are exhibiting the same phobia i pointed out.. :) ..

            i am debating based on our ancient history.. why should you drag the current day politlcal happenings here.. focus on our ancient history..

      • I am in agreement with you regarding dismantling the language based state formation based on the colonial agenda. The first step towards creation of (smaller) states aka desams based on cultural roots would be to form smaller entities like Telangana. My only issue is if the process is stopped here, i.e just with redrawing the map and creating smaller states like Telangana, the local prominent personality who agitated for such a split would seek “ownership” of the newly created state as his personal fiefdom, just because his voice was the loudest in asking for the split in the first place! As we can very well observe, in our present political system, barring the BJP and Communist parties, most of the rest are single-person-personality- led outfits. It is possible that one or two of these “leaders” (like presently in TN) would alternate the “throne” between themselves and seek to perpetuate their rule on the people of these newly created states. The status quo would continue, but in a smaller and more widespread form.

        I agree that creation of Telangana is the first nail on the coffin of the colonial idea of linguistic states. But one nail is not enough to seal the coffin airtight!. The idea of decentralisation of governance has to be followed through down to the village panchayat / pincode levels so that the populace is directly involved in decision making. (I am just outlining the idea here, a fuller explanation may be out of topic). That means a lot more decentralisation nails have to be hammered into the coffin and finally a “party-less” system driven as a stake through the colonial Dracula’s heart, so that it never can arise from its grave again!

      • senthil says:

        @pancha janyan,

        I fully agree with you.. its NOT enough to redraw the maps.. the entire political system should be changed.. some important things which i feel can be done are:

        1. the traditional administration should be officially recognised and legally empowered..
        2. the rights of every jathi in the village setup should be officially recognised and protected.
        3. The traditional panchayat system should be revived (instead of current dubious poisonous vote based system).

        For all these, there needs to be a sociological study about different cultural regions.. so far there has not been any single official study made on it.. the only extensive study is the book “Castes and Tribes of Southern India” by edgar thurston, detailed each and every caste groups that existed at that time.. but this is only a travellers account, and NOT a detailed study..

        • zorro says:

          Senthil, you sound like a hypoctite. Do you know why ? You blame the British, the Christian and the missionary for a lot of problems. But you are referring to a book “Castes and Tribes of southern india by Edgar Thurston a christian missionary who took the effoert to document in his own way the prevailing castes in South india. No my question for you or any other member in this blog: Please show any PRIOR work of compilation of the prevailing castes in south india, AP region, TN region etc. done by a hindu prior to the arrival of the muslim invader or the british christian
          Also if someone were to accept your logic then even the indian army is a british christian legacy.. Can you reorganise it on the same terms as the states you propose. Suddenly the kashmiri soldier will start to wonder why he as to make the sacrifice for the telengana man !
          Your reply please

  10. “It has nothing to do with culture and both andhra and telengana fight for a muslim majority hyderabad ignoring their own caste men/people who speak the same language while MIM wants a separate union territory status.The basic fault lies with the absence of any love or affinity for telugu and brutal domination of powerful reddies/kammas/rajus who own thousands of acres in both sides making leaders of downtrodden groups turn naxalites or fall for demands like separate telengana”

    Exactly. Another article where the author twists the logic to suit his propaganda. The clamour is for jobs and the Muslim-dominated-Hyderabad. Where did caste come into this ? It all comes to the economy finally. If the region is not developed or the people find it insufficient, they have the power to ask for it.

    Besides, it’s funny that the author who blames democratic India is praising this move as though it was created by undemocratic means. This move actually proves that in a democracy, the power lies with the people, eventhough it may cause delays sometimes due to the government. If BJP was there in 2004, they would have created Telengana much before all these riots and struggle. Besides, MP, Bihar etc. had already been split without much fuss.

    • swami says:

      Excellent India First.So anything good, even if it has a cultural or ethnical reason behind, you will attribute to modern day democracy. On the other hand, anything bad, you will pose it on traditional bharat and Jaathi.varna.

      • There is nothing good or bad here. The people wanted it and they are getting the state. The author has been claiming that democracy does not give the people their choice and is often against their wishes. This is just one instance that shows that it’s not true. Will the lower castes be able to rebel like this and get their way in the caste system ? History shows that it was not that easy and required a lot of struggle.

      • swami says:

        Show me in history when and how people of the so called low caste considered themselves as low class in first place and then rebelled as you claim ?

      • zorro says:

        Swami, what prevented all the hind kingdoms who shared their common glorious heritage, traditions, etc from coming together and throwing out the muzzie invader. Why were they were petty and divided even before the british landed on this soil ?
        Please explain

    • Zed says:

      “The clamour is for jobs and the Muslim-dominated-Hyderabad. ”

      Check the census numbers. You got your facts wrong. Hyderabad is now Hindu dominated numerically. In case of education and wealth, it is slam dunk, moslems don’t even figure.
      Is it that hard to check on something if you don’t know before shooting your mouth (or keyboard) off?

      • poovannan says:

        Including secunderabad and extended hyderabad corporation makes the muslims minority but hyderabad is still a muslim city where MIM wins effortlessly and has a rigid control over the muslim majority areas.The percentage of rich muslims in hyderabad will be the highest in the entire country among muslims barring kashmir.

      • Domination doesn’t mean numerically superior. Still, Hyderabad is has 41% Muslim population which is the highest in any urban area except J & K.

        http://www.aicmeu.org/Muslim_Population_Distribution_in_India.htm

        Besides, as pointed below, MIM has been winning it since 1984 (I think) repeatedly.. They had won majority of municipal seats also recently.. Maybe you have to visit the place or check the situation before jumping the gun ?

      • Ramanathapuram in TN has only 14% Muslim population but that doesn’t stop them from being the dominant community in most spheres.. It doesn’t mean Hindus are less in number or poorer but the political and public representation of Muslims is higher than the rest of the country.

        • Uday says:

          14% muslims in ramanathapuram is a official count ,realistically they are 35%-40% in the district,as you say they are powerful in education(engineering colleges,colleges and schools)commerece,and hospitals.
          But culturally and even otherwise they are intwined with other communities(Hindus,and Christians) calling them mama,and chachas,and there is no communal tension as you witness in north india,and Hyderabad ,it is very comman to see churches,mosques,and temple adjacent to each other,whole india should learn from t.n.

      • Zed says:

        So now you do not interpret the word ‘dominated’ as a numbers game or economic thing but a political representation thing. Then why din’t you say so in the first place?

        The reason MIM wins so effortlessly is that Congress has had an understanding with them since early eighties. They put a weak Hindu candidate to split the hindu vote while trade off the muslim vote in rest of the districts. It was actually indira gandhi who rehabilitated and gave a platform to the senior owaisi, the former razakar.

        Still your sentence about the clamor for muslim dominated Hyderabad makes no sense. If there was any development in Hyderabad, that effort came from Telugu people, not these moslems. If there are any jobs for you tamilians or hindi fellows in hyderabad it is because of the investment brought by Kamma, Reddy, Raju, Kapu communities from all over the state. Not by your local paan chewing lazy-ass local moslem and his nawabi habits.

        All the areas that have developed high tech industry have primarily hindu presence or to be more specific, those folks who moved in from Guntur, Godavari districts. It is is this industry & effort that is becoming a bone of contention. Not about the moslem hyderabad.

        So where exactly do you see the clamor for the moslem areas? I would love to know.

      • senthil says:

        Even if MIM wins and control hyderabad, it cannot control the telengana state polity.. whereas, in united andhras, the four regions are balanced out, and in that the Muslims excercise greater control by shifting their bloc votes..

  11. vyas says:

    // If you want to write about Andhra, fine, but at least learn to spell the key terms right. Telangana, Seema, Andhra.//

    Zed – What are you trying to achieve by exposing silly things like spelling mistakes? I thought you were one of the sensible bloggers in this forum but you are proving to be otherwise.

    • Zed says:

      Vyas,
      Asking for consideration in spelling is not silly. It is good manners. When you write about an emotive topic, at the very least you should show some consideration, some level of understanding.
      If not, it is better not to write at all.
      If yes, taking that little bit of effort to get the proper names right shows that the author at least cares about what he is talking about.

      There were not one or two places where Telangana and Seema were spelled wrong, it was all over the essay. The sensible thing is to point it out and let the author decide for himself if he is going to show any consideration. Looks like he did, so we know he understands my point!

      Too bad you look at it as “exposing” while I look at it as a watermark to see where the author stands.

  12. Zed says:

    Senthil,
    “I have seen these dhesams in copper plate inscriptions.. i dont know if any online version is there..
    I write my posts based on knowledge i gathered from various sources.. I focus on understanding rather than proving facts..

    Do you think all those dhesams i mentioned did not exist in the past?”

    I agree with you that there were deshams in the past. However I question how you came up with the number of those and even more importantly, question how you can include Seema, Telangana and Andhra as separate deshams. This split is only 500 something years old.
    According to Telugu people, there is only one desham and it is Andhra desham. There were many sub-deshams inside it carved out by politics & kinds. Eg. Nellore, Vengi, Velanadu etc. But the reason why empires like Kakatiya are held in reverence is that they unified Telugu people.

    Even when we had smaller kingdoms, it never interfered with people and talent movement. But that broke with the moslems and nawabs. Their period saw a huge exodus of some skilled people out of Hyderabad and into Andhra and Maratha areas (around Pune and Nagpur). For example the forefathers of folks like Dr. Hedgewar or Pramod Mahajan were Telugu refugees from the depradations of the nawabs and were welcomed into neighboring maratha areas.

    So you taking of the deshams concept and superimposing it on a very recent split in Andhra Desham is either very immature or very dangerous. You can make an argument for Venginadu, for Nellore etc. but not for something that is only about 500 years old and was a result of nawabs and british trading and ceding to each other.

    • senthil says:

      @Zed,

      /** According to Telugu people, there is only one desham and it is Andhra desham. **/

      Which telugu people? That is very important..

      For eg, here in tamilnadu, there are many who propogate about Tamil Race.. do you believe in that, just bcoz all people in TN speak tamil?

      The One Telugu dhesam is an idea of linguistic chauvinists.. It is they who distort history (like kakatiyas united whole telugu people) to manipulate their ideology..

      /** There were many sub-deshams inside it carved out by politics & kinds. Eg. Nellore, Vengi, Velanadu etc. **/

      Nellore, vengi, velanadu are sub-divisions within dhesam.. For eg, the North Tamilnadu comprises of 24 Nadu, and 79 Koattams.. (eg: Valluvar Kottam, Puzhal Kottam etc)..

      /** Even when we had smaller kingdoms, it never interfered with people and talent movement. **/

      you are thinking from corporate perspective.. The term “Talent Movement” is highly misleading..

      /** So you taking of the deshams concept and superimposing it on a very recent split in Andhra Desham is either very immature or very dangerous.
      **/

      Your theory of recent split is itself based on your assumption that whole telugu dhesam is ONE.. i am challenging that.. Because this is a Tribal Perspective, with an assumption that whole andhra is ONE tribal group..

      Btw, how does my view be dangerous??

      • Zed says:

        Funny, you never list out the so-called deshams and when I do that for you, you start calling them sub-divisions.
        There is a latent sub-nationalism among Telugu people, you can deny it all you want. But when you have a bunch of pissed off Telugu people on both sides once the bifurcation becomes a reality, you better run for cover. There is already a lot of talk of this being gamed in by tamilians.
        When time comes for Telangana to pay for the new Andhra capital (which is normal in a state split), when there are river water disputes, when you have people being forced to move against their will, you will feel the effect. You and your mythical deshams that you never bother to list.
        Your superimposition of these deshams on a very emotive topic is playing with fire.

      • senthil says:

        @Zed,

        On one hand you accept that there were our dhesams existed.. and now you are again reverting back to your old stance, that the 56 dhesams are mythical, just bcoz i did not list down..

        I have explained you the dhesam which telengana belonged to.. and the uttara andhra is unambigously the kalinga dhesam.. i challenge you to deny both..

        I will NOT list down all those 56 dhesams for now, even though i have the list (for obvious reasons) .. i will focus on 4 cultural regions of andhra alone..

        The integration of telengana with united andhra was opposed right from the starting itself, and another commenter @kedar has explained this.. you did not answer him too..

    • senthil says:

      My analysis of andhra..

      The telengana region is the core of Kakatyas.. the Uttara Andhra belongs to kalinga dhesam.. (hope u cannot deny this)..

      Out of the other two regions, the coastal andhra is of satavahanas.. i am not sure about rayalaseema.. (May be chalukyas )..

      Any way.. people themselves has asserted their separate identities.. so our talk of ONE United Andhra gets nullified..

  13. Surya Ramachandran says:

    The separate state for Telengana is unlike the demand for Kongu Nadu. While the latter is due to culturally reason, the former is to loot the Andhra people. The idiots who want separate Telengana is actually for ONLY Hyderabad, not for culture. And as Zed has mentioned previously, it is the native Andhra people who have worked assiduously for it. KCR and other rowdies want to just sit on top of the development. I have found so many hard working Andhra people, but Telengana people in my opinion rarely work, or work much lesser than the Andhra counterparts.

    • kedar says:

      @surya: “idiots” eh?? sure… but you still havent answered certain key questions:

      1) Why did Andhra State (formed in 1953) want the merger with Hyderabad state if they had the capital and funds when the Hyderabad State (liberated from Nizam in 1948) was not at all keen on the merger? They could have developed their own bigger-better capital.

      2) How do you explain the 1969 Telangana agitation where more than 300 youth were killed in police firing when there was no IT, no real-estate, no jobs then.
      ———————————————————————————————————–
      I have done an analysis on how Telangana people perceive those of Andhra and vice-versa. These may or may not be true, but this is the result of 25-years of first hand experiences of how each perceives the other:

      To Andhra people, Telangana people are: 1) stupid/naive, 2) lazy, 3) drunkards, 4) unambitious, 5) uncultured/boorish.
      To Telangana people, Andhra people are: 1) cunning, 2) corrupt, 3) money-minded, 4) value telugu-ness more than hindu-ness, 5) prone to conversion to other faiths, 6) have extreme fascination with movies/take fan-following of movie heroes to irrational extremes

      Regardless of whether these are true are not, the accusations on the people of Andhra in the minds of Telangana people are pretty serious when compared to the opposite. Of course, These are just perceptions. I am not asking anyone to prove me right or wrong. But it is definitely worthwhile for both sides (esp. the Andhra people) to do some soul-searching / atma-avalokanam.

      • senthil says:

        @kedar,

        This is very true.. I had a talk with one andhra guy working in tamilnadu.. i casually asked him about telangana struggle.. he said that telengana people are very lazy fellows, without any ambition.. they would be content just with a pune job and wont attempt in advancing further for promotion ..

        The cultural difference is extremely wide and naked..

        and look at why people of rayalaseema formed their own association?

    • senthil says:

      /** And as Zed has mentioned previously, it is the native Andhra people who have worked assiduously for it. KCR and other rowdies want to just sit on top of the development.
      **/

      If people of Andrha and Seema were that much hard working, they could have put these hard works to develop their own region? Why did they leave their home land and come to Hyderabad, which belongs to Telengana people?

      It is a question of rights..

      Suppose, if you buy a plot of land, and i go and build a house, and claim ownership, will you accept it?

      • Zed says:

        They came to Hyderabad because it was the capital city of their state. It was not a huge city then, it was actually a piss poor city with very little infrastructure for common people.
        And just to be clear, the city of Hyderabad did not belong to Telangana people, it belonged to the nawabs and the Telangana people were there to serve them as 2nd class citizens. They were not allowed to write in their language, even today you will find a lot of old folks who can read freaking urdu but not Telugu. Heck, even their marriages were not recognized by the government under the qazis. For you to say that Hyderabad belonged to Telangana people 60 years later is height of stupidity.

        If instead Kurnool was made the capital, it would have been an even bigger city than Hyd today. The city of Hyd was made capital as a gesture of goodwill to Telangana folks who suffered so much.

        Blaming common people who moved for opportunities…and who actually made the city what it is today is and then asking them to leave is the height of stupidity. Kind of like, burning your own house because your brother is doing a little better for himself.
        Does this come from your Jati philosophy too? If so, I have to say, I started with a lot of sympathy for your position but now it looks like nothing different from that of the Doras and apartheid.
        While i am a supporter of the Jati system as opposed to democracy, I have to say it is people like you who are purportedly pro-Jati wrecking the position from within, like a termite. We can deal with enemies, but it is ‘friends’ like you that cause the most damage.

  14. Surya Ramachandran says:

    Decentralization to a large scale is a pathetic idea. It is well known that once a multiple set of people have powers, to solve their mutual jealously they resort to talking help from violent counter-parts like British and the Muslims. Here is an example..

    King Maravarman Kulasekhara Pandyan (1268 – 1310) had two sons Jatavarman Sundara Pandyan and Jatavarman Veera Pandyan. The elder son, Sundara Pandyan, was by the king’s wife and the younger, Veera Pandyan, was by a mistress. Contrary to tradition, the king proclaimed that the younger son would succeed him. This enraged Sundara Pandyan. He killed the father and became king in 1310. Some local chieftains in the kingdom swore allegiance to the younger brother Veera Pandian and a civil war broke out. Sundara Pandyan was defeated and he fled the country. He sought help from the far off northern ruler Sultan Ala-ud-din Khilji who was ruling much of northern India from Delhi. At that time, his army under General Malik Kafur was in the south at Dvarasamudra (far to the north of Tamil Nadu). Khilji agreed to help Sundara Pandyan and ordered Malik Kafur’s army to march to Tamil Nadu. With Sundara Pandyan’s assistance, this Muslim army from the north entered Tamil Nadu in 1311. Kafur and his troops created mayhem in the area for a full year, looting and pillaging, finally carrying an immense treasure on 312 elephants, 20,000 horses and 10 crore gold coins.

    • senthil says:

      I think, this is a cooked up story.. can you pls provide the proof?

    • senthil says:

      /** Decentralization to a large scale is a pathetic idea. It is well known that once a multiple set of people have powers, to solve their mutual jealously they resort to talking help from violent counter-parts like British and the Muslims
      **/

      You are confusing with state creation, with historical issues.. are you saying that new cultural states may join pakistan?

  15. kedar says:

    senthil:
    I know you are making a bigger point, but my point is this:

    Telangana issue is not about dividing a state into two. It is about making amends to the blunder of 1956 merger. The merger of Hyderabad and Andhra States was unconstitutional and unfair. It was unilaterally implemented according to the wishes of only of the two parties involved. So, this merger needs to be declared illegitimate and annulled without any further arguments.

    If Andhra people say that all this Telangana issue is only for Hyderabad, they also did EXACTLY THE SAME THING in 1956!! The Andhra State did not have a capital at all. They were running the assembly and secretariat out of tents like bedouin tribesmen of Arabian desert. They were in a really pathetic situation. They desperately wanted to lay their hands on Hyderabad. They didnt care to ask Hyderabad state about this. There was no referendum in Hyderabad state regarding the merger. All of a sudden, one fine day, we all woke up in an artificially created state called Andhra Pradesh. Hence, their own bad karma is now coming back to bite them.

  16. poovannan says:

    @the 56 or 500 odd desams where formed out of integration of various groups and not by god who selected a specific group of people for specific areas.
    The trouble is with the understanding of mughals as invaders but the ones who invaded before as indigenous.The country is a mixture of all groups over a period of thousands of years and various attempts have been made to integrate people.religion/caste/language etc are various attempts in uniting people and language has proved to be more successful in even breaking dictator ruled country formed on the basis of religion-pakistan.
    The main trouble for telugu people are not tamils as @zed wants us to beleive but their failure to create a pantelugu identity and maintain distinct zonal divisions even after unification.Unlike andhra tamilnadu regions have different dominant castes in different zones and there is no demand for chennai as the supporters of kongunadu or south tamilnadu want to develop kovai and madurai as their new capitals and it should have been cakewalk for protogonists of separate state but they have little support from people in their own areas.There have been no protests by people in chennai on jobs and seats being cornered by those from south or kovai and tamils/telugus/mallus who came from outside have got easily amalgamated with the locals and its impossible now to distinguish them as a separate group.I am surprised at the presence of telengana and andhra govt employees association etc which makes them easily identifiable and openly divisive
    Telugu people own maximum land/industries in chennai and kovai and saurashtra speaking saurashtrians are a powerful bloc in madurai.They have their presence in all political parties and even run own political parties like vaiko led MDMK or vijaykanth led DMDK.

    • senthil says:

      /** @the 56 or 500 odd desams where formed out of integration of various groups and not by god who selected a specific group of people for specific areas.
      **/

      Give proof for your claim.. you cannot repeat your imagined story everytime..

      /**
      The trouble is with the understanding of mughals as invaders but the ones who invaded before as indigenous.The country is a mixture of all groups over a period of thousands of years and various attempts have been made to integrate people
      **/

      Again the propoganda of romila thapar kind of hi-Storians.. the invaders (like sakas, huns, kushanas) were always driven out right from ancient days.. there is clear identification of Bharathiyas and Mlechas..

      Urban people are totally brainwashed in to colonial propoganda.. the urban system they live in is an economic brother.. so they will always think that india was land of invaders.. Its like a prostitute thinking that all women are like her..

      • poovannan says:

        Your anger against commercial sex workers is amusing as its you who have the all men and women think the same for thousands of years and where contended with their caste based professions/status except for a negligible few and not those who support the right of individuals/communities to cross barriers imposed on them on the basis of gender/varna/religion etc
        The use of urban-village as no meaning as people against varna/varna based professions/gender bias exist in both and i am yet to see a village barber or washerman or farm labourer who doesnt want his son.daughter to become a teacher or doctor or clerk leaving their professions.The rich landlord and the pandit of the village temple may want his son to follow their footsteps but not the farm labourers/small farmers/working class
        India is mixed due to various invasions/migrations and the world doesnt become blind when one closes his eyes and says that there exist pure indigenous people in this country

      • senthil says:

        @poovannan,

        You did not answer my question.. your fundamental logic that india is land of invaders itself is utter bullshit, which you never were able to prove.. and all your other rantings are based on this fundamental flawed logic..

  17. poovannan says:

    when you accept people who have a different gothra from what you have as a koottam as one amongst you what prevents you from accepting a muhammed or peter or sikh who are from the same area but opted for a different god like you who have fallen for rituals/system of rishigothra men who came few hundred years back(the gothras of brahmins remain the same across the country including those who came as refugees from afghanistan and it doesnt require a romila thapar to ask how a kashmiri kaul or a punjabi brahmin or chaturvedi and a iyengar share the same gothra and refuse marriage in the same gothra because they consider themselves as descendants of the same.How is it possible for existence of same gothra across the country without migration)
    Democracy gives the power to decide what people want and its the majority who vote for leaders who want people to cross caste barriers when it comes to professions or spouses.There exists countries in this world where people vote or doesnt revolt against rulers who prohibit any deviation from religious preachings while here people vote mostly for leaders who advocate for breaking the stranglehold of varna

    • senthil says:

      the democracy is one evil and poisonous system, that has destroyed the society.. democracy is discriminative, destrcutive, and oppressive by design.. because at any point of time, it forces 51% of the people to oppress 49% of the other.. it is always divisive, and makes majority people suppress minority..

      The current telengana struggle is a best example on how democracy enabled people of andhra and Seema oppress the people of telengana..

      • Zed says:

        Don’t you think the word ‘oppress’ is a little out of place here? If the people of Telangana were oppressed, it wad done by the nawabs and the Doras. All that the folks from the rest of the state did was come in and help develop the capital city & improve economy.
        Calling the people from rest of the state as oppressors devalues your positions…actually your picking up of this topic is actually hurting your position on Jatis and democracy. Talk about cutting yourself off at your knees!

        If there is one example that can be given of the oppressive nature of the Jati system in its worst form, it will be found in Telangana. As a Jati defender, at the very least you need to acknowledge that, and offer what your system can do to avoid such a situation in future. You cannot wipe away recent memories.

        As for making fun of people from Telangana, are you going to ask for division based on some jokes? Grow up and be a man. We always make jokes about people from Godavari districts and Tenali in my household, in presence of people from those places. It is a joke, a sense of humor we have among ourselves. To take that as an example is absolutely childish. On the other hand, the jokes that the nawabis had for the people of Telangana were very derogatory and filthy. Funny nobody talks about that now!

      • senthil says:

        /** All that the folks from the rest of the state did was come in and help develop the capital city & improve economy.
        **/

        How pleasant you want to project.. did the telengana people invite these folks to develop their area?

        the truth is that telengana was merged to andhra against the wishes of the people.. and hyderabad was chosen as capital, because all those folks who established themselves under colonial economy want an instant ready made infrastructure available to continue their colonial business..

        The administration and beurocracy of the new united andhra state formed was occupied by the Officers of andhra and Seema.. the economy was occupied by the businessmen of andhra and Seema.. The local political power of telengana was systematiallly destroyed by this new colonisers under the guise of eradicating fuedalism as though capitalism they imposed is utopian nobel one..

        Even now you are raking up jathi oppression, when the larger issue is the colonisation of telengana by colonial businessmen of andhra and seema.. (The traditional vysyas of andhra and seema did not have any space in this)..

      • ujcricket says:

        on that i just want to quote Mahatma Gnadhi ,
        “In the true democracy of India the unit is the village, …. True democracy cannot be worked by twenty men sitting at the centre. It has to be worked from below by the people of every village.”
        democracy requires participation of each and every men and women. we should not choose our leaders, we are the leaders, we need to choose our true representative. we need more decentralization but not by creating numerous states but by giving more powers to smaller units within the states.

        • senthil says:

          Again you are obsessed with gandhi and other personalities.. focus on pre-british history, and the native administrative structure..

          • utkarsh says:

            “pre- british history” , “ancient history”(u mentioned this in a rply to my previous comment). do u understand brother what u r talking about. the demographics have changed , people have different views now. there was no democracy in ancient India. do u want us to go back in times of kingdoms. i’m not saying that kingdoms were good or bad. but do u want that. we need to make decisions based on present situation and on what vision for India’s future we have.

          • senthil says:

            /** the demographics have changed , people have different views now. **/

            So what.. does history change with people’s views? or does history change bcoz of demographics change? and did you study about which are the places demographics changed and what level of change happened?

            /** there was no democracy in ancient India. do u want us to go back in times of kingdoms. i’m not saying that kingdoms were good or bad. but do u want that. we need to make decisions based on present situation and on what vision for India’s future we have.
            **/

            Yes.. pls tell me why cant we have our dhesams back? why should we accept a democracy which was imposed by colonial britishers? and why should we accept the current form of democracy?

            Any decision that we make should be based on sound and solid understanding of our history.. without that, how can you take a decision at all? the India of today is born out of Colonial Rape, and has no relation to our civilizational bharath.. we should work for bharath’s future, and NOT the future of this illegitimate entity called “India”..

            If you dont understand the diff b/w the westernised capitalistic india and the traditional dharmic bharath, that’s not my problem.. i am only explaining the reality based on the history..

    • Surya Ramachandran says:

      It is because of democracy you have TONS of the minority (means Muslim/Christain) appeasemnent tactics.

      • When the Majority does not unite and is split based on castes, you will have politicians like Sonia and Obama appeasing the minorities who vote en bloc . You won’t see lot of minority appeasement tactics in other democracies like Germany, France, Australia etc.

      • senthil says:

        there is no such thing called majority.. every jathi is a minority here.. it is the political system that is at fault here..

  18. Surya Ramachandran says:

    KCR never managed to win any election in Telengana. It is just politics of Andhra. TRS has been consistantly loosing, which means people in Telengana never gave a enthu about having separate Telengana. There will always be politically motivated people who are in indoctriened, just like LTTE, or the people who closed schools in TN recently using the Tamil language fanaticism

    • senthil says:

      KCR may not have won election.. but the demand came from all political parties.. right

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        Demand came from political parties which have no interest in the state. Congress was always opposed to Telengana, otherwise it would have separated in 1960 itself. BJP has no say in Andhra poltiics. There has been no concensus that Telengana people need a separate state. Did you keep atleast a separate election/ survey among the panchayats for this.

      • senthil says:

        Did any MLA or MP across parties from telengana oppose separate telengana movement?

  19. Surya Ramachandran says:

    /** I will NOT list down all those 56 dhesams for now, even though i have the list (for obvious reasons) **/
    What are the obvious reasons ? The desams have already been listed, and an another set of 56 of the from wiki source has already been given in the previous posts.

    • senthil says:

      the obvious reason is that it will distract the discussion.. as you said, this 56 dhesams are already listed down, and i need not list down it again here..

    • Zed says:

      I searched this thread and do not find the wiki sources.
      Does it kill you guys to give me a list of the deshams? It is pertinent to the discussion because Senthil was the one who brought it up. Not me.
      All I am asking is to show me the list or at the very least show me Telangana as one of the ancient deshams.
      And that list better not be the same one as Outlook magazine ones, because I know where that list comes from…. somebody’s ass.

  20. Zed says:

    Senthil,
    “Even now you are raking up jathi oppression, when the larger issue is the colonisation of telengana by colonial businessmen of andhra and seema.. (The traditional vysyas of andhra and seema did not have any space in this)..”

    You obviously have no clue about the dogged and brutal war waged against the nawabis and Doras in Telangana areas in 40′s and 50′s. It is a shame you refuse to acknowledge this naked Jati based violence. There is a wealth of literature out there, from many perspectives and mostly in Telugu on how life was for 80% of people in Telangana in those days. I gave you some snippets of life then. THIS is the reason why Telangana was/is backward. They got raped horribly in name of islam and Jati for 500 years. And you claim I am “raking” up a make believe oppression! And you think the larger issue is the so-called colonization! I mean, seriously! The nizam of hyderabad became the richest man in the world because like a parasite he was leeching off the rest of the mostly Telugu people in association with Doras. Most people barely had enough to eat but had to pay very high taxes. And this is your Jati based utopia?

    Like I said before, you are hurting your own purported cause and making us all look like supporters of the nawabs.

    If you believe that the life was awesome for most people under the nawabs and Doras, and that is an example of your Jati based society, please state so. Because the Jati based society I though you were advocating was totally something else where each Jati had its independence, not being subservient to the Doras and nawabis.

    • zorro says:

      very accurate analysis. In fact all places in the world after a long spell of muzzie rule meant stagnation and chaos still felt to this dy.

  21. Zed says:

    Senthil,
    “pls wait for my next article, which will detail all these dhesams.. for now lets stick to telengana issue ..”

    Fair enough. I will wait for the list.

  22. “there is no such thing called majority.. every jathi is a minority here.. it is the political system that is at fault here..”

    When Hindus who are 75% + do not unite as one religious group and are split based on castes and the religious minorities are united, appeasement is what you get. In no other country will you see pseudo secularism to this extent. The sole reason is caste politics.

  23. Surya Ramachandran says:

    /** the caste politics is because of this colonial identity and the political system based on it **/
    So how are you going to counter it? Continue the secular parties to loot ? When @indian_first asks Hindus to unite, he does not ask Hindus to be homogeneous. He is asking diverse Hindu castes to unite against Christian Imperialism and Islamic Fundamentalism ? Why is this so impossible in the caste setup. This only show lack of unity in the caste system itself. (Again unity != uniformity)

    • senthil says:

      /** Why is this so impossible in the caste setup. This only show lack of unity in the caste system itself. (Again unity != uniformity)
      **/

      How can you unite jathis by hating and abusing them? You have seen @IndianFirst displaying extreme hostility towards jathi setup.. and inspite of all these brutal attacks and invasion, the jathi setup is united.. Imagine, if the urban society is subjected to such divisive and brutal policies that traditional jathi based society faced? They will be killing each other..

      The reason why we are NOT able to unite our people is because we are all mentally hostile to its basic structure.. If the jathi setup could withstand such hostile attacks (intellectual and physical) for such long years, it means it is more resilient and strong.. that means, if we understand and acknowledge our traditional social structure, we can easily unite them and make our hindu society strong..

      • “The reason why we are NOT able to unite our people is because we are all mentally hostile to its basic structure.. ”

        It’s the other way around.. when you have a bigger community (Hindus) broken down into multiple castes each taking care of its own interest, the minorities gain by uniting politically. That’s when the frustration with castes increases. When people want their caste identity and other benefits to be strengthened, it always ends up as a competition against fellow Hindus in other castes and not against Christians or Muslims..

        “if we understand and acknowledge our traditional social structure, we can easily unite them and make our hindu society strong..”

        Again, you are comparing a system existed 2000 years ago with today’s setup. You yourself had said that lower castes from one village were protected from exploitation by the people from nearby villages. This itself shows that unity under a single identity of ‘Hindus’ is difficult in the caste system because of conflicts of interest. The political parties exploit this and form vote banks out of each caste claiming to work for them. When the DK groups started their campaign, the caste wallahs should have reacted to counter their propaganda by relaxing the norms and made caste less rigid and accommodative. When Rajaji spoke about ‘kulakalvi’, was it flexible enough to allow less privileged people also to join the system and grow ?

        No, in this blog itself we are seeing justification for a Janitor’s son only becoming a Janitor and questions are being asked why should he aspire to be a scientist. If the casteists are so stubborn in their stand and refuse to accommodate the aspirations of millions of people, the less privileged had no choice to trust the DK groups who spoke for them at least for name sake. Now, we have a divided society where each street in the village has a direct conflict of interest with the people living only 500 meters away. They don’t consider the others as Hindus or even neighbours but as ‘people of X caste’. This has serious ramifications politically. The ‘Hindu’ identity is suppresses by the ‘caste’ identity except in rare cases like Ayodhya and Gujarat.

        The question is “Do Hindus have to exhibit their Hindu identity only in times like Ayodhya when there is a serious threat to the ‘Hinduness’ ? What prevents them from doing the same in normal times ? Why can’t the vanniyars, vellalars, parayars, nadars etc. unite as ‘Hindus’ at least during elections ? Why is there a leader exploiting each of these communities preventing them from uniting ? Did people like Ramadoss and other caste leaders ever voice their opinion on matters like Ram Setu, Relieving Temple control from state, minority appeasement etc. ? Never. They always speak against Dalits and other castes who come under the Hindu fold. As caste continues to wreak havoc in the Hindu society, the minorities are having a merry time uniting politically and getting good representation.

        • swami says:

          If we look the current situation from a political lense, I do agree that this is happening

        • Surya Ramachandran says:

          @Senthil,
          Who will you vote for Modi in the next elections ? Provide reasons :)

        • senthil says:

          Unless you are able to understand what i am saying, there is no use in arguing endlessly..

          In jathi setup, there is only co-operation and mutual adjustment b/w castes and NO competition.. The Only competition is the race for power, which is NOT because of jathi, but because of the EVIL ALIEN democratic system.. Your bloody urban capitalistic system is the root cause of all problems today..

  24. Surya Ramachandran says:

    /** You are confusing with state creation, with historical issues.. are you saying that new cultural states may join pakistan?
    **/
    They will tell that. NOW TRS leader, have clearly told WE ARE NOT INDIANS. They have clearly told that their territory was usurped by Sardar Patel, which means they like the idea of being under the Nizams. This proves to death that Telenganana people are more close to Hindutva, if that were true – Telengana would have been a BJP vote bank.. The TRS reality is that love to be subservient to Muslims.

  25. LakshmanPST says:

    This is for you Senthil… I was late by one month to reply to you… Better late than never…
    You lack some basic knowledge about Andhra culture…
    Next time, please don’t write ill-informed articles about things you do have much idea about…

    http://lakshmanpst.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/reply-to-senthil-why-telangana-is-a-bad-idea/

  26. Telengana used to be the part of PESHWA EMPIRE, with north karnatak and some part of maharashtra with them. Later on, it became part of andhra empire, and andhra people impoverished TELENGANA.

  27. Rodriguez says:

    Didn’t see bigger idiot than you Mr. Senthil.

  28. ujcricket says:

    this looks more like returning to colonial India.
    huge mistakes in map : why only jammu is seperated from kashmir. ladakh was always a seperate region. kashmir is only the valley. jammu & kashmir is a state created by britishers by joining over 20 different ‘ riyasat ‘ in 1815.
    second mistake is , dividing rajasthan, it is probably the oldest region in India which has remained united for such a long time. it was one rajputana confederation. in 7th -8th century when the arabs attacked on sindh , these rajput states were united and threw the arabs out of India. this confederation took on many foreign invaders.
    if this map ever become true, than it will be final nail in the coffin of independent India. creating different states, just on the basis of ethnicity, language doesn’t help anyone. creation of new states should be done after proper analysis with a scientific approach and assuring that whether or not the new state will be able to survive independently on not. without proper feasibility on economic and social terms it will create only nuance and not development.

    • senthil says:

      The map is taken from the outlook article… it has some deficiencies.. but your assumption that current india is independant is wrong..

      My stance is “India itself is a Colonial Entity”.. the current India is same as the colonial india..

      Rajasthan is NOT a single dhesam.. the marwar region is separate dhesam..

      • utkarsh says:

        see my friend , i don’t understand what this “dhesam” means. but i have enough knowledge about history of rajasthan to defend my views. the geographic region of rajasthan was under the rule of gurjars-parihars and other rajput kingdoms since early middle ages. these kingdoms made a union to defend their interests from outsiders. and bcoz of this political unity they were able to defend India from foreign invaders. even in british period these kingdoms were reffered as rajputana. however this doesn’t make them a colonial entity as there existence as a separate entity is much older than the british era. i recommend u to read this book : annals and antiquities of rajasthan.

        • nyaya says:

          Absolutely correct. Culturally united Rajasthanis and Rajput Kings gave arab invaders sound thrashing in 700-800 A.D. Even threw them out of Sindh and across the Indus (Battle of Rajasthan)–stupid pakistanis forget this or lie. It took 500 years before turks were able to push into India.

          Afterwards, Shahi dynasty of Kabul called for help from both south and north against Ghazni, even took war to Afghanistan (almost won at battle of laghman). Chalukya empire contingents from South were sent to defend Gujarat. Great Rajput confederacy assembled, then defeated and ended Ghaznavid raids when they surrounded and wiped out Mahmud Ghazni’s nephew Salar Masud at Battle of Bahraich. They took no quarter–that is how to fight jehadis. Stupid pseudo sec bollywoodized hindus because of urdu-sufi nonsense in bahraich go to dargah of this same crazy jehadi that wanted to conquer us but was killed by Rajas and Rais. That is importance of our sanskruti. We have enough brahmins and wannabe brahmins. We need kshatriyas–real kshatriyas and baudhik kshatriyas.

          Cultural unity of India and within India’s cultural regions (i.e. Rajasthan, Andhra, etc) is what will give security. Unity doesn’t mean uniformity. Rajasthan has its traditions, so does Andhra, etc. But there is more in common between a hindu Rajasthani and hindu Andhra than there is with a jehadi zombie who has lost his mind and forgotten his ancestors. Disunited, they can play us against each other (i.e. ganga yamuna “tehzeeb”, north vs. south). United, a Rajasthani, an Andhra, a Punjabi, etc can protect our women of all regions and castes. Just google tapan ghosh and “hindu samhati” to read what is already happening to hindu girls–not just in Bangladesh–but West Bengal itself…

        • senthil says:

          @utkarsh,

          /** i don’t understand what this “dhesam” means. but i have enough knowledge about history of rajasthan to defend my views
          **/

          THis is ironical.. if you dont know what “dhesam” means, how can you claim to have knowledge about history of rajasthan? whatever the history you know, it is thru books and are colonial narrations.. you cannot claim that colonial narration as original history..

          Dhesam has two components.. 1. Geography 2. Society.. i have studied both the geography and social fabric of rajasthan, as existing on those days.. so the history i understand is based on how the dhesams were built and by whom..
          but most Hindutva brigade see history ONLY based on how they fought against muslim invaders.. this is pathetic mindset, which i am opposing at many levels.. this kind of mindset only indicates that we have lost that originality..

          /** these kingdoms made a union to defend their interests from outsiders. and bcoz of this political unity they were able to defend India from foreign invaders.
          **/

          You yourself accepted that there are many rajput kingdoms before muslims and they united during muslim invasion.. this only vindicates my point..

          Secondly, i can explain the details behind how these kingdoms united together, and how they fought together, and what role did gurjars and rajputs had in this fight.. i bet, you dont know any of these.. all that you want is a mental satisfaction that we fought against muslims.. this is NOT a right way to understand our history..

  29. senthil says:

    I recently found out this link, which describes the dhesams described in mahabharatha (Bhisma parva – 6:9)

    Ancient kingdoms – http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/kingdom-list

    Kalinga Dhesam – http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/kalinga

    andhra – http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/andhra

    Telinga Dhesam – http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/telinga

  30. nyaya says:

    I have posted links here for readers and senthil to consider. I assume links are held up for moderator to review. But in case they don’t go through for some reason, additional factors for Telangana supporters to remember:

    1. India of today not the same as 1000 years ago, must consider context (i.e. pakistan, bangladesh, owaisi)
    2. Owaisis who give anti-hindu hate speeches are descendants of razakars who killed and raped hindus during 1948 and before. They have called for Urdu hyderabad state to emerge from Telangana. When it became obvious, they changed their public position, while encouraging jehadi rohingya immigration to hyderabad .

    3.Lakshman above has provided detailed rebuttal to senthil. All senthil has done is given wiki map and wiki links. Even LKG students will laugh if anyone gives wikipedia as proof. There is no pauranic telangana/telangi desam–there is only andhra tribe and andhra desam. Even telugu was called andhra bhasha at one point.
    4. Linguistic states are good idea because they protect language culture. If andhra and tamil nadu are both divided up as senthil advocates, then hindu telugu and tamil speakers will see strength divided–easier for missionaries and cong madanis to convert. See melvisharam case. He is not perfect, but Subramanian Swamy at least fought for melvisharam hindus who were being oppressed by jehadis.

    5. In order to counter merger movement between hyderabad and coastal andhra, nizams used to prop up obscurantists. An obscurantist is an overly rigid, overly opinionated person who claims to speak for all hindus and imposes his own tunnel vision view, harming his people in the process. They misinterpret history and religion. KCR is one such person.
    6. Dividing andhra is purely political. How can adharmic government be doing service for dharma?–Senthil must reconsider any support for congress, even his fave pranab mukherjee. Congress bastion was andhra, support is gone, so they propped up telangana to get at least few seats from telangana. This will split AP hindus between hyd. owaisis and coastal evangelicals–dharma loses. Remember, Sri Krishna too would break lesser dharma to protect greater dharma–jati dharma must take back seat to dharma of protecting hindu women of all castes from brahmana to panchama. We must not focus on small picture–but big picture. Whatever his gripes against hindutva, since he is more passionate about brahmin jathis, senthil should remember that at least brahmanas are protected by hindutva types. Google zahid hamid, read what he has threatened brahmanas and specifically brahmin girls with.

    7. Is senthil advocating that north india and south india be separate? Because prime differences in culture and current friction due to persian/urdu influence in north–this is the same so-called cultural difference between telangana and andhra (couple of urdu words, couple of persianized dishes, but same language and culture). Kakatiya dynasty ruled all of Andhra even though they are from Telangana region (hanamkonda and warangal)–they still called themselves Andhradesadeeswara not Telanganadesadeeswara.
    8. Telangana is merely persianized word for Telugu speakers. It is a corruption/bastardization of Telugu as “telangi”. Does senthil support persianization over sanskrit culture (our mother sanskrit culture from north till south)?

    9.Ultimately, turushka/tajikas were able to stay in India (after being defeated repeatedly for 500 years by kshatriyas), because our big empires like Pratihara, Rashtrakuta, etc, broke up into smaller kingdoms. We need large states and big India to protect dharma. Vietnamese Gen. Giap said victory is only possible through unity–”no unity, no victory” (he defeated french and americans and gave groundwork to defeat chinese in 1979). Big states like Andhra and UP were left to prevent mini-pakistanis. Thus telangana is not just historical fraud, it is a cultural/religious danger.

    Before people give opinions they must do detailed research. Wikipedia is not “field work”.

    • vyas says:

      @nyaya,

      Pls don’t divert the focus of the topic. The issue with the maps of wikipedia is irrelevant. The basic question here is about ethnicity and differences in cultural practices/lifestyle. Senthil is not just advocating for bifurcation of Andhra Pradesh, he supports bifurcation of other states too based on historical etiquette. I welcome this move. We need as many states as possible based on this approach for bifurcation. Linguistic bifurcation has simply ruined the nation. By dividing the states further we can strengthen the local ethnic groups which is good for the nation. Pls view India from a Bharathiya perspective and not from a European colonial angle, only then you’ll understand what Senthil is trying to convey. You need to understand that by means of ethnic bifurcation of states, the evangelist groups get bifurcated too and thereby get weakened which is good for us. You need to understand that evangelists are pro linguistic. They cheat people by emotionalizing the love for language exactly like what the DK is doing with the help of missionaries. With the destruction of linguistic bifurcation, they’ll lose their base and will have to invent new strategies/methods for evangelization which will take time and by that time we can weaken them. Above all ethnic bifurcation facilitates you to maintain your unique jaathi identity instead of hiding under the shadow of political colonial identities. I believe people like you are looking forward to create a united uniform India, but we are striving to create a united diversified India.

      • nyaya says:

        Vyasa, do not misread the purpose of my comment to suit your own ends.

        Where have I said uniform India is must?

        Further, the wiki map issue is absolutely relevant because senthil himself actually gave that as proof! Is he trying educate or confuse? This is not historical etiquette, since there is no historical basis–lakshman above and vyasa 2 and zed have all disproved him–he has not given any respectable answer or proof. So bifurcation has zippo historical basis.

        Also, you cannot live in a time warp, the issues I have mentioned matter, particularly urduization of language and culture (are you in favor of that?). You have seen what happened to Kashmiri pandits in Kashmir. See this bollywood culture today–totally ignores sanskrit culture. Can you ignore that for the sake of theoretical arguments?

        Linguistic reorganization hasn’t ruined nation, congress has. Linguistic reorg has protected nation for the very reason you pointed out–it allowed unity in diversity. Tamils and Telugus no longer compete in colonial madras presidency. Gujus and Marathis no longer compete in colonial bombay presidency. People are secure in language regions which were large enough to prevent union government bullying.

        Second, love of language is the basis for cultural rejuvenation, because it encourages people too look at high culture (which has historically been nurtured by brahmanas) instead of stupid filmy degenerate nonsense. This high culture will then look at highest culture of sanskrit for inspiration (protecting our dharma in the process). UP has multiple dialects as does Rajasthan and MP. Those cultures absolutely have to be revived at grassroots level. But dividing up UP into four states will create monster in Western UP (where we just had jehadi financed major riots). Womenfolk will have no safety–already don’t in some areas. By breaking these up, you allow urduization to strengthen–see, you have no response to my point about owaisis demanding urdu as first language of Telangana (is this your traditional bharatiya culture?).

        Third, smaller states actually hurts villages. This is because delhi sultans want smaller states because then easier to bully. Cong actually hated YSR for that reason, to do anything in AP, they had to go through him. YSR was himself evangelical villain, but telangana has only become serious possibility after he no longer was there to stop congress.

        Fourth, you need to understand that evangelists aren’t pro-linguistic, they want to coopt it. If they take the space of language which people like you and senthil reject, then they can dictate what it actually is. This is precisely what Rajiv Malhotra has said. If we don’t learn and protect our languages, these outsiders will tell our people what it is and de-sanskritize–that is the goal that you don’t see due to tunnel vision. You two are focused only on jati and alleged “desam”–which you get wrong, but miss varsha, khanda, and bhoomi. This is a global kurukshetra–you can’t be selfish and have only tunnel vision.

        Jnana is not just for navel gazing, it is meant to be applied (that is buddhi, how to use, when to use, and when not to use). Both you and senthil need to understand that difference and stop calling everybody who disagrees as “non-bharatiya” and “european colonial”. Remember there is sanatana dharma and yuga dharma. We must look at the context, because dharma itself is context sensitive.

        You two seem to have one-size fits all, obscurantist time warp view of cultural geography that will actually hurt dharma rather than helping it.

      • nyaya says:

        “the evangelist groups get bifurcated too and thereby get weakened which is good for us.

        Also, this is wrong. Smaller states mean areas where converted population already high will then have more power. Coastal andhra (like ” kanya maryam”….oh that’s right it’s fortunately still called kanyakumari) has more christians and telangana and rayalaseema have more muslims. So the net percentage in each region then favors minorities–basic maths. So coastal andhra will go to evangelicals and telangana to owaisis (that is plan).

        You have also admitted you are taking tamil nadu case and applying to all India. Remember, dravidian movement was originally targeted at all four “dravidian” south states–but anti-brahminism only truly succeeded in tamil nadu. It is because telugu brahmins, etc, have love of language that they live in better security in AP–they don’t advertise that they were from north or “aryans” as some tamil brahmins have done (obviously not all, as senthil has said).

        If you want to defeat anti-brahminis emphasize common cause of Dharma. By focusing on jatis you are practically handing over dalits to missionaries and zakir naiks. Think strategically not emotionally–what would you chose if you were a dalit reading senthil’s remarks…. Emphasize dharma (most people don’t have interest or aptitude for karma kanda anyways–so why are you worried?). Remember asuras already have mistranslated and circulated false interpretation of our shruti and smriti, so pandora’s box is already open. Our task is to defeat misinterpretation and protect dharmic civilization. When civilization is protected, then bharatadesam is protected, when desam is protected, pradesam is protected, when pradesam is protected, samskruti and dharma are protected–then you will have the safety and security needed to make your case for jati culture, etc.

        Even kautilya says give up the finger for the hand. You want to sacrifice the hand thinking it will save the finger…

  31. vyas says:

    //Linguistic reorg has protected nation for the very reason you pointed out–it allowed unity in diversity//

    If you approach diversity from a linguistic perspective, then I can’t help you.

    //Tamils and Telugus no longer compete in colonial madras presidency//

    Stop this non-sense. Tamil/Telugu doesn’t mean anything to me. It was the Europeans who taught us to look into our history through a linguistic lens. It is they who identified themselves as Latin, Greek, English etc. Our ancestors never associated language with identity. Their identities originated from their kulam/jaathi and place (desam) which put together defined their ethnicity. Language was respected no doubt but it was never considered an identity. Also like what we have today, an educated person in those days never meant one who had language reading/writing skills. It was only with the advent of the Europeans, our perception got completely changed. Frankly speaking, Chennai should belong to the Telugu speaking Nayakars. It is they who built this city. In fact the name Chennai itself comes from Chennappa Naayakkar who once owned the entire city. I’d suggest you better remove language from your mind and approach this issue.

    //Second, love of language is the basis for cultural rejuvenation, because it encourages people too look at high culture (which has historically been nurtured by brahmanas) instead of stupid filmy degenerate nonsense//

    That’s because people like you have completely hijacked culture into linguistic boundaries. It is very easy to divide people over language. Look at TamilNadu for example. Just because the language structure of south Indian languages were very different from that of the North, an entire Aryan-Dravidian divide was conceived and instilled into the minds of the people in order to divide them. I again repeat. It was the Europeans who taught us to look through our history through our languages which proved fatal to our society. The idiots in TamilNadu are projecting Raja Rajaa as a Tamil King, but he actually is a Chola King. Languages can never define your identity.

    //This high culture will then look at highest culture of sanskrit for inspiration (protecting our dharma in the process)//

    What do you mean by Sanskrit culture? Dharma is/was never language specific. Moreover dharma works at various levels. There is no ONE dharma for all kind of thing in our society. This is what distinguishes us from the West. Every ideology (communism, socialism, liberalism etc) that originated from the West in the past few hundred years only tried to create ONE unified world order and we are all victims of the same. Throw the language from the equation and then look into our past and you’ll know the truth.

    //By breaking these up, you allow urduization to strengthen–see, you have no response to my point about owaisis demanding urdu as first language of Telangana (is this your traditional bharatiya culture?).//

    Again you are looking at it from a linguistic perspective. As I mentioned above, these alien forces can be weakened and the concerned people can be united from an ethnic perspective. For example take the Naadaar community in TamilNadu. It has been heavily christianized in the past few decades. But they predominantly don’t marry outside their jaathi even if the other is a Hindu Naadar. As we can see Jaathi is much stronger than religion. We need to focus on bringing such unity among people that will have a long lasting effect. The biggest problem that I see with Muslims and Christians is that they’ve been constantly provoked to forget their ancestry and assume new religious identities based out of places outside India like Jerusalem and Mecca. Both religion and language needs to take a backseat, else it would be impossible to run a nation like India intact in the long run.

    //Third, smaller states actually hurts villages//

    You talk as if larger states help villages to thrive. Prosperity of villages does not have any relation with the size of the state. It lies with the governance model.

    //Fourth, you need to understand that evangelists aren’t pro-linguistic, they want to coopt it//

    Why? because it’s very easy to divide people using linguistics. You can project that since we speak different languages, we all are very different both culturally and racially. This is the strategy the missionaries used to convert people of India. You keep forgetting that it is in this united Andhra that almost 30% got converted to Christianity. What were you people doing then?

    //If they take the space of language which people like you and senthil reject, then they can dictate what it actually is//

    When did we say that we are rejecting languages? We are only asking you to stop looking into our history by using language as the lens. Apart from that we love our languages and we want them to thrive forever. I think there will be no second opinion about it for anyone.

    //You two are focused only on jati and alleged “desam”–which you get wrong, but miss varsha, khanda, and bhoomi//

    I doubt you hardly have any idea about the meaning of the above terms. Pls go and educate yourself about that first by reading other articles in this forum.

    //It is because telugu brahmins, etc, have love of language that they live in better security in AP–they don’t advertise that they were from north or “aryans” as some tamil brahmins have done//

    Wrong. It was only because the Andhra people never politicized their language and also they were never language chauvinists. But in TamilNadu language was used as a weapon against the people themselves. The people here were forced to be language chauvinists which created hatred among neighboring states. By the way you keep accusing me and Senthil of hating languages which is not true. We do love our language and there is no question about that.

    //Smaller states mean areas where converted population already high will then have more power//

    The question here is not about small or large. The question here is about what metrics you use to bifurcate the states.

    //You have also admitted you are taking tamil nadu case and applying to all India//

    Nope. I’m not a fool to apply the same logic to all. I’m only pointing out that linguistic division of states have completely disintegrated us in the past few decades. Our enemies are using this as a weapon against us.

    //If you want to defeat anti-brahminis emphasize common cause of Dharma. By focusing on jatis you are practically handing over dalits to missionaries and zakir naiks. Think strategically not emotionally–what would you chose if you were a dalit reading senthil’s remarks…. Emphasize dharma (most people don’t have interest or aptitude for karma kanda anyways–so why are you worried?). Remember asuras already have mistranslated and circulated false interpretation of our shruti and smriti, so pandora’s box is already open. Our task is to defeat misinterpretation and protect dharmic civilization. When civilization is protected, then bharatadesam is protected, when desam is protected, pradesam is protected, when pradesam is protected, samskruti and dharma are protected–then you will have the safety and security needed to make your case for jati culture, etc.//

    I agree with most of your comments above, but tell me one thing. We had various dharmas like Kula Dharma, Swadharma, Varna Dharma etc. Did we ever have Bhashya dharma? Dharma is purely based on action (karma) and not language. Languages can provoke you to do certain things (by means of thought process) that result in karma but by itself they cannot produce any karma. Protecting or embracing one’s language is done out of choice and affinity. I hope you understand this. Finally I’d like to say that it’s Jaathi that’s the backbone of this society. Only Jaathi has the key to answers for unity of the people across North and the South. All other identities like language, nation etc are artificial and will not have any answers for proving unity.

    • senthil says:

      @vyas,

      You have replied what i wanted to convey.. excellent one..

      /** When civilization is protected, then bharatadesam is protected, when desam is protected, pradesam is protected, when pradesam is protected, samskruti and dharma are protected–then you will have the safety and security needed to make your case for jati culture, etc
      **/

      actually what is meant by civilization here? i bet, people do not know the meaning of it, but use it in vague context..

      it is the reverse order that makes sense.. when a jathi is protected, the culture is protected.. when pradesam is protected, desm is protected.. when desams are protected, bharatha varsham are protected.. this is a bottom up approach we had for thousands of years..

      • nyaya says:

        When your enemy comes to invade and destroy your civilization ( I don’t think you know what that means) and pervert your culture, his strategy (I don’t think you know what that means) is to divide and rule. That is what Ghori did, that is what British did, that is what Evangelicals/Pakistanis are doing. By emphasizing jati dharma before sanatana dharma, you allow congress and other anti-hindu parties to divide on caste lines. MIM is already doing that with dalits (you didn’t provide answer).

        You also failed to provide proof to Zed, non wikipedia proof to vyasa 2, and point for point rebuttal to lakshman on his blog. Unless you do that, you admit ignorance of Andhra’s history and defeat.

        • senthil says:

          /** When your enemy comes to invade and destroy your civilization ( I don’t think you know what that means) and pervert your culture, his strategy (I don’t think you know what that means) is to divide and rule.
          **/

          Attack and invasion by enemy is normal.. they can WIN only when you have collapsed out of their attack.. and they have won for ever, the moment you feel, that your culture is NO more feasible and possible.. i dont give my enemy this victory, by reviving my core culture, which thrived till 1900s..

          /** That is what Ghori did, that is what British did, that is what Evangelicals/Pakistanis are doing. **/

          What has jathi dharma to do with fighting these enemies? Go and see the aachaarams of thottiya nayakkars, the people who fought against bahmani muslims, the people who recovered madurai from malikafur invasion, and the people who established the greatest and richest empire of vijayanagara..

          /** You also failed to provide proof to Zed, non wikipedia proof to vyasa 2, and point for point rebuttal to lakshman on his blog. Unless you do that, you admit ignorance of Andhra’s history and defeat.
          **/
          I have given references from mahabharatha.. there is clear mentioning of kalinga, andhra and the region in b/w as talavahanas which matches with current day telengana..

          Your united andhra becomes invalid, because of the strong proof that kalinga (uttara andhra) is a separate dhesam ..

          Also look at lakshmanan’s blog, where he mentions different jathi names, which itself denote the different cultural regions..

          • nyaya says:

            “Attack and invasion by enemy is normal.. they can WIN only when you have collapsed out of their attack..”

            That’s the problem, you don’t understand the enemy or warfare. Without understanding them or how they fight, you can’t face his attacks. That is the problem, you are doing exactly what he wants, and he is turning non-brahmins against you through language-culture warfare by saying , “see brahmins don’t respect tamil, they say they are different, they are aryans” and misinterpretation of our civilization and cultures. So how can you fight against all of them and missionaries?

            “the people who established the greatest and richest empire of vijayanagara..”

            You conveniently forget what happened to Vijayanagara…and why

            Victory doesn’t come from just fighting. any idiot can go fight and die. Indians died in heaps against turks/mughals. Do you know what Babur said? “Hindus are crassly stupid. They know how to die, but they don’t know how to fight”. He wasn’t talking about skills and karma like you and vyas, but he was talking about strategy and tactics–of which you know nothing.

            It is not just about fighting, it is about preserving (some degree) of cultural unity so that all sections are united against enemy. Do you know how Golconda sultanate was established?–They played rachakonda rajas against Vijayanagara and Warangal nayaks. They broke the unity by playing one caste against the other caste–it had nothing to do with desams and everything to do with taking advantage of caste politics.

            Same thing is happening now–what is your solution to missionaries and jehadis (MIM) playing caste politics? Answer this question

            “I have given references from mahabharatha.. there is clear mentioning of kalinga, andhra and the region in b/w as talavahanas which matches with current day telengana..”

            No you haven’t. Vyasa 2 disproved you by showing your mahabharata proof was false–no reference to telangi. Even your own source said it was “speculating” meaning of different word “talavahanas”. You also ignored fact that warangal origin kakatiyas called themselves andhradesadeeswara,

            Lakshman also gave you point for point rebuttal a month ago–still no point for point response from you. He gave you full history lesson, you did not demonstrate even basic understanding of Andhra history. Lakshman is still waiting for your response there.

            Zed asked for list of 56 desams–you gave wikipedia map which even LKG students will laugh at if you say it’s proof.

            “Also look at lakshmanan’s blog, where he mentions different jathi names, which itself denote the different cultural regions..”

            No they don’t, he already gave you rebuttal on that distraction when he said this: “Also in Andhra, not all Castes are named after regions/Deshams…
            For example, PrathamaSaakha Niyogis are different from others only because their VedaSakha is different…”

            You still failed to give him a point for point rebuttal for his entire blogpost. This is Turushka approach, throw one volley of arrows, then run away hoping enemy will forget and lose cohesion…Then come back later to declare victory…

          • nyaya says:

            “because of the strong proof that kalinga (uttara andhra) is a separate dhesam ..”

            you are absolutely wrong here. even children know that kalinga is orissa (or coastal orissa if you consider utkala separate). Even your own “wikipedia map” shows kalinga as orissa not “uttarandhra”. they speak oriya(odia) in orissa, not telugu (neither andhra nor telangana dialect). Completely different language and “desam”.

            also you still didn’t let through my links. i can also show ancient maps with NO telangana

      • nyaya says:

        “Bottom up” approach also led to last thousand years of dead brahmin men and raped/converted brahmin women and 80 million reduction in hindu population. Might want to try a new strategy (if you have any understanding of it)…

  32. nyaya says:

    “If you approach diversity from a linguistic perspective, then I can’t help you.”

    You can’t help me because you don’t use logic and fact. If you want jati and (pra) desam, you also have to consider language–can’t cover your eyes to that. If a person’s most important identity is dalit, then evangelicals will exploit by telling him brahmins oppress him. But if his most important identity is that he is a dharmik of bharat, then telugu/tamil, then dalit–then tension about humble origin automatically dissipates. He takes pride in being a hindu/dharmik indian first, then language second, and then third jati. Jati-dharm jati-karma is historically important, but when problems are global, you can’t prioritize local.

    Second, you keep missing facts-not 1000 years ago. Modern world has been opened. Pandora’s box is out. You have to deal with new situation–can’t use cookie cutter solutions from past without thinking of context.

    “Stop this non-sense. Tamil/Telugu doesn’t mean anything to me. ”

    Then you are truly blind. People don’t speak tamil and telugu? All mental telepathy? Language matters–and people have an emotional connection to it whether you want it or not.

    “Our ancestors never associated language with identity.”

    Nonsense. Kings didn’t only make inscriptions in sanskrit and prakrit. Kings also patronized individual language literature along with sanskrit. Again, you failed to answer point that Kakatiyas called themselves Andhradesadeeswara. That itself is proof of language importance.

    “Frankly speaking, Chennai should belong to the Telugu speaking Nayakars. It is they who built this city. In fact the name Chennai itself comes from Chennappa Naayakkar who once owned the entire city. ”

    No kidding! This isn’t news. Here is the difference. Telugus respected ancient Tamil claim to the land as opposed to city of Chennai, followed the national decision and moved on by investing in Hyderabad. Yes, they had initial emotional attachment–but justice prevailed.

    “That’s because people like you have completely hijacked culture into linguistic boundaries. ”

    Utter nonsense. It’s because people like you are too busy dividing people to understand the threat of persianization of our culture. That is the greater danger. Pakistanis spend day and night abusing our language and religion. just see internet. I would provide links but senthil still hasn’t let old ones through.

    Long before english speaking middle class was created in India, there were persianized turk invaders. They came and through there influence there was divergence in culture. Bollywood khans through D-company patrons perpetuate this. That’s why urdu shayaris are everywhere but no sanskrit slokas. Youth then lose pride and think–”yes, mughals gave us culture, food, etc. We were nothing before that”. This is the message zakir naiks spread to people–so cultural pride matters (language is a subset of that, whether its sanskrit at national, or tamil/telugu at state level). If youth thinks nothing to be proud about, he or she will see no problem to marry turushka or mleccha, since then they will be part of “more attractive culture”. This is worse problem.

    Sanskrit was not just for religious purposes. Haven’t you heard of kalidasa? Delhi elite are giving persian names to their children in place of sanskrit–is this because of hindutva too?

    ” It is very easy to divide people over language. ”

    It is even easier to divide over caste. That’s why british tried to call our dharma “brahminism”–purpose is to isolate brahmins from everyone and leave them vulnerable to attack. Without language how will you communicate? Language matters–looks like you want urduization…

    “What do you mean by Sanskrit culture? Dharma is/was never language specific. ”

    Do you know nothing of our sanskrit literature? All our mahakavis and dramatists who wrote great poems and plays. Kalidasa, bhavabuti, bhartrhari, dandin–all these are examplars of sanskrit high culture. Bharata muni is another–he gave us natya sastra (also in sanskrit). That is sanskrit high culture. This is what keeps us connected to heritage. Bhavabuti’s Uttaramacarita allows poetic and dramatic expression of the rasas in Valmiki’s epic poem. High culture matters.

    Second, you both completely misunderstand dharma. Varnashrama dharma is a means to an end, not the end itself. Dharma, as in righteousness, which originates in Satya. That is the ultimate dharma. Individual dharmas, context sensitive dharmas, varnashrama dharma, all ultimately are supposed to lead and preserve Sanatana dharma. That is righteous behavior of mother raising child (rather than aborting), child taking care of old parents, strong protecting weak. Yes, these basic principles of morality are the ONE ultimate Dharma that all varnas have to observe. Their individual varna dharmas are their own business (have i denied varna dharma’s importance?), but this one Dharma does exist and is why even to this day christian and muslim indians have some feeling of connection to India and hindus.

    “Throw the language from the equation and then look into our past and you’ll know the truth.”

    Zed and Lakshman have both given you and senthil an education in history–what right do you have to make pretense to the truth. You have failed to address specific points, because out of ahankar, you cannot admit that you fellows are wrong and failed to provide educated counterpoints (senthil still hasn’t responded to lakshman on his blog or given Zed what he asked for). But fact remains–you don’t know the facts about Andhra and Telangana.

    “Again you are looking at it from a linguistic perspective. ”

    Cause language matters! What language are we speaking?–is it an Indian one? Why are we communicating in it? It is because of legacy of foreign dominance. It is preserved because India continues to retain it as official language and because of foreign global power. Power changes culture! Have not youth become westernized?–Language was the key driver–i.e. tv shows which also transmit culture and cultural standards. Understand and educate yourself before pontificating about facts you know nothing about.

    If everyone prefers urdu–whose culture do you think will dominate? Already tamil muslims are breaking from past, and many are no longer speaking tamil–urdu schools are being established. Same thing was done in Telangana region during Nizam time. If language changes, then epic literature changes–instead of Rama, people look to Rustom of Persia. Delhi fools are already doing this despite being hindus. They think hindu culture is backward because they are ignorant of high culture…

    ” Both religion and language needs to take a backseat, else it would be impossible to run a nation like India intact in the long run.”

    India has become difficult to manage precisely because caste equations have been used against hindus. Answer the question are there or are there not caste parties that have been used to harm hindus?

    “You talk as if larger states help villages to thrive. Prosperity of villages does not have any relation with the size of the state. ”

    It does when Union government controls funds. In India, all receipts go to central government which then reallocates to states. In this system, large states have more bargaining power because more lok sabha seats.

    “You keep forgetting that it is in this united Andhra that almost 30% got converted to Christianity. What were you people doing then?”

    You keep forgetting that this happened through congress government of CM YSR. That is the danger of voting for congress–but your dost Senthil would rather vote for congress Mukherjee than Modi dude to caste reasons (agriculture is just his pretext). So maybe get a better grasp of the facts next time.

    “When did we say that we are rejecting languages? We are only asking you to stop looking into our history by using language as the lens. ”

    By refusing to recognize the importance of them and how states preserve the linguistic culture, you open vacuum for evangelicals who have money power to put out false versions of language high culture. This already happened with Tamil–caldwell was great enemy of tamil brahmins. He is now dalit hero PRECISELY because language literature of sangam era was falsified. Now same thing done with Telangana. First step is to coopt culture, second step is to partition.

    You failed to answer my point about what would happen if kanyakumari region became separate–would not tamil christians then dominate as andhra christians would in coastal andhra state?

    “I doubt you hardly have any idea about the meaning of the above terms. Pls go and educate yourself about that first by reading other articles in this forum.”

    Uh, I do, but you clearly have no knowledge of history. Your ignorance of the facts is obvious from your failure to properly respond to my points above. If you fail to respond to them, then you admit defeat.

    “The question here is not about small or large. The question here is about what metrics you use to bifurcate the states.”

    First of all, you obviously don’t understand the meaning of the world “bifurcate”–which means split into two. You are prescribing this for every state even UP where there are more than 2 regional historical identities. See this is the importance of language– you need to know what you are saying.

    The words you are looking for is state division or reorganization. You’re welcome…

    “I’m only pointing out that linguistic division of states have completely disintegrated us in the past few decades. Our enemies are using this as a weapon against us.”

    No it hasn’t. It ended local rivalries and ensured the building block of regional culture. That itself is stepping stone to national revival of dharma. You advocate jati–fine. But just as you define jati as building block for “desam”–each desam is in turn building block for bharatavarsha. But where is your proof for desam–senthil still hasn’t provided–only wikipedia. LKG students will laugh at you both for using this as “historical proof”.

    “We had various dharmas like Kula Dharma, Swadharma, Varna Dharma etc. Did we ever have Bhashya dharma? ”

    But how is dharma communicated? Does every person know sanskrit? Senthil certainly doesn’t want that. Our values, our traditions, and our heroes are communicated through language. If I learn Shruti/Smriti in English translations–is not some meaning lost?

    If urdu becomes our de facto national culture, don’t people lose interest in our epics and turn to persian epics? Do not our masses turn to shirin and farhad to talk of shringara instead of Dushyanta and Sakuntala or Pururavas and Urvashi?

    This is the kali yuga. Most people aren’t interested in religion. You have to make religion relevant by capturing attention of younger generation (completely ignorant despite degrees–I absolutely agree with you both there). How will you inspire them–it is through literature/movies and high culture. Right now urdu is dominating–even tamil brahmin girls want urdu love poetry because they don’t know about our ancient culture and how it is the most refined in the world (even in shringara matters). You want to perpetuate this cultural ignorance.

    If you get young people interested in our culture through non-religious literature, they will then become more interested in religious literature, and then more receptive to your position on jati dharma etc. Does everyone know sanskrit? No, most only know their own mother tongue. But to preserve those epics you need government efforts to promote, preserve, and distribute translations. That is why linguistic state governments help (they preserve regional high culture). Regional high culture provides foundation for our national sanskrit culture which I already discussed. Instead of looking to ghalib, they will look to kalidasa–and then ultimately, Veda Vyasa.

    Remember, Sri Krishna doesn’t say “varnashrama dharma samsthapanarthaya…”, he says “dharma samsthapanarthaya… “. Get people interested in Dharma first, then you may have a chance at your preferred system of jati-desa organization.

    If no interest in Dharma in general, then dalits are lost, obcs are lost, then brahmins lost and all is lost (not just jati and desam, but samskruti, dharma, vidya, jnana, and samanya). That is the importance of unity. Evangelicals succeed because we are divided and masses don’t know culture, so they claim to be godly teachers and “Saviors”–they exploit jati by spreading lies about brahmins (and other dwijas). We need people to teach masses culture in native language (not everyone is genius polyglot like PVNR). This is what our brahmans are supposed to do. Thus, your approach is wrong. Start with language, then culture, then morality, then people see the value of jatis. You have it backward–this is recipe for disaster.

    In sum, you did not respond point for point about Telangana–most importantly urduization of Telangana through owaisis. You can’t prescribe solutions if you don’t demonstrate logical understanding of problem and basic historical facts.

  33. senthil says:

    @nyaya,

    /** You can’t help me because you don’t use logic and fact. If you want jati and (pra) desam, you also have to consider language–can’t cover your eyes to that. **/

    I have explained in detail the roles each jathi played in ancient dhesam based society.. language is just enabler for these roles and NOT the core aspect of the society..

    Also you have to understand the drastic difference in how the term “Culture” is perceived in the west.. although the culture came from “kalaachaar”, it does not represent the same meaning..

    Kalachaaram means the “Acharams” followed by each jathi.. i need not explain what aachaaram means.. on the other hand, “Culture” is perceived in the west through the language, arts, dance, and so many other fancy things..

    The problem with us is that we see every aspect of our society from the western perspective and western context.. culture is one such example, and your emotions with language is because of this.. Try looking at our society through the acharams followed by each jathi, and you will understand what we are ..

    /** If a person’s most important identity is dalit, then evangelicals will exploit by telling him brahmins oppress him. But if his most important identity is that he is a dharmik of bharat, then telugu/tamil, then dalit–then tension about humble origin automatically dissipates.
    **/

    Dalit is NOT an identity, used by any of the ordinary jathis.. the common people identify themselves through their jathi names.. it is the urban intellectuals (who are disconnected from our society), who are taking this identity as big thing..

    Pls look at your own comments.. you are assuming most of the things based on imagined scenarios.. this dalit issue is one such..

    The best anti-dote to this dalit identity is the cultural regions.. For eg, in the united UP, Bahujan Samaj Party acquires power, through horizontal consolidation.. whereas, take bhundelkand.. the role of Dalit identity will be minimised and the regional culture and history will take place..

    Most of the jathis has respect for the dominant ruling jathis through out india.. it is the urban india which is living wester colonial narration, where they see our history thru european lens, and consider our ruling class as oppressor of dalits.. that’s not true..

    • nyaya says:

      “language is just enabler for these roles and NOT the core aspect of the society..”

      You are not understanding how individuals think. When two people meet, what is the first issue they come across–how to communicate! That is the importance of language.

      Second, they look at where person comes from. This is the problem with you rural types, you think everyone lives like you in village island separate from world. You think jati is most important, but powerful mlecchas only look at our race and color and religion. That is how they classify. When you meet a Chinese or French, he doesn’t ask jati, he asks nationality, then maybe religion, and will adapt his treatment of you based on that.

      That is why I asked you the definition of strategy–because it’s clear you don’t understand. Strategy doesn’t just ask what is the best thing to do, it asks what is the best thing to do given our position and the enemy’s position/strategy. Have I denied importance of jati/varna? But given enemy’s strategy of dalit (and even more catastrophic, obc) grievance, you are doing EXACTLY what missionaries want! They want to emphasize false “Afro-dalit” theory, how will you defend?

      ” Try looking at our society through the acharams followed by each jathi, and you will understand what we are ..”

      Again, you are not understanding. It doesn’t matter what I think or you think, it matters what masses think–most of them are irreligious because culture is irreligious. You have to use culture to steer them to religion.That is value of regional and sanskrit high culture and need for it in tv/films.

      On top of that, you are incorrect. Culture is not kulaachar, culture is samskruti. That is the correct analogue.

      “Dalit is NOT an identity, used by any of the ordinary jathis.. the common people identify themselves through their jathi names”

      It is! How do you know, are you dalit? Missionaries have money which they use to remind dalit about his culture, and then use this as excuse for “brahmin oppression” lies. On one hand you say jati is most important, on the other hand you deny the existence of dalit identity which is a reality whether you like it or not. Different jatis are classifed as panchama or dalit. You can’t escape this.

      “Pls look at your own comments.. you are assuming most of the things based on imagined scenarios.. this dalit issue is one such..”

      You are ignoring ground facts. Anyone can google. Is there not an Afro-Dalit foundation? Does mayawati not campaign on basis of dalit identity? You deal in theory, I deal in reality”

      “The best anti-dote to this dalit identity is the cultural regions.”

      Ceteris Paribus (do you know what this means?). You are forgetting our circumstances have changed. It is not 1000 years ago. Foreigners and foreign cultures have changed population make up, so creation of Coastal Andhra gives advantage to missionaries (since greater % in Coastal Andhra means christians have more power. Same in Telangana with owaisis). You still haven’t answered question about whether you want to help Owaisis’ Urduisation of culture, which they are demanding for Telangana (kcr already supports % muslim quota and privileges for Urdu).

      “Most of the jathis has respect for the dominant ruling jathis through out india.. it is the urban india which is living wester colonial narration, ”

      See again! Divide and rule. You are pitting urban india against rural india as if they are enemies. so now, not only brahmin vs dalit, but urban brahmin vs rural brahmin. this is recipe for defeat! You are also ignoring the fact that some degree of urbanization was there even before foreigners came. Pataliputra was greatest city in the world. Saraswati-Sindhu civilization also provides evidence.–We weren’t purely rural society.

      And you are again ignoring change circumstances. Technology, strategy, and manpower are key determinants for victory and defense against outsiders. For modern technology you need large pools of researchers and support infrastructure–cities provide this. Unless you know brahmastra and Narayanastra, how will you defend against modern Chinese and improved pakistani armies?–bows and arrows? (answer this question)

      You also did not allow my links through

      • senthil says:

        /** You also did not allow my links through **/

        I checked in my admin panel.. there was no comment of yours, under moderation.. can you pls post it again?

        • nyaya says:

          Tried a number of times–still not going through. Maybe check your spam filter. Comments with links sometimes go there. Thx.

  34. Surya Ramachandran says:

    Whatever one thinks is one culture. The basis ones thoughts is language. All inter-subjective ideas like jati and varna is based on language. The translation for culture is actually samskriti, which is from samskritam (samyak rupena kritam).

    The issue here is not whether Telengana is formed as a separate state or not (anyway state itself is a modern idea). The issue here is whether Telengana can culturally grow. The answer is yes, and it can be done only with the help of seemandhra, who can leverage their language.

    i wish to point out that seemandhra people have failed in thier mission. The telugu movies which is influencing the people, is highly cheap ( same with tamil ones). Very unfortunately, Telugu is degraded.

    • nyaya says:

      Surya, thank you for your measured response.

      About films, you are absolutely right!

      That is my precisely point though. Telugu movies are full of cheap nonsense (you are being kind, Tamil movies are at least slightly better in content–or at least originality!). And hindi movies are now national cinema–and look, our women are ignorant of our shringara kavya and think only urdu shurdu poetry is great. Does this not give advantage to love jehadis and pakistanis? If you want women to follow dharmic path, you must first understand how important shringara is to a woman.

      If you show them first that hindus have shringara kavya which is infact superior to persian poems, and that kama is one of our purusharthas–then she will become interested in our culture. But when she reads kamasutra, she will read that even Vatsyayana emphasized the importance of morality in kama. Thus kama in our samskruti has a time and place (married life) and certain ethical restrictions. So to be able to properly enjoy shringara and kavya, she must ultimately follow Dharma. Then you can tell her about the importance of varna/jati dharma. Right now, she will not be receptive no matter what gotra she is from. Thus we CANNOT surrender the space of language-culture. We must use it for the advantage of Dharma.

      Thus pop culture, urdu shurdu or filmy nonsense is not what can raise our children–it is high culture which raises children. Since not all people can study veda-shastra, our itihasa-purana, charitra, kavya, rupaka, natya, sangeeta, bhasha all become important. Also, high culture cinematic/tv expression of our samskruti (i.e. Ramanand Sagar Ramayan, etc) becomes crucial. See success of Raajneeti film (which still fall way short, but better than insulting our culture like Aamir Khan does)–masses are hungering for brahmanas to make our samskruti relevant to modern era. We must show people that it is possible to be modern AND moral.

      Seemandhra people failed in mission not because of movies, seemandhra failed in mission because they did not emphasize cultural unity. They allowed themselves to be pawns of evangelical congress and hyderabadi arab servants. Foolish masses voted for congress due to selfishness. People are selfish due to loss of dharma. Loss of dharma is due to loss of samskruti. Loss of samskruti is due to loss of bhasha. Thus to restore Dharma, we must restore bhasha and samskruthi–the mediums for communicating Dharma.

      Also, you may want to reconsider your last sentence. Telugu is not degraded–nor is Tamil. It is society that has become degraded. To restore social morals people have to learn high culture (our bharatiya samskruti). If they learn samskruti, then they will learn morality and religion (i.e. kathasaritsagara is not religious text, but full of religious lessons, same with panchatantra).

      Film as a cultural medium is new (roughly hundred years old). Thus our task is to make sure we incorporate high culture samskruti in films/tv (like first indian film Satyaharishchandra). That is how dharma is restored. And if dharma is restored, then you people on this blog will actually have a shot at convincing people of importance of jatis. Right now, no shot.

  35. vyas says:

    //If you show them first that hindus have shringara kavya which is infact superior to persian poems, and that kama is one of our purusharthas–then she will become interested in our culture. But when she reads kamasutra, she will read that even Vatsyayana emphasized the importance of morality in kama. Thus kama in our samskruti has a time and place (married life) and certain ethical restrictions. So to be able to properly enjoy shringara and kavya, she must ultimately follow Dharma. Then you can tell her about the importance of varna/jati dharma. Right now, she will not be receptive no matter what gotra she is from. Thus we CANNOT surrender the space of language-culture. We must use it for the advantage of Dharma.//

    All fine, but where does language come in here? Can’t I speak Russian and still follow the path of dharma?

    //seemandhra failed in mission because they did not emphasize cultural unity//

    First define what culture is and then we can talk about unity. If the emphasize was on language how did we have so many languages in this country? Why didn’t we have a single language for the whole nation? Also do you know how many languages were there in this country about a hundred years ago? Most of them are extinct by now. Do you know for sure that Telugu was the only language spoken in the entire Andhra Desam? Every major language in our country like Tamil, Telugu, Hindi etc has killed several minority languages. There were about 143 documented languages in south India alone once upon a time. Many of these didn’t have scripts and were only verbal. Now with the advent of lingustic bifurcation of states, many of these minority languages became extinct. In fact the very reason we could have so many languages intact for thousands of years was because our dharmic setup provided equal space for each and every community to prosper thereby they could protect their dharma without any hassle. But people like you in the name of language chauvinism have literally ruined the weaker sections of the society.

    //Thus to restore Dharma, we must restore bhasha and samskruthi–the mediums for communicating Dharma.//

    Strictly speaking you don’t need a language for communication. A language is just a bunch of words and has no significance beyond that. Since right from the childhood we have fine tuned our mind towards language we give so much importance to it. What good is a language if your mind ceases to function? Also our sanatana dharma is applicable to the whole universe including every animate and inanimate object. There are billions of species in this planet which can’t speak like we do. Do you really think they aren’t dharmic?

  36. nyaya says:

    “All fine, but where does language come in here? Can’t I speak Russian and still follow the path of dharma?”

    What has happened today? Is not english language pervading everything? Is not hinglish and telugish and tamglish pervarding households? There is now an entire generation of middle class youth IN India who don’t speak their language properly–or at all (see English Vinglish movie). They ask “papa, what is the need? English is modern and secular”. So if people think to be modern or “Civilized” they have to know only english–they will have contempt for mother tongue, which leads to contempt for culture, and contempt for India. That is why italian babysitter was pushing for english medium in primary school level–rather than Tamil in TN, Telugu in AP, etc.

    Language is culture. A russian speaking brahmin may be able to do naimmitika and nitya karma–but dharma isn’t karma alone. Along with doing must come understanding. How can he understand what he is doing if he doesn’t understand sanskrit–meaning is lost. That’s why Rajiv Malhotra has list of Non-translatables (i.e. atman, jeevan), because not all words can be translated. Better to know the language itself. Since not all can learn sanskrit, our regional bhasha’s (which are sanskritized) can facilitate the full transmission of idea. That is importance of knowing an indian language.

    “First define what culture is and then we can talk about unity.”

    I have done many times already–you need to take time to read and properly understand.

    Culture is samskruti. As Surya has defined above it gives us a set of traditions, values, principles, vocabulary, melody and aesthetics to aspire towards. These values are informed by Sanatana Dharma. Thus, a hindu Andhra celebrates Deepavali as a hindu Rajasthani celebrates Diwali. Not all festivals are same–but core ones (diwali, janmasthami, etc) are.

    Each region (you and senthil use archaic term desam) has a regional culture. And Bharatavarsha has a civilizational culture, which provides common sanskrit high culture and dharmic values. Whether you say dharm in punjabi or dharmam in telugu, hindu will understand.

    “Why didn’t we have a single language for the whole nation? Also do you know how many languages were there in this country about a hundred years ago? Most of them are extinct by now. ”

    Heh, I don’t think you realized how you just proved my point. Many of these desams you are talking about are extinct (i.e. trigartas, melakas) or have changed . Thus culture is fluid. Even dharma changes in every yuga to some degree. Dharma of Rama impossible today, because in kaliyuga no king can count on such selfless loyalty from his brothers or laws of war from enemy. Same with Dharma of Satyaharischandra and Yudhisthira, turuskas and mlecchas would take advantage of their compulsive truth telling and promise-keeping. It is the Dharma of Sri Krishna that we must follow.

    As for your question about single language, senthil himself doesn’t want sanskrit to be national language. So how can a tamil communicate with a kashmiri? Does senthil want hindi as national language or does he prefer mleccha english? These are serious decisions for serious people–not navel gazers.

    “Now with the advent of lingustic bifurcation of states, many of these minority languages became extinct.”

    There are 3000 dialects–do you want 3000 states? That is the problem with your stubborn push to force your solution for a problem you don’t understand. The answer is that each linguistic state has some related dialects (some tribal some not) which state is in a better position to protect than union govt. Every tribe or language group should protect its language, but we can’t take things down to dialect level. People must unify. Just as konds and chenchus should keep tribal dialect at home while uniting around telugu at state level, so too should telugus and tamils and bengalis unit around hindi while keeping state language at home. It’s not difficult, just takes effort and commitment.

    “In fact the very reason we could have so many languages intact for thousands of years was because our dharmic setup provided equal space for each and every community to prosper thereby they could protect their dharma without any hassle”

    Come to terms with REALITY–it is not thousands of years ago. Pandora’s box has been opened and modernity is here, mlecchas are here, what do you do with what you have. We do not have the luxury to sit around idly talking about what we like to see under shade of our farm’s palm tree, but we have to see what will work to defend as much of our tradition and religion as we can in these changed circumstances. If mlecchas control and define our language culture–we lose youth and masses and then lose the war. But if hindus teach themselves proper bhasha and samsruti and use it to teach dharma, then we will have unity and victory. Plain and simply, if you want to protect your women, you must unite. If you don’t care about your women, that’s your business, but men with any sense of manhood prioritize safety of their women over everything else.

    “But people like you in the name of language chauvinism have literally ruined the weaker sections of the society.”

    First, stop making accusations. Neither you nor senthil have shown the command of subject matter to even begin to respond to my points above. You are both ruining our cultural unity with your brahmin chauvinism. Look at senthil’s language above. “most jathis respect dominant jatis” (para). What kind of language is this. Brahmanas do not dominate they do not rule. It is kshatriyas who rule. But a brahmin is above a kshatriya so as to give him guidance in vidya and dharma. That is the genius of our culture. We separated these duties and said clerical and royal power cannot be held by same person or community, and spiritual power above political power. So first deal with caste chauvinism then you can make accusations of language chauvinism. Seems like senthil is more upset about brahmins not being “dominant” rather than adharma and immorality prevailing.

    Where have I pushed for language chauvinism? You were right about Telugus not being language chauvinists (when they go to bangalore, they learn kannada, in chennai, they speak tamil, in delhi, hindi), but you do not know the pride Telugus of whatever caste have in their language. Even krishna deva raya (whom some say was actually kannada or tulu) said telugu was the best of the national languages. So it is not absence of language chauvinism that protected telugu brahmins–but correct interpretation of samskruti and language that they taught the other castes. Every serious telugu knows that sanskrit enriched and beautified Telugu; whereas dravidianist morons think Sanskrit has to be filtered out of Pure Tamil.

    There is a difference between chauvinism and respect. Chauvinism is bad, respect is good. This respect for language then leads to self-respect of identity. This make sure masses can’t be confused and misguided by missionaries.

    “Strictly speaking you don’t need a language for communication. A language is just a bunch of words and has no significance beyond that. ”

    You people are truly living in a silo navel gazing rather than understanding the world and problem solving. I already answered this question about language (Sridevi made a movie that touches on it called English Vinglish). If you don’t think language matters, do you want tamil brahmin girls to be courted by urdu poetry read by pakistanis trying to love jehad them (already happening)? Answer these questions–you keep ignoring them.

    a. You still did not properly attempt to answer my question about urduization of culture and urdu push in telangana by owaisis.

    b. what are your solutions for congress and mim playing caste politics to divide hindus but unify minority votes?

    These are serious issues that you have to harmonize your “jati-desam” solutions with. You also have the burden of proof to demonstrate historicity of Telangana. Senthil has been disproven by Zed, vyasa 2, and Lakshman. Either you guys respond point for point or be a true brahmana and accept defeat if you don’t have the knowledge. Ahankar is the path to Adharma.

  37. senthil says:

    @nyaya,

    /** You are not understanding how individuals think. When two people meet, what is the first issue they come across–how to communicate! That is the importance of language.
    **/

    Language represents the culture and NOT viceversa.. words are representation of thoughts and NOT vice versa.. thats why i called language is ONLY an enabler.. when two people meet, they communicate message.. NOT language.. language is ONLY a medium to represent a cultural aspect.. take for eg, the relationship father’s sister.. its called as bua in hindi and “athai” in tamil.. language doesnt matter.. relationship matters, and both language represent the same entity.. (English language doesnt have a word for it, because the culture that language represents is different)..

    So i repeat, language is ONLY an enabler and NOT the culture in itself..

    Since you raised many points in your detailed comment, lets discuss each one in separate comment thread.. so reply only for the above topic in this thread for clarity of discussion..

    • nyaya says:

      ” (English language doesnt have a word for it, because the culture that language represents is different)..”

      You just proved my point. Language does matter.Because medium is the message (as people in advertising and marketing would say).

      The medium is the message” is a phrase coined by Marshall McLuhan meaning that the form of a medium embeds itself in the message, creating a symbiotic relationship by which the medium influences how the message is perceived.

      The warfare being conducted by mlecchas is linguistic and cultural among many other types. They use anthropologists to study us and find divisions–easiest division is brahmin vs dalit. Linguistic culture supersedes that, and Dharmic civilization supersedes linguistic rivalries. So rather than stubbornly insisting otherwise, you do need to expand your knowledge of this topic. Even on this subtopic of language, you ignored the core of my argument and failed to answer my question.

      Here is what I said in my preceding comment:

      ” I already answered this question about language (Sridevi made a movie that touches on it called English Vinglish). If you don’t think language matters, do you want tamil brahmin girls to be courted by urdu poetry read by pakistanis trying to love jehad them (already happening)? Answer these questions–you keep ignoring them.

      a. You still did not properly attempt to answer my question about urduization of culture and urdu push in telangana by owaisis.

      b. what are your solutions for congress and mim playing caste politics to divide hindus but unify minority votes?

      • senthil says:

        @nyaya,

        This is the problem with you.. you are obsessed with imagined/extrapolated threats, and jump to different unrelated topics.. pls focus on the core..

        my stance is that Kula-Acharam is the core of our civilization and NOT language.. i explained you why.. you did not answer for that.. as long as every jathi follows their kula-acharam, the christianity or islam cannot convert them.. on the other hand, if people dont follow their Kula-acharams, mere language will serve no purpose, and infact aid the enemy bcoz enemy has advantage of using language to convert the de-racinated people ..

        pls answer for this alone now..

        • nyaya says:

          Wrong, The core of our bharatiya culture is Dharma–not kulaachara (this is only one part of greater ideal of Dharma). That is why I called it Dharmic civilization, which India is the modern expression of. Andhra is part of Dharmic civilization. Andhra brahmins are part of Andhra–that is typology. This ensures sanatana dharma is protected through connection with national identity, state identity, and caste identities. People have multiple identities–not just one.

          “as long as every jathi follows their kula-acharam, the christianity or islam cannot convert them”

          Again, you have covered your eyes. Dalit jatis now have access to education. Tanner no longer wants to be tanner. Modern society is there. If you tell him his dalit identity is more important than hindu identity or tamil identity, he will say “Screw you” and convert to other religion.

          Finally, you have been disproven about kalinga–utterly false. your wiki map has been disproven. and your telangi desam quote has been disproven. you must now admit you were wrong about telangana being a desam. You must admit to this now

        • nyaya says:

          Also these threats aren’t imagined–they are very real. But how will ignorant village people know what threats we face if they haven’t traveled the world and met with non-indian and non-hindus? Pakistanis are always preying on hindu girls even in West–with special delight if they get brahmin girl. Urduization is happening–even vyas recognized this. Urduization is stepping stone to islamization.

          You have been defeated on all counts senthil, and especially wrong about kalinga desa being uttarandhra (ridiculous). Put aside your pride and think of protecting dharma by admitting you were wrong about Telangana. Protection of Dharma comes even before Kulachar according to Sri Krishna himself. Restore Dharma first. Do this by educating people about dharma in native language poems, plays, movies/tv, etc.

          • vyas says:

            //Urduization is happening–even vyas recognized this. Urduization is stepping stone to islamization. //

            You are very conveniently ignoring my point. I asked you to focus on islamization which is their ultimate goal. The language is not the ultimate factor. Even if the entire Andhra state decides to speak urdu there wouldn’t be any problems as long as people stick on to their dharma. But again the question of why is urduization a stepping stone to islamization still arises? It’s because they too are idiots like you whereby they associate urdu with culture.

            //You have been defeated on all counts senthil, and especially wrong about kalinga desa being uttarandhra (ridiculous). Put aside your pride and think of protecting dharma by admitting you were wrong about Telangana. //

            You keep saying “you are defeated, you are defeated…”. This shows your junk attitude. We are discussing here not to defeat anyone, but to learn our past. We need to do purva paksha as Rajiv Malhotra pointed out. Secondly you keep holding on to the wikipedia maps. I’m not an expert in Telengana history and I can’t comment about that. The question here is not about the boundaries of Telengana which may be inaccurate as given in the maps. The real question is cultural identities of the modern day states. There was nothing called a Telugu or Tamil culture. It is people who brand it so, to unite them for some purpose. In future if we happened to discover other planets with humans, an identity called “World/Earth Citizen” may be created. It’s only for convenience. This was how linguistic identities were created. Besides that linguistic identities have no sanction in our shastras.

            Finally in my opinion, the hue and cry over bifurcation is purely a political issue . If the Telengana people agree to give back Hyderabad to Seemandhara then your politicians would stop protesting. The hype and hooplah over this issue is purely because of enormous investments by politicians and businessmen in Hyderabad.

            //Protection of Dharma comes even before Kulachar according to Sri Krishna himself//

            Protection of which Dharma? You are talking as if Dharma is akin to Bible/Kuran. Also you are treating Kalaachaar and Dharma as two different entities, which is where the problem arises. When Arjuna refused to fight his own family men, Krishna urged him to give priority to his kula dharma (which is kshatriya). Where do you think your kalaachaar comes from? It comes straight from your kula dharma. Protecting your kula dharma itself will protect your kalaachaar. There is nothing called Telugu/Tamil dharma :-)

          • nyaya says:

            “You are very conveniently ignoring my point. I asked you to focus on islamization which is their ultimate goal.”

            That was MY POINT, you fool! I am the one who brought up point about love jehad and pakistanis. Urduization only 1 prong towards the goal of Islamization. My God, how stupid are you?

            “The language is not the ultimate factor”

            I ALREADY SAID THIS HERE:

            “Exactly, urduization has to be fought to protect sanatana dharma–that is my point!!! How will you do this? ”

            “Again you missed the point. Urduisation is only one step in their strategy. Cultural awareness of Telugu, Tamil, Rajasthani, Sanskrit literature, etc, is the defense to that.

            To defend against their other strategies for conversions even in telugu speaking state, you need 1. a dharmic government at state and/or national level 2. brahmanas and other knowledgeable people to educate masses on religious lessons”

            LEARN TO READ.

            “It’s because they too are idiots like you whereby they associate urdu with culture.”

            No, because you are an utter and complete imbecile who doesn’t even know the difference between kulachar and samskruti. My god, only a buffoon conflates the two.

            “This shows your junk attitude. We are discussing here not to defeat anyone, but to learn our past. ”

            It matter when someone who is uneducated and unqualified on the History of Andhra and the History of India like you and Senthil gives solutions. Senthil and you are now lying that there is proof for Telangana desam–there is none. Zed, Vyasa 2, and Lakshman have all disproved you. Historic telangana has been invalidated–SO IF YOU ARE A TRUE HINDU ADMIT YOUR MISTAKE.

            “We need to do purva paksha as Rajiv Malhotra pointed out. Secondly you keep holding on to the wikipedia maps. I’m not an expert in Telengana history and I can’t comment about that.”

            You have done virtually no purva paksa of merit–that is the difference. Otherwise you would understand the power of language–which even Rajiv Malhotra has spoken about (i.e. untranslatables). He even complained about sufi-ization (stealth islamization) through bollywood/urdu shurdu culture. That’s the problem you ignored ALL this above. Yet you still comment and attack my position.

            “he question here is not about the boundaries of Telengana which may be inaccurate as given in the maps. The real question is cultural identities of the modern day states. There was nothing called a Telugu ”

            No, buddhu. The point is there was never a historic “TELANGANA” culture or desam. You already admitted you were not an expert in this culture and history. Not even that, your knowledge in this area is pathetic–so stop giving solutions to problems you don’t understand. This is exactly what Zed criticized senthil about.

            “Besides that linguistic identities have no sanction in our shastras.”

            Do jehadis and missionaries have sanction? You have to look at the SITUATION TODAY not thousands of years ago. There are anti-national among you today. If you make up nonsense like telangana desam they will take advantage and use it for their own purpose of breaking up India and converting hindus. So do not give solutions without thinking. THINK, MAN. USE YOUR BRAIN.

            “Finally in my opinion, the hue and cry over bifurcation is purely a political issue . If the Telengana people agree to give back Hyderabad to Seemandhara then your politicians would stop protesting. ”

            People protesting in small towns across seemandhra have no money invested. In fact, it is Non-Telugu businessmen, hyderabadi fundoos, congress, and kcr traitors who have pushed for Telangana. Telugu people have a Telugu Thalli (google the words. All castes, from brahmana to panchama are devoted to her). There is a Telugu culture–how can a non-Telugu lecture us on who we are? So don’t try to play missionary and define us.

            “Protection of which Dharma? You are talking as if Dharma is akin to Bible/Kuran. Also you are treating Kalaachaar and Dharma as two different entities, w”

            Your knowledge of Dharma is pathetic. Don’t lecture me on it. Dharm and Kulachaar are NOT SAME. Kulachar is a COMPONENT of Dharma. DHARMA IS ABOVE KULACHAR. Even a child can understand this simple concept.

            Protecting Dharma doesn’t mean being like foreign religions. Protecting dharma means restoring morality and righteousness. You obviously read at a grade school level, so let me repeat.

            “Sri Krishna doesn’t say “varnashrama dharma samsthapanarthaya…”, he says “dharma samsthapanarthaya… “. Get people interested in Dharma first, then you may have a chance at your preferred system of jati-desa organization.”

            Here is what Krishna says about obsession with kulachar:

            “In marked contrast, Lord Krishna criticizes the ordinary Vedic dharma by which one seeks residence in Indra’s heaven:
            “Those who follow the science of the three Vedas and drink the Soma, their sins purified, aspire to go to heaven through sacrifices. Having reached the pious world of the king of gods, they partake in heaven of the celestial enjoyments of the gods. Having enjoyed the vast world of heaven, they fall to the mortal world when their piety is exhausted. Thus those who desire sense gratification, and who have consistently resorted to the dharma of the three Vedas, achieve only going and coming.” (Bg. 9.20-21)”

            Merely following kulachar is not the path to liberation, it is a stepping stone. Remember, the Vedas are divided into karma kanda, jnana kanda, and upasana/bhakti kanda. Karma kanda is only the kindergarten–it will not get you moksa, only Indra’s svarga for small time.

            The ultimate purpose of Dharma (righteousness) is to promote bhakti, which comes through knowledge of Satya. Awareness and understanding and love of Brahman and recognition of Paramatma in all individual atmans is what achieves ultimate liberation. Brahma janati, iti brahmana.

            Even in the Vishnu Sahasranama, it says achara is the path to dharma, and dharma is the path to Krishna. Kulachar is not Dharma, it is small part of Dharma. Dharma is ultimately nothing but the Lord’s will–righteousness/morality. Kulachar is only a primary school step to that. Jnana and Bhakti are what ultimately advance us to God. So don’t give religious lectures when your understanding is infinitesimal.

          • nyaya says:

            Also Krishna showed Dharma is above mere kulachar. Bhima broke kulachar by hitting Duryodhana in thigh. Kshatriya kulachar meant fighting according to rules. Krishna said Bhima should break rule, since beating Duryodhana would win war for Pandavas who protect Dharma. Same principle applies to brahmanas. They must also protect and reestablish dharma—even if it’s at the cost of kulachar (which can be restored later).

            First priority is Dharma–righteous behavior, which I have defined above

            Second priority is Kulachar. Don’t confuse the two. LKG students make that mistake.

  38. vyas says:

    //Is not english language pervading everything? Is not hinglish and telugish and tamglish pervarding households?//

    The problem is not with English language per se. We succumbed ourselves to the English culture, which changed our behavior that in turn resulted in all the issues that you mentioned. The Chinese and Japanese too learn English now a days, but they treat English as just a language not as a culture. Again mark my words. I’M NOT AGAINST OUR REGIONAL LANGUAGES AT ALL. I”M ONLY VOICING MY OPINION AGAINST OUR HABIT OF LOOKING AT OUR PAST FROM A LINGUISTIC LENS. Also I strongly vouch the fact that language can never be one’s identity. One can assume it as his/her identity out of personal affinity/affection/choice which is up to them but our shastras never advocated them as our identities.

    //How can he understand what he is doing if he doesn’t understand sanskrit–meaning is lost//

    The problem with you is that you perceive Sanskrit as any other spoken language which is wrong. Sanskrit was never a spoken language. There may be a few exceptions here and there but predominantly it wasn’t. This is because casual use of Sanskrit was staunchly discouraged. Even during the Ramayana period Valmiki writes that Hanuman communicated with Seetha in Manushya Baasha which is not Sanskrit. Mantras are vibrations that produce an effect depending on how it’s pronounced. I once remember an incident narrated by my uncle. A study conducted a few decades ago in Chidambaram among the Dikshithars revealed that a substantial amount of children born in their family were mentally disordered. This question was raised to Sringeri Shankaracharya and he is said to have told that it predominantly happened when Dikshithars missed Beeja when pronouncing their mantras. Such is the power of the mantras. They may or may not convey any meaning depending on our interpretations, but they definitely do have an effect which eventually results in karma. Unless you come out of your linguistic obsession you won’t have the right mindset to understand what I said.

    //Language is culture//

    Language is linked to culture but it doesn’t represent it.

    //As Surya has defined above it gives us a set of traditions, values, principles, vocabulary, melody and aesthetics to aspire towards//

    Where do all these originate from? From language? Naah. It comes from your paaramparya. Language is just one of the mediums for communication.

    //Thus culture is fluid. Even dharma changes in every yuga to some degree. Dharma of Rama impossible today, because in kaliyuga no king can count on such selfless loyalty from his brothers or laws of war from enemy. Same with Dharma of Satyaharischandra and Yudhisthira, turuskas and mlecchas would take advantage of their compulsive truth telling and promise-keeping. It is the Dharma of Sri Krishna that we must follow.//

    Again, all fine but where is the language factor here?

    //As for your question about single language, senthil himself doesn’t want sanskrit to be national language. So how can a tamil communicate with a kashmiri? Does senthil want hindi as national language or does he prefer mleccha english? These are serious decisions for serious people–not navel gazers//

    The very idea of national language itself is a colonial concept. There is no point in pontificating about it.

    //Every serious telugu knows that sanskrit enriched and beautified Telugu; whereas dravidianist morons think Sanskrit has to be filtered out of Pure Tamil.//

    The over emphasis of linguistics came only with the coming of the Europeans. They completely lost access to their mother civilizations with the advent of Christianity and didn’t have any pointers left (besides language) to trace back their roots and it is at this time language became important in Europe. All their historical research was done from a linguistic perspective. They did the same here and the result is people like you.

    The fundamental problem with you is that you are trying to confine dharma into the boundaries of language. Try to do the opposite and you’ll see the BIG difference that me and Senthil advocate.

  39. nyaya says:

    “The problem is not with English language per se. We succumbed ourselves to the English culture, which changed our behavior that in turn resulted in all the issues that you mentioned.”

    Your friend senthil already conceded my point when he said this:

    “English language doesnt have a word for it, because the culture that language represents is different ”

    It is game over my friend. Language represents culture. When telugu is official language of AP then Telugu samskruti and Sanskrit literature are guiding point. If Urdu, then it is Urdu and persian. If English, then english (and Italian…). So you guys have already conceded.

    “This is because casual use of Sanskrit was staunchly discouraged. ”

    This is where you demonstrate ignorance of classical India. Elites (Dwijas) did use sanskrit as language of culture, poetry, drama, etc. I already gave you examples of Kalidasa, Bhavabhuti, Dandin (but you keep pretending I didn’t to prove your point). You cannot escape this fact.

    ” Unless you come out of your linguistic obsession you won’t have the right mindset to understand what I said.”

    Stop pretending like you have some high knowledge to give. I have demonstrated your ignorance time and again of not only Andhra’s history, but Sanskrit literature, and Indian history/culture. Senthil already conceded that language represents culture, because medium is the message

    “Language is linked to culture but it doesn’t represent it.”

    It does, Senthil himself already admitted it above. Medium is the message.

    “Where do all these originate from? From language? Naah. It comes from your paaramparya”

    Language reinforces and represents it–that’s what you don’t seem to understand. Because use and presentation of language gives message of dominance and primacy and culture. People speak english world over due to American global dominance. That is the power of language. Again, senthil already conceded this point.

    “Again, all fine but where is the language factor here?”

    Language opens the doors to it (through literature and now tv/films) and puts culture into practice. Again, you need to put ahankar aside and actually understand what I am saying instead of arguing to protect your pride. Medium is the message.

    “The very idea of national language itself is a colonial concept. There is no point in pontificating about it.”

    This is the problem with provincial navel gazers–how does national government operate?–must everything be translated in 3000 dialects. Seriously, do some thinking–use logic. there is need for a national administrative language for army, supreme court, cabinet, etc–can you give 3000 translations for troops during a battle. This is why in ancient times there was a special class of brahmanas for administration–to prevent someone from spouting ignorant nonsense because he has some knowledge in an unrelated field. Again, you failed to answer my question.

    ” They did the same here and the result is people like you.”

    No, they use “useful idiots” (that is not insult, but actual term used) like you who do exactly what they want–divide people along caste lines to say caste is most important identity rather than religion or nation. To me language is not the most important thing–Sanatana Dharma is. To protect it, sanskrit must be protected. To protect sanskrit, regional language must be protected, and to protect regional language, regional/cultural states must be protected. Then you can worry about your jati/varna obsession. Bifurcated state can be easily reattached. Bifurcated/Trifurcated nation–pandora’s box (pakistan is case and point).

    “The fundamental problem with you is that you are trying to confine dharma into the boundaries of language. ”

    Who is confining dharma?–I am only pointing out the connection between language and culture. But like a child, you still don’t understand–even though I have repeated explanation umpteen times.

    Again you conveniently keep ignoring the point about urduization–are you scared?

    • vyas says:

      Before I start providing my responses, let me clarify a few things first. There is absolutely no mandate that requires me and Senthil to agree on all matters. We do have difference of opinion in a lot of matters, at the same time agree on others.

      //It is game over my friend. Language represents culture//

      We are not playing any game here. We are just discussing about our past. There is no question of winning or losing. By the way I stand by my words. If language represents culture then two different people speaking the same language should have the same culture which is not the case. For eg. a Tamil speaking Brahmin and a Tamil speaking non-Brahmin both have very different cultures. That’s because culture is obtained through one’s paramparya. However culture is highly influenced by space and time factors too. This gives a new flavor to it. This is why the Brahmins of Chennai and Mumbai appear to be culturally so different.

      //Elites (Dwijas) did use sanskrit as language of culture, poetry, drama, etc. I already gave you examples of Kalidasa, Bhavabhuti, Dandin (but you keep pretending I didn’t to prove your point). You cannot escape this fact.//

      Your use of the term Sanskrit culture itself is funny. There is nothing called sanskrit culture. If you can show me one verse in our ancient scriptures that describe about sanskrit culture then I’ll consider it for more investigation.

      //Stop pretending like you have some high knowledge to give//

      I never ever portrayed myself as an expert in any stream. I’m only asking you to look at the issue from a different perspective. If you don’t want to, it’s up to you..

      //It does, Senthil himself already admitted it above. Medium is the message.//

      Message is communicated through a medium but by itself does not constitute it. For example you use a phone to convey a message to someone but the phone itself is not the message. Similarly language carries the message. Some languages due to their very nature are very good at delivering the message but some are very weak.

      //Language reinforces and represents it–that’s what you don’t seem to understand. Because use and presentation of language gives message of dominance and primacy and culture. People speak english world over due to American global dominance. That is the power of language. Again, senthil already conceded this point.//

      What are you trying to convey from the above statement? I can speak English and still continue to carry out my dharma, but I won’t because I love my mother tongue and can speak and understand it far fluently than English. Your comment about English language being powerful is rubbish. It’s the people who propagated it were powerful and not the language itself. If some people from Andhra had conquered the World like the British did, Telugu would have become the most powerful language in the World. English spread across the World like wild fire only because the Brits conquered the places wherever they went.

      //there is need for a national administrative language for army, supreme court, cabinet, etc–can you give 3000 translations for troops during a battle//

      The very idea of a nation that we are projecting today itself is a colonial concept and the national language thing is a phenomenon that sprouted out of it, so no point in discussing it.

      //This is why in ancient times there was a special class of brahmanas for administration–to prevent someone from spouting ignorant nonsense because he has some knowledge in an unrelated field//

      Brahmanas for administration? Administrators for what? They are not akin to your popes buddy.

      //divide people along caste lines to say caste is most important identity rather than religion or nation//

      Classifying people along the lines of Jaathi is not akin to dividing them.

      //To me language is not the most important thing–Sanatana Dharma is//

      At last you agreed. I’m happy :-)

      //To protect it, sanskrit must be protected//

      Adding to your comments, every other language must be protected.

      //To protect sanskrit, regional language must be protected, and to protect regional language, regional/cultural states must be protected. Then you can worry about your jati/varna obsession//

      What good is a language if you’ve lost your underlying culture? Emphasizing on language will result only in that. Protect your dharma and your language will be automatically protected.

      //Again you conveniently keep ignoring the point about urduization//

      I ignored it because you’ve completely trivialized the issue by applying the language factor. It’s not urduization. It’s islamization. You should look at it from this perspective. Urdu is more closer to muslims. It’s a language that they’ve been speaking ever since the mughals came here. Ultimately they are aiming for islamization and urduization is just an intermittent factor. Stop looking at this issue from a linguistic perspective. If you focus too much on the language, then there are too many urdu words in Hindi which eventually came to Tamil too (not sure about Telugu). What are you going to do about that? Also if the muslims agree to keep Telugu as their official language but still continue to convert people and resort to islamization of Hyderabad, are you still okay with that?

      • nyaya says:

        “By the way I stand by my words. If language represents culture then two different people speaking the same language should have the same culture which is not the case. ”

        You missed the point. Senthil himself conceded reality of language representing culture–so your own argument has been impugned. Second, no one is telling dalit jatis to all behave like brahmin jatis. So why are you so paranoid?

        “For eg. a Tamil speaking Brahmin and a Tamil speaking non-Brahmin both have very different cultures.”

        Again, tunnel vision. What language do they both speak? Is Sangam literature common to both? You keep defining culture as kulachar. Your kulachar is your own business-but that is not samskruti. Even a Tamilian agreed on that definition. So there you are wrong. A language culture is common to all castes, just as sanskritic culture is common to all regions. Your varna kulachar is your own business–where have I said this is universal?

        “Your use of the term Sanskrit culture itself is funny. There is nothing called sanskrit culture. If you can show me one verse in our ancient scriptures that describe about sanskrit culture then I’ll consider it for more investigation.”

        No, it just means your understanding is flawed.We had a sanskrit literature beyond dharmashastras. It extended into realm of drama, poetry, sangeeta and natya. That is because our Vedic culture sanctioned purusharthas–dharma, artha, kama, and moksha. Vedic branch focused on dharma and moksha. Other sanskrit literature focused on artha and kama. Thus, instead of Vedic/Dharmic culture, I am calling it Sanskritic culture because it deals with religious and non-religious literatures. Only fool will deny this. From north to south, elites were familiar with this before Turks came and imposed persianization and islamization. Kalidasa was northerner who made impact throughout India. Mallinatha was a southerner with impact throughout India. Both were great sanskrit literati writing on non-religious topics in sanskrit.

        “I’m only asking you to look at the issue from a different perspective. If you don’t want to, it’s up to you..”

        I have considered it from different perspectives. The problem is you don’t. You and senthil both insist on cookie cutter desam solution even when it doesn’t apply (no telangana desa then and no trigarta desa now).

        Second, where have I said all jatis must be same, all varnas same? Where have I said cultural regions are wrong. I only said your desam solution is outdated and in many cases due to changed population (i.e. Western UP) will lead to mini-pakistans. Telangana is one such potential mini-pakistan or mini-kanyamaryams. You keep avoiding this reality and try to cookie cutter force desam even when NO PROOF for a desam. WHERE IS PROOF FOR TELANGANA DESAM?

        Third, if you don’t even have sufficient knowledge of Andhra’s history, how are you even competent to support this “desam” business and Andhra’s bifurcation. It is one thing to say states should be divided along cultural regions, or even ancient desams, it is another thing to say Telangana and Andhra must be split because telangana was a desam. Senthil has been disproven. Neither of you have provided proof worthy of even an elementary school class. WIkipedia is not proof.Zed, Vyasa 2, and Lakshman have all disproved Senthil and his wikipedia map.

        “Message is communicated through a medium but by itself does not constitute it. ”

        Again, this is the problem with rustic provincials, they only look through issues through their own prism. You have been given proof of message being the medium–you only refuse to accept it based not on logic but stubbornness. If global language is english, references to shakespeare predominate. Thus english culture pervades. Thus insistence on english is emblematic of english cultural domination–shakespeare becomes more important than kalidasa. You obviously don’t have capability to understand this concept.

        Read this again: The medium is the message” is a phrase coined by Marshall McLuhan meaning that the form of a medium embeds itself in the message, creating a symbiotic relationship by which the medium influences how the message is perceived.

        No one said medium replaces message or language. But medium carries a message of its own. Medium itself influences. If you haven’t studied marketing, advertising, or mass psychology you won’t understand this properly.

        “Your comment about English language being powerful is rubbish. It’s the people who propagated it were powerful and not the language itself”

        Your response here is utterly asinine. Have you been to metros today? English itself has become a status marker in India. It is one thing for an Indian to talk to a Chinese in English. It is another for Indians to speak to other Indians in english even when they both have same mother tongue! This happens because metro people feel that they only need english. English becomes the new “normal” rather than telugu or tamil. If they only communicate in english then they consume pop culture and high culture through english medium. People who control english medium thus have power and influence rather than local or national mediums and english figures become more important (ELM). Are you so recalcitrant as to deny this too? Seriously, even a high school student can grasp this simple concept.

        “The very idea of a nation that we are projecting today itself is a colonial concept and the national language thing is a phenomenon that sprouted out of it, so no point in discussing it.”

        When you have military in the millions, people come from different desams and have different mother tongues–in what language will orders be given. Answer this simple question.

        “Brahmanas for administration? Administrators for what? They are not akin to your popes buddy.”

        No, buddhu, there were brahmanas who acted as mantris and bureaucratic administrators in your desa rajyas. Do you even know anything?

        “Classifying people along the lines of Jaathi is not akin to dividing them.”

        Again, you apparently have trouble reading. Where have I said people should forget jaatis. Problem is when you OVER-EMPHASIZE jaatis and differences. You are saying jaati is more important than language and country as an identity. This plays into missionaries hand, who will then says–”see, brahmins don’t even want to assoc with you. They don’t even think of you as countrymen. We will make you kings, Brahmins are the foreign oppressors”. I already asked you to answer how you would handle this, but you were too scared to answer.

        Even senthil agreed with me here, he just didn’t realize it when he said this: “The best anti-dote to this dalit identity is the cultural regions.. For eg, in the united UP, Bahujan Samaj Party acquires power, through horizontal consolidation.. whereas, take bhundelkand.. the role of Dalit identity will be minimised and the regional culture and history will take place..”

        Andhra is a cultural region! Telangana is merely colonial holdover. That is what you did not understand. Tamil nadu is another cultural region (they are mini regions within TN, sure, but TN is still a cultural region). Only difference is, I based my cultural region on history, language, and current circumstances. You and senthil based it on a wikipedia map that not only wasn’t accurate, but does not consider present circumstances of turuskas.

        “//To me language is not the most important thing–Sanatana Dharma is//

        At last you agreed. I’m happy :-)”

        When have I denied? This is what happens when you don’t read properly and think properly. You argue for the sake of arguing rather than understanding. I only said language culture will help us defend Sanatana Dharma. Language culture is the means to the end of protecting Sanatana Dharma. Language culture is the cultural region. The cultural region is the subunit of our Dharmic civilization. See, here is proof from my old comment:

        “. If a person’s most important identity is dalit, then evangelicals will exploit by telling him brahmins oppress him. But if his most important identity is that he is a dharmik of bharat, then telugu/tamil, then dalit–then tension about humble origin automatically dissipates. He takes pride in being a hindu/dharmik indian first, then language second, and then third jati. Jati-dharm jati-karma is historically important, but when problems are global, you can’t prioritize local.”

        “//To protect it, sanskrit must be protected//

        Adding to your comments, every other language must be protected.”

        Again, you missed the point. I clearly said this already: ” To protect sanskrit, regional language must be protected, and to protect regional language, regional/cultural states must be protected.”

        So where have I said languages, whether tamil, koya, or whatever minor dialect has to go? I only said there is a linguistic high culture–common set of terms and archetypes and heroes, All punjabis whether brahmin or dalit know Ranjt Singh. Telugus know Tenali Ramakrishna. Tamils know Thiruvalluvar. These are not caste cultural figures but regional linguistic cultural figures. Your brahmin kulaachar can have its own practices, but there is a tamil identity too (tamil sangam literature informs it).

        “I ignored it because you’ve completely trivialized the issue by applying the language factor. It’s not urduization. It’s islamization. You should look at it from this perspective. Urdu is more closer to muslims.”

        No kidding, buddhu. Why do you think i kept talking of “pakistanis” and “jehadis”. Why did it take you a thousand words to finally understand this? What do you think owaisis are–brahmins?

        That is the point–religion and religious unity. Because of urdu, people look to sufi, which leads to islamization and persianization/arabization. That is the point. So your tamil brahmin girl because of urdu becomes more receptive to love jehad–I have already said this, only now you admitted.

        ” Stop looking at this issue from a linguistic perspective. If you focus too much on the language, then there are too many urdu words in Hindi which eventually came to Tamil too (not sure about Telugu). What are you going to do about that?”

        Of course it is ,at it’s core, religious. What do you think my point about “love jehad” was about?

        “Ultimately they are aiming for islamization and urduization is just an intermittent factor.”

        Exactly, urduization has to be fought to protect sanatana dharma–that is my point!!! How will you do this? I have given solutions about high culture and kalidasa poetry but even there you are still obsessed with brahmin culture or limiting sanskrit to mantra and veda.

        Where have i said urduization is the only problem–it is one problem. But if it is defeated, at least our women are less susceptible to paki romeos and mughal culture. Our culture is based on dharma. Mughal culture is based on arab religion.

        “Also if the muslims agree to keep Telugu as their official language but still continue to convert people and resort to islamization of Hyderabad, are you still okay with that?”

        Again you missed the point. Urduisation is only one step in their strategy. Cultural awareness of Telugu, Tamil, Rajasthani, Sanskrit literature, etc, is the defense to that.

        To defend against their other strategies for conversions even in telugu speaking state, you need 1. a dharmic government at state and/or national level 2. brahmanas and other knowledgeable people to educate masses on religious lessons and importance of our dharmic culture and identity, not only though bala vikas but also through tv/movies, etc. This will reinforce upadesam

        This is not 1 or the other–we must do all. But you have to think strategically–neither you nor senthil are doing that. That is why instead of speaking about Dharma’s universal factors, you only focus on varnashrama dharma–recipe for disaster. Jati is important, but when facing outsiders, even if different jatis have different habits (this is true), they all have to work together and fight together, even if they have different caste traditions. They need a common banner. Regional language unites people in each state/cultural region (75 andhra nayaks united to throw turks out of Andhra desa) and Sanskrit culture (dharmasastra, purana, kavya, rupaka) unites hindus of all states/desas through common identity of Dharma to throw out pakistanis and bangladeshis and other mlecchas from our land and ensure India is a land dedicated to Dharma.

        Whether this is a game or not, I have shown that there is no historical basis for Telangana, as have Zed, vyasa 2, and lakshman. I have also shown that language culture is the modern “cultural region” that will protect lower castes from missionary propaganda. Senthil himself admitted this point–only he failed to properly define his cultural regions. You are only wasting time arguing against it.

        • vyas says:

          //You missed the point. Senthil himself conceded reality of language representing culture–so your own argument has been impugned//

          Stop this rubbish argument. Why should I accept something just because Senthil concurs it and vice versa? We are not arguing here to win one over another. We are discussing to learn something.

          //A language culture is common to all castes, just as sanskritic culture is common to all regions//

          Language culture is something that you derive by comparing aachaarams of various Jaathis and finding out the commonalities. It’s out and out a superficially created entity. There is absolutely no sanction for it in our shastras. Also samskruthi is a broader name given to the cultural practices followed in the Bharathiya societies in order to differentiate us from other civilizations of the World. It by itself does not constitute any single culture. Just like we have samskruthi, the Arabs, European, Americans all have their own samskruthi. Our samskruthi is following the path of dharma.

          //We had a sanskrit literature beyond dharmashastras. It extended into realm of drama, poetry, sangeeta and natya//

          We had Tamil and Telugu literature too which had the same drama, poetry etc. So what?

          //Thus, instead of Vedic/Dharmic culture, I am calling it Sanskritic culture because it deals with religious and non-religious literatures//

          There is nothing called religious/non-religious in our society. Looks like you are caught up with European definition of religion. In our society we never had any religion. We only had mathams. First go and learn what the difference between the two and then come back and argue.

          //You keep avoiding this reality and try to cookie cutter force desam even when NO PROOF for a desam. WHERE IS PROOF FOR TELANGANA DESAM? //

          Looks like you’ve completely submerged yourself into this Telangana issue and reluctant to come out of it. As I’ve mentioned before there may or may not be any proof for a Telangana desam as such, but there is ample proof for existence of other desams. We have enormous scriptural evidences to prove that. The whole point of this entire argument is Telangana is one of the important moves against bifurcation of states based on linguistics. I don’t deny your allegations about missionaries, conversions, Jihadis etc but these are not new to us. They existed in the past and exist even today. They will continue to exist in future too. We need to invent innovative solutions to tackle them.

          //Third, if you don’t even have sufficient knowledge of Andhra’s history, how are you even competent to support this “desam” business and Andhra’s bifurcation//

          The concept of desam is not unique to Andhra for your kind information. It was how the entire country was divided for better governance in the past.

          //If global language is english, references to shakespeare predominate//

          The above statement clearly shows your lack of understanding. Today, the Gita has become a world renowned text. Now, Krishna is more popular than Shakespeare but despite that the dominance of English has not gone down a bit. In fact English has gained more speakers across the World than ever. Even the native English people have started to translate the Gita and learn it. Shakespeare is a cultural icon. Since the English people lost their sense of history they associated language with culture and eventually called Shakespeare as an Englishman.

          //Read this again: The medium is the message” is a phrase coined by Marshall McLuhan meaning that the form of a medium embeds itself in the message, creating a symbiotic relationship by which the medium influences how the message is perceived.//

          You can’t expect me to comply with some European definition. It is they who taught us the habit of associating language with culture and you want me to comply with their ideologies?

          //But medium carries a message of its own. Medium itself influences. If you haven’t studied marketing, advertising, or mass psychology you won’t understand this properly.//

          What message and where does it originate from? First answer this and we’ll discuss further.

          //English itself has become a status marker in India//

          That’s because of the impact that the British left upon us. Also our policies are a direct copy of the Europeans and the Americans. When you revert back to your dharma, the emphasis on English will automatically come down.

          //It is another for Indians to speak to other Indians in english even when they both have same mother tongue!//

          This is purely an issue with attitude and nothing to do with the language as such. I’ve seen many Andhra people who speak only in their mother tongue when they meet another Andhra guy wherever they are. When I was in the US i’ve met a lot of Andhra guys who initially start a conversation with me in Telugu thinking that I’m from Andhra. But the Tamils don’t replicate the same. That’s why I said it’s an attitudinal issue. The Andhra people love their language much more than the Tamils.

          //Seriously, even a high school student can grasp this simple concept.//

          I’ve told you several times that the issues you mentioned were all because we imported the English culture along with the language. Going back to your dharmic roots will automatically resolve these issues.

          //No, buddhu, there were brahmanas who acted as mantris and bureaucratic administrators in your desa rajyas. Do you even know anything? //

          Brahmanas were advisers but not administrators. Hope you understand the difference between the two. There might be a few exceptions with this but predominantly the Brahmanas followed the path of Vaideeha dharm until the dawn of the 19th century which is when they took up govt jobs in a large scale.

          //You are saying jaati is more important than language and country as an identity//

          The question is not about what is more important. It’s about where the emphasis should be when revisiting our past.

          // I already asked you to answer how you would handle this, but you were too scared to answer. //

          Firstly, had we got the sense of dharma, the very idea of Brahmins as oppressors would not even have erupted in our mindset. Secondly, the root cause of all the issues that you mentioned is a direct result of butchering of our dharmic lifestyle. All these problems can be fixed by appropriate dharmic education. It will take time but we’ll eventually reach there. Today conversion has somewhat been contained. The Hindutva groups are doing a phenomenal job to prevent conversion. In the internet age with the spread of message rapidly the evangelists are finding it difficult to convert people compared to how they did it about 10-20 years ago. Our focus should be to bring back both the converted and the non-converted people to the path of dharma. If that happens religions will lose it’s significance. The power to execute this lies only with Jaathi as that’s probably the only identity that surpasses the religious identity.

          //Andhra is a cultural region! Telangana is merely colonial holdover. That is what you did not understand. Tamil nadu is another cultural region (they are mini regions within TN, sure, but TN is still a cultural region).//

          What culture are you talking about here? Show me unique aspects of the Andhra culture versus the TamilNadu culture besides the language.

          // If a person’s most important identity is dalit, then evangelicals will exploit by telling him brahmins oppress him//

          The very identity Dalit itself is an alien invention. We never had any community called Dalit ever in the past.

          //Exactly, urduization has to be fought to protect sanatana dharma–that is my point!!! How will you do this? I have given solutions about high culture and kalidasa poetry but even there you are still obsessed with brahmin culture or limiting sanskrit to mantra and veda.//

          You’ve conveniently ignored my point. If you accept with my stand on islamization then why use the term urduization at all? All the stuff you mentioned about kalidasa, poetry etc are all dharmic messages shared between our societies. Where does the language factor come in here? If there was one community which the evangelists found extremely difficult to convert (eventually failed) across the country, it was the Brahmins. Find out why and you’ll get what I’m saying. By the way the Brahmins never focused on language whatsoever.

          //Again you missed the point. Urduisation is only one step in their strategy. Cultural awareness of Telugu, Tamil, Rajasthani, Sanskrit literature, etc, is the defense to that.//

          Again, you are conveniently ignoring my question. Are you okay with islamization if the muslims agree to keep Telugu as their official language in Andhra? The language has nothing to do with culture. In fact every regional language in our country was culturalized to the extent that we started equating it to the culture.

          //Jati is important, but when facing outsiders, even if different jatis have different habits (this is true), they all have to work together and fight together, even if they have different caste traditions.//

          You are taking the discussion in to a different direction. We never denied your above statements. Also we never said that different jaathi people should not gather together to fight against our enemies. Pls don’t try to distort our views. The core of the discussion is what metrics should we use to look back into our history. You propose the linguistic lens, we propose the ethnic lens. That’s the ultimate difference. You want to gather people of Andhra by creating superficial identities like Telugu/Tamil, it’s up to you, but the real identities lie elsewhere.

          //I have also shown that language culture is the modern “cultural region” that will protect lower castes from missionary propaganda//

          At last I’m happy you finally agreed. So, you agree that language culture is a modern invention? That’s what I want too. It was a newly invented identity. It wasn’t there in our ancient past.

        • nyaya says:

          “Why should I accept something just because Senthil concurs it and vice versa? We are not arguing here to win one over another. We are discussing to learn something.”

          India does not have the luxury of argument for the sake of argument so that navel gazers like you can foolishly think they are intellectuals. India needs problem solvers who research valid knowledge, analyze it properly, and give valid solutions. Both you and senthil have failed. So how can he still say “Telangana the first nail on coffin of colonial India”, when Telangana is itself a creation of Colonial India–and how can you support?

          If you want to learn–ask. Don’t debate. Have humility when you don’t know something–don’t pretend like you are giving solutions. Remember, you attempted to rebut my arguments by saying no telugu culture. You didn’t ask “is there telugu culture”. Don’t lie.

          “Language culture is something that you derive by comparing aachaarams of various Jaathis and finding out the commonalities.”

          Again, you have confused kulachar with samskruthi. Samskruthi is not purely religious in nature. Kulachar is itself based on religion. Even LKG student can understand that difference.

          Even senthil recognized my point. WHAT I CALL LANGUAGE CULTURE IS NOTHING BUT CULTURE REGION. EVEN SENTHIL ACCEPTED THIS WHEN HE SAID THIS HERE:
          October 31, 2013 at 3:05 am
          “The best anti-dote to this dalit identity is the cultural regions.. For eg, in the united UP, Bahujan Samaj Party acquires power, through horizontal consolidation.. whereas, take bhundelkand.. the role of Dalit identity will be minimised and the regional culture and history will take place..”

          READ THE ABOVE STATEMENT 3 TIMES BEFORE RESPONDING

          ERGO, ANDHRA IS THE CULTURE REGION–TELANGANA IS COLONIAL INVENTION AND COLONIAL BY-PRODUCT.

          “We had Tamil and Telugu literature too which had the same drama, poetry etc. So what?”

          The point is those are mediums to transmit dharma. Poetry extolling dharma, drama showing dharma, literature explaining dharma, tv shows and movies showing dharmic values. These are all components of SAMSKRUTHI that must be used to educate MASSES about Dharma. That is my point. Not everyone is a kulachar robot like you. So you cannot use force, you have to use persuasion to explain how Dharma is beneficial. Right now, urduization is used to promote Islamization and english dominance is used to promote christianization. Telugu, Tamil, and Sanskrit literature must be vehicles for Dharma and we have to take them back from Europeans. WHY DO YOU BOTHER TALKING OF MALHOTRA IF YOU DON”T ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HE IS SAYING? HE SAID THIS HERE:

          Rajiv MalhotraFounder, Infinity Foundation
          European Misappropriation of Sanskrit led to the Aryan Race Theory

          “Because Indians were not participants in European forums, there was widespread plagiarism of Indian texts, as well as much distorted interpretation.

          By “becoming” the Aryans, Europeans felt that they were the rightful custodians of the massive corpus of Sanskrit texts that were generating new breakthroughs in the humanities and liberal arts. “

          That is the problem when you limit culture to kulachar, samskruthi (humanities and liberal arts) is then appropriated from outsiders. So use your brain…

          “. In our society we never had any religion. We only had mathams. First go and learn what the difference between the two and then come back and argue.”

          hey dummy, it is you who needs to read this literature first before you are even qualified to comment. Rtusamhara by Kalidasa is not about kulachar or dharma–it is about Shringara. That is what I mean by non-religious.

          “As I’ve mentioned before there may or may not be any proof for a Telangana desam as such, but there is ample proof for existence of other desams.”

          Read then talk. Looks like you are like a child who gets excited and wants to participate but doesn’t know enough to say anything sensible. My point is that cultural region based states would be good CETERIS PARIBUS. It means everything else equal. But that is not the case today, since large concentrations of non-hindus in some real desams (Surasena/Braj) and fake desams (Telangana) would give us J&K style abdullah governments or West Bengal style Mamtadi governments.

          That is my point to you and senthil. You can’t use one-size fits all. So not only can you not recreate all the desams today, Telangana is not a real desam to begin with. So instead of arguing, go and learn, and if you don’t know, keep your mouth shut. If you want to learn, ask, don’t pretend like I’m the one who needs to learn to protect your pride.

          “We need to invent innovative solutions to tackle them.”

          What are those solutions. You are just flapping your gums without real knowledge–so is Senthil.

          “The concept of desam is not unique to Andhra for your kind information. It was how the entire country was divided for better governance in the past.”

          Doesn’t change the fact that you are incompetent to comment on Andhra by saying “no telugu culture”. Only an idiot would say that.

          “The above statement clearly shows your lack of understanding. Today, the Gita has become a world renowned text. Now, Krishna is more popular than Shakespeare ”

          No, it only shows you are a rustic provincial buffoon who hasn’t traveled the world extensively. Is english the language of global business or sanskrit or hindi? Think before you open your trap next time.

          Shakespeare in english speaking world is known to even lkg students. European lkg students don’t know Gita, and Gita expressions don’t pepper english. Shakespeare does.

          “You can’t expect me to comply with some European definition. It is they who taught us the habit of associating language with culture and you want me to comply with their ideologies?”

          The point isn’t about you, buddhu, IT IS ABOUT MASSES AND WORLD. Europeans dominate the world, so their definitions are what are taught to our kids because of our colonial education system and because everyone wants to work for MNC’s or Indian english speaking elite companies.So the definition is valid whether you have the brainpower to understand it or not.

          “What message and where does it originate from? First answer this and we’ll discuss further.”

          First study advertising, marketing, and mass psychology–then you will be qualified to comment. Right now, you don’t have knowledge or competence. Just arguing for sake of arguing because you have inferior knowledge of this subject matter.

          “When you revert back to your dharma, the emphasis on English will automatically come down.”

          How, buddhu, how do you get people to revert to dharma???? THINK. Masses have already been taught to be immoral or to change religion for riches or due to propaganda. So explain!!!

          “//It is another for Indians to speak to other Indians in english even when they both have same mother tongue!//

          This is purely an issue with attitude and nothing to do with the language as such.”

          No it is reality. You don’t need to go to US. In indian metros itself we have students speaking to other students in english. We have indian students speaking to parents at home in english in India. THAT IS THE PROBLEM YOU KEEP IGNORING.

          “I’ve told you several times that the issues you mentioned were all because we imported the English culture along with the language. ”

          No you haven’t. Going back to kulachar doesn’t solve the problem because we are in modern era. So you have to emphasize Indian/Hindu culture and regional/Hindu culture to balance out english culture. THAT IS MY POINT!

          “Brahmanas were advisers but not administrators. Hope you understand the difference between the two. ”

          No, you obviously don’t. A samadhatr is a chancellor. He does not advise–he is an administrator himself. Pushyamitra Sunga was a brahmana, but he was also commander in chief of Mauryan army forces. We had brahmin dharmadhyakhas who were judges. This has been the case for thousands of years. There are vaidiki brahmins and niyogi brahmins–understand the difference. This is kali yuga not satya yuga.

          Niyogi Brahmanas

          “About six-thousand intelligent Brahmins, capable of administration, management with warfare skills were chosen to help Kshatriyas (ruling caste of India) in desperate need in defending the Indian country, by piloting the Royal vimanas (chariots) in war and in peace. There is a different opinion about the 6000 Brahmins as they were chosen by the merit for performing secular profession”

          So first learn before blabbering like an imbecile.

          “The question is not about what is more important. It’s about where the emphasis should be when revisiting our past.”

          No, it is about both. Because more important matter is what should be emphasized. We all have to follow basic morality/righteousness as hindus (i.e. mathru devo bhava, etc). Then comes kulachar. If people don’t care about dharma, then they won’t care about kulachar (they will just convert). If people care about dharma, then they will care about kulachar. So get them to care about dharma FIRST.

          “Firstly, had we got the sense of dharma, the very idea of Brahmins as oppressors would not even have erupted in our mindset. ”

          You just proved my point. Dharma comes first, then anti-brahmin propaganda goes away.

          “The power to execute this lies only with Jaathi as that’s probably the only identity that surpasses the religious identity.”

          No, because pandora’s box has been opened. You buddhus still don’t realize that technology has changed things. Education is now must for all. Computers were not there thousand years ago. So rather than focus on jaati, focus on dharma. Then people can do modern jobs thinking of dharma while following kulachar as best they can at home.

          “What culture are you talking about here? Show me unique aspects of the Andhra culture versus the TamilNadu culture besides the language.”

          Kuchipudi, Andhra natya, Annamayya, burrakatha, Vemana padhya, bhogi, pulihora, bapu artistry, etc etc. This is all part of samskruthi. You are thinking of kulachar UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE.

          “The very identity Dalit itself is an alien invention. We never had any community called Dalit ever in the past.”

          But we had “panchama” or “chandala” terms. Dalit is merely another way of saying same thing.

          “You’ve conveniently ignored my point. If you accept with my stand on islamization then why use the term urduization at all? ”

          No dummy, you accepted my point. STOP LYING. I am the one who spoke of love jehad. The term urduization is used because not all songs about religion (i.e. some about romance). But use of urdu promotes culture interest in perso-urdu culture, to promote islam. You have to understand and tackle the urdu tactic to tackle the big problem. That is called strategic thinking

          “If there was one community which the evangelists found extremely difficult to convert (eventually failed) across the country, it was the Brahmins.”

          Not everyone is a brahmin. You cannot use same solution for all communities. And today, even in US there are brahmin converts to christianity due to loss of language and loss of culture… So even caste pride–no matter how excessive and rooting in ahankar–can be circumvented. You have to understand changed circumstances.

          “By the way the Brahmins never focused on language whatsoever.”

          Duffer talk. Brahmins themselves nurtured Telugu literature. First educate yourself then talk.

          “Again, you are conveniently ignoring my question. Are you okay with islamization if the muslims agree to keep Telugu as their official language in Andhra? The language has nothing to do with culture. ”

          No, buddhu. Even Malhotra has talked of language and culture being connected. You are the only moron denying that connect.

          I also ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. ARE YOU BLIND? READ AGAIN:

          “To defend against their other strategies for conversions even in telugu speaking state, you need 1. a dharmic government at state and/or national level 2. brahmanas and other knowledgeable people to educate masses on religious lessons and importance of our dharmic culture and identity, not only though bala vikas but also through tv/movies, etc. This will reinforce upadesam

          This is not 1 or the other–we must do all. ”

          The point is language culture push is to tackle urduization and engllish dominance. Second step is to get knowledgeable people to give educate masses on religion. Third step is dharmic government. I ALREADY EXPLAINED.

          “You are taking the discussion in to a different direction. We never denied your above statements. Also we never said that different jaathi people should not gather together to fight against our enemies. ”

          When you say start with Jatis rather than starting with General dharma–that is what you are doing–splitting people up. First unite them under dharma, then you can say “ok we need people to do this duty, and we need these other people to do other duty”. If people don’t care about dharma, they don’t care about jatis. If people care about dharma then they will care about jatis. You have the order wrong.

          “You propose the linguistic lens, we propose the ethnic lens.”

          Jati is not ethnicity. Language groups are. If you say jati is ethnic group–you are only proving missionaries right. They are the ones saying jati is ethnicity/race.

          Right now, people don’t even care about language groups in many cases (esp among elite). They all want to be anglicized or urdusized. First prevent that, then people will think about dharma, then they will think about jati. Get the order right. Dalit jatis convert in false hope to lose their Dalit tag. Linguistic lens is nothing but the cultural group approach senthil was talking about only in a MODERN way. Desams are effectively obsolete approach now. Bundelkhand is not an ancient identity but is a modern one.

          “At last I’m happy you finally agreed. So, you agree that language culture is a modern invention?”

          No dummy, I clearly said this:
          “/I have also shown that language culture is the modern “cultural region” that will protect lower castes from missionary propaganda//”

          Senthil promotes desam (which is culture region)
          I promote language culture (which is culture region)

          Linguistic states have protected our ancient desam cultures. Maharashtra is combination of two desams (asmaka and vidarbha) that have more in common today than with others. Gujarat is similar combination of desams that have more in common with eachother than others. Andhra was single desam. Orissa was collection of two desams that MERGED to create Oriya culture ruled by Gajapathi Suryavanshis.

          Madras presidency was the colonial invention. Hyderabad was colonial invention, Bombay presidency was the colonial invention. Lingustic states broke that apart and allowed for strong preservation of regional samskruthi against urduizing/anglicizing Nehru. Linguistic states prevented everyone from making urdu mother tongue or english mother tongue. Urdu uniformity would have made islamization that much easier. Linguistic states prevented that danger. Next danger is tackling missionary propaganda through our brahmanas and other learned people. Third is get a dharmic government. These are solutions, not obsolete or made up desams.

          Our goal of protecting sanatana dharma is the same. Only you are living in past. I am aware of past, but recognize modern reality. That is the difference. Krishna would ignore small wrong (ashwattama attaha) for greater good of defeating evil. We must do the same.

          I think you need to learn english properly, Clearly you are having trouble understanding what I am saying and wasting everybody’s time.

  40. Surya Ramachandran says:

    How can I expect the Andhra people to revive Telugu language, when it has been degraded in the last few decades ? There is still chances that Teulgu language may develop when Telengana is formed. In what way is Jagan reddy helping here – he himself is a missionary. Given that seemandhra people themselves do not have strong leader like Potti Sriramalu, is it right for seemandhra people to criticize kcr ? Even today Andhra people do not go beyond Congress/YSR.

    • vyas says:

      Surya – This is not a problem with Andhra alone. It’s a problem with other states too. By projecting the linguistic identities all other identities have been completely trivialized. Today, people of India are forced to give up their jaathi/kula identities for stupid, fit for nothing, superficially created linguistic identities. Unless we get rid of these identities and start focusing outside the linguistic prison, we’ll keep succumbing to conversions.

      • nyaya says:

        The point is to use linguistic identity to reinforce RELIGIOUS identity. Otherwise missionary will himself define you, your language, and your culture and create hate against OUR religion.

        If religious identity is reinforced, then people are more receptive to you jaati/kula concerns. but you have it backwards. Even senthil already admitted that cultural regions (which i called language regions) will dilute dalit susceptibility to missionaries. You cannot let missionary control language like caldwell did–then they will say brahmanas actually non-tamil. That is danger.

        Instead, you use tamil to reassert the hindu nature of culture, by using history/samskruti to show tamils are part of hinduism. Because tamil itself grew out of hindu tradition via Agasthya muni. Teach the proper history of your cultural region.

        Conversions in Andhra were due to adharmic government at center and YSR. They channeled huge funds to convert poor people in coast regions. To counter this, hindus must be better at daana and upadesa. We have to spread culture on our terms rather than have outsiders define our culture for us.

    • nyaya says:

      Yes, he and his brother in law and his father –all missionaries. Where have I supported jagan. Many andhra people already know his game. It is fixed match for congress to collect both telangana and seemandhra votes.

      Telugu culture has become degraded because people only focus on pop culture (filmy nonsense, cricket). Who reads prabandhas or vemana padhyas? Who is properly taught about vijayanagara and kakatiya dynasty? Who reads Andhra Mahabharatamu? That is my point. Brahmanas, general elders, and parents have to encourage youth to not only do well in school and get good marks/degrees, but to learn our High Culture, and through it, gain interest in Dharma and moral living. Not everyone interested in reading dharma sastra and purana. But we must use non-religious medium of poetry and drama/stories to teach religious morality (like panchatantra does).

      But these days parents aren’t even ensuring children learn Telugu properly–so why will children care about vemana/or even thiruvalluvar? Appreciation for language leads to appreciation for language’s literature which in turn will lead to appreciation of religious/dharma literature, and ultimately dharma..

      Thus if schools fail at teaching HIGH culture, parents and elders must teach children.

      Not all Andhra people supported YSR/Congress. Only mass people and reddy caste did. Middle class support preferred TDP which stood for Andhra rather than congress chamcha giri. People voted for congress in Andhra for same reason they voted for congress in rest of India–masses are illiterate and selfish. To counter this, we must educate them in samskruti and dharma.

  41. Surya Ramachandran says:

    Dont you think people will turn inward, if andhra people after becoming succesful live in Andhra instead of Hyderabad ? There is a BIG problem in Andhra, successful people are becoming elites. But staying away from seemandhra they are “outcasted”. Again they do mingle with Telengana people. So in essence Indians are becoming migrants. Formation of telengana may curb this.

  42. nyaya says:

    @ Surya, not sure if this is addressed to me, or what you are trying to say.

    Is your concern that Telangana will cause insularity or united AP with more Telugu samskruti?

    Also, we probably should not conflate the hindu practice of “outcasting” with current economic elite class system.

    I will assume you meant united AP being insular. To address that I will say this–there is no distinct traditional telangana culture. Their heroes are our heroes. Their poets are our poets. Their indigenous kings were our indigenous kings. PVNR was a telangana brahmin–but he supported United Andhra. All Telugus are proud of him. Senthil has been silent on this fact.
    Lastly, the great irony is that you people don’t realize that Hyderabad state Telugus in colonial time did not call their organization Telangana Mahasabha or Telugu Mahasabha, but Nizam ANDHRA mahasabha.

    Telangana-Andhra differences were due to arrival of islamic turks. I called this persianization-urduization (stealth Islamization), even vyas finally got the message that this is just a step to change religion of Telangana hindus. Why should there be a different state just because people use a few more urdu words and urdu dishes? When people from coastal Andhra moved to hyderabad–they took picked up some urdu. It does not mean their culture has changed.

    Creation of Telangana merely gives credibility to “composite culture” nonsense of pseudo secs who put mughal culture above our vedic culture and hindu dharma. United Andhra focused on Telugu Samskruti (and by extension rooted in Hindu dharma) will push back against hyderabadi urdu shurdi and keep our people within our fold.

    • Surya Ramachandran says:

      So you are saying there is NO distinct Telengana culture. If that is true, I don’t support Telengana.

      • nyaya says:

        There isn’t. Just more urdu/muslim influence in telangana due to longer rule by golconda sultans and nizam. Telangana was used by YSR to split TDP vote to gain power. After YSR gained power, he ignored KCR.

        Sonia recreated telangana because congress will lose andhra in 2014 (which previously gave congress maximum seats in 2004 and 2009). By splitting Andhra, they think they will at least get 10 seats from new telangana state.

        This will also help owaisi jehadis who want to recreated hyderabad nizam state and convert everybody.Nizam used to forcibly convert also. That is the danger of giving a stealth hyderabad state. Zed already talked about this above. That is why owaisis have nerve to call for urdu as a first language of telangana. If telangana has distinct hindu/dharma based identity, why is urdu the language?

  43. vyas says:

    //I am the one who brought up point about love jehad and pakistanis. Urduization only 1 prong towards the goal of Islamization.//

    Then you should not have brought in urduization at all . By the way you still haven’t answered my question. Are you ready to accept islamization if all muslims agree to keep Telugu as their official language? You’ve never given a straight answer to this question despite me asking it for the third time. I know you’ll never be able to answer this because your approach at looking into the past is blatantly wrong.

    //Senthil and you are now lying that there is proof for Telangana desam–there is none//

    I’ve told you several times that the question here is not about Telengana or Telugu Desam. The matter of discussion here is about the Desams, the concept using which the Bharatha Varsha was divided. You are clearly exhibiting your linguistic chauvinism here. I’m neither against formation of Telengana nor for it. I’m only against bifurcations of states based on linguistics. Also our primary discussion was if our past needs to be seen from a linguistic or a ethnic perspective. You simply could not answer our basic questions regarding the same.

    //People protesting in small towns across seemandhra have no money invested.//

    The protest for Telengana has been going on for several years. What were you people doing all these years? Even now if KCR agrees to give back Hyderabad to Seemandhara all these protests will vanish. Just read the post below.

    http://www.firstpost.com/politics/hyderabad-why-telangana-seemandhra-are-fighting-1159907.html

    //. Dharm and Kulachaar are NOT SAME. Kulachar is a COMPONENT of Dharma. DHARMA IS ABOVE KULACHAR. Even a child can understand this simple concept.//

    The problem with you is that you think of dharma as ONE single entity. This is a typical Abrahamic mindset. Aacharams are an integral part of one’s dharma. Not following one’s aachaarams is considered adharmic. So there is no question of one being important than the other.

    //Protecting dharma means restoring morality and righteousness//

    How do you do that? Following one’s aachaaram doesn’t restore that? Just THINK.

    //“Sri Krishna doesn’t say “varnashrama dharma samsthapanarthaya…”, he says “dharma samsthapanarthaya… “. Get people interested in Dharma first, then you may have a chance at your preferred system of jati-desa organization.”//

    I don’t understand why you are completely distorting Krishna’s verses. His mention of dharma is from a larger context. Also it is very clearly evident from his verses that Dharma is not one single entity. You can’t expect him to quote every dharma out there, which is why he is using dharma in general. According to our scriptures every animate and inanimate object too is governed by the rules of dharma.

    Your other comments doesn’t warrant an explanation. You are a typical example of a internet hindu whose knowledge on scriptures is half baked and mostly influenced by the teachings of modern Hindu gurus.

    I think we’ve come a long way past our main point of discussion. If you have the guts answer these basic questions first.

    1. Was there anything called a language culture in ancient India?
    2. Show me one verse from our scriptures which talks about language as being the representative of culture.

    Answer these questions first and then we’ll proceed further.

    • nyaya says:

      Then you should not have brought in urduization at all you idiot. By the way you still haven’t answered my question.”

      Urduization is a strategy for Islamization you buffoon. CAN”T YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? You have to tackle that also.

      ” Are you ready to accept islamization if all muslims agree to keep Telugu as their official language?

      I ALREADY SAID NO, YOU COGNITIVE DEFICIENT–I EVEN GAVE YOU QUOTE–WHO IS IGNORING your stupid question??!! I SAID FIRST COUNTER URDU THROUGH TELUGU/TAMIL/SANKRIT Culture. SECOND step is to have brahmanas and learned people teach dharma to parents and tell parents to teach dharma to children. THIRD get a Dharmic government.

      ” I’ve told you several times that the question here is not about Telengana or Telugu Desam”

      I very clearly told you that cultural regions in Modern India are aggregations based on local languages. That is reality. Gujaratis brahmins from saurashtra and lata have more in common than orissa brahmins from utkala and kalinga. That is the point. Understand it. That is how to defend Bharatavarsha.

      “Also our primary discussion was if our past needs to be seen from a linguistic or a ethnic perspective.”

      If you don’t have the knowledge or ability, zip up. You yourself have admitted you lack knowledge of Andhra yet still you are blabbing. Andhra is an ethnicity base on language. If you split up tamil nadu based on your desams, you create a missionary monster around kanya kumari (they are already calling it kanya maryam). But you are too stupid to even address this point. You keep ignoring thinking if you attack me, people will forget.

      “The protest for Telengana has been going on for several years. What were you people doing all these years?”

      There were counter protests in 2009 by seemandhra people! That is what stopped it then. Threat that seemandhra peopel would resign and Congress government will fall. Now congress is going to election anyway, so doesn’t matter if seemandhra MPs resign.

      “The problem with you is that you think of dharma as ONE single entity. ”

      I just showed you that Dharma is fundamentally about morality. Kulachar and varnashrama dharma create a society that PRESERVES MORALITY. Varnashrama dharma is the MEANS to the END. Morality already defined below (READ IT and EDUCATE YOURSELF).

      Dharma is one entity, with different components. Brahmanas teach and conduct yajna to preserve it, Kshatriyas govern and fight to protect it, Vaisyas generate wealth to empower it, and Shudras give labor to energize it. All four are needed for dharmic desas and rajyas. People of all castes are still Dharmiks. Dharma is one entity MANY COMPONENTS.

      “How do you do that? Following one’s aachaaram doesn’t restore that? Just THINK.”

      Understand how missionaries think and talk, then you can type. Missionary tells dalit he will be a king or big rich man. You tell dalit to be a tanner–which will he pick?

      ” According to our scriptures every animate and inanimate object too is governed by the rules of dharma.”

      You just proved my point, you oaf. Dharma governs us all. Kulachara is specific to certain people.

      You don’t even have knowledge to address the difference between karma kanda, jnana kanda, and upasana kanda. So how are you even qualified to comment let alone tell people what to do? <

      You are the useful idiots missionaries and jehadis point to scare dalits. This wins converts for them.

      “I think we’ve come a long way past our main point of discussion. If you have the guts answer these basic questions first.”

      You FAILED TO ANSWER MY EARLIER QUESTIONS BELOW . ANSWER THESE QUESTION FIRST–THEN WE WILL PROCEED:

      1.Caste politics. “b. what are your solutions for congress and mim playing caste politics to divide hindus but unify minority votes?“”

      2. National language. “This is the problem with provincial navel gazers–how does national government operate?–must everything be translated in 3000 dialects”?

  44. vyas says:

    //Also Krishna showed Dharma is above mere kulachar. Bhima broke kulachar by hitting Duryodhana in thigh. //

    You fail to understand that you break from the bounds of one dharma to uphold another. That’s what the Pandavas did. You are not talking sense when you say Kalaachar is above Dharma. You can probably say something like Kula dharma supercedes svadharma.

    //First priority is Dharma–righteous behavior, which I have defined above//

    Where do you get that righteous behavior from, my friend? Is there one righteous behavior that’s common for all?

    • nyaya says:

      “That’s what the Pandavas did. You are not talking sense when you say Kalaachar is above Dharma. ”

      I didn’t say that dummy, I said the opposite. I said DHARMA ABOVE KULACHAR. you have it backwards.

      “Where do you get that righteous behavior from, my friend? Is there one righteous behavior that’s common for all?”

      Yes–morality! Obey and respect parents, younger should respect elder, obey and respect guru, honor the learned, no illicit sex, no substance abuse, don’t kill innocents, strong should protect the weak, do not cheat people, give charity to poor, be kind to people, worship God. This is basic morality which is the cornerstone of dharma and common to ALL jatis.

      • vyas says:

        //I said DHARMA ABOVE KULACHAR//

        Which Dharma?

        //Yes–morality! Obey and respect parents, younger should respect elder, obey and respect guru, honor the learned, no illicit sex, no substance abuse, don’t kill innocents, strong should protect the weak, do not cheat people, give charity to poor, be kind to people, worship God. This is basic morality which is the cornerstone of dharma and common to ALL jatis.//

        That’s nonsense. Can you follow the morality elements you quoted above at all times? Arjuna had enormous respect for his guru, but he eventually killed him in the final war. In fact killing the guru is the ultimate crime in our culture. But Arjuna’s kshatriya dharma took precedence over everything else at that time. There is neither one rule nor one dharma for all. Dharma works at different levels. You break one dharma only to uphold another.

        • nyaya says:

          “Which Dharma?”

          Which Dharma is Krishna talking about? When he says “dharma samsthaapa…”

          “Arjuna had enormous respect for his guru, but he eventually killed him in the final war. In fact killing the guru is the ultimate crime in our culture. ”

          No you idiot, Arjuna DIDN”T KILL DRONA. DHRISHTADYUMNA KILLED DRONA!

          You don’t even know Mahabharata, hahaha!

          Krishna wanted Arjuna to defeat his guru because his guru himself fought on the side of Adharma. Drona fought for Duryodhana. Duryodhana did not respect morality–he was younger but disrespected Elder (yudhisthira). He cheated Yudhisthira out of his kingdom in game of dice, He had Dushasana publicly strip Draupadi—This is immorality.

          If Drona fights for Duryodhana, then he is supporting Adharma–and therefore, fit to be killed. Thus killing a guru who supports Adharma on the battlefied is NOT A CRIME.

          Neither do you know Mahabharata nor do you understand Dharma–what right do you even have to continue to discuss. Sit at home in shame…

          • vyas says:

            //No you idiot, Arjuna DIDN”T KILL DRONA. DHRISHTADYUMNA KILLED DRONA! //

            I apologize for this mistake. “I was about to say Arjuna was forced to fight his own guru which was a crime”. But don’t try to hide your stupid inabilities by ballooning such issues.

            //Krishna wanted Arjuna to defeat his guru because his guru himself fought on the side of Adharma. Drona fought for Duryodhana. Duryodhana did not respect morality–he was younger but disrespected Elder (yudhisthira). He cheated Yudhisthira out of his kingdom in game of dice, He had Dushasana publicly strip Draupadi—This is immorality.//

            What constitutes Adharma? Is Adharma always the same for everyone?

            //I SAID FIRST COUNTER URDU THROUGH TELUGU/TAMIL/SANKRIT Culture.//

            Urduization cannot be countered with Telugu or Sanskrit . Were you able to counter English with Telugu? Your strategy is mindless. As I mentioned before, your Andhra people already speak more mother tongue than any other state. Their love of language is very high already. Why then you still have issues? Come out out of the stupid language boundary first and then approach this issue.

            //SECOND step is to have brahmanas and learned people teach dharma to parents and tell parents to teach dharma to children. THIRD get a Dharmic government. //

            What dharma are you going to teach? And who are you going to teach it to? Are you going to teach the same dharma to all? We have unique dharma for each Jaathi. Will you teach the same Jaathi dharma for all? Stop your rubbish comments.

            //Have humility when you don’t know something–don’t pretend like you are giving solutions. Remember, you attempted to rebut my arguments by saying no telugu culture. You didn’t ask “is there telugu culture”. Don’t lie.//

            Our shastras never advocated language culture. If there was some culture by the name of the language it would have been created by morons like you. Similarly the DK morons too talk about Tamil culture in TamilNadu which is bull shit. Our kings never identified themselves with their language. Their main identity was their kulam and desam.

            //Samskruthi is not purely religious in nature. Kulachar is itself based on religion//

            First define religion you idiot.

            //Europeans dominate the world, so their definitions are what are taught to our kids because of our colonial education system and because everyone wants to work for MNC’s or Indian english speaking elite companies..//

            Wow!!! Initially you said English language dominates the world and now you say Europeans.

            //We have indian students speaking to parents at home in english in India//

            So what? You people don’t even know the techniques to segregate language and culture. I can talk 100% English and still follow my path of dharma. Language has nothing to do with it.

            // Going back to kulachar doesn’t solve the problem because we are in modern era//

            That’s your stupid perception. Admit that you do not know how to maintain your kula dharma in modern times. Modernity is not at all contradictory to tradition depending on how you approach it.

            //No, you obviously don’t. A samadhatr is a chancellor. He does not advise–he is an administrator himself. Pushyamitra Sunga was a brahmana, but he was also commander in chief of Mauryan army forces//

            Hahaha….You accuse Senthil of showing wikipedia articles but you pasted about Niyogi Brahmins directly from it. How cunning. A Niyogi Brahmin is a person who has given up vaideeha dharma. He is not a true Brahmin anymore. So, all your arguments are now void.

            //You just proved my point. Dharma comes first, then anti-brahmin propaganda goes away. //

            You twist and twirl the arguments according to your wish and put the blame on others. What do you mean by Dharma comes first. Then what does kula dharma mean? What does svadharma mean? What does varna dharma mean?

            //Kuchipudi, Andhra natya, Annamayya, burrakatha, Vemana padhya, bhogi, pulihora, bapu artistry, etc etc.//

            All these arts existed throughout the country in various forms. It exists in TamilNadu too under different names.

            //Not everyone is a brahmin//

            I think you lack common sense completely. I’m not asking everyone to become a Brahmin which is impossible. I’m only asking you to investigate why the missionaries could not convert Brahmins in a large scale.

            //Duffer talk. Brahmins themselves nurtured Telugu literature. First educate yourself then talk.//

            Brahmins embraced Tamil too. In fact they contributed much more to Tamil than any other community. So what? Their emphasis was not on language but on culture. They had love for their mathru baasha but were never obsessionists like you.

            //Even Malhotra has talked of language and culture being connected//

            This is what I too have been saying . They are connected that’s all. But language can never become a culture.

            You are one prime example of a linguistic chauvinist produced as a result of bifurcation of states based on linguistics. The current division of states will only create more chauvinists like you. This is what we protest against. Having said that I stand by my words. Language can never become a culture. Only aachaarams can become a culture. Language is a bunch of words. That’s all. It doesn’t have any significance beyond that.

            You want to debate more on this. Come on. I’m ready to take the challenge.

          • nyaya says:

            “What constitutes Adharma? Is Adharma always the same for everyone? Think before you write you idiot.”

            Vyas does not know the difference between achara and dharma. Adharma is about immorality, Dharma is fundamentally about morality. kulachara is a component of dharma, and below it. This had been explained many times,

            “Urduization cannot be countered with Telugu or Sanskrit. ”

            Telangana alleged culture difference was actually due to urduization. So kcr people were saying their own language is full of urdu. The solution to this is to encourage traditional telugu to defeat urduization

            “What dharma are you going to teach?”

            Rama was a ksatriya, but he is considered the ideal man because he behaved morally–that is why he is called Maryada Purushottam. He is example for all men. Even brahmanas learn from his example. That is the dharma that must be taught. That is the dharma that Krishna came to reestablish.

            “Our shastras never advocated language culture… Similarly the DK morons too talk about Tamil culture in TamilNadu which is bull shit.”

            Vyas doesn’t realize that language exists whether he likes it or not. Masses only know 1 language. So dharma/morality has to be taught to them in native tongue only. Don’t need sastras to tell you that.

            Vyas dont understand that big banks operate out of Switzerland and catholic church based in Vatican and Italy–that is europe and europeans colonized and formed America, which is a Western country (aka white/european heritage). He doesn’t realize that english language comes from europe and transmits that culture…

            “Modernity is not at all contradictory to tradition depending on how you approach it.”

            Vyas he thinks he can stop dalits from converting to christianity and islam by telling them to be tanners rather than doctors because that is their jati karma.

            “Hahaha….You accuse Senthil of showing wikipedia articles but you pasted about Niyogi Brahmins directly from it.”

            Vyas doesn’t realize that Senthil said there was traditional dharmic basis for telangana, but when asked–he gave wiki article.

            Vyas said all brahmins are vaideeha. This is not vedic/shastric matter but simple socio-historical fact that there were and are Niyogi brahmins. Nowhere have I said I was a Niyogi. And what basis does a dubashi brahmin have to give arguments, especially when he himself admitted he got basic facts of Mahabharata wrong and uses prolific profanity. This is the problem with caste obsessed morons–no logic, no brains, again, due to low IQ.

  45. vyas says:

    //Sanatana dharma is under threat//

    Good joke. This one statement proves enough that you don’t even understand the basics of Sanathana dharma.

    //Sanatana Dharma needs solutions to defeat these threats//

    Again completely junk interpretation. Sanatana Dharma is the solution indeed. It doesn’t need any solution.

    //Rajiv Malhotra is doing precisely that. He researches and gives solutions//

    Rajiv Malhotra is not god. You can’t expect me to accept whatever he talks about. He has committed grave mistakes when interpreting our dharma. He is of the opinion that Jaathi is not by birth, which is blatantly wrong. By the way nobody give any solution, they can only give their opinion.

    //kama (lust), krodha (wrath), lobha (greed), moha (attachment), mada (pride), matsarya(jealousy)–These are the fundamental enemies of man.//

    Okay will you stop having sex after marriage? This is the fundamental problem with internet Hindus like you. What was prescribed for sanyasis have and Yogi have been blindly mapped to common people without any thought process. These are required for common man to survive. Our shastras divided human life into 4 stages. What you said is applicable to people in the third and predominantly the fourth stage. Our gurus are mindlessly prescribing this for everyone.

    • nyaya says:

      “This one statement proves enough that you don’t even understand the basics of Sanathana dharma.”

      Vyas doesn’t realize that Sanatana dharma is under threat despite Rajiv Malhotra himself repeatedly stating this.

      “Sanatana Dharma is the solution indeed. ”

      Vyas doesn’t realize he himself is contradicting Rajiv Malhotra, who said this attitude is not enough, people have to face these threats as baudhik kshatriyas, not just give cowardly excuses about kulachar.

      “Rajiv Malhotra is not god. You can’t expect me to accept whatever he talks about. He has committed grave mistakes when interpreting our dharma. ”

      Vyas has done nothing worthy of mention but elevates himself above Rajiv Malhotra who gave up lucrative business to do purva paksha and defend dharma, publishing many many books exposing mleccha stealth attacks through culture, finance, and academic politics.

      “Okay will you stop having sex after marriage?”

      Vyas is so stupid he doesn’t know difference between lust and lawful sex. Sex with spouse is permitted after marriage and in moderation. It is not the same as lust. So Vyas apparently doesn’t even know what lust is…

  46. vyas says:

    I think we’ve had enough of it. Let me give my conclusions in your style :-)

    - Nyaya is truly unqualified to answer my questions. He simply doesn’t posses enough knowledge to do so.

    - Nyaya needs to understand that this forum is not created for discussing the works for Rajiv Malhotra. It is created for providing one’s own views.

    - Nyaya doesn’t know anything about his own state and culture. He is simply equating Andhra to Telugu (just like TamilNadu is being equated to the Tamils) and doing grave injustice to his own people.

    - Nyaya doesn’t have a shred of evidence to prove that language is culture. When asked he quotes Rajiv as usual, as if Rajiv is the ultimate authority on Sanathana Dharma

    - When Nyaya is asked to prove something, he immediately looks up his shakespearean dictionary and finds out a English word to shut his opponent (he thinks he can). This is the cheapest method of doing a debate. Looks like he wants to show off his English language skills in this blog. The irony is, it is people like him that talk about the importance of regional languages :-)

    - Nyaya is bitten by the Abrahamic bug. He portrays Mahabharatha and Ramayana as bibles of India. He does not have an inch of an idea that there are far more texts that exist in this country and not everyone is mandated to study Mahabharatha and Ramayana. He believes that a person who does not know Ramayana/Mahabharatha is unfit to live. This shows his bureaucracy.

  47. nyaya says:

    Relationship between language and culture repeated many times above as all can see–even Senthil accepted this.

    “Rajiv left his job only after making millions. He is not in the streets now.”

    Poor pathetic Vyas, does not realize that artha is the origin of dharma as even Chanakya states. Sukhasya moolam, dharmam, Dharmasya moolam artham, Arthasya moolam Rajyam, Rajasya moolam indriya vijayam. This is from Arthashastra itself of which a buffoon like vyas has no understanding of or eligibility to read.

    “- Nyaya doesn’t know anything about his own state and culture. He is simply equating Andhra to Telugu (just like TamilNadu is being equated to the Tamils) and doing grave injustice to his own people.”

    Poor pathetic vyas himself admitted his incompetence on Andhra/Telangana–so who is he to rate my knowledge. See again, how he lies about my knowledge after I have given history lesson.

    “- Nyaya doesn’t have a shred of evidence to prove that language is culture. When asked he quotes Rajiv as usual, as if Rajiv is the ultimate authority on Sanathana Dharma”

    vyas is too stupid to understand the relationship between language and culture which has been explained to him many, many times.

    In summation vyas was defeated in debate because:

    1. He admitted to having pathetic knowledge of Mahabharata–which is an important expository on Dharma, especially in the kali yuga

    2. He ignorantly sputtered nonsense saying ““Knowledge of Mahabharatha/Ramayana is least important in our culture. ”. Even school girls will laugh at this.

    3. He was to ever respond to my question on how to tackle caste politics if MIM/Congress use caste to divide hindus while unifying their own minority vote banks.

    4. He was too cowardly to answer how orders could be given in 3000 dialects on the battlefield if there was no indian national language.

    5.He doesn’t realize I have debunked senthil’s point about Kalinga being uttarandhra as false.

    6. He doesn’t realize I have also proven that telangana as a desam was false.

    7. He does doesn’t realize that I myself had pointed out the dangers of islamization through urduization, when i spoke of love jehad, but he lied. He was too stupid to realize that urduization was itself a stepping stone to islamization

    8. He himself admitted he didn’t have the appropriate knowledge on Telangana–not realizing that undercut his attacking my pro-United Andhra position. He wasted everyone’s time making uneducated points that were quickly disproved. Then he began spewing nonsense.

    9. He conflates kulachar with culture and dharma. He also lied saying I said kulachar above dharma when I wrote the exact opposite and gave proof.

  48. Suryaprakash says:

    When people have given facts showing you were mistaken, accept. Doesn’t matter who you are. I don’t know merits of so called desa system, but uttarandhra is not ancient kalinga–orissa is–facts prove.

    Similarly kulachar is not culture. Samskruthi is. Others have even said this. Further, vyas, nyaya may play irritating debate games but he has shown you were wrong repeatedly about Mahabharata, kulachara, Urdu connexion with love-jehd, and missionary tactics.You also admitted not knowing much about telangana history

    • vyas says:

      //When people have given facts showing you were mistaken, accept//

      What kind of facts Mr Surya? I open heartedly accepted my misquotation with Mahabharatha. Did Nyaya behave with dignity in response to that? I repeatedly told him that I’m here to learn and not fight, but it was he who constantly irritated me and Senthil .

      //Further, vyas, nyaya may play irritating debate games but he has shown you were wrong repeatedly about Mahabharata, kulachara, Urdu connexion with love-jehd, and missionary tactics//

      Should I not counter his arguments? Should I blindly accept whatever he says? His very idea about language, culture, conversion is junk according to me. Should I not defend that? Also we’ve already discussed about these topics at length in other articles in this forum.

      //You also admitted not knowing much about telangana history //

      Don’t commit the same mistake like Nyaya. He never listens. I’m not raising the question of Telengana at all. I’m only vouching my support for non-linguistic states.

  49. vyas says:

    //then he will see my extensive discussion of Telanga/Andhra history–in which vyas himself admitted his lack of knowledge.//

    First of all do you have a sense of history? You keep equating Andhra with Telugu mindlessly which is pathetically wrong.

    //Poor pathetic vyas himself admitted his incompetence on Andhra/Telangana–so who is he to rate my knowledge//

    You have absolutely no sense of history whatsoever. You are branding kula identities with language which is the most stupidest thing one can do. And by the way you are yet to show me one piece of evidence from our scriptures for prove language is culture. You simply can’t show it because there is nothing like that.

    //He ignorantly sputtered nonsense saying ““Knowledge of Mahabharatha/Ramayana is least important in our culture. ”. Even school girls will laugh at this//

    I stand by my words. There are far more texts than Ramayana and Mahabharatha in this country and a substantial amount of people did follow that. Tirukkural is full of dharmic messages and several people in different parts of TamilNadu followed it. Mahabharatha and Ramayana are two great texts no doubt but that doesn’t make them the bibles of this nation. This is why I said your knowledge about our history is absolutely zero.

    //He was too cowardly to ever respond to my question on how to tackle caste politics if MIM/Congress use caste to divide hindus while unifying their own minority vote banks//

    Shows your stupidity. We have discussed about these issues a ton times in this forum in the past years. If you know to read English, go and read all those articles,

    //He was too cowardly to answer how orders could be given in 3000 dialects on the battlefield if there was no indian national language.//

    I’ve told you several times that the very idea of national language is colonial construct. In addition to this, the people who constitute the battefield represent a very minimal percentage. You don’t need to designate a national language for the same. You can make them speak any single language that they decide to use. I don’t care even if it’s English.

    //He doesn’t realize I have debunked senthil’s point about Kalinga being uttarandhra as false.//

    That’s irrelevant. You definitely need some treatment. I’ve already told you that the question is not about the boundaries of Telangana. The question is about the bifurcation of state based on language which I’m totally against.

    //He does doesn’t realize that I myself had pointed out the dangers of islamization through urduization, when i spoke of love jehad, but he lied. He was too stupid to realize that urduization was itself a stepping stone to islamization//

    You can’t stop islamization even if you are successful in curbing urduization. TamilNadu and Kerala too have this love jihad issue, despite the fact that the muslims over there speak only the regional languages. In fact, in Kerala the Love Jihad is far worse than any other state. You don’t even know what’s happening in your neighbor states,

    //He himself admitted he didn’t have the appropriate knowledge on Telangana–not realizing that undercut his attacking my pro-United Andhra position. He wasted everyone’s time making uneducated points that were quickly disproved. Then he began spewing nonsense//

    I’m least bothered about the borders of Telengana but I do support bifurcation of state based on ethnicity. I want every state in India to be divided this way. There is a proposal already in table for creating 50 states and slowly people are thronging with requests for the same. The kongu community in TamilNadu is already raising such demands and there are some voices alongside of madurai too which demand for a separate state. I’d love to see new states evolve in this fashion in the near future.

    //He conflates kulachar with culture and dharma. He also lied saying I said kulachar above dharma when I wrote the exact opposite and gave proof.//

    Your misinterpretations cannot be accepted as proof.

    //he has shown that not only is he lacking requisite knowledge of culture and dharma//

    Do you think you and your guru have enough knowledge about our culture and dharma? You people are spoiling our literature by injecting highly poisonous interpretations.

    • nyaya says:

      Kulachara is not samskriti, many people have said this now. So point is clear.

      When the topic itself is on telangana and people themselves admit to not knowing much about andhra/telangana–how can they rate the knowledge of others?

      Merely telling people telling people to read scripture is not proof of your own knowledge–especially when you have already admitted elementary mistakes on Mahabharata.

      Fellow who admitted he doesn’t know much about Andhra cannot know in fact that Andhra and Telugu are equated. Even ethnologue uses them as synonyms because Andhra tribe was the first to be established and mentioned in Aitareya brahmana. Telugu was also called Andhra bhasha.

      People who do not know the difference between kulachara and samskrit have no business lecturing on caste and jati–particularly when jati wasn’t even mentioned in the quote he used.

      People who put thirukkural above or on par with Ramayana and Mahabharata only show who the language chauvinist is. This is an insult to Lord Narayana himself.

      People who don’t have courage to answer what language orders have to be given by army on battlefied only show how impractical they are. They have no practical solutions, only navel gazing theory, otherwise national language need is obvious.

      People who don’t understand that kerala is undergoing arabization themselves show how ignorant they are and unqualified to comment on love jehad.

      50 state proposal is itself foolish. Will create more mini-pakistans and new nagalands. This is what happens when navel-gazers give solutions without thinking through all consequences. Only rote memorization–no analytical capacity.

  50. Suryaprakash says:

    I don’t care about language desa business. But kulacara is not culture–I know that much. Our dharmashastras are important–verry important, but Lord of Vaikunta takes incarnation to teach us dharma through his example. We must prioritize his upadesa. Stories show this in action to illustrate to proud people of all varnas suffering from ajnaana and ahamkaara, leading to sin.

    God is above Brahmins–we must always remember this and be accountable to Him–not our egos which cause us to ill-treat both high and low born. Pride is bad–verry, very bad. Do not forget this. It is God who is the controller. If we succeed, it is through Him and Him alone. Every period has its kurukshetra. So don’t just talk or thoughtlessly do karma. You must use brains, how can we win great victory for dharma not just engage in petty vaadana. Responses to outsiders have to be fruitful.

    Culture is not kulacara, culture is samskruthi. And there was no telangana desa–debate over. Now go to sleep or go do something productive.

    • vyas says:

      //But kulacara is not culture–I know that much//

      That’s your own view.

      //God is above Brahmins–we must always remember this and be accountable to//

      God is not just above Brahmins. He is above everything.

      //Culture is not kulacara, culture is samskruthi//

      That’s your perception. Can’t help.

  51. vyas says:

    //He is even attacking elders now and using profanity after they told him to stop.//

    I don’t even know who Surya is, so I can’t judge if he/she is elder or younger. Moreover internet is a place where lot of false identities are projected so it’s impossible to judge anyone. Secondly I don’t judge anyone by age. I respect everyone irrespective of age. People like nyaya are unworthy of deserving any respect of any kind.

    //If I am irritating, Vyas is profane. He must be having an aneurysm…//

    Where did your respect go now? Why are you reluctant to accept elder’s comments? Who is a broken record man. I’ve proved several times that you are indeed a broken record.

    //Multiple people have confirmed that kulachar is not samskriti, yet still the broken record plays!//

    Culture is indeed kalachaara depending on how you view it. Culture should define you and your parampara. That’s exactly what kalachaar does. Every jaathi had it’s own kalachaar which defined them. Sanskriti is a much broader term. People like you are completely ignoring Jaathi from the equation which will never help you understand our society. Our society was indeed divided by Varna/Jaathi. Even people outside the varna had jaathis. It’s the most important construct and cannot be disputed. Go and read our other articles for more information about this. Again don’t quote Rajiv for defending. Use your own god given intellect.

    //Who was scolded for using profanity–therein shows who the loser is//

    Who started all this and who is having a childish attitude?

    I repeat again. Nyaya has still not answered my question on showing evidence of language as culture in our scriptures. Me making a mistake in Mahabharatha does not invalidate my knowledge about it nor does it mean that paagals like nyaya have a high knowledge of it. It’s irrelevant who wins or loses. The debate continues until we reach consensus.

    • nyaya says:

      “God is not just above Brahmins. He is above everything.”

      And yet you say Mahabharata and Ramayana where God took incarnation to show us dharma is “least important in our culture”. Hahaha–pure ignorance.

      “Culture is indeed kalachaara depending on how you view it. ”

      I don’t need to quote malhotra. Commenters here themselves have confirmed samskriti is culture. At least I have quoted malhotra–you quote nothing. Only your own opinion–and you don’t even know mahabharata.

      “People like you are completely ignoring Jaathi from the equation which will never help you understand our society. ”

      Outright lie. I have said repeatedly jati/varna dharma also important. But you have tunnel vision and think of only that. When you don’t even know mahabharata properly, when you even lie about it’s importance to our culture, when you have yourself admitted to not knowing much about AP/Telangana, who are you to talk? Go educate yourself first and use some intellect, if not yours, somebody else’s, don’t just talk for its own sake.

      “Me making a mistake in Mahabharatha does not invalidate my knowledge about it ”

      It does, you’re done. You lost. Be a man and accept it, stop whining like a school girl.

      ” repeat again. Nyaya has still not answered my question on showing evidence of language as culture in our scriptures.”

      Repeat again, it is you who failed to answer my questions about :

      1. how orders are to be given on battlefield without national language
      2. how to deal with caste politics played by MIM/Congress when they tell dalits they will be kings if they convert.

      But I know vyas doesn’t have capability or courage to answer.

  52. senthil says:

    in the last two days, the debate has gone out of control.. with your permission, i will edit the comments to delete personal attack (while retaining key points)..

    i request you all to halt this debate for few days, to bring down the tempers..

    @nyaya,
    In a zeal to defeat us all, you are presenting points and concluding you had won and we had been defeated.. that’s not a right way in a debate.. For eg, i provided you references in mahabharatha about kalinga dhesam, and you suddenly writing a comment that i have been dis-proved and hence lost.. i am still searching your comments where you disproved me..

    • nyaya says:

      As for permission to edit out comments, I disagree and don’t give. Censorship skews debate and prevents truth from coming out, even when it’s unintentional. You have allowed free debate so far, Senthil. Why change now? Maybe ask commenters to follow certain standards (i.e. no profanity, no personal attacks, admit when disproven, etc).

      Despite provocation from Vyas, I have not and will not use profanity. But you must criticize him for this. Others have also complained.

      Out of respect for your request, Senthil, I will tone down my comments, I have already done this. But when people have given you proof (not just me, but also zed, vyasa2, lakshman) you have to accept and change your mind or admit your solution doesn’t apply. This is the root of the problem, you guys are too stubborn and opinionated–even when mistake is clear to everyone.

      Also, I am not sure what is wrong with the site, but it doesn’t allow my links through. You may have to change settings on your admin panel.

      • nyaya says:

        Readers are welcome to take a look at my very first comments. I have pointed to them below already. Point for point I have given basis for united Andhra. Point isn’t to make everyone accept my position (congress will do telangana anyways), but to show there is no historical/pauranic basis for it. In fact, solutions have to take current circumstances into account. I don’t believe blogger & friends here are doing that..

        When detailed proof by many other people has been given, Senthil has to absorb (that is why I have had to go to length of asserting victory–neither senthil nor vyas have been following rules of debate, as they have avoided questions, talked around questions, and used delaying tactics so they don’t have to admit mistake (not “misquotation” there is difference). What’s more, vyas’ use of certain language (non-vedic to say the least), and his general approach has been very uncouth to and evasive with not just me but to others–this is apparent on the Subramanian Swamy post with Kumar and other commenters on the last page.

        Ultimately my point is this: debate and article writing are not a pass time–done for their own sake (learning is best done by self-study and logical reflection). Debate must be done with an aim in mind (i.e. help people, help nation, determine correct course of act, etc). But if neither senthil nor vyas accept overwhelming fact as in the case of Telangana (confirmed by 3 separate commenters)–the right thing to do is to admit or accept they don’t have full story. Your jati-desam theory in fact doesn’t depend on Telangana. There are of course still other desams-only in Andhra’s case, it is a standalone desam.

        If people want to avoid olympics, they have to cease gaali talk and discuss in good faith and speak respectuflly. They can’t make up untruths (i.e. “he thinks malhotra last word on dharma”–show where I said this) and not call everybody else’s opinion “nonsense”, “rubbish”, “stupid” etc, especially when they themselves don’t have understanding. Others have complained of this too. Irrespective, previous exchange has run its course and is now over. What matters now is whether senthil himself, rather than others, will respond to the points I listed last week. I will infrequently check to see if he will.

  53. nyaya says:

    @Senthil, you did not provide real references. Your wikipedia map is not traditional proof as you said for Telangana. Vyasa 2 has corrected you on this and showed how even your alleged Mahabharata source said talavahana–telangana was only speculation.. You also have to face the facts. You were disproven by many people.

    You were also corrected about Kalinga not being uttarandhra. This is flat wrong. Your own map shows how far north Kalinga was–OrissaAlso, hyderabad state (aka telangana) called it Nizam (state) Andhra Mahasabha not Telangana or Telugu Mahasabha. Thus there was never any Telangana desam. It is only Nizam who was scared of “Andhra” term because he worried about all telugu speakers uniting. You have been disproved on this by zed, vyas 2, lakshman, and me. It is only you who are holding out.

    Also, you haven’t even criticized vyas for his profanity. How can a blog moderator not recognize this.

    Your system has not been letting my links through.

  54. Suryaprakash says:

    As for pride—pride is the root of the destruction. You can quote all the Tamizh you want I dont care that alone is not argument. And Tamizh is not Sanskrit, which is the devabhasha and the language of our Vedas and shashtras. Our dharmic teachings are clear—pride is the destruction. Mada is Arishadvarga. Pride is the enabler of Paap. Pride is what causes the delusion that man is separate from God.  Pride is what causes man to think he is the Doer and have pride of the doing. Why do we say Aham Brahmasmi

    And there is only one True Sanatana Dharma, but it prescribes the  different duties to the different classes. Dharmasutras explain kula dharma, but even that has variations from yuga to yuga. Hence there is yuga dharma and Sanatana dharma. Morality, justice, worship and the charity are the core principles of Sanatana Dharma, and following the varnashrama dharma and kulacara help us live in harmony with Sanatana Dharma, the one Dharma. 

    If you are truly Brahmin, I have real doubts, go do prayascitta for your endless lies and sins and the profanity. And wash your mouth, incorrigible and impudent boy!!

     

    Senthil, why is your blog full of stubborn people? It is because you yourself have been stubborn only. Do your jaati dharma correctly yes it is true. But remember, all in this age are considered sudras only in character according to Vishnu purana because birth is by chance in Kali age not guna. So stop thinking you are all something great. You are a mere manava all of you are.

    Even Mahanirvana Tantra (from Kaula doctrine given by Lord Shiva) writes following about Kali Age in first chapter:

    //Vipras will live like the Shudras, and whilst neglecting their own Sandhya will yet officiate at the sacrifices of the low. They will be greedy, given over to wicked and sinful acts, liars, insolent, ignorant, deceitful, mere hangers-on of others, the sellers of their daughters, degraded, averse to all tapas and vrata. They will be heretics, impostors, and think themselves wise. They will be without faith or devotion, and will do japa and puja with no other end than to dupe the people. // 

    I used to like Senthil’s original take on our issues—different from westernized writers like Malhotra and Subramanian Swamy and even had refreshing article on loss of jaati. But it seems you are only calling traditional/vedic what is your opinion and never accepting the error. This is not the way to the truth—you think yourself too wise.

  55. senthil says:

    @nyaya,

    I think i already responded to these, by quoting the geographical location of talavahanas, which matches the present telengana region.. also the map shown here is NOT accurate.. uttara andhra is part of kalinga is proved just by the social composition of that area.. if you have time, please try to get details about that..

    any way, i will first clear off all personal attacks in the comments section, before we could continue further.. i request everyone NOT to take our debates to personal attack..

    i am clearing all such comments including this comment..

    • nyaya says:

      See, again senthil you have specifically ignored my points. I already told you that your talavahana-telangana theory was impugned by your own source which said it was “speculating” this. So you’ve been disproven by vyasa 2 on twitter..

      Also you agree you own map is inaccurate because of kalinga, but then say telangi “desam” in same map is accurate–based on what? You don’t know the details. I do.

      You also ignored my point again about how telugu assoc in hyderabad state called “nizam andhra mahasabha” not “telangana mahasabha”. This specifically disproves you and you’re running away from the point again so you can pretend you know what you’re talking about.

      I think rather than suggesting others look at the details, it’s time you do it yourself and do real research before giving thoughtless solutions to problems out of your depth.

    • nyaya says:

      See, readers can see for themselves here that talavahana-telangana is purely speculative as reference itself says clearly: https://twitter.com/Vyasa2/status/394895877682110464/photo/1

      There is no historical basis for telangana.

  56. nyaya says:

    Looks like Senthil has decided on pure turuska tactics rather than “pure vedic” which is why he failed to answer my questions above despite his recent comments elsewhere. Doing half answer or non-answer of question without conceding is not the correct way to debate, and will deem him as forfeiting.

    I will take this as evidence that he has no counterarguments but is too prideful to ever admit mistake or lack of knowledge despite both being obvious. That is not the way to solve India’s problems. If anything, it is only replicating the taliban’s tactics of alleged “strict interpretation” without properly understanding the purpose of the texts or history.

    As such, it’s clear Senthil can’t contest that even so-called telangana people in hyderabad called their organization nizam ANDHRA mahasabha. This is proof that senthil is wrong and telangana has no historical pauranic basis–it is stealth mini-pakistan in the making. He also failed to tackle the point about how hyderabadi owaisis are pretending to be against telangana while actually supporting it and urdu as first language of Telangana.See here:

    http://www.deccanchronicle.com/131107/news-politics/article/post-split-mim-wants-urdu

    • vyas says:

      //This is proof that senthil is wrong and telangana has no historical pauranic basis–it is stealth mini-pakistan in the making//

      It’s funny that you people are talking as if Telangana is being made into a different country. Islamic political forces will always try to find out new ways to carve themselves out irrespective of the bifurcation. Their whole problem is that they always bring religious identity into the equation. It is this move that we need to attack. That’s their whole agenda not just in Andhra but everywhere where they are substantial in number. The voice from Owaisi provided in your link clearly shows that they are frightened. The bifurcation will weaken them which is why they are getting ready to show their power in the newly formed state. Stopping urduization is not going to help resolve this problem. For eg. in TamilNadu the missionaries have started christianizing Tamil language itself. It will not take longer to follow the same approach with Telugu too in Andhra. The ultimate thing that needs to be done is to attack the muslims/christians at their very roots which is their religion. Religion/Language can never be anyone’s identity may it be the Hindus or Muslims/Christians. Only Jaathi/Kulam can be our true identity which comes by birth. But we have almost destroyed that and trying to assume these useless religious/linguistic identities which is the root cause of all problems.

      • nyaya says:

        This is a rehash of all your old disproven points. Urduization is the stepping stone islamization. This has been repeated ad nauseam. The culture point has already been addressed about their being multiple identities–jaati is only one–not the only one.

        I will address the main point about owaisis being “scared”. On the contrary, they have been pushing for this for a long time. A split in telugus increases their power. Now they are completely marginalized in United Andhra–they know this which is why younger owaisi barked like a dog. It is also why they are pushing for Rayala-Telangana, which incorporates 2 Rayalaseema districts that had no connection to telangana beyond one time nizam rule. In short, unity preserves integrity. It is why british divided and ruled successfully–you lot are arguing against obvious history.

        • vyas says:

          //This is a rehash of all your old disproven points. Urduization is the stepping stone islamization. This has been repeated ad nauseam. The culture point has already been addressed about their being multiple identities–jaati is only one–not the only one.//

          There is no question of disproving anything here. You or me are not going to achieve anything by disproving each other. The question I keep asking people like you is, will stopping urduization alone resolve this issue? In my opinion, it will not. Islamization and Christianization needs to be attacked at the root level and not at the linguistic level. Even if you are successful in stopping urduization, they might resort to arabicization. The problem is not with the language. It’s with the religion itself. The problem with muslims and christians of this country (for that matter any country) is that they wrongly associate their identity with their religion. Until the advent of Christianity identity was never associated with religion anywhere in the world. People lived in groups/clans/jaathi across the world and each followed their own parampaya practices. A child born in this clan/jaathi was identified with the same until it’s death. You cannot change your identity whatsoever. It was only with the advent of Abrahamic religions that this took a different course. Beliefs became an integral part of their doctrine and you must believe in it to be a part of it. In contrast if you take the case of our mathams, it was out and out an ideological based entity and not based on beliefs. There was ample space for tharkka and no one was forced to believe anything. The sad part of the story is that the Europeans when they first came here, interpreted our mathams as religions and this is being instilled into our minds until this very moment. To sum it up, all we need to do to get a permanent solution to this islamization/christianization problem is attack the very identity of them. This may result in destruction of Hindu identity too, but I welcome that. I very well understand that this is not such an easy job since it needs a phenomenal change in the political and social front. I don’t have any issues as long as the Hindu identity remains just as a geographical identity, but it has crossed it’s limits and is currently being projected as a religious identity. This is pretty dangerous for the entire Bharathiya society.

          Unlike our intellectuals are propagating, pluralism in Hinduism does not end up just with worship but each one is an entire way of life. By bringing them all under the Hindu umbrella we’ll end up with having just a bunch of gods in contrast with just one god in Abrahamism. Beyond that there will be no significance. This is where the significance of Jaathi takes a lead role. Only if you analyze jaathi you’ll come to know how to connect the dots. That’s the key to all questions about our civilization.

          • nyaya says:

            “There is no question of disproving anything here. You or me are not going to achieve anything by disproving each other. ”

            I trust you can read. The time for debate between you and me was last week. Instead of reading and responding to my detailed answers on urdu, you used profanity instead–which senthil curiously did not condemn.

            ” they might resort to arabicization. ”
            Already are in kerala. You need to read my comments instead of responding to imaginary ones. Each tactic has to be countered–that is the point.

            “Until the advent of Christianity identity was never associated with religion anywhere in the world.”

            Ignorant statement–judaism was there first Jews view themselves as distinct nation/culture based on language (hebrew) and religion (judaism). You and senthil take jati and ignorantly apply our system to everyone else.

            “This may result in destruction of Hindu identity too, but I welcome that.”
            Proving my point about how obscurantists are willing to destroy their own people and religion to perpetuate their perversion of dharma to suit their political ambitions…

            This discussion has moved on to senthil’s new telangana post. Nevertheless, my debate is with him, not you, since you had neither read my prior points properly nor responded to them without periodic profanity. You just repeat the same rehash about urdu not being religion without understanding obvious fact that urdu itself leads to islamization. Not living in the cities, senthil cannot understand this. This is the problem with rural types.

            This post is now obsolete and this debate now over. It is not good etiquette to continue commenting here when there is new post on same topic.

    • senthil says:

      @nyaya,

      You have dragged too many points here, and i am writing a separate article to respond to you.. pls wait for one or two days..

      • nyaya says:

        I haven’t dragged anything–it is you who did not debate properly and partially addressed some points while ignoring others–most notably telangana’s nizam andhra mahasabha.

        Since you have new post, I will shift debate to there.

  57. Pingback: Telengana – the continuing debate | Senthilraja's blog

  58. vyas says:

    //Already are in kerala. You need to read my comments instead of responding to imaginary ones. Each tactic has to be countered–that is the point.//

    So you’ll keep countering them, until when? Until all of us are converted? You have to attack them at the roots not at the leaves. For that you need to throw off the bullshit called religion from the equation. You having miserably failed to counter conversion in united AP have no authority to talk about it. The irony is that despite all this the AP people are still voting like a storm for Jagan. Amazing!!!

    //Ignorant statement–judaism was there first Jews view themselves as distinct nation/culture based on language (hebrew) and religion (judaism)//

    They associated it as such. It was not the case actually. The whole of Europe was once upon a time following a similar pluralist culture like us. Abrahamism has killed it. Even europeans had Jaathi like social structure which was all later destroyed. The entire Oracle class was branded as witches and killed. We never did so. I can still point out some Oracles in my own village.

    //Proving my point about how obscurantists are willing to destroy their own people and religion to perpetuate their perversion of dharma to suit their political ambitions…//

    Ha Ha Ha….Funny. Who said so? It is branding Hinduism as a religion that has destroyed our harmony. As I’ve mentioned before, dharma without aashrama is pretty much useless. Today’s modern Hindu gurus (including intellects like Rajiv) are preaching just that. Preaching/teaching everything to everybody will lead only to chaos. This approach may probably help you in successfully surviving in a world dominated by Abrahamic religions, but it will never be dharmic. You’ll only end up projecting ideologies but not aachaaras. In that respect, the muslims are far better than us, because they not only project their ideology but prescribe aachaaraas underneath that as well. I have no qualms with muslims/christians following their practices as long as they don’t resort to conversion activities. Let them be minorities forever in this country and live happily. The whole problem starts only when they start disturbing the harmony.

    • nyaya says:

      Haha, poor vyas is losing his mind. He’s getting clobbered on the other thread so he’s trying to come back here on an obsolete thread in a vain attempt to salvage his dignity.

      There you go again, using profanity “bullsh*t”–what happened lose your cool again? hahaha

      “You having miserably failed to counter conversion in united AP have no authority to talk about it. The irony is that despite all this the AP people are still voting like a storm for Jagan. Amazing!!!”

      Again, you seem to be having trouble with basic logic. Congress/YSR wielded power and did maximum conversions. Jagan will do the same thing. Where did I say I supported jagan–he’s a criminal like his father and a missionary? People know it’s congress fixed game: jagan will collect united andhra votes and sonia telangana votes.

      Besides, everyone knows conversion was the worst in TN despite jati consciousness. So who are you to lecture? Clean up your house first before you put your nose in mine.

      “They associated it as such. ”

      You were disproven about christianity being the first to combine identity with religion–judaism prceded it. Have some shame and keep some dignity in defeat at least.

      “it is branding Hinduism as a religion that has destroyed our harmony. ”

      AHAHAHA, look at the comments your received on the jati page. People know you obscurantists are dividing hindus with your hare-brained fact free navel gazing.

      “As I’ve mentioned before, dharma without aashrama is pretty much useless.”

      You don’t even know mahabharata, so your lectures on dharma carry no weight.

      Ohhhhhhhhhh, vyas, you truly are the comment clown. Keep your silly comments coming, it will only show how desperate senthil is to distract from his Draksharamam self-goal.

      • vyas says:

        //There you go again, using profanity “bullsh*t”–what happened lose your cool again? hahaha//

        Wow!!! Bullshit is profanity is it? Then almost everyone in this forum should be condemned for using it. Also did i ever use it against you? Do you even have a sense to understand my statement? I used it against religion. Moreover bullshit is used as a placeholder for anything that’s junk or scrap. For a person who doesn’t know even this shouldn’t even be using the internet. I can only pity you my friend. It’s just not enough to have your oxford dictionary along with you when you type your comments. Every now and then keep verifying that you have your senses working too.

        //Besides, everyone knows conversion was the worst in TN despite jati consciousness. So who are you to lecture? Clean up your house first before you put your nose in mine.//

        We are far better my friend. We never allowed our state’s Christian population to grow to such a whopping number in such a short period. United Andhra is a failed state with respect to conversion. One more term for Jagan and you are finished. You have absolutely no voice to talk about conversion. YOU are a FAILED state. Period. Go and strengthen your jaathis. They’ll take care of conversion issues for you. By the way first go and beg your people not to vote for congress/jagan again. That’s the one you need to do first than talking junk here.

        //AHAHAHA, look at the comments your received on the jati page. People know you obscurantists are dividing hindus with your hare-brained fact free navel gazing.//

        We are far better. In the name of uniting people with Hinduism you are simply destroying it. All you are doing is trying to bring uniformity within Hinduism by destroying all Jaathi/Kulam/Varna systems. By doing so you’ll just be left with another version of an Abrahamic religion.

        //You don’t even know mahabharata, so your lectures on dharma carry no weight.//

        You are doing an andhar balti again. In your previous comment you accepted that Mahabharatha is not mandatory for all class of people, but now you are again talking as if it’s THE text for dharma. You are one sick example of a non-converted Christian. It is people like you who are the real enemies of Sanathana dharma. Even the Abrahamic enemies can be easily tackled and contained but you people are inside threats which are far more poisonous for our society. Senthil always used to tell that the decline of our dharma is happening from inside. I didn’t believe it at first but now I’ve started to recognize the same.

        //No, I’m not, you’re just cognitively deficient to not see the cultural effect of language, which is why you ran away from the untranslatables point I made.//

        Funny. First you said language is culture and now you are saying culture affects language. What next?? Language and culture affecting dharma? Looks like you’ve completely lost your mind on this. You just don’t know what to answer and keep giving some useless comments. It clearly shows your inability. I’m amazed to see how a person who is so illiterate can pretend as if he is the most intelligent man on the planet and keep abusing others in the forum. Such third rated debating methods are a skill indeed. If you are working for a corporate company, show such skills there, atleast you’ll have bright chances to grow over there, but not here.

        //Ohhhh, but it’s ok if you put words in my mouth and say I meant Mahabharata and Ramayana are the only texts–hypocrisy, much???//

        Yes, you are saying that consistently but denying it every time. You are a true example of a pope disguised as a sadhu.

        • nyaya says:

          “Wow!!! Bullshit is profanity is it?”

          AHAHAHA, omg, you really have lost your mind. “sh*t” is a four letter word, Wordsworth…(a simple google search can show this). My god, you truly are cognitively deficient. “Pure vedic” indeed!

          “We are far better my friend.YOU are a FAILED state.”

          We had an open evangelist claim the CM chair and use CM powers–what’s your excuse? That’s why tamil brahmins were getting kicked out and why jehadis and missionaries have been carving out enclaves in TN. It’s why an entire terrorist movement hijacked your people. Yes, we know who is the failed state and people…

          ” In the name of uniting people with Hinduism you are simply destroying it. ”

          NO, you’re absolutely right! Far better to close one’s eyes and squeal “jati will save us, jati will save us” all while entire jatis are converting to abrahamic religions. Wah, what logic!

          “. Senthil always used to tell that the decline of our dharma is happening from inside”

          Yes, and it’s caused by people like you and him who don’t even have a basic understanding of dharma–who think mahabharata is not important (you don’t even know it!).

          As zed wrote, it is termites like you lot who give blatantly false definitions of culture as a salve for your injured fantasies of being a “dominant jati”. People like you who crave power over dharma are the reason for it’s miserable state–and you use caste to advance your agenda. That’s why you lie, cheat, steal, and swear (profusely) to get your way. The nizam of hyderabad used to prop up obscurantists just like you two tools. Looks like the monkey wrench has come out of the box again…

          “Im amazed to see how a person who is so illiterate can pretend as if he is the most intelligent man on the planet and keep abusing others in the forum.”

          You’re the ‘”genius” who thinks battlefield orders could have been issued in 3000 dialects since 1947! Great job einstein!!!

          ” You are a true example of a pope disguised as a sadhu.”

          And you are a ravana caught up in hubris but utterly lacking in wisdom. Don’t worry though, naraka is patiently waiting for your arrival–only rather than you’re co-passenger as you stated above–I’ll be your conductor. Happy travels!

          Seriously, though the deranged, unintelligible and frothing rants aside, keep the antics going, this is the best clown show ever! You’re a court jester–and you don’t even know it!!! LOL!!

          • vyas says:

            //We had an open evangelist claim the CM chair and use CM powers–what’s your excuse?//

            Oh!!! so that’s why people are flocking to vote for his son too to complete the unfinished chapter is it? How funny.

            //That’s why tamil brahmins were getting kicked out and why jehadis and missionaries have been carving out enclaves in TN. It’s why an entire terrorist movement hijacked your people//

            Yes, I’m equally condemning the DK anti-nationals too. At the same time, the state (TN) which talked the most about jaathi destruction for a whole century is still going strong with jaathis. In fact with the PMK in picture Jaathi is acquiring more strength here. Despite DK being pro christian, their conversion tactics could not work out here. The conversion rate is very low in TN compared to other states. AP is the worst of all right now with respect to conversion. If it goes this way it will soon become another mizoram in just a few decades from now. This is why I ask you to strengthen your jaathis and they’ll take care of everything for you.

            //who think mahabharata is not important (you don’t even know it!).//

            I only said that Mahabharatha alone is not important but every other text is important too. Don’t twist my arguments. Also I don’t have to know Mahabharatha for being dharmic. Every statement of yours keeps portraying Mahabharatha as Bible though you blushingly keep denying it. This is a pure Hindutva attitude. Shame on you.

          • nyaya says:

            “//We had an open evangelist claim the CM chair and use CM powers–what’s your excuse?//

            Oh!!! so that’s why people are flocking to vote for his son too to complete the unfinished chapter is it?”

            Uh, are you dense? How does jagan contradict the fact that his evangelist father used his CM powers to convert people. Aren’t converted people going to support the evangelical jagan?

            Think, man, think. I mean, I know you don’t even know what profanity is anymore, but at least try to use logic–seriously, you’re just embarrassing yourself–in a very public fashion.

            “The conversion rate is very low in TN compared to other states.”

            Your state is ground zero for conversions (kanyakumari is openly referred to as kanyamaryam now)—huge “soul harvest” in the aftermath of tsunami. It is your state that was pushing to demolish Ram Setu. It was your state that shamelessly sent Shankaracharya of Kanchi to jail. It is your state where jehadis are hunting tamil Brahmins for sport. This should boil the blood of every hindu (brahmin or not), but you silly people are still obsessing about how jathi should be the focus rather than tamil hindus of whatever caste becoming prey for outsiders. So don’t lecture us on Andhra or Telangana.

            You let outsiders like caldwell come in and define tamil culture for you–and masses fell for it because tamil brahmins were sleeping on the job. We won’t make the same mistake in Andhra–it’s why Telugu brahmins never had to suffer same indignity. Telangana is a setback, but it is one that will awaken people to how history and language are twisted to invent divisions and desams where none previously existed.

            “I only said that Mahabharatha alone is not important but every other text is important too. Don’t twist my arguments. ”

            You said it was “least important to our culture”–that itself is a joke worthy of a thousand laughs. Varnadharma is important, Dharmashastras are important, but it is Mahabharata and Ramayana that allow all varnas to do their respective duties while understanding what makes us tick as a society.

            The fact that you think internet hindus are the problem only shows how myopic and self-obsessed you and senthil are. It is they who have been protecting the religion from slander like the type caldwell did on tamil brahmins.

            As usual, provincial rustics are sleeping on the job dreaming delusions of grandeur. I’d say shame on you, but we both know you have none…

  59. vyas says:

    //Uh, are you dense? How does jagan contradict the fact that his evangelist father used his CM powers to convert people. Aren’t converted people going to support the evangelical jagan?//

    Okay so you yourself have accepted that Jagan is going to get more votes in the upcoming elections. By the way It’s not just the converts my dear, it’s the Hindus too who are voting for him and voted for his father too. In any case they have established a majority already and going to use the same to evangelize more. Telangana is a bang on their head. It will split the votes, weaken them and curb conversion to a larger extent. It’s strange that you are opposing it.

    //Your state is ground zero for conversions (kanyakumari is openly referred to as kanyamaryam now)—huge “soul harvest” in the aftermath of tsunami. It is your state that was pushing to demolish Ram Setu. It was your state that shamelessly sent Shankaracharya of Kanchi to jail. It is your state where jehadis are hunting tamil Brahmins for sport.//

    All fine but what’s the net result? The percentage of Christians and Muslims are very minimal in TN despite humongous efforts of conversion. Without many of the aforementioned issues, conversion happened silently to a whopping number that too within a span of just a decade or two in AP. Time and again it has been proven by people themselves that Jaathi is more emotionally attached to them than language. Your stupid linguistic tactics didn’t work. First learn to accept that. You are getting big blows from muslims and Christians from both the sides. Your linguistic identity has simply failed the state. Had AP focused on strengthening their jaathis instead of language, even a hundred YSRs could not have been successful in converting them. Even in TN the political parties have started to recognize that linguistic identities will no longer work. They were never able to unite people with it. They were able to unite people only using Jaathis. This is why more Jaathi parties are gaining power in TN lately. In fact we weren’t converted by a large scale only due to the strength of the individual jaathis. Jaathi has the power to hold people tight. Your stupid Hindu identity may probably fetch you a few extra votes, but will never be successful in bringing unity among people.

    //You let outsiders like caldwell come in and define tamil culture for you–and masses fell for it because tamil brahmins were sleeping on the job//

    It just didn’t happen in TN alone. It happened throughout the country at that time. Again despite all such incidents jaathi is still going strong and a significant majority are still not converted.

    //Telangana is a setback, but it is one that will awaken people to how history and language are twisted to invent divisions and desams where none previously existed.//

    Telangana is not a setback. It’s a victory. You’ll come to know why in the years to come. I’m eagerly waiting for such a thing to happen to TN as well. The Kongu Vellalars in coimbatore and some groups in Madurai are already protesting for separate states. I only wish that succeeds.

    //It is they who have been protecting the religion from slander like the type caldwell did on tamil brahmins. //

    Which religion? There was no religion in India until the Europeans came. We only had mathams. Yes, caldwell did demean the Brahmins and it has been condemned several times. But the Brahmins were culprits too. They took up govt jobs which they were not supposed to according to their varna dharma.

    It’s high time you need to start accepting the failure of linguistic AP. The Muslims and Christians have been ruling the roost in AP for the past few decades and have literally ruined it. The so called Telugus did nothing but kept watching the decay and conveniently put all the blame on politicians. Telangana will change that course. Linguistic identity based states are always susceptible to large scale conversions. Such a division has failed the whole nation. It has undermined the jaathis, destroyed the culture and completely ruined the nation.

    • nyaya says:

      “Okay so you yourself have accepted that Jagan is going to get more votes in the upcoming elections. ”

      I haven’t accepted anything, so don’t put words in my mouth like you are wont to do. We’ll see what the election has in store. There are more than just two players in seemandhra/telangana.

      “it’s the Hindus too who are voting for him and voted for his father too. ”

      Yes, because reddy obsession with jathi caused hindus to vote for ysr because he was reddy. That is why jati obsession is double edged sword. Jati has to be balanced with dharma–which you and senthil foolishly ignore.

      ” It will split the votes, weaken them and curb conversion to a larger extent. It’s strange that you are opposing it.”

      Because it won’t, as I’ve repeated to you–learn to read. It’s not a bang on their head, but a slicing of the pie. Urduized telangana emphasizing muslim culture is gift to owaisis. Coastal andhra has higher concentration of converts, so ratio increases, as does power. It’s basic maths…It’s strange that you can’t do calculations…

      “All fine but what’s the net result? The percentage of Christians and Muslims are very minimal in TN despite humongous efforts of conversion.”

      Haha, big joke, there. Christian population was 6% in 2001 already in TN–it only went up after tsunami–easily over 10%, plus it’s now concentrated in south TN. You still don’t understand population cleavages.

      Jehadis have been on rampage in TN attacking hindus. So don’t pretend like your jathi obsession has saved you–it has turned TN into a basket case of assorted dmk parties.

      “Had AP focused on strengthening their jaathis ”

      Again, same foolishness. It is obsession with jathi that caused congress to become reddy monopoly and tdp to become kamma monopoly. Do some research before you ridiculously pretend to be expert.

      “Your stupid Hindu identity may probably fetch you a few extra votes, but will never be successful in bringing unity among people.”

      Use logic, “genius”…jathi obsession divides people–even child can see this…It is strange that you can’t…

      “It just didn’t happen in TN alone. ”

      And yet it was your people who got thrown out like beggars…

      “Telangana is not a setback. It’s a victory. ”

      Only to someone ignorant on the history of the region and the politics brewing there. Senthil didn’t even know boundaries of Telangana and didn’t realize draksharamam was in coastal andhra, that’s why he’s been so deafeningly silent. Fix your state first before you lecture on ours.

      “Which religion? There was no religion in India until the Europeans came. ”

      Whether you like it or not, all the sampradayas come under Sanatana dharma. Because you people would rather divide than unify–you were easy target for caldwell’s of the worldOnly looks like you people still don’t have brainpower to realize how he did it..

      ” The Muslims and Christians have been ruling the roost in AP for the past few decades and have literally ruined it. ”

      Uh what? TDP was in power until 2004. It was YSR that supported telangana behind the scenes and opened pandora’s box. He then used CM chair to convert. It was language politics that saved Andhra from Congress chamchagiri when NTR came to power. Your state has become a basket case of identity politics because tamil brahmins slept on the jobs and failed to push back against caldwell–now you want to export your mistake to other states.

      You people are living in a dreamworld pretending like orders can be given in 3000 dialects on the battle field and swiss army knives can be used against nuclear weapons. This is why you should go back to your villages and leave policy and statecraft for people who actually understand it.

      • vyas says:

        //I haven’t accepted anything, so don’t put words in my mouth like you are wont to do//

        You’ve very much accepted it. Don’t try to hide it. The only problem is that you are conveniently putting the blame on the politicians and not analyzing the root cause. Linguistic AP has simply FAILED FAILED FAILED!!!

        //Yes, because reddy obsession with jathi caused hindus to vote for ysr because he was reddy. That is why jati obsession is double edged sword//

        Why was YSR not able to convert his own reddy community in a large scale? Just think. Jaathi crosses religious boundaries. People predominantly don’t give up jaathi identities even after conversion. Some keep it personal and some blatantly say that in the open like the Christian Nadars and Christian Reddys. Jaathi is highly anti Christian and anti Islam. This is why the popes and mullas are very particular in destroying jaathi identity of a converted person. But converted people are exhibiting the opposite. They are not willing to give up their cultural jaathi identity. They may even take brides across religion but never across their jaathi. Before abusing jaathis blindly first try to learn some facts about it.

        //Jati has to be balanced with dharma–which you and senthil foolishly ignore.//

        Jaathi is already in line with dharma. It is pseudo Hindus like you who are diverting it from it’s tracks.

        //Urduized telangana emphasizing muslim culture is gift to owaisis//

        That’s just a height of your own imagination. There is no guarantee for this to happen. The muslims are going to be weakened for sure in Telangana.

        //Christian population was 6% in 2001 already in TN–it only went up after tsunami–easily over 10%, plus it’s now concentrated in south TN//

        Again don’t jump to conclusions yet. The latest data is not out yet. Despite this it still won’t be anywhere even close to that of AP. YSR must be awarded a Guiness record for achieving such a high number within such a short span of time.

        //Jehadis have been on rampage in TN attacking hindus. So don’t pretend like your jathi obsession has saved you–it has turned TN into a basket case of assorted dmk parties.//

        So what? We are still majorly unconverted.

        //Use logic, “genius”…jathi obsession divides people–even child can see this…It is strange that you can’t…//

        Jaathi identity strengthens people my dear friend. It is you internet Hindus who are seeing it as divisive.

        //And yet it was your people who got thrown out like beggars…//

        Thrown out from where? We’re still here. Going doubly strong, despite all efforts to dismantle us.

        //Because you people would rather divide than unify–you were easy target for caldwell’s of the worldOnly looks like you people still don’t have brainpower to realize how he did it..//

        Jaathis never depart from their dharma. They always acknowledge themselves as sons of this soil. It is you pseudo Hindus who in the name of modernity are completely destroying all native Sampradhayas and striving to create a unified Abrahamic religion named Hinduism. First try to acknowledge and encourage cultural pluralism within the so called Hinduism and then we can talk about religious pluralism.

        //It was YSR that supported telangana behind the scenes and opened pandora’s box. He then used CM chair to convert. It was language politics that saved Andhra from Congress chamchagiri when NTR came to power//

        It was your linguistic politics that weakened your Jaathis which resulted in conversion when a vulnerable CM came to power. Even TN had linguistic identity & politics that fetched large number of votes and put the DK into power which too indulged in conversion related activities albeit indirectly, but it never helped weaken jaathis here because linguistic identity was never taken seriously here. The irony is that the DK could not win most of the elections without support from these same Jaathi based parties.

        //Your state has become a basket case of identity politics because tamil brahmins slept on the jobs and failed to push back against caldwell–now you want to export your mistake to other states. //

        I never denied the issues with Caldwell and the Brahmins. I’m only asking you to see what effect it eventually had among the people.

        //You people are living in a dreamworld pretending like orders can be given in 3000 dialects on the battle field and swiss army knives can be used against nuclear weapons//

        It’s clearly visible that you’ve run out of points. Despite me clarifying my points on the above statements you still want to keep mentioning the same. Fine, I have no issues. Go ahead and start your gramophone record. I’ll get myself a piece of cotton for my ears.

        Only strengthening Jaathi’s can save AP from conversion and Jehadi threats. It holds true for other states as well. The politicians will be of no help whatsoever. They’ll continue to play their vote bank politics on us as ever. Neither individuals nor govt can help stop conversion in a democratic country like India. Only Jaathis have the power to do so. Every jaathi has their own kula devatha. They know very well that they’ll not be able to worship it if converted. No jaathi would give up their Kula Devatha at any cost. As Senthil pointed out even converted Jaathi people are silently worshiping their Kula Devathas. It was weakening of the Jaathis that led to conversion in a large scale. No matter how hard you try, you simply cannot convert the Brahmins, Devars, Goundars etc in a large scale. There must be similar powerful jaathis in AP too which can never be converted at a large scale. Jaathi is the key to our victory. The moment we lose it we lose everything. As modern Hindu morons point out, Jaathi is never divisive and it’s the pillar on which Sanathana dharma rests.

        • nyaya says:

          “Linguistic AP has simply FAILED FAILED FAILED!!!”

          Tough talk from the tamil brahmins who were outsmarted by caldwell…

          “You’ve very much accepted it. Don’t try to hide it”

          No I didn’t. Where did I say jagan will get all seemandhra votes. You’ve gone off your rocker. Now you are lying, like you lied about not using profanity. You’re embarrassing yourself. See what happened, when I gave you chance for seriously discussion, you hysterically repeat same statements like a parrot as if that alone is proof.

          “Why was YSR not able to convert his own reddy community in a large scale?”

          My God, you really are cognitively deficient. The point is not whether he converted all of the reddy caste, the point is that he used his reddy caste to vote for him and christian congress en masse. Then he used this power to convert poorer castes (reddy caste is one of the richest). Use your brains, don’t just blab like a buffoon.

          “Before abusing jaathis blindly first try to learn some facts about it.”

          Where have I abused jatis–liar. All I said was that jatis have their place, but right now it’s important to get hindus to vote in bloc to cancel out support for congress.

          “It is pseudo Hindus like you who are diverting it from it’s tracks.”

          What kind of hindu are you–you lie, cheat, steal and use profanity. And you act as a termite just repeating jatis will save us–no explanation.

          False brahmins like you lot are the problem and you will meet the same fate ravana did.

          “There is no guarantee for this to happen. The muslims are going to be weakened for sure in Telangana.”

          You offer no fact and no logic, your argument has no weight.

          “Again don’t jump to conclusions yet. ”

          Speak with facts and stats, then open your trap.

          “So what? We are still majorly unconverted”

          What a joke, open a book then talk. Entire breaking india book is on how you tamilians dropped the ball.

          “Thrown out from where? We’re still here. ”

          Tell that to all the iyers and iyengars who ran away to karnataka and andhra fearing for their lives. These are my family friends–so who are you trying to mislead. I know their story.

          “Jaathis never depart from their dharma.”

          They did when reddy jathi voted YSR and congress–they remembered jathi and forgot dharma–net result was conversions. Think, use your brain.

          “It was your linguistic politics that weakened your Jaathis ”

          I just told you jati feeling in AP is strong–learn to read. Reddy’s vote for Congress, Kammas vote for TDP. Kapus tried with PRP and chiranjeevi and split anti-congress vote, bringing congress back to power. Use logic, don’t just repeat your opinions like a parrot as if that itself explains.

          “I’m only asking you to see what effect it eventually had among the people.’

          Proof is in the pudding, it is your state that turned vehemently anti-brahmin, not AP. It wasn’t language but subversion of reddy caste/congress party that gave cm seat to evangelical ysr. Again, think, don’t be a parrot.

          “It’s clearly visible that you’ve run out of points”

          Hahaha, what a joke, you just keep repeating “jathi is the solution” but you ignore how jati obsession allowed ysr to capture reddy vote to convert poor telugus.

          “Only strengthening Jaathi’s can save AP from conversion and Jehadi threats.”

          OH MY GOD–truly, you are the king of clowns. Hahaha, yeah, jati will save you from conversion at swordpoint—joke of the century!

          Your entire jati theory is brainless. Lakshman was right, you are imposing your tamil experience on rest of the country. You two provincial boors keep repeating “jatis will take care of everything” without fact or logic.

          I already told you about jati obsession in AP, hindu reddy’s voted for Christian reddy leading to evangelism in Andhra.

          In UP jats voted for jats, yadavs voted for samajwadi, and dalits voted for BSP—net result was azam khan became home minister and muzzafar riots–no safety for hindu womenfolk.

          That is congress strategy—divide hindu vote on jati lines and unify minority vote blocs. So address this point before you keep prattling on with the same nonsense.

          Whole eelam project was result of caldwell outsmarting tamil Brahmins and slandering them all while caste obsessed country bumpkins pusillanimously prattled on about how “jathis will take care of everything for you”, no explanation, no logic, no practicality—hahaha, what a bunch of fools…and they wonder why they got kicked out of their own state like beggars…

          “No matter how hard you try, you simply cannot convert the Brahmins, Devars, Goundars etc in a large scale”

          It happened at swordpoint–liar. It’s happening right now in pakistan, bangladesh and west bengal eastern borders. Only you provincial rubes keep closing your eyes because of your lust for power. Forget selling dharma, you’d sell your own wives, mothers, and daughters to feed your caste obsession.

          You have no arguments. In desperation you keep repeating yourself like a broken record. You can’t even offer practical solutions on national language–only imaginary 3000 dialects technology for the battlefield. People like you belong only in villages.

          Cowardly people have neither the brains nor strength to fight–they just regurgitate their nonsense illogical opinions and use profanity. It’s clear you obscurantists are on the payroll of outsiders… You are the drohis of dharma.

          I gave you fair chance for discussion and again you fall back on your degenerate ways–blatantly lying and making illogical arguments and accusations. You obviously don’t know how to behave in a cultured fashion–which explains why you couldn’t even understand its definition…

          Worst of all, you’re obviously covering for senthil’s humiliation on draksharamam–hence his deafening silence. Neither of you country fellows understand the geography or history of Andhra.

          Your foolishness on reddy jati block voting for YSR alone proves your intellectual incapacity. Jati block voting brought YSR to power. GOOD JOB!!! Way to embarrass yourself…again!

          • vyas says:

            //Tough talk from the tamil brahmins who were outsmarted by caldwell…//

            Poor Nyaya. You neither know the history nor can vouch for the mistakes committed by united AP. You are just hanging around not knowing what to do . I pity your situation. The Brahmins had their fair share of faults for which they suffered. Caldwell’s part was with distorting the history. But again he was highly unsuccessful in converting the Brahmins.

            //you hysterically repeat same statements like a parrot as if that alone is proof.//

            Ha ha ha. Sounds familiar? Go and look into the mirror and you’ll know who did it first :-)

            //The point is not whether he converted all of the reddy caste, the point is that he used his reddy caste to vote for him and christian congress en masse//

            The whole point is why was he not able to convert his own reddy jaathi to Christianity.

            //Then he used this power to convert poorer castes (reddy caste is one of the richest). Use your brains, don’t just blab like a buffoon.//

            There you are. Poor castes. People whose jaathis are economically weakened, lost their lands, homes and completely dismantled. Only they fell prey to conversion. All other wealthy jaathis could not be touched. This is why I keep saying that jaathi forces need to be strengthened and those people should be allowed to exercise their jaathi rights. Had united AP (applicable to other states as well) focused on this right from the beginning, even a battalion of YSR’s could not have touched them. Rather than doing this, you focused on the useless linguistic unity which the people didn’t care for. The problem with people like you is that you either see the people as a bunch of individuals or identify them as Hindus. Both are useless in my perspective. First understand what our social construct is and then address this issue from that angle.

            // And you act as a termite just repeating jatis will save us–no explanation//

            Looks like you have selective amnesia. Despite giving so many explanations you still repeat your same old comment. Without Jaathis our nation would have become 100% Muslim/Christian in the 800 year Islamic/British rule.

            //You offer no fact and no logic, your argument has no weight.//

            There is no logic for issues like this. A micro minority community like the British ruled us for around 200 years. What logic do you see in this? The same way a marginally high proportion of muslims in Telangana is not going to have any drastic effect. The solution lies with the intellectual policies that you propose and not with the head count.

            //Speak with facts and stats, then open your trap.//

            The fact is that there are only 6% christians as per 2001 sensus. In the next 10 yrs there is no way for it to drastically increase. I can’t speak for your speculations.

            //Entire breaking india book is on how you tamilians dropped the ball.//

            Breaking India is predominantly about how the Tamil identity was hijacked by the local Christians and the DK morons. Our local Tamil authors are already giving a tough fight for them and with Breaking India (thanks to Rajiv and Aravindan) this issue has gained national attention. The fact of the matter is despite 50 years of horrific rule of the DK morons in TN, Christians and Muslims put together hardly 10% of the state’s population which is way too low but within a span of just 10yrs, the YSR govt reached sky high with respect to Christian population alone. If we add the muslim population it will be even higher.

            //Tell that to all the iyers and iyengars who ran away to karnataka and andhra fearing for their lives.//

            Most of them haven’t gone anywhere. They are still here going strong. Only thing is that now that they’ve lost their govt jobs they don’t have control anymore. But that’s okay since Brahmins were not supposed to be like that.

            //They did when reddy jathi voted YSR and congress–they remembered jathi and forgot dharma–net result was conversions//

            Use your brain nyaya. The reddys voted for YSR because he was a reddy. Supporting their jaathi member is indeed their dharma. The jaathis are very clear about what their dharma is. It is pseudo hindus like you who are not clear about what your dharma is.

            //I just told you jati feeling in AP is strong–learn to read. Reddy’s vote for Congress, Kammas vote for TDP. Kapus tried with PRP and chiranjeevi and split anti-congress vote, bringing congress back to power//

            The core problem is your jaathi feeling starts and ends with just voting. There is much more to it than just voting. Did you provide enough rights for jaathis and villages to manage themselves? If you look at religious conversion demographics it has significantly affected only those jaathis which were weak and pushed to poverty.

            //Proof is in the pudding, it is your state that turned vehemently anti-brahmin, not AP//

            Even now my state is highly anti-Brahmin. So what? Talk about the effects my dear not the facts.

            //It wasn’t language but subversion of reddy caste/congress party that gave cm seat to evangelical ysr.//

            It was indeed too much focus on linguistic identity that made you blind to other identities, which eventually caused the aftermath. You used your jaathis merely as vote banks. Your politicians did nothing to embrace them or their culture. You manifested all your efforts in establishing linguistic identity across AP but failed to recognize that people are more attached to their jaathis than their language. As I mentioned before your state was already vulnerable for conversion and YSR just exploited it. If you use common sense you’ll understand that it’s impossible to achieve such high conversion rates in such a short span of time that too in a more matured state like AP. Severe problem was lurking inside even before YSR came in to the picture but you never paid any attention to it and eventually you are paying the price for it right now. Atleast from now onwards sideline your linguistic identities and start focusing on other identities. I’m very hopeful that Telangana/Seemandhara will teach the Christians/Muslims a lesson for their lifetime that united AP didn’t.

            //but you ignore how jati obsession allowed ysr to capture reddy vote to convert poor telugus.//

            YSR is not the culprit my friend. It’s the weakened jaathis that is. As I mentioned before, if the jaathis were strong enough even a 100 YSR’s could not have triumphed with conversion.

            //That is congress strategy—divide hindu vote on jati lines and unify minority vote blocs. So address this point before you keep prattling on with the same nonsense.//

            That’s because your stupid Hindutva forces keep focusing on destroying jaathis in the name of religion. It is they who have turned minorities permanently in favor of congress. As a result congress gains all the negative votes from minorities. The congress is very clever in upholding jaathi sentiments, which is why they still have a substantial vote bank despite lackluster performance in the center. Jaathis care a damn about Hindu or Hindutva. All they care about is their dharma and as long as that’s not disturbed they’re okay.

            //Whole eelam project was result of caldwell outsmarting tamil Brahmins and slandering them all while caste obsessed country bumpkins pusillanimously prattled on about how “jathis will take care of everything for you”, no explanation, no logic, no practicality//

            You are simply unqualified to talk about eelam issue. You junk comments clearly prove that you know nothing about it. Eelam is pure politics. The people of TN have indeed outsmarted the politicians in this issue. Our politicians are trying way too hard to inject linguistic sentiments into people’s mind with eelam related issues but time and again the people have clearly rejected it.

            //and they wonder why they got kicked out of their own state like beggars…//

            True. Only because they were language chauvinists like you. You’ll face the same fate as the Eelam Tamils if you continue to show your linguistic chauvinism.

            //It happened at swordpoint–liar//

            Come on. Use common sense. How many can you convert using sword? Moreover do you think the jaathi men’s hands will be plucking flower when our enemies show their sword?

            //It’s happening right now in pakistan, bangladesh and west bengal eastern borders//

            Those are all areas where jaathi has been completely dismantled. It’s very obvious that they cannot survive once their fundamentals are destroyed.

            //You obviously don’t know how to behave in a cultured fashion–which explains why you couldn’t even understand its definition…//

            Looks like you have run out of intellectual ideas which is why you are bringing in unrelated comments into the discussion.

            //Neither of you country fellows understand the geography or history of Andhra.//

            Funny. A person who knows nothing about his own people is blaming others. What an irony. First know your people and then you can pontificate about history or geography.

            //Jati block voting brought YSR to power. GOOD JOB!!! Way to embarrass yourself…again!//

            I’ve already explained about this in my previous comments. You’re completely lost my dear nyaya. You just don’t have enough eggs in your bags. United AP FAILED and has proven itself to be a vulnerable state and the same has been exploited too by the likes of YSR. Accept your defeat and move on. Take necessary measures to not repeat such mistakes atleast in Seemandhara. Don’t keep vomitting junk in the name of comments.

          • nyaya says:

            Awww, bechara vyas has lost his mind as he can now see he lost all credibility with such ridiculous statements as “jatis will save you from jehadis” and “orders can be given in 3000 dialects on battlefield”. If this is what passes for “pure vedic” intellect south of the penner, no wonder Caldwell outsmarted the tamil Brahmins.

            “Caldwell’s part was with distorting the history. But again he was highly unsuccessful in converting the Brahmins.”

            Vyas is too cognitively defective to see that the point isn’t to convert brahmins with propaganda, it’s to convert lower classes who will then use violence against brahmins–this is what happened to his own community–but vyas is too dense to understand basic logic.

            “Ha ha ha. Sounds familiar? ”

            Vyas is so frustrated he’s not even making sense anymore. I explained my statements and logic. He just repeats “yowar jathis bilk tage care ob eberything” like a parrot. But parrots obviously don’t understand logic.

            “The whole point is why was he not able to convert his own reddy jaathi to Christianity.”

            Even here, he again shows he has not the capacity to understand logic. Reddy community is rich, so YSR focused on poor hindus. He used jathi feeling to get hindus votes but religious feeling to secure christian votes. Then once he had cm chair, he had power to convert. Parrots can’t understand this simple logic.

            “There you are. Poor castes. People whose jaathis are economically weakened”

            Hahahaha, oh my God, he really is a parrot. He doesn’t even have the intellectual equipment to address the logic of the point. Caste feeling gave CM seat to christian reddy. Christian reddy then used cm chair to target “economically weakened” jathis. Even children can understand this.

            “Despite giving so many explanations you still repeat your same old comment. ”

            He gives no explanations on how jati will save at jehadi swordpoint. It is this exact same foolishness that gave opening for caldwell to slander brahmins–AND HE STILL DOESN”T GET IT!!!

            “A micro minority community like the British ruled us for around 200 years. What logic do you see in this? ”

            Parrots can’t even understand basic concepts like divide and rule–and he lectures on history!!! Hahaha, what a joke.

            “I can’t speak for your speculations.”

            He can’t speak cause he has no statistics, while I have provided. Only his worthless, fact free opinion. Like chicken little crying “jathis are falling!”, “jathis are falling”, ahahaha.

            “Breaking India is predominantly about how the Tamil identity was hijacked by the local Christians and the DK morons. ”

            Exactly, because tamil brahmins were sleeping on the job obsessing about jathi instead of educating other varnas on samskruti and dharma. Proper understanding of samskruthi and dharma means caldwell propaganda will be laughed at by even lower classes. But parrots don’t understand this, just repeat “jathi will take care of everything” thinking God will give crackers to parrots for that.

            “the YSR govt reached sky high with respect to Christian population alone.’

            Hahaha, the parrot offers no statistics for my state, but denies the tremendous increase of Tamil nadu conversions after tsunami. He can’t even see his hypocrisy!!!

            “Most of them haven’t gone anywhere. ”

            Doesn’t change the reality that many did. The price of sleeping on the job while caldwell’s played with Tamil samskruthi and history–separating it from vedic tradition.

            “Use your brain nyaya. The reddys voted for YSR because he was a reddy. Supporting their jaathi member is indeed their dharma.”

            AHAHAHA, the pea brained parrot can’t see that supporting jathi member doing wrong is ADHARMA. That is the whole message of Mahabharata. Even family members and gurus fighting on side of adharma have to be opposed. But parrot got even basic facts of mahabharata, so naturally can’t understand this lesson.

            HE CAN’T EVEN SEE HOW THIS UNDERCUTS HIM!!!

            Next Vyas will say if jati member commits crime–you can’t turn him into police–have to support jati!!!! Wah, what sense of logic and justice…

            “The core problem is your jaathi feeling starts and ends with just voting. There is much more to it than just voting. ”

            Parrot cannot see that YSR took care of reddy caste–but began destroying non-reddy lower classes of society with conversions. That’s what happens when jathi is prioritized over society. But parrots cannot understand this–they just repeat ” “yowar jathis bill tage care ob eberything”–while forgetting about rest of hindu society.

            “Even now my state is highly anti-Brahmin. So what? ‘

            Parrot cannot see that anti-brahminism destroys hindu culture. But parrots don’t care, they just want power.

            “It was indeed too much focus on linguistic identity that made you blind to other identities,”

            Parrot still cannot see he has undercut himself.

            He has been utterly debunked on jatis with the reddy and jat example where jati conscious votes brought adharmic governments to power. Language was nowhere on the agenda in 2004/2009. He’s completely embarrassing himself again.

            He keeps repeating jatis will take care of everything without deploying logic.

            “YSR is not the culprit my friend”

            Parrot is now blatantly lying. It was ysr gov that tried to build churches on holy hills of Tirupati itself. Looks like parrot is on the YSR family payroll.

            “That’s because your stupid Hindutva forces keep focusing on destroying jaathis in the name of religion. It is they who have turned minorities permanently in favor of congress. ”

            AHAHA, next parrot will say that hindutva people caused partition riots, that godhra train burning was hindutva conspiracy, and that hindutva people should return babri to muslims. He doesn’t realize that fundoo clerics force their religion people to vote for congress and feed them with anti-hindu propaganda, that’s why they vote for congress.

            But when same parrots couldn’t handle caldwell propaganda–how can they understand jehadi congress propaganda!!!

            “You are simply unqualified to talk about eelam issue. ”

            Parrot doesn’t care if tamilians are branded and used as terrorists. Only cares about jathis even when entire tamil jatis were falling to caldwell propaganda–parrots slept on the job…

            “True. Only because they were language chauvinists like you.”

            Parrot can’t understand that language culture space can’t be ceded to caldwell propagandists. Tamil brahmins may have been so foolish–but Telugu brahmins are not. That is why rather than jathi, the connection between regional culture and dharma has to be emphasized–That is what true brahmins do.

            “How many can you convert using sword? ”

            Ladies and gentlemen–we have a winner!!! For most asinine statement of the year!!. Entire pakistan and afghanistan are examples of conversion by the sword. Parrots are willing to keep squawking in the face of all facts–because they don’t know history or have the brain capacity to use logic

            “Moreover do you think the jaathi men’s hands will be plucking flower when our enemies show their sword?”

            Hahaha, yeah, kulachar obsessed tamil brahmins will be a real power with their brahmadandas after having alienated all the trained jathis who could have protected them.

            “Those are all areas where jaathi has been completely dismantled.”

            Oh yes, jathis completely dismantled in kashmir too!!! At the swordpoint…

            “Looks like you have run out of intellectual ideas which is why you are bringing in unrelated comments into the discussion.”

            Says the parrot who can only repeat: “yowar jathis bilk tage care ob eberything” sans explanation…

            “Funny. A person who knows nothing about his own people is blaming others. What an irony. First know your people and then you can pontificate about history or geography.”

            AHAHA, Senthil scores such a bad self-goal on himself by getting Telangana geography wrong and parrot didn’t even know about Nizam Andhra Mahasabha in Hyderabad state Telangana, he’s lecturing on learning history and geography!!! He truly is the king of clowns…

            “I’ve already explained about this in my previous comments. ”

            Parrot was debunked on YSR jathi issue, because hindu reddy’s brought a christian reddy to power in the name of jathi. Only problem is parrots can’t understand logic to see how it undercuts them. HE was also terrified of UP issue, which is why he didn’t even have cojones to touch on that.

            Parrot’s people have been defeated in Tamil Nadu, shame brought on the very name of tamils with Eelam terrorists, and he is lecturing on failed states.

            He doesn’t know samskruthi, he doesn’t know mahabharata, he doesn’t know dharma, he doesn’t know history, he doesn’t know geography, and he can’t even comprehend profanity…Yet he still pretends like he has any credibility. Truly shameless.

            “Accept your defeat and move on. ”

            Tamil brahmins got defeated. Telugu brahmins have more sense than to let outsiders define telugu samskruthi and hindu dharma.

            Also parrot was defeated and humiliated long ago–that’s why he’s been desperately trying to erase the stain of his previous drubbing–only end result is his complete and utter deconstruction…

            Keep it coming, beta. The more you wriggle in frustration, the more yours and senthil’s desperation to distraction from his blunder on telangana (drakshamarama) will be apparent to all readers. Kudos!

  60. vyas says:

    //orders can be given in 3000 dialects on battlefield//

    Pls wait until I get a new set of tapes. You can then continue your baby rhymes again.

    //it’s to convert lower classes who will then use violence against brahmins//

    You must be living in Amazon forests I believe. In TN, Brahmins were predominantly attacked only verbally, never physically. But the Brahmins do deserve it. They violated their varna dharma and are now paying the price for the same.

    // I explained my statements and logic//

    Logic? That needs brain my dear. Do you have it? Where is it? Let me see…..

    //Hahahaha, oh my God, he really is a parrot. He doesn’t even have the intellectual equipment to address the logic of the point. Caste feeling gave CM seat to christian reddy. Christian reddy then used cm chair to target “economically weakened” jathis. Even children can understand this.//

    You keep singing the same parrot song my dear. First think what made the jaathis economically weaker and then talk about targeting. You deprived jaathis of their rights which made them weaker over the years. AP was vulnerable already. YSR just exploited it. If those economically weaker jaathis were self sustained, YSR could not have touched them.

    //He gives no explanations on how jati will save at jehadi swordpoint//

    This shows you have absolutely no idea about jaathi as a social setup. The Jehadi swordpoint stuff never worked on a large scale back in those days. Our kings gave the moghuls a run for their money. The kshatriya class in every village ensured that the individual jaathis are always protected. This is why we are still 80% Hindus even after 800 years of invasion. Coming to the modern times, jehadi swords can’t sway in areas where jaathis are strong. In addition to that the strategy for conversion lately has changed. Nobody can convert anyone here at sword/gunpoint. Looks like you are still living in ghori’s era.

    //Parrots can’t even understand basic concepts like divide and rule–and he lectures on history!!! Hahaha, what a joke.//

    It’s parrots like you who need to understand this. My point is that numbers doesn’t matter. The British example that I showed was only to prove that. A minority crowd like them could succeed over us just using a bit of intellect. Use the same approach to tackle the muslims. Just because they increased by a marginal number in Telangana doesn’t necessarily mean they are a threat.

    //He can’t speak cause he has no statistics, while I have provided. Only his worthless, fact free opinion//

    Funny. You just gave 2001 sensus my dear which was only 6% Christians. Then you are speculating like “After tsunami the entire TN got converted to christianity blah blah…”. I can’t be responding for such nonsenses.

    //because tamil brahmins were sleeping on the job obsessing about jathi instead of educating other varnas on samskruti and dharma//

    I never denied it. I keep saying that the Brahmins did violate their varna dharma everywhere in the country. This holds true for AP brahmins too my dear. What they did was a mistake and there is no second opinion about it. Though they violated their dharma, they never converted to another religion.

    //Proper understanding of samskruthi and dharma means caldwell propaganda will be laughed at by even lower classes.//

    Ha ha ha. It’s funny to see pseudo Hindus like you talking about dharma. You are probably the greatest culprits who buried dharma completely and now shedding crocodile tears for the same. Keep going my dear. All the best for creating a new Abrahamic religion.

    //AHAHAHA, the pea brained parrot can’t see that supporting jathi member doing wrong is ADHARMA//

    You are convoluting the argument. If YSR was a true Christian he would have first given up his jaathi identity (christianity doesn’t acknowledges jaathi) which he didn’t. This is more than proof that he was more attached to his jaathi than his religion. Secondly he resorted to large scale evangelization activities as per orders from his masters in Delhi. You can’t expect the Reddys to do anything about it. It’s not their fault. Also you are talking as if only the Reddy’s voted for him. The whole of AP voted for him and brought him back the second time. So according to your own argument all Hindus of AP who voted for YSR have committed a much greater Adharma. This is why I said jaathi’s as groups voting for their leaders is not going to have any major impact because nobody will get a majority and a consensus will need to be reached between the leaders to form a govt. This way each jaathi can protect their own rights.

    //Next Vyas will say if jati member commits crime–you can’t turn him into police–have to support jati!!!! Wah, what sense of logic and justice…//

    It’s a pity that you don’t know anything about jaathi and the social structure that prevailed in India. Jaathis will always support their own people even when he/she commits a crime. This is where the panchayat comes into the picture and when that eventually fails, the matter goes to the king. The king cannot and should not be biased which is against his dharma. Jaathi members should be biased which is their dharma. This holds true even inside families. When a father commits a crime, the son will and should support him. This is why even today in our courts, witnesses will not be accepted if they are close relatives to the convict. People who equate dharma to bible/kuran cannot understand this.

    //Parrot cannot see that YSR took care of reddy caste–but began destroying non-reddy lower classes of society with conversions. That’s what happens when jathi is prioritized over society. But parrots cannot understand this–they just repeat ” “yowar jathis bill tage care ob eberything”–while forgetting about rest of hindu society.//

    You are again showing your insanity here. Non-reddy lower castes means what? They too belong to some jaathi right? Why did those other jaathis allow this to happen? Whose fault is that? You see the jaathi equation only from YSR’s point of view. That’s the whole problem. Look at it from the other side too. This is why I keep saying that YSR only exploited the already existing vulnerability. Our task now is strengthen the jaathis so that no single jaathi could show their monopoly all over.

    //He has been utterly debunked on jatis with the reddy and jat example where jati conscious votes brought adharmic governments to power//

    Funny. Jaathi was used only to bring in votes my dear. All their rights were grabbed and they were orphaned out. It’s clearly evident that you have absolutely no idea about how jaathi functions. You equate it to some stupid forum where people join together for performing some task and then leave. Try to use your brain and analyze this. If you don’t have one (I’m sure you don’t) at least borrow it from someone (but not from Rajiv as you do it very often).

    //Language was nowhere on the agenda in 2004/2009//

    You’ll never understand because you’re completely lost. I asked you to stop focusing on language and look at people from bottom up. Yes, you did favor the jaathis but only for votes and nothing else. It was because you focused too much on language all these decades that made you to lose focus on other social constructs. Over a period of time these important social constructs (like jaathi) weakened and became vulnerable which is what people like YSR exploited.

    //Entire pakistan and afghanistan are examples of conversion by the sword. Parrots are willing to keep squawking in the face of all facts–because they don’t know history or have the brain capacity to use logic//

    You are conveniently taking one portion of my statement and playing your pandora box. Pakistan/Afganistan are areas where religious identities reign. There is no place for jaathi there. India until this very moment is dharmic and there is no place for religion here. It is the Hindutva morons that bring the religious equation into the picture and aftermath is what we are facing today.

    //yeah, kulachar obsessed tamil brahmins will be a real power with their brahmadandas after having alienated all the trained jathis who could have protected them.//

    I only pity your knowledge my dear nyaya. In traditional societies, the kshatriya varna will protect all jaathis in the society. If someone shows you a sword these people will not be sitting and eating apples. They’ll fight unto death to save their people. This is how we were able to contain conversion for over 800 years.

    You have long been defeated nyaya. Your linguistic AP has FAILED. Don’t repeat your junk arguments. Go and see if you can keep atleast the remaining non-converts in bifurcated AP intact. You don’t know an inch about our traditional societies. All you know is just the useless Hindutva. You are one sick example of an internet Hindu motivated by those stupid youtube gurus. If possible go and better educate yourself and stop being the north side of a south facing horse.

    • nyaya says:

      Awww, bechara vyas is having an aneurysm!!! He’s been called illogical even by other people. That’s why he’s running scared back here to vent his frustrations at being a nonentity (he will have to google this word too).

      “Pls wait until I get a new set of tapes. You can then continue your baby rhymes again.”

      It’s the only way I can teach a parrot how to remember why he lost. He doesn’t seem to realize he was defeated long ago, when he was demolished on fact after fact from samskruthi to mahabharata to national language.

      “In TN, Brahmins were predominantly attacked only verbally, never physically. But the Brahmins do deserve it.”

      What a joke, parrot has sunk so low to ally with jehadis and missionaries he’s even denying physical attacks on brahmins that happened in TN. Parrot doesn’t even know his own state’s history (links to follow).

      Parrot even missed the point. Anti-brahminism is the means to attack hindu dharma. SO missionaries convert lower castes with propaganda, then brahmins isolated. Even other upper castes like kshatriyas are too few in number since OBCs and SCs are much larger population.

      Ahaha, parrot is utterly clueless. Digvijay Singh is of kshatriya birth–even this fraud has converted to be in fonia’s inner congress circle. Other kshatriyas have also sold out due to loss of dharma. So who will protect brahmins? Parrot doesn’t know logic or current events.

      “Logic? That needs brain my dear. Do you have it? ”

      Ahahaha, other commenters don’t even want to talk to parrot . They are avoiding vyas because he has no brains and no logic!!

      “YSR just exploited it. ”

      YSR was the culprit. The parrot still doesn’t get it!!! There are poorer states in India, but because YSR had CM chair, he had greater power to use gov power to convert people through gov schemes. Even new islamic college in tirupati is legacy of his misrule. Even children can understand this–but parrots can’t!!!

      “The Jehadi swordpoint stuff never worked on a large scale back in those days. Our kings gave the moghuls a run for their money.”

      Parrot doesn’t even know history!!! Rajputs themselves at one point were giving daughters to mughals. Kashmiri brahmin community was being slaughtered–mounds and mounds of sacred yajnopaveeths were piled up by Jehadis. Kashmiri brahmin women were sent to harems. This changed the demographic religious ratio in kashmir. Parrot needs to read and think before opening his trap.

      Parrot thinks he can fight machine gun armed jehadis with kamandalam!!

      “This is why we are still 80% Hindus even after 800 years of invasion”

      Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh all lost to Jehadis. All were previously part of India. If parrot knew history, he would see that Akhand Bharat hindu percentage is between 67-50%. Parrot also doesn’t see that saudi support increases power of jehadis beyond mere population percentage.

      “Nobody can convert anyone here at sword/gunpoint. Looks like you are still living in ghori’s era.”

      Parrot needs to learn to read to see news coming from pakistan and bangladesh. 3000 sindhi hindu women kidnapped, raped and converted over past 10 years in pakistan. Parrot thinks kamandalam will stop this…

      “It’s parrots like you who need to understand this. My point is that numbers doesn’t matter. The British example that I showed was only to prove that. A minority crowd like them could succeed over us just using a bit of intellect”

      AHAHAHA, parrot is going so crazy, he can’t even think of own lines!! He also knows he has egg on his face from his british remark because he himself said “no logic” to british ruling India:

      “There is no logic for issues like this. A micro minority community like the British ruled us for around 200 years.”

      But more evolved lifeforms can see there was logic. British played divide and rule game, and moronic parrots fell for it. Modern parrots are repeating same mistake by obsessing about jatis instead of hindu unity against common oppressors.

      “Funny. You just gave 2001 sensus my dear”

      AHAHA, parrot doesn’t realize he just undercut himself. He himself admitted I gave census data–he gave NONE for his AP conversion projections, but demands I have to give tsunami percentage data. He gives no data and pulls facts from thin era–I gave census data and used logic to mention tsunami conversions–Breaking India itself touches on tsunami resulting in more conversions. But parrot can’t read!!

      “I never denied it. ”

      Yet parrot thinks same people sleeping on the job are now in a position to lecture AP brahmins–can’t see how their failure disqualifies them from giving advice. They should fix their own house first before trying to break someone else’s.

      “Keep going my dear. All the best for creating a new Abrahamic religion.”

      AHAHA, PARROT ALREADY SUPPORTED JEHADI THEORIES ABOUT HINDUTVA PUSHING MINORITIES TO CONGRESS–AND HE IS ACCUSING OF ABRAHAMISM–WHAT A JOKE!!!. Next parrot will say that hindutva people caused partition riots, that godhra train burning was hindutva conspiracy, and that hindutva people should return babri to muslims.
      He doesn’t realize that fundoo clerics force their religion people to vote for congress and feed them with anti-hindu propaganda, that’s why they vote for congress.

      ” If YSR was a true Christian he would have first given up his jaathi identity (christianity doesn’t acknowledges jaathi) which he didn’t. ”

      Parrot doesn’t realize that YSR USED his family’s jathi to build support base among reddy’s. Reddy caste controls AP congress–which commands loyalty of certain sections. This Reddy jathi support got him congress and cm seat–he then used that to convert vulnerable classes. Parrot still doesn’t understand how missionaries work. Parrot probably thinks Fonia became a Parsi!!!

      ” Secondly he resorted to large scale evangelization activities as per orders from his masters in Delhi. You can’t expect the Reddys to do anything about it.”

      Parrot doesn’t understand that people break away from delhi masters all the time. NCP and TMC themselves did. Even now CM Kiran Kumar reddy is defying center–he will lose, but at least he realizes the dharmic thing to do–irrespective of victory or defeat. Dharma means opposing Adharmic king, Adharmic jathi brother, or Adharmic family member–even Adharmic guru. But parrots who don’t understand even meaning of samskruthi or who get basic facts of Mahabharata wrong can’t under stand that.

      “When a father commits a crime, the son will and should support him.”

      AHAHAHA, THIS IS PARROT’S DHARMA!! SON SHOULD SUPPORT FATHER IN CRIME!!! WAH, WHAT A BEAUTIFUL AND JUST SOCIETY THESE VILLAGE RUSTICS WANT TO BUILD!!!

      “Why did those other jaathis allow this to happen? Whose fault is that?”

      Parrot cannot see that he already contradicted himself. First he accepts that there are economically vulnerable jatis who can be converted–then he asks how same economically vulnerable jatis allowed to happen. NO LOGIC CAPACITY!!!

      “//He has been utterly debunked on jatis with the reddy and jat example where jati conscious votes brought adharmic governments to power//
      Funny. Jaathi was used only to bring in votes my dear.”

      That’s the whole point, parrot!!! USE JATI TO BRING IN VOTES THEN DO ADHARMIC THINGS LIKE CONVERSION AND SUPPORT FOR JEHADIS!!! looks like it’s clear who needs a brain donor!

      ” Yes, you did favor the jaathis but only for votes and nothing else. ”

      Still the point, parrot. Use jathis to divide hindus and split votes–then unify minorities. End result is congress governement–which parrot and his master clearly support.

      “Pakistan/Afganistan are areas where religious identities reign. ”

      PARROT DOESN”T REALIZE THERE WERE DHARMIC JATI IDENTITIES IN AF/PAK BEFORE CONVERSION AT SWORDPOINT TO CREATE NEW RELIGIOUS IDENTITIES!!!! NO LOGIC CAPACITY!!

      “In traditional societies, the kshatriya varna will protect all jaathis in the society”

      Parrot still doesn’t realize we no longer have traditional societies. Can’t turn the clock back. Kshatriyas like Digvijay Singh have themselves converted! Parrot thinks jati dharma of dalits and obcs will save him after parrot perverted dharma.

      “You have long been defeated nyaya. ‘

      AHAHA, parrot used to give lectures about not doing debate for victory–now out of frustration he has to give false declaration of defeat. He must have had a stroke!!! Parrot should get medical help—where is veterinarian!!! Ahahaha

      Ultimately, parrot’s frustration and collapsing self-esteem from his comprehensive and multiple defeats in debate are clear. All he can do now is distract from Senthil’s catastrophic self-goal on draksharamam. But he doesn’t realize, all he is doing is destroying both their credibility and validating what others said about how parrot doesn’t use logic.

      Parrot should do what parrots do best, and fly away to save what remains of his dignity instead of fighting his betters and being pulled on donkey to south direction like ravana was.

      • nyaya says:

        2/2. Links:

        Vyas said this above : “In TN, Brahmins were predominantly attacked only verbally, never physically.’

        Proof of physical attacks on brahmins in TN:

        “The rise of the DMK was marked by physical abuse of Brahmins in public spaces”

        http://www.vijayvaani.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?aid=1706

        “Shri. Subramaniam Swamy was physically assaulted by “Dravidian” neanderthal thugs inside court premises.”

        http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/02/brutal-fascism-on-display-in.html

        “From time to time, activists of the Dravidar Kazhagam have also launched physical attacks on Brahmins.[107] Tempers reached a boiling point when a member of the Dravidar Kazhagam tried to assassinate Rajagopalachari”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy#Violence_by_Periyar.27s_followers

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Respect_Movement#Anti-Brahmanism

        So, vyas was proven wrong again–there were physical attacks on brahmins by dravidian movement people. There was even an attempted killing of Rajagopalacari. It appears he doesn’t know the history of his own state and community.

      • nyaya says:

        Links only going through one at a time due to blog setting (other comment awaiting moderation):

        “The rise of the DMK was marked by physical abuse of Brahmins in public spaces”

        http://www.vijayvaani.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?aid=1706

      • nyaya says:

        Vyas said this above : “In TN, Brahmins were predominantly attacked only verbally, never physically.’

        Further proof of physical attacks on brahmins in TN:

        “From time to time, activists of the Dravidar Kazhagam have also launched physical attacks on Brahmins.[107] Tempers reached a boiling point when a member of the Dravidar Kazhagam tried to assassinate Rajagopalachari”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy#Violence_by_Periyar.27s_followers

        So, vyas was proven wrong again–there were physical attacks on brahmins by dravidian movement people. There was even an attempted killing of Rajagopalacari. It appears he doesn’t know the history of his own state and community.

        • vyas says:

          WoW!!! The person who blasted Senthil in every frame for showing content from wikipedia is shamelessly doing the same when it’s convenient for him. What a shame!!!. This moron doesn’t even know the difference between Brahmins and Brahminism. The DK attacked Brahminism and not the Brahmins. Those Brahmins that were attacked (Rajaji) was the result of their exhibition of Brahminism. If their intention was to attack/kill the Brahmins, not one could have survived in TN thus far, as they’ve been in power continuously for about five decades and could have completely wiped out the Brahmins without a trace, but such a thing never happened. Also this moron doesn’t even know that U.V.Swaminathan Iyer, a Brahmin is still considered the grandfather of Tamil – Tamil Thaatha (for his phenomenal contribution to Tamil) the highest status enjoyed by any civilian in DK ruled TN.

          Mr. Nyaya you are putting yourself to shame by being consistently defeated. You don’t understand an inch about our social structure. I’ve clearly proved that jaathi identity surpasses even religious identity. Jaathi is the only entity that has the power to bring people back to their dharma even if they are converted. It has also been clearly proven that conversion tactics work only in places where jaathis are weak and/or almost dismantled. The jaathi structure is pretty strong in the North compared to the South, which is why conversion rate is very low. A demographics of conversion rate based on jaathis will clearly show this.

          It is very clear from even top level people like YSR himself are reluctant to shed their jaathi identities come what may. They’ll not inter-marry even with other christian or muslim communities (this holds true for every jaathi and not just the reddys). Even today, the converted muslims and christians of TN hold on to their jaathi identities pretty tightly which is directly contradictory to the doctrines of their religion. You stupid Hindutva people will never recognize this because you are too busy creating Abrahamic Hinduism. Jaathi is the only way to protect our dharma in modern times. Hindutva people cling on to religious identities which is going to be a disaster for sure.

          • nyaya says:

            “WoW!!! The person who blasted Senthil in every frame for showing content from wikipedia is shamelessly doing the same when it’s convenient for him. What a shame!!!. ”

            AHAHAHA. Parrot is BLIND, DEAF, and DUMB!!! Cognitively defective parrot cannot see that I also gave a VIJAYVAANI LINK –comment is there for all to see. VIJAYVAANI IS THE SAME SOURCE WHERE SENTHIL’s OWN ARTICLE WAS PUBLISHED!!! Parrot can only lie because he doesn’t have brainpower to argue on facts.

            What’s more, senthil was criticized for wikipedia maps because 1. He is submitting published ARTICLES, I am only commenter, disproving an idiot parrot hired by senthil. Of course senthil will be criticized–he is trying to be published intellectual, but he is abusing reader’s trust with unreliable source 2.His Wikipedia map itself was dubious and his interp proven wrong!!!. SILLY PARROT LOSES AGAIN!

            “This moron doesn’t even know the difference between Brahmins and Brahminism. The DK attacked Brahminism and not the Brahmins. ”

            WAHAHAHA. BRAIN DEAD PARROT CAN’T EVEN SEE HIS OWN PEOPLE WERE ATTACKED–For being brahmins–Vijayvaani article clearly states this!!!! HE IS SO DESPERATE, HE IS LYING FLAT OUT TO SUPPORT HIS MISSIONARY SPONSORS. Vijayvaani and other articles themselves said brahmins were being attacked for own sake and dravidian calls to make brahmin women non-brahmin common property. Not only is parrot willing to sell out Hindu dharma, he will sell out his own Jati and women!! HE IS A TRAITOR IN EVERY WAY AND EVEN A DALAL!!

            MENTAL CASE PARROT STILL DOESN”T SEE HE GOT CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE!!! HE SAID:

            “In TN, Brahmins were predominantly attacked only verbally, never physically.”

            I have given full background proof of physical attacks on brahmins. Still he lies because he has no honor, shame, or honesty.

            YET STILL HE HAS SHAMELESSNESS TO SHOW HIS FACE AFTER BEING TROUNCED AGAIN! He doesn’t know Mahabharata and he doesn’t know his own history.

            “U.V.Swaminathan Iyer, a Brahmin is still considered the grandfather of Tamil ”

            None of this changes the fact that Parrot said this:

            “In TN, Brahmins were predominantly attacked only verbally, never physically.”

            And he was proven wrong. He gives no links or proof, and yet brays about my links.

            “Mr. Nyaya you are putting yourself to shame by being consistently defeated. ”

            PARROT IS CONTINUING TO SQUAWK AFTER BEING EXPOSED ON NOT KNOWING ABOUT PHYSICAL VIOLENCE AGAINST BRAHMINS–yet look at how he lies!!! So incredibly and utterly shameless. Truly like lowest form of life–pakistani–he takes his catastrophic defeats in war and calls it victory!! Ahahaha.

            Same person who claimed he doesn’t think debate is about winning or lose is now making false claims to victory–just like a pakistani!

            “It is very clear from even top level people like YSR himself are reluctant to shed their jaathi identities come what may. ”

            Parrot cannot see that YSR took care of reddy caste–but began destroying non-reddy lower classes of society with conversions. That’s what happens when jathi is prioritized over society. But parrots cannot understand this–they just repeat ” “yowar jathis bill tage care ob eberything”–while forgetting about rest of hindu society

            Parrot was disproven on this point about dangers of jati obsession–because YSR has proven how missionaries use jatis to divide hindus and unify minorities. Because he is shameless, Parrot even lied about conversions by sword!!! Still he has shamelessness to come back and comment. That is what happens when parrots are ruled by pride rather than dharma. He is example of False Brahmin–and will meet same fate as Ravana.

            “You stupid Hindutva people will never recognize this because you are too busy creating Abrahamic Hinduism. ”

            AHAHA, drooling parrot is actually on Side of Congress–that’s why he blamed BJP for minorities voting Congress. Next parrot will say that hindutva people caused partition riots, that godhra train burning was hindutva conspiracy, and that hindutva people should return babri to muslims. He doesn’t realize that fundoo clerics force their religion people to vote for congress and feed them with anti-hindu propaganda, that’s why they vote for congress.

            All this shows is casteist jati obsessed worms are nothing but traitors–they are termites selling out their own dharma, jati, and even women n the name of perversions of Dharma. They are so shameless-they can’t even accept when they have been REPEATEDLY disproven, exposed as liars, and defeated.

            Parrot doesn’t even have manhood to give point for point answer–because he is not a real man. He is only a shameless troll hired to cover for Senthil’s self-goals (i..e draksharamam)

            As readers can see in other Telangana thread, it’s clear that even other commenters say there is no logic in Vyas’ sentences–so they even say flat out they avoid him. That’s how much a low grade, degenerate commenter Vyas is…

            As readers can see, Vyas was shown as wrong and/or lying on:

            1. Mahabharata–he didn’t even know who killed Drona–even children know this.
            2. Dravidian movement–didn’t even know that brahmins were physically attacked
            3. YSR–shown how YSR unified reddy caste and got hindu reddy support to get CM seat–then converted poorer castes, thereby proving the dangers of voting on Jati rather than Dharma.

            4. Mistranslated culture as kulachar instead of samskruthi.
            5. British rule–Vyas said specifically said “no logic”. But divide and rule tactic of Brits is logic known to even children.
            6. Said criminal father should be supported by son and jati, so hindu reddy’s should support evangelist YSR–showing how casteists have neither proper understanding of varnashramadharma, hindu dharma, morality, or justice.

            Vyas, is a joke. That is why I speak of him in the third person–he was demolished long ago. He has neither the brains to understand history, geography, or dharma nor the morality and integrity to accept that he’s been routinely and comprehensively defeated and humiliated here. Such a person can only be pitied as donkey drags him south

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