war of 3 indias – my response to Rajeev Malhotra

Rajeev Malhotra, had written about the war between three indias, in his blog in firstpost, describing about existence of three different indias, which is mutually at conflict with each other.  This is a very important article, because so far none of the intellectuals and think tanks ever recognised or accepted that three indias exists.  They have been telling that whole of india is ONE, and it is divisive to see it as different indias.  Even the Hindutva vadis were more adamant in such “One India” attitude.

Now, with public acceptence of three indias, there is a new shift in the intellectual debate, which i feel can address some of the critical issues, which was put under carpet for all these days.

While Rajeev had articulated his views with clarity, there are certain things which i feel, he himself has not understood (or could not publicly write).  I had written a response to his article as comment in that first post article.  I wish to reproduce the same in my blog for further discussion.

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http://www.firstpost.com/blogs/3-indias-at-war-sensex-india-maoist-india-and-bharat-876705.html#comment-933866589

1. Rajeev said that three indias are at war with each other. NO.. It is the sensex india, which has colonised the other two indias and exploiting it.  He had acknowledged this fact in the later part of his article. Yet he chose to call it as mutual war b/w three indias, while the fact is that tribal india and traditional india are the worst victims.

Pls note that it is the sensex india had inherited the totalatarian power from britishers, and continuing the same colonial apparatus, laws, constitution that was used for subjugating the other two india.  It has destroyed the traditional autonomous administrative systems of the other two indias, thus paralysing and impoverising them.

2. Maoist India is a reaction to the sensex india, exploiting the forest lands of tribals.. The tribals has no reason to support maoists, if their land is secure? The Tribals are always an independant entity for thousands of years, which all our hindu kings had recognised. Chanakya in arthshasthra says that a king has to protect the forests, and befriend the forest dwellers. In many cases, the kings of bharath, would pay tribute to the tribal people to protect the caravans of traders passing through their forests. (They dont go and persecute tribas as current sensex india does)

The tribal people have their own administrative system.. and wherever there are clashes within tribes, our hindu kings would intervene and establish an administrative system comprising of their own people. (eg: Munda people of jharkhand)

The britishers oppressed them, and took away the autonomy of the tribals in order to plunder resources. The Sensex India which inherited the colonial instrument as it is, should have restored the autonomy, and traditional administrative system of the tribals and ensured that sensex india could get natural resources only with permission of the tribal india . But it did not do so, and in turn, signed MoU with Steel and Mineral Companies and given a free hand to them in exploiting the resources. When the tribals oppose, the police force is deployed to protect these MNCs.  This made the tribals side with Maoists to oppose this sensex india. How can we accuse tribals for that, when the culprit is sensex india?  The solution is NOT eliminating maoists, but to restore tribal autonomy and recognise tribal rights over their forest land.

3. Rajeev said Traditional Bharath is NOT perfect and cannot handle currently huge populations. This is wrong, absurd and weird opinionated comment. The traditional bharath is supporting 70% of today’s indian population, eventhough its traditional administration system was paralysed by sensex india.

Can the traditional bharath support rising populations? A simple maths would suffix.

There are 6 lakh villages in traditional bharath. and if all 1.2 billion people have to relocated to traditional india, it would come only 2000 people for each village. Since people live as families, divide this 2000 / 4 = 500 families.  Which means just 500 houses for each village.  NOT a big number, for any individual village.

The sense india views villages from colonial perspective, where villages are looked as just marshal lands, comprising of uncivilised people. The Village of west is NOT same as Grama of our civilization.  (Sanskrit Non-Translatables comes in to picture here)

But the truth is that the gramas and Nagaras of traditional bharath are properly planned, perfectly built and well designed by our kings .  Chanakya’s Arthashasthra details on how a grama should be built.  Grama devata was the centre of the grama, and there are protective gods at the borders of four directions of the village.

Even today, most of gramas in tamilnadu, have “Ellai Karuppanar” (border protective deity) worshipped by the people.  Its worshipped in my village too every year.   However, the Judiciary of sensex India had destroyed many of these “Ellai Karuppanar” as street temples occupying public places.

Every village was created for fixed population, with a fixed boundary and when population of the village increases, a new grama was created by our kings. But after 1947, the sensex india, did not create any new village for growing population,  and in turn destroyed existing villages to expand their metros.

It had destroyed native administrative systems of traditional bharat and paralysed its function making them unable to create new villages, to adjust their population.

So Rajeev’s concern whether traditional bharath could sustain such large population is mis-placed.  On other hand, the sensex india, which has only 30% of our population , is struggling to sustain it .  And it is able to function only by exploiting resources from the Traditional bharath and the Tribal Bharath.

So the very design of sensex india (metros, towns) are too artificial, that it cannot function without sucking out resources from other two india, and hence root cause of maoism.

Yet the intellectuals of this sensex india, treats this as development, and wants to expand it by destroying villages.   Few years back, one urban hindutva person wrote in a discussion group, that villages are bane of india, and hence has to be destroyed.  Such is the abusive attitude that sensex india has on other two.

4. Ethnic Identities: Rajeev says that ethnic identities are being used to break india.   I dont know what he means by ethnic?  He might be referring to dravidian, and dalit identities, which are ideological and NOT ethnic.

The real ethnic regions of india are the ancient dhesams of bharatha varsham. These ethnic dhesams are NEVER demanded any separate nation.  They just want autonomy.  NOT independance. Telengana is one such example.  Just see the list of aspiring states of india.  For eg, Mythila society is the historic society of Videha Kingdom of Janaka.

So ethnicity is NEVER a tool for breaking india.  Rather, it is the linguistic states, which is dangerous, and divisive, and forges separate identity based on language.
5. Rajeev says that Smritis are outdated and hence had to be rewritten according to times. This is a wrong and absurd statements usually propogated by sensex india.

Smritis are NOT discarded. Manu smriti was the most restrictive and stricted and meant for Satya Yuga. For each subsequent yugas, our rishis just made some parts of manu smriti lenient but new smritis are certainly based on Manu smriti. They did not discard manu smriti.

The core of all smritis is Birth Based Varna system, and i challenge any one to disprove. The problem is NOT with varna or jathi or its birth based nature. The problem is with the perverted minds of sensex india, who could not think beyond colonial propoganda, and stereotypes.

The varna system is NOT for all populations. It is only for those settled societies. The forest dwellers, fisherman, shepherds, and other tribals are all NOT part of varna system. This is acknowledged in Manusmriti itself.  Infact, the varna society had recognised the roles of the forest dwellers, making them as witnesses in deciding boundaries of villages. Manusmriti clearly says that a king has to seek the help of forest dwellers to settle village disputes.

But the britishers had made the varna as totalatarian centralised system forcing everyone, including tribals, forest dwellers to fit in to any of the four varnas.  Instead of rectifying this colonial blunder, the Sensex India chose to continue same process and had further strengthened this distorted version.  The problem is NOT with smriti, but with the sensex india.

And Varna is NOT a centralised system. Rather it is just a framework for each Nagara and Grama. There is a kshatriya in each grama, brahmana in each grama, and shudras in each grama. Whenever new grama is created, the same varna society is its component.

Since gramas are created by clearing forests, the varna society and tribals had interaction, but without disturbing each other.  As such, the tribals are not allowed inside settlements of different jathis, because of extreme hygiene that jathis of varna society has to maintain.   The mahar jathi to which ambedkar belongs to are one such hunting tribes.  The british recruited mahars exactly because of this reason.

However, modern sensex india had branded these forest dwelling groups as dalits, and unleashed its vicious destructive propoganda on bharath.  And Rajeev wants to write a news smriti for Today’s Time, based on this perverted notion of varna by sensex india.  The “TODAY” that rajeev says is result of the destruction & chaos caused by sensex india, and he says we have to write new smritis that cater to this destructed society.  Is it logical?

Also on those days rishis wrote smritis (NOT kings nor ministers).  Who is eligible today to write a new smriti?  Those globe trotting fake gurus, who by Rajeev’s own words are ignorant of dharma, and live in Air-Conditioned rooms?
6. It is ironical that rajeev wants the Think Tanks and Intellectuals of the sensex india  to give a solution to these problems.  How can one expect these so called think tanks of sensex india, who always lived within metros and have no experience of the other two indias, to give solutions?

Its high time to stop this pathetic situation of sensex india deciding and controlling everything.  The traditional bharath should be allowed to decide and plan things on their own, and for their own life and culture.  The tribal india should be given the freedom to exercise control over their traditional homeland, and ingorant beurocrats sitting in delhi should not decide and order things for tribals.

Will Sensex India allow this?

As said before, The sensex india can function only on market based economy.  The gramas and nagaras of traditional bharath, are self-sustainable – they produce their own food, used bullok carts for transport, built their infrastructure using local resources, consumed less.  The tribals get everything they need for their life from the forests.  And such traditional bharath and tribal bharath are of no use to the corporates who control the sensex india, bcoz they dont buy products produced by these corporates.

Thus the traditional administrative and social structure was destroyed by sensex india, so that people will be dependant on government and corporates for their basic needs.  The only aim of sensex india is to make traditional india to buy more and more products from sensex india, and this is done under the name of development, progress etc.

Sensex India is the Criminal to be prosecuted:
Infact, the sensex india has to be Prosecuted for its crime unleashed on Traditional Bharath and Tribal bharath.  They are responsible for death of more than 10 lakh farmers across india, for polluting all major rivers, for exploiting minerals, and destroying the autonomy of traditional bharath and tribal bharath.

The suggestion of Rajeev Malhotra to evolve a new smriti based on sensex india and traditional bharath is akin to asking Rapist and Raped to arrive at common understanding.  That’s NOT possible.

Today the uprooted wonders of sensex india wants to build a nation.  But the reality is that they are building a state (India), by destroying the nation (Bharath)

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354 Responses to war of 3 indias – my response to Rajeev Malhotra

  1. vyas says:

    //There are 6 lakh villages in traditional bharath. and if all 1.2 billion people have to relocated to traditional india, it would come only 2000 people for each village. Since people live as families, divide this 2000 / 4 = 500 families. Which means just 500 houses for each village. NOT a big number, for any individual village.//

    Senthil – Pls stop pontificating this absurd math again and again. It’s very amateur to divide the number of villages/number of people and come to a conclusion that Bharath can support 1.2 billion population. If we go by that math and create 8 member families the total strength comes to around 2.4billion. Would you then say that we can double our population in the coming years safely? That’s ridiculous. Remember you are going to populate average humans in those villages and not sansayis. Even going by your math, not all six lakh villages have enough facilities like water, food, agriculture, medicine, sanitation etc. Even if you have them all, is that just enough? There are so many other things that humans need. How can we address them? And moreover India is a land of mountains, terrains, valleys, river beds etc. You simply cannot build houses everywhere you want to. Today, a majority of the Indian villages are having pathetic living standards and simply not fit for living. Are you really taking these factors in to consideration before uttering your statement? Your solution is feasible only when we populate sanyasis in those villages. Humans are always greedy. Once they get used to some kind of luxury, they’ll not go back. They’ll always try to find ways to get back that luxury in some way or the other. As Gurumurthy beautifully said, the Indian way of administration is going from ideal to practical. The communists follow the opposite whereby they go from practical to ideal, which is impossible in Kali Yuga. You are taking the same approach of the Communists and you know what happened to them right?

    Finally you’ve mistaken Rajiv’s statement. He didn’t mean to say that traditional Bharath is not suitable for current population levels. He only said that traditional Bharath simply cannot address the needs of modern India with such a big population.

    • senthil says:

      @vyas,

      The luxuries of the sensex india is possible only by looting the tribal and traditional india.. and knowing this, if you do not want sacrifice that, why should you talk about dharma at all? You can very well become christian or muslim and enjoy those luxuries very well without any guilt conscience..

      The villages of today are pathetic because the govt had destroyed the self-governing, traditional institutions.. The original design of a village was well planned, that takes care of all basic needs.. There are 18 diifferent vocational groups settles in each village, that produce all essential goods.. The rulers had built lakes and ponds to conserve water.. Infact the village landscape itself is so designed, that houses were built at higher elevations, while the lower elevations are converted in to ponds, so that rain water gets collected in that.

      Food is produced locally, and consumed locally even today.. Gurumurthy says around 60% of food is circulated within villages, and only 40% comes to urban market..

      Today just 30% of people migrated to urban centers, and the effect is felt.. when this increases to 50% & more it will become more and more unsustainable..

      If you are NOT ready to come out of your comfort and think what is right and wrong, there is no use in discussing about dharma or culture or tradition or anything.. Infact, this is the core problem of those who live in US, including Rajeev.. They want a traditional bharath that caters to the luxuries of the west..

      • vyas says:

        //The luxuries of the sensex india is possible only by looting the tribal and traditional india.. and knowing this, if you do not want sacrifice that, why should you talk about dharma at all? You can very well become christian or muslim and enjoy those luxuries very well without any guilt conscience..//

        Senthil – Would you pls define luxury first? For a person who is struggling hard for his daily meal, even a slipper is luxury. Would you then stop wearing it? Do you know how much natural resources are being destroyed for building the infrastructure for electricity and internet? Will you now stop using internet and electricity? Back in those days such technologies did not exist and it was enough to just build the infrastructure for basic needs of people. But considering the conditions today, it’s very difficult to plan the villages the same way it was done 200/300 years ago.

        // The original design of a village was well planned, that takes care of all basic needs.. There are 18 diifferent vocational groups settles in each village, that produce all essential goods.. The rulers had built lakes and ponds to conserve water.. Infact the village landscape itself is so designed, that houses were built at higher elevations, while the lower elevations are converted in to ponds, so that rain water gets collected in that.//

        This is simply not possible today. Back in those days there was neither such huge population nor huge number of villages as we have today. This helped them to design villages with enormous space for temples, canals etc. This method will simply not work today. Moreover is it just enough if we have space for houses alone in the villages? What about other entities like temples, churches, mosques and any other requirements? Where will we go for lands for those?

        //If you are NOT ready to come out of your comfort and think what is right and wrong, there is no use in discussing about dharma or culture or tradition or anything.. Infact, this is the core problem of those who live in US, including Rajeev.. They want a traditional bharath that caters to the luxuries of the west..//

        The question is not about you/me coming out of the comfort. The question is about changing the mindset which is next to impossibility. Technology and Communication have shrunken the whole world in to a small village. Even if you want to build self sustainable villages people will not be willing to do so. The real challenge lies in curbing physical mobility. The problem is going to become more worse in the near future. This is why Rajiv is saying that traditional Bharath is incapable of supporting current lifestyle. What’s wrong in saying that? Traditional Bharath was never designed for greedy. Today’s world is full of greed and traditional Bharath’s lifestyle is simply not suitable for this idiotic world. But still life must go on and we need to do something for survival. At most one can control greed but cannot destroy it. You fail to understand this.

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        The urban cities are unable to sustain large population.. if i tell, that we have to revive our gramas, then you say that is also NOT possible,.. what is the solution you propose?

      • desicontrarian says:

        @vyas,

        “This is simply not possible today. Back in those days there was neither such huge population nor huge number of villages as we have today. This helped them to design villages with enormous space for temples, canals etc. This method will simply not work today. Moreover is it just enough if we have space for houses alone in the villages? What about other entities like temples, churches, mosques and any other requirements? Where will we go for lands for those?”

        This is akin to saying that riding a tiger is inevitable, it is not possible to get off. A lot of brain-power is used to rationalize what we all know as the cause of disasters. Growth and hunger for growth. Can we not see the wisdom of words like “The earth has enough for every man’s needs, but not for every man’s greed?” Do we need something like a cataclysm? If there is a sudden loss of oil supply, the transport industry will come to a standstill. There will be chaos in the markets, there will be pain, but that eventually we will all adjust to decentralized, local-economy-based lifestyle. Why not do it in a less discontinuous manner, and reduce the pain?

        You have pointed out the problem of greed, but accept that as inevitable. That is pessimistic. As regards things like – will you stop using electricity, internet etc – no I won’t. But if I did, I could never communicate with you, or you with me. We all could learn to reduce our consumption of these utilities and thus reduce our foot-prints on the ecology.

    • senthil says:

      /** Senthil – Pls stop pontificating this absurd math again and again. It’s very amateur to divide the number of villages/number of people and come to a conclusion that Bharath can support 1.2 billion population
      **/

      First tell me how it is an absurd.. it is just a rough calculation, which will only give an idea.. A village is a well planned self-sustainable settlement, for fixed number of people.. when the population increases, new villages has to be created… what is there absurd in this? you are only displaying the contempt for the village as Rajeev does.. the colonial notion that villages are backward is strongly ingrained..

  2. P N Seshadri says:

    Your expos of Sensex shows the real picture of the corrosive nature of Sensex mindset. Sensex with all the support from the colonial paradigm based institutions is engaged in a single minded way to create a society made up of Relocatable, Reprogrammable, disposable individuals capable of doing the kind of economic activity to support the Sensrx “business model”. Sensex cannot afford stable and settled societies because it thrives on constant and continuous disturbance, fear and uncertainty. They love rootless individuals for their economic activities. How one can explain cold blooded murder of Tribal King Pravir of Bastar in 1966 in the then MP state.

  3. Does your Sensex India include the commies like Nehru, NGOs, leftie intellectuals who shout from rooftops that India is home to large number of poor, malnourished people etc. ? Or is it the usual culprit – Corporate India?

    How does the self sustainable model survive when the British reduced India from 23% of world GDP to 1% ? The models have all been destroyed leaving wretched conditions. We have to use the resources to build industries and feed people. If the tribals are self sufficient, how is it that most backward Human development indicators come from their areas ? Is it OK to leave them reeling in poverty and dark age medical aids because they do not want to come out of their places and meet the modern world ?

    • senthil says:

      /** Does your Sensex India include the commies like Nehru, NGOs, leftie intellectuals who shout from rooftops that India is home to large number of poor, malnourished people etc. ? Or is it the usual culprit – Corporate India?
      **/
      Yes.. if the term sensex india does not fit, we can use Colonial India..

      /** How does the self sustainable model survive when the British reduced India from 23% of world GDP to 1% ?
      **/

      The answer lies in your own sentence.. we survived, bcoz villages were self-sustainable..
      We were NOT export oriented economy.. when british reduced GDP to 1%, our prosperity was affected, but NOT our basic survival means..

      /** The models have all been destroyed leaving wretched conditions. If the tribals are self sufficient, how is it that most backward Human development indicators come from their areas ? ?**/

      Its NOT models.. its destruction of native administrative system, which left us in present wretched condition..

      for eg, pls take the example of Bastar region which i mentioned earlier. ( http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/a-king-mulls-over-two-strategies/article4651880.ece )

      The tribals had native administration with a king.. and sensex india dismantled this system, and imposed its colonial administration.. the tribals protested, but brutally suppressed, with killing of their king.. Rights of tax collection (which is essential to run traditional administration) was confiscated.. and more importantly, the tribal forest lands were mortgaged to MNC for exploitation.. This is the root cause of poverty and impoverishment..

      Why should you impose modern human development index (fixed by west for their capitalistic economy) be imposed upon tribals?

      /** Is it OK to leave them reeling in poverty and dark age medical aids because they do not want to come out of their places and meet the modern world
      **/

      1. The tribal medicine is NOT dark medical aids.. they are best suited for their own environment, life and culture.. calling them dark age is Colonial Stereotype.. The dark ages of europe need not be dark ages of our country..

      The tribals had been interacting with outside world for thousands of years.. but it is out of their own decision, and own needs.. they did not import all that is available in plains.. rather, they preserved their nature oriented life, and built infrastructure for their own needs, out of local materials..

      What is happening today is displacing them from their ethnic homeland, for MNC’s to exploit the forest.. is this what you support?

  4. swami says:

    Senthil,

    There are very few intellectuals and dharmic thinkers. You keep opposing them in a certain way because they do not align with your thoughts in few areas.
    Your thoughts may be true and might be the ground reality. But you fail to understand that people contribute and work at various layers.
    Every layer has different perspective. You need not go debate with each and every one.
    This approach of yours would definitely confuse a layman who reads your blogs. it wrongly promotes ideas and would further lead to de motivation.

    If you introspect, you always have something against contemporary thinkers.

    Subramanya swamy – you have something against him. Rajiv malhotra, you have something against him. Cho, you have something against him.
    Gurus – need not to say, you have something against them.

    What do you expect. Every indian intellectual should 100% align their thoughts among themselves and also align 100% with your thoughts?

    You can very well debate and present your thoughts. But it should add to what ever they have already contributed to.

    But the way you present your ideas, Its not going to reach Rajiv in a right way for him to understand and consider your ideas.

    More than that when a lay man reads, he would tend to oppose the intellectuals sub conciously after readnig your blog.

    This is a sure way to de-market the few intellectualls that we have in society.This will also create lack of unity between very few people who has dharmic thoughts.

    We will be another lok paritran like party.

    • senthil says:

      Thanks for your feedback.. i will take this in to consideration in future articles..

      In the beginning of this post, i mentioned that there are only few areas which i differ, and went on to explain those points.. i did not negate rajeev’s article entirely.. only few aspects of it.. i dont know what made you feel like it..

      Everyone thinks from their own point of view.. Infact Rajeev Malhotra himself calls for dharmic universalism which is different from western universalism.. can we say that we have to operate in both universalisms? NO.. the thought framework and the world view based on it are different here..

      Same way, i write articles based on the world view which i developed.. This may be contradictory to the world view of Urban Indians.. How can i cater to both world views? That would require me to come out of my world view, which will deter my understanding of many things..

      Pls remember, that while being as a reader, we are in neutral state.. whereas while conceptualising and writing an article, that’s not possible..

      Any way, i value your feedback, and try to improve my writing in future..

  5. swami says:

    Senthil,

    Though i like your blogs/debates and perspective a lot, off late you are so obsessive and divisive.

    1) The way you debate with others is always one directional. You do not make any attempt to understand the stand of the other. The other might have very good understanding but might miss just few points. Your contribution should be to add that from your experience. But you go out and debate. when you say “Subramanya swamis wrong understanding on muslim identity”, its just -ve marketing to him. All he has contributed is nullified in the minds of a lay man who reads your blog.

    2) I have never seen statements from you like “i understand your perspective, but dont you think this is also a possibility (and then you present your view)?”. Your approach will be “Person X is wrong and absurd in point ABCD (ex : Jaathi or graama)”

    3) You focus and debate a lot with the choice of words others used rather than trying to understand the intension of what the other tries to convey. I have felt this a lot. This is exactly what Rajiv has replied as well.

    “Little substance that differs from what I wrote. Silly things like whether a clash should be called “mutual” when one side is to blame. It does not matter what you call it.”

    4) So obsessed with local/Jathi/Birth based identify.

    Local identity is not going to help when national identity is weak. It will only divide people further. But if national identity is established in people’s mind, if we strengthen the local identify, then it will empower a human. So the sequence is National Identity and then the jaathi.

    You are a genius. Accepted. But you have a missing link within. You need to introspect on that. Without a live guru, this will not happen in you. This incompleteness will remain. It will be missing always.

    • vyas says:

      Swami – I partly agree with you about Senthil. It’s nothing but a reflection of his obsession with the past. He has a prejudiced mindset which he is not going to change and he’ll continue to evaluate everyone based on that. While I have no qualms with that, I personally think it will not lead to a healthy discussion.

    • Surya says:

      /*** Local identity is not going to help when national identity is weak. It will only divide people further. But if national identity is established in people’s mind, if we strengthen the local identify, then it will empower a human. So the sequence is National Identity and then the jaathi. ***/

      This is a comment I agree to. Before the beginning of Hindutva literature all the history that was written was to weaken the national identity. (I do not want a reply that the concept of nation itself needs to be reviewed.. particularly at time when Marxists are reviewed the concepts of family and religion itself.. It will only weaken my stand against Marxists). Let the secularists, and marxists get out, and let the nationalists stabilize the “nation-state”, built on European adharmic ideas for a few decades. Let this nation state, built on foreign constitution, first of all have the competence to produce top quality defence weapons and strategies. After that we can talk of ethnicity, jati etc. A social thinker provides solutions to present-problems at hand.

      • senthil says:

        @surya,

        1. the marxists and hindutva literature had little impact on ordinary people. otherwise, marxists would have succeeded long back, given their 50 years of intellectual monopoly.. Most people in our society are NOT book readers.. and that’s our biggest strength.. :)

        2. /** Let the secularists, and marxists get out, and let the nationalists stabilize the “nation-state”, built on European adharmic ideas for a few decades. Let this nation state, built on foreign constitution, first of all have the competence to produce top quality defence weapons and strategies. After that we can talk of ethnicity, jati etc. A social thinker provides solutions to present-problems at hand.
        **/

        Why cant they happen in parallel? Let the urban india produce defence weapons and strategies, while let the traditional india live in their own way? They could source man power from trad. india for their requirements, without destroying the society..

        this article by Krishna Arjun explains this concept..
        Dharmanomics – http://vijayvaani.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?aid=2793

    • senthil says:

      /* when you say “Subramanya swamis wrong understanding on muslim identity”, its just -ve marketing to him. **/
      My contention is Swamy is totally wrong in his discourse of muslim identity and DNA hypothesis.. my objective was to oppose his views and NOT to market him.. right? a layman reader views swamy’s lecture (which i always link in my article) and also reads mine and develops a perspective of his own.. we cannot say that he forms opinion only based on article..
      I feel, my job is to be the opposition.. is it wrong?

      /** 2) I have never seen statements from you like “i understand your perspective, but dont you think this is also a possibility (and then you present your view)?”. Your approach will be “Person X is wrong and absurd in point ABCD (ex : Jaathi or graama)”
      **/

      I understand your point :) ( be happy, atleast i had said it now :) ).. you are asking for a dipomatic way of writing rather than outright opposition .. i agree..

      /** You focus and debate a lot with the choice of words others used rather than trying to understand the intension of what the other tries to convey. I have felt this a lot. This is exactly what Rajiv has replied as well.
      **/

      Choice of words is more important.. (arent you requesting me the same in ur comment?) .. there is lot of diff b/w “three indias mutually at war with each other” and “Sensex India colonises and exploits other two india”..
      When a persons comes and attacks me, i am the victim here.. if you reduce this incident to mutual fight and say “Dont fight with each other” , how will i feel?

      If Rajeev Malhotra ignores my view point just because i oppose him, then most of his articles heavily criticise so many people.. how can he expect others to seriously take his article?

      /** So obsessed with local/Jathi/Birth based identify. **/

      There the problem lies with you and Vyas.. you form opinion about me, and then start evaluating based on this.. When there is continous assault on jathi, what do you expect me to do? and when there is so much aversion to anything birth based, what do you expect me to do?

      /** Local identity is not going to help when national identity is weak. It will only divide people further. But if national identity is established in people’s mind, if we strengthen the local identify, then it will empower a human. So the sequence is National Identity and then the jaathi.
      **/

      If I dont accept your view point, the you will say “I am one sided” :) ..

      This identity obsession and prioritisation itself is wrong.. when the national identity destroys my local identity, i have every right to oppose this national identity.. also the national identity takes priority only when in foreign countries.. (and it automatically happens).. within our country, local identity will take priority.. that’s natural.. that doesnt mean, national identity is ignored..

      You are NOT willing to accept this pragmatism..

      • Zed says:

        Senthil, if Subramanyam swamy is wrong, just say so. No point in holding back punches.
        In this particular issue, I feel you have a better fitting theory than him.
        lf he is wrong, he is wrong…just say so. You don’t have to be polite or sorry about that.

  6. Surya says:

    Initially Rajiv Malhotra never talked on Jaatis. Senthil, I think its by your influence Rajiv Malhotra also talks of Jatis. Is this statement atleast partially true ?

    • senthil says:

      @surya,

      I could not say.. Rajeev said that he had worked in kanyakumari, during tsunami relief works, and there he had observed the dynamics of jathi.. probably he might have developed his perspective from that..

  7. Surya says:

    Here is something that Modi has done which secularists have not done. I want to add one more India – Hindutva India (apart from the 4 other Indias discussed – Sensex, Colonial, Bharat and Maoist). This is an example of Hindutva India supporting Bharat. Will Modi gain acceptance of his Hindutva identity ? Will Bharat support Hindutva in return or continue to support the Colonial & Sensex India (would have clubbed this 2 Indias as Secular India) ? I think time will tell in 2014 elections …

    http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/tuhinasinha/2850/64650/modis-micro-initiatives-for-the-farm-sector-are-quite-an-eye-opener.html

    • senthil says:

      @surya,

      Here Hindutva is largely Capitalistic and NOT supportive of traditional bharath.. There is an dangerous unrestricted zeal for westernising / institutionalising everything, which ultimately destroys the traditional practices which people followed for years..

      Also the goals of all modi’s activities are in exploitation of resources.. Just look at every activity of his.. Maximising profits, maximising production, etc.. Money had been the sole criteria.. this is NOT the right model..

      For eg, by approving BT-Cotton, the diverse varieties of cotton, which was adapted to each region, has been out of cultivation..

      There has been rampant mixing of indigenous cows, with foreign breeds.. All Cow breeds with low milk-yield are disposed off, officially.. Even approved desi breeds are breed based on narrowed factors..

      So we should not be excited just at mere numbers.. we need to look at long term sustainability, and impact of the changes in the society..

      • If you have 130 crore population and soon estimated to overcome China, there is no alternative to maximize production and profits.. Atleast in Gujarat, it happens in all sectors like Agri, Manufacturing, services etc. More important is that it provides jobs. Contrast to the jobless growth witnessed in the last decade under UPA.

        What you are suggesting is to put the new wine in old bottle, which simply will not work. People are more aspirational. Even in my native village, youth are aspiring to be engineers, doctors and other white collar professions. The pragmatic way is to set the policies that will enhance employment coupled with transparent governance which Modi is doing. If you ask the educated youth to go back to the farms and do dairy or agriculture, they are not going to accept that..

      • senthil says:

        /** If you have 130 crore population and soon estimated to overcome China, there is no alternative to maximize production and profits..
        **/

        THis is population blackmail propoganda.. 130 crore people doesnt live in your house.. right? they are distributed across india, and can produce their own food.. that is what happening today..70% population produce their own food and feed the urban population.. pls dont take the burden upon yourself..

        The issue here is about exploitation of resources, and collapse of traditional society.. Why should Hindutva speak about sanathana dharma, if its all about production and consumption?

        /** People are more aspirational. Even in my native village, youth are aspiring to be engineers, doctors and other white collar professions
        **/
        this is the problem.. the white collar professions are possible only through corporate companies.. and corporate companies survive through exploitation of society.. otherwise they wont be abe to pay such exhorbitant salary to the engineers .. Look at the very model you are promoting..

        /** If you ask the educated youth to go back to the farms and do dairy or agriculture, they are not going to accept that..
        **/
        Which means, education that you provide is alienating youths from their roots.. you are transforming a traditional enterprenuerial society in to western type capitalistic society..

      • Surya says:

        /*** Also the goals of all modi’s activities are in exploitation of resources.. Just look at every activity of his.. Maximising profits, maximising production, etc.. Money had been the sole criteria.. this is NOT the right model..***/
        I am not sure of this, in fact i feel that he has been the first person to utlise resources properly. Eg. Solar plant

        /*** For eg, by approving BT-Cotton, the diverse varieties of cotton, which was adapted to each region, has been out of cultivation.. There has been rampant mixing of indigenous cows, with foreign breeds.. All Cow breeds with low milk-yield are disposed off, officially.. Even approved desi breeds are breed based on narrowed factors.. **/
        I want more info on this. Could you please provide reference links ?

  8. http://www.chhattisgarh.nic.in/mou/mou.htm

    These are MOUs signed more than 10 years back. Are these implemented? Even if we take that these are the causes for Maoism, what explains their existence since 1960s? The hardcore leftists in their rank surely has built up a network spanning decades and are working efficiently now. Just as terrorist organizations do fishing of people based on some past grievances, these Maoists recruit tribals promising them a fight, but in the end it is the tribals who are affected more. It happens everywhere. LTTE did it to the Tamils in Lanka too.

    • senthil says:

      /** These are MOUs signed more than 10 years back. Are these implemented? **/

      Why should there be an MoU at all? What about POSCO implementation which was called off after stiff resistance from tribals?

      /** Even if we take that these are the causes for Maoism, what explains their existence since 1960s? **/

      The exploitation started right from 1960s.. when bastar tribals protested against it, they were brutally shot down.. read this history..
      http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/a-king-mulls-over-two-strategies/article4651880.ece

      /** Just as terrorist organizations do fishing of people based on some past grievances, these Maoists recruit tribals promising them a fight, but in the end it is the tribals who are affected more.
      **/

      Are police angels? They are also also terrorists.. King Pravir Chandra Bhanj Deo was shot down by police during 1960s.. is that not terrorism?

      why are you supporting this colonial state, which was controlled by Corporates?

      • When the state needs to generate money and employment, they need industries to invest there. You can’t paint every MOU as exploitation. If we give in to every protest on the basis of opposition from the locals already existing there, almost no industry or development projects would have come up. Tata Steel has managed to pacify the protesters and increased the compensation and involved in community development in the same Orissa. Besides, Orissa’s unemployment rate is more than 8% which is higher than national average. You can’t afford to keep industries away and yet provide good employment opportunities.

  9. Surya says:

    @Senthil

    1. False understanding. The intellectuals have tremendous impact – their impact is long term. In Iran there are not much sane Islamic intellectuals, thats why Islam is dying there, which will have a cascading effect. The Marxists tried their best to take down their country, the Nationalists were never weak, they became organzied because of Hindutva. Nehru was never accepted as the prophetic leader in Congress. The entire congress was anti-Marxist till the congress split. After Indira Gandhi came out, and called her Marxist version – THE CONGRESS, things started to change. She imposed emergency, but the Nationalist intellectuals fought back. On the physical level intellectuals were backed by men with attitude of Service. So you had the JP Movement. All this Nitish Kumar, Sushil Kumar Modi you see are all products of JP Movement. After Rajiv Gandhi became PM, and the Shah Bano case. Now Hindu Nationalists started gaining prominenece (They earlier had Golwalkar, Syama Prasad Mukharjee, Deen Dayal upadhyay but leftist media and nationalist leader never gave them prominenece). The non-Hindu nationalists being unorganized died down with time. Another logic of their death, was their dislike towards RSS. In the sceintific fied the electricity that you have at home, and internet that you are using now are all because of intellectuals. In the issue of writing history and percieving the past, it is again the intellectuals who have the say. Thats the reason why you are writing this blog (I guess).

    2. For that to occur in parallel there has to be a mutual trust and understanding between the Hindoos and the Hinuds. The Hindoos need not adapt Hindutva, atleast they should vote for it. It is in the benifit of the Hindus for Hindoos to follow their culture as long as they do not opresss others. It is in the Hindu interests that village administration be restored.
    In the link you gave, it acknowledges Gujarat for achieveing this, yet you are skeptical on Namo and Hindutva . On the same breath you are optimistic on PMK, just for its stand on intercaste marriage and anti-Dravidianism.
    Anyways the Hindoos are not interested in high level politics, so they should abstain voting to Congress, Communists, Secular parties and the DKs. Once the Hindus are politcally secure, decentralization would occur. Most of the sane intellectuals favor decentralization including Jayprakash Narayan (Lok Satta).

    • Optimistic on PMK!! The party which engineers caste enmity for its own benefits? That’s disgusting. You should just see the guys speak in TV on how their caste people should treat others and be always aware of their caste while learning, doing business etc. Disgusting rogues. If that’s what the author prescribes for the whole of India, I see no point in engaging him..

      • Surya says:

        @indian_first
        Let Senthil reply.. My comments were based on only a small conversation I had previously.

      • senthil says:

        PMK does not promote caste enmity.. i am regular viewer of makkal TV, and had seen the programme of the Vanniyar Chitrai Festival organised by them.. the tone of the speech is very harsh, but What they asked in that function is perfectly valid.. In the name of Dravidian movement, only other state persons who dont have any cultural connnectivity to tamil people ruled for all these days..

        The Love Jihad organised by Dalit organisations was opposed by PMK publicly, which earned them support of all other affected jathis.. Even Tamil Brahmin association offered their support.. PMK’s election manifesto, was very much swadheshi, and had far thinking.. For eg, in last election manifesto, they made a public call for protecting palmyrah (karpaga virutcham) trees across tamilnadu.. Hindutva capitalists like you will laugh at this proposal.. It is people who live in villages understand its significance..

        It is the main stream political parties which had always instigated caste clashes across tamilnadu.. First the congress under kamarajar started pitting kallar against pallars.. Then Thirumavalavan was used by many political parties to instigate dalits against other castes.. ADMK’s vote base is Mukkulathor community, and every year, they instigate caste conflict to revive the enmity b/w pallars and kallars.. both DMK and ADMK benefitted out of it.. kallars voted for ADMK, and Pallars for DMK…

        Arent these parties rogues? When Jayalalitha ordered her party women to behave obscenely to subramanya swamy in airport, arent they appear rogues?

        In my view, PMK is far far better than all other parties..

  10. “130 crore people doesnt live in your house.. right? they are distributed across india, and can produce their own food. 70% population produce their own food and feed the urban population” where do you get this statistics from ? If true, this can be the biggest reason to scrap the UPA’s reckless FSB. The issue is not just food but about a whole lot of services like education, healthcare, transportation etc.

    “Why should Hindutva speak about sanathana dharma, if its all about production and consumption?”

    Dharma is a guiding principle for our personal lives and not an economic concept. Even before all the invaders came in, people in India were great entrepreneurs, trading with the whole world. Business was not derided nor is wealth. Deriding aspirations and wealth is in fact an abrahamic concept introduced into our society by the investors. You would have heard the term’Thirai kadal odiyum thiraviyam thedu’ in Tamil. No other country worships a God specifically meant for wealth (Lakshmi). Even Chanakya speaks of business efficiency in Arthasasthra.

    “The issue here is about exploitation of resources, and collapse of traditional society..”
    What you are calling as a collapse is a part of the evolutionary change in societies based on economy. Migrations have been happening for 1000s of years due to various reasons. The society always finds ways to adjust and persist with the values it cherish.

    “this is the problem.. the white collar professions are possible only through corporate companies.. and corporate companies survive through exploitation of society..”
    Not every corporate company is exploitative of the society. Your generalization only shows your prejudice against them.

    “otherwise they wont be abe to pay such exhorbitant salary to the engineers .. Look at the very model you are promoting..” Ha ha.. you must be knowing only few Engineers at the top level then.. There are thousands of Engineers doing low level jobs in the cities earning in 4 digits a month because of lack of jobs and quality skills..

    “education that you provide is alienating youths from their roots.. you are transforming a traditional enterprenuerial society in to western type capitalistic society..”
    Not at all. Education only provides you the basic skills to get a job or do a business. The change in attitude comes from the society itself. The parents of the youth in my native village themselves do not want their children to do what they have been doing. you will hear them say “At least our children should study and go to offices or become big businessman”. Entrepreneurship does not end with continuing your family business or a profession like farming.

    Your argument that the change should be resisted does not work in the reality. Earlier more than 50% people in the US were involved in farming. Now only 2% involve in farming and still produce the same food. The remaining people have moved on to do other jobs thereby increasing standard of living. The same will happen to India too, may be slowly. The same tribals who protest today may change their minds in the future when traditional occupations does not provide them enough opportunities.

    • swami says:

      @Indian First

      /*Earlier more than 50% people in the US were involved in farming. Now only 2% involve in farming and still produce the same food. */

      This is a dangerous statement. USA is not a bench mark in any of the aspects in life.
      I am not sure if the produce remained the same or not. But they managed to import food across the globe.

      /*The remaining people have moved on to do other jobs thereby increasing standard of living. The same will happen to India too, may be slowly*/

      So farming and farmer translates to sub standard living and other jobs like engineering, healthcare translates to “standard” living?

      • “This is a dangerous statement. USA is not a bench mark in any of the aspects in life.”
        I’m not saying they are a benchmark.. but the same thing happens everywhere.. As a country’s economy improves, more and more people will move out of agriculture into other areas due to increase in productivity and technology. Efficiency increases and so not many people are needed to do the same job.

        “I am not sure if the produce remained the same or not. But they managed to import food across the globe.”

        US food imports account for only 17% of total consumption and most of the imported is not produced in their country.

        “So farming and farmer translates to sub standard living and other jobs like engineering, healthcare translates to “standard” living?”
        Not all farmers have sub-stanard living compared to other jobs but plenty of them do. Reasons are plenty: small land holdings, government policies, lack of infrastructure to access markets etc..

        Do one thing: Go to the villages and offer them a choice: Continue farming and the same standard of living or give them jobs in the above sectors that you mention here. Let’s see what they choose..

      • swami says:

        /*Do one thing: Go to the villages and offer them a choice: Continue farming and the same standard of living or give them jobs in the above sectors that you mention here. Let’s see what they choose..
        */

        Exactly. They will choose other sectors because thats what is bringing more money to them. I have already told this point earlier in another blog of senthils. If governtment gives 50000Rs salary per month and asks a villages to continue farming and supports him in every way, only a fool will still want to stop farming and come out read pythogorous theorem and graduate in electrical engg and then become a software engg.

  11. “PMK does not promote caste enmity’ – Tell that to the people killed and whose houses were burnt in Dharmapuri..

    “the tone of the speech is very harsh, but What they asked in that function is perfectly valid..In the name of Dravidian movement, only other state persons who dont have any cultural connnectivity to tamil people ruled for all these days..”

    By that logic, Vanniyars should have a separate CM to rule some of west India, the Kongus should have a CM to rule the west TN, Christian CM to rule the south TN etc.. shall we have that? While Dravidian movement needs to be condemned, we don’t need caste morons setting the agenda as well..

    “The Love Jihad organised by Dalit organisations was opposed by PMK publicly, which earned them support of all other affected jathis..” A few instances of abusive marriages between Dalit-Non Dalit couples does not mean Love Jihad. It just shows the dark age mentality of ‘keeping Dalits in their place’ by the so called ‘progressives’ in various castes. If the same had happened between the upper castes and their daughters, these caste morons would have happily accepted it..

    “Hindutva capitalists like you will laugh at this proposal.. It is people who live in villages understand its significance..”
    Which Hindutva capitalist laughed at it ? It just shows your prejudice and narrow-mindedness..

    “It is the main stream political parties which had always instigated caste clashes across tamilnadu… Arent these parties rogues?”
    One set of morons does not justify another set of morons.. the fact is politicians have been using caste, language etc. to divide us and rule over us. People have fallen for their traps since independence. The need of the hour is to call their bluff and unite together as Tamilians, Indians etc. instead of fighting among ourselves.

    “In my view, PMK is far far better than all other parties..”
    The only thing acceptable from them is their anti-alcoholism stand.

    “when the national identity destroys my local identity, i have every right to oppose this national identity.. also the national identity takes priority only when in foreign countries.. ”
    This sums up your whole set of arguments.. It’s just short-sighted. Did you ever think of why the Islamic invaders and the British were able to capture power even though we had much higher resources than them ? It is exactly because of this attitude.. We did not put the national identity on priority even when under attack, we were rigid and jingoistic about local identities that we even went on to help the foreign powers to settle the scores with our local rivals. Except Chanakya, no one thought of the need to protect the national identity and its benefits.

    The result: The British pitted one king against the other, used our local social setup to forge strategic alliances and eventually destroyed our systems.. Your ideas seem to suggest exactly the same – the very ideas with which the political parties have been using to cheat the common man. The ideas that pits one neighbour against another, a friend against another, a society against another.. when we should have been friends helping one another, we see enemies in the society even in the next street waiting to settle the scores one day.. In no other country will you see such a divided society within a country..

    Finally, your ideas are exactly the ones that will lead to Breaking India. If you have not read the book with the same title by the author you are critiqueing in this blog, I would suggest you read it first..

  12. vyas says:

    //In my view, PMK is far far better than all other parties..//

    I second you on this point of view. While I have personal criticisms about the individual PMK leaders, overall I support their activities. It was PMK who first brought Love Jihad to the limelight and made it a big issue. If not for them, nobody would have known that such a thing was happening. They would have thought that it was an ordinary love affair. I’m very happy that TamilNadu is blessed with such caste parties. Take the case of Kerala. Love Jihad has been going on there for almost a decade and only recently they found it, but nothing has been done yet to resolve the issue. They have to totally depend on legal system to resolve it. But here in TamilNadu the people themselves join together to resolve it, which is great in my opinion considering impotency of our legal system on addressing such issues. I only wish this caste politics gets strengthened over time and also the young minds get enlightened about Jaathis and their tradition and stop opposing it in the future.

    • Surya says:

      I do not know much of PMK. But I have 2 questions:
      1. Why did PMK demolish AIIIMS. Why did they interfere with its autonomy?
      2. Why did they attack and burn Dalit houses in Dharmapuri ? Why violence ?

      • Hush!! Don’t ask such questions.. the author will brand you as a western capitalist. PMK is a political party like any other. If ADMK, DMK, etc cater to some castes, PMK is also casteist. They are also corrupt and stalinist. But the author supports them because they are casteist which is a good thing for the author.

      • Surya says:

        @indian_first
        I do not know the meaning of being casteist – can you please elaborate on it? PMK is different from Dravidian parties. This has to be accepted. The author is not fully illogical in my opinion – although there are several statements which I do not agree to you just like you.
        /** They are also corrupt and stalinist. **/
        Please provide certain incidents/links to justify this. I am not countering you, I am just saying I cannot quickly come to a conclusion.

      • Surya says:

        Any replies ?

      • senthil says:

        I dont know about AIIMS.. but i am certainly say that PMK is NOT involved in Dharmapuri incident.. it was spontaneous outburst, and NOT pre-planned as being claimed.. Only few houses were burnt, that too only backyard .. (NOT full house).. most of the houses are tiled roofs, and there was no huts..

        The district collector is a dalit and police officers posted in dharmapuri are mostly dalits.. the nayakkankottai, in which the incident took place was a marxist bastion.. so the media controlled by marxists, twisted this issue and unleashed their propoganda.. Pls note that none of the media ever showed the visuals of dharmapuri incident in detail..

        The whole incident is falsified, and its a day light loot by the dalit organisations, aided by marxists.. i can say because i spoke to the persons who visited the site speaking to the affected family..

        Urban people have no chance to know the real truth..

  13. “If governtment gives 50000Rs salary per month and asks a villages to continue farming and supports him in every way, only a fool will still want to stop farming and come out read pythogorous theorem and graduate in electrical engg and then become a software engg.”

    You have not lived in villages or never been to one in the last few years. The people there are longing for good education. They are more aspirational, use mobile phones, have a great passion for improving in their life. Their parents are even willing to spend as much money on their education. You are completely clueless and insulting to them if you say that 5000 Rs will make them continue to be in villages.. They’ll offer you probably more than that to get into the other sectors. Even illiterate parents dream of their children as big businessman or officers. The utopian casteist world dreamed in this blog and its fanclub will not have any takers in the real world..

    • senthil says:

      /** You have not lived in villages or never been to one in the last few years. The people there are longing for good education. They are more aspirational, use mobile phones, have a great passion for improving in their life.
      **/

      See.. people in villages were comfortable till 50 years before.. Every village had primary education till 1850s when britishers destroyed them.. people were entrepreneurial.. If they were longing to come out of village, there would not have been Numerous Protests across india against corporate rape of their village land..

      it is your urban indian government when destroyed villages, and pushed them to extreme poverty.. and by manipulating Currency you had created an economic condition where urban indians earn lot by serving foreign companies and earn unethical money by cheating.. IF that economic oppression & economic colonisation stops people will return to villages..

      The best example is gujarat, where revese migration has happened.. Pls stop spreading canards and lies and stop villainising villgaes..

      People want a stable life, with stable income and want to live close with their relations to participate in family festivals.. They dont live in utopian dreams as you are..

  14. “I do not know the meaning of being casteist – can you please elaborate on it?”
    Casteist means someone who always thinks of caste as a pre-condition for any discourse. It puts one community over another, creates enmity between people who should have been brothers and friends, asks for special benefits, hinders individual freedom owing to ‘greater good’ just like communism, creates artificial discrimination based on birth – which the person has no control of.

    On PMK’s corruption: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2110590/Anbumani-Ramadoss-faces-corruption-charge-Indore-College-affiliation.html

    http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/ramadoss-illegally-allowed-admission-in-medical-college-cbi/

  15. vyas says:

    //I do not know the meaning of being casteist – can you please elaborate on it? PMK is different from Dravidian parties. This has to be accepted. The author is not fully illogical in my opinion – although there are several statements which I do not agree to you just like you.//

    Surya – Indian First is uprooted in Western values and I’m not surprised he/she talking like that. Cateism is different from favoring caste. Casteism is a term invented by the West, to destroy castes.

    PMK is a caste oriented party, period. There is no questioning on that. One shouldn’t be comparing PMK to likes of DMK/ADMK. Those other parties are anti national entities. PMK is atleast different from that perspective. But when you speak of ethics in polity both are no different. Today PMK has a considerable vote bank which has somewhat upset DMK/ADMK. It has come to a point where no political party can form majority in TamilNadu. They have to depend on Jaathi parties to form government. The PMK also knows this and forms temporary coalition with these major parties for fulfilling it’s minor agendas during every election. A party like the PMK should have enough clarity to capitalize on this but it lacks that. The leadership of PMK is only emotional and lacks intellect. One thing for sure is if not for PMK the whole of south of TamilNadu would have been a victim of Love Jihad. Kerala is already a victim of that and currently there are plans to do the same in TamilNadu too. PMK is striving hard to demolish the same. The paid media is simply spreading false news about PMK to demean them. The only good thing in all this mess is that PMK has a strong base in TN which cannot be undermined and the major political parties very well know about this. When they reach the point of elections, they’ll go to any extent to collude with PMK.

    // Please provide certain incidents/links to justify this. I am not countering you, I am just saying I cannot quickly come to a conclusion.//

    It all depends on how you perceive a party’s image. If you see it purely from a political perspective, then PMK is no different from DMK/ADMK. But if you view them from an ideological perspective, they are pure caste oriented parties uprooted with Indian traditional values. They fight for the rights of their caste (Vanniars) who form a significant percentage of TamilNadu population. They are neither anti-Hindu nor anti-national like the DK groups. I ever haven’t heard them colliding with any of the alien forces or churches to fulfill their political agenda.

  16. “If they were longing to come out of village, there would not have been Numerous Protests across india against corporate rape of their village land..”
    These protests occur only in some parts and places where the policies are not transparent and there is no proper displacement. There have been willing land transfer from farmers to the companies in many parts of the country like TN, Karnataka, Gujarat, Maharashtra etc.

    “The best example is gujarat, where revese migration has happened..”
    Of course this is good. But if some people chose to stay back in the urban areas, it’s their wish and no on should force them. Your caste will not let them do that.

    “Pls stop spreading canards and lies and stop villainising villgaes..”
    How is saying that people in villages are as aspirational as the urban people spreading lies and canards ? There are lower castes near my house in the urban area who are able to live peacefully here than in their villages. They want their children to live equally with others here. Now that they have acquired wealth here and are trying to transform their homes in the villages using that, the caste chamchas (people like you and other who comment in this blog) are increasingly becoming jealous and try to cause trouble.

    So, there is nothing wrong with people who chose their way of living and the occupation as per their wish. It’s just that it is best left to them rather than quoting some text. Having a totalitarian society which prohibits people their choices is Stalinist.

  17. senthil says:

    Guys,

    As another proof on how sensex india rapes and loots the tribal bharath, pls see the latest news on POSCO land acquisition.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Land-acquisition-for-Posco-resumes-locals-allege-use-of-force/articleshow/20818861.cms

    • vyas says:

      Senthil – There is no need for anymore proofs. It’s out in the open that the present Govt is openly laying down policies to loot down villages. When the PM is openly urging the farmers to quit farming one can guess what they are up to. Unless the fundamentals are fixed, no change is going to happen whatsoever. Even the next Govt is going to repeat the same thing for sure. We need leaders with spine to bring in reforms in policies on such issues. Until that happens such things are not going to end. May the odisha villagers get enough strength to protest against the govt.

  18. Surya says:

    Here is a link below on PMK fighting for reservations for Muslims and Christians..
    http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/27/stories/2007082760150600.htm

    “Dr. Ramadoss said the PMK was the only party which advocated 100 per cent proportional reservation based on the population of the respective communities/religions at the national level. Muslims, Christians and the other oppressed communities should be given preferential participation in all economic development activities.”

  19. Surya says:

    I watched the interview the leader of the Vanniyar Sangham, guru which is present in youtube.
    The following are the points according to Guru
    1. Periyar is a hero of Tamil Nadu, and Ayya (read as Ramadoss) is the Next Periyar
    2. Vanniyars require 16% reservation for their community alone. All castes need representation propotional to their population
    3. HINDU women Should marry only after the age of 21, because at 18 they get lured by Dalits. On the contrary Christains and Muslims can decide whenever they want to marry their daughter. Presently Muslims can marry at the age of 15, and multiple women. THIS IS A PERFECT RECIPE FOR BREAKING INDIA, as mentioned by @indian_first
    4. Vanniyars alone have the competence to win an election on their own.

    More facts:
    PMK aligned with DMK in 2011 elections, now after the loss they come out of the aliance. Guru’s bitching on Karunanidhi has been after the break of alliance

    On AIIMS and Ramadoss (Ignorance cannot be a reason for supporting AIIMS)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIIMS,_New_Delhi#2006_controversy_over_AIIMS.27_autonomy

    The reason for the hate of Venugopal was because he was from a higher caste.

  20. Surya says:

    In the previous post, I failed to mention more. We all know that AIIIMS is an autonomous institution and Ramadoss sacked his director for petty reasons in 2006.
    Here is a background
    Just before 2006, Arjun Singh introduced OBC reservations in AIIMS. In collages like AIIIMS there was huge protest. PMKs love for reservation, and lack of thinking for merit, made our Ramadoss to hate AIIIMS director, for failing to ‘curb’ the protests. Result: Director sacked. And finally SC itself revoked the order.

    But the point on the merit of Venugopal is missed here. Here is the link that outlines his merit:
    http://www.timescrest.com/coverstory/the-godfather-4756

    Since then, during his stint in AIIMS, he carried out over 50, 000 open heart surgeries, over 12, 000 closed-heart surgeries and nearly 28 heart transplants. His dedication to his patients was unparalleled. Ask any patient and they will most likely say: “He would come and check on us even in the middle of the night. ” The doctor as a faculty member had a house allotted to him in the AIIMS campus, but for many years he lived in the hospital itself.
    He also was awarded Padma Bhushan in 1998.

    Here is how such a personality is treated in India. None of the Rajas would have treated such a person of this competence previously.

  21. Surya says:

    PMK and the Vanniyar love for Brahmins is just new. Here is a news :
    http://newindianexpress.com/states/tamil_nadu/article1389590.ece

    All these years, Ramadoss had positioned himself as a champion of the Dravidian cause conveniently lashing out at Brahmins.
    Even at press conferences, when someone posed an uncomfortable question, he would make barbed comments saying the journalist was a Brahmin and hence was raising such questions.


    The cause for the sudden love for Brahmins has been the split with DMK in 2011 after their election loss (NB: They aligned with DMK pre-election). They have realized that Brahmins can neither go for DMK nor AIADMK. They realized that Dalits are taking their women, so they want to consolidate their bank by getting the Brahmins to their side. So they are wooing them, not that they care about the culture.
    They are in search of power, lets put it flately, just like many other political parties. Thats why they want a separate North Tamil Nadu, so that Vanniyars can vote for them.

    BJP on the other hand has support from me and many other people not because the appeal to my caste. It is partially because they appeal to my religion but more to my nation and culture. Only this can bring about an attitude of service which can transform the world. To understand the concept of service, one must first get the spiritual background right. Otherwise, there is only going to be jaundiced notions like Kanchi Peetam has been encouraging Dubashi Brahmins, SV created Hinduism from freemason and ‘manipulating Vedanta’. The best one can go is to argue in favor of traditions which is neither intellectually nor spiritually satisfying. It will die down soon. I guess there is nothing more to be talked of.

    • senthil says:

      I agree with all your comments about PMK.. The days before 10 years were those of Dravidar Kalagam and liberalism.. so the entire political spectrum and intellectual space was against brahmins, and its natural PMK was also lost in that..

      Now, with renewed awareness about jathi, they decided to speak for their own jathi, and in turn support all other jathis to organise themselves.. That’s fair and straight forward.. isnt it?

      While Ramadass calls for reservation, i feel, that would move towards abolition of reservation itself.. because, the fundamental theme of reservation is about Upper Castes oppressing lower castes.. If all jathis demanded reservation for themselves, it will alter the course of the debate itself..

      In my view, ramadass’s proportional reservation is better than current divisive one .. what do you say? In my view, this proportional reservation should be limited to 60%, and remaining to be in general category..

  22. senthil says:

    and muslims cannot ask for reservation, because they already got pakistan..

    • Surya says:

      Reservation should be given only on caste basis not religious basis as you have pointed out. There will be Muslims and Christians who claim not to have castes, how do we deal with them? As one tribe ?
      I agree that Ramadoss proposal is much better than the previous proposals, it gives space to all castes. But I think Ramadoss was saying about implementing to the entire 100% not some only 60% of 100%. If it is complete 100% it is a stupid proposal.

      /*** Now, with renewed awareness about jathi, they decided to speak for their own jathi, and in turn support all other jathis to organise themselves.. That’s fair and straight forward.. isnt it? ***/

      I agree with this, my only question is PMK ready to openly agree that they have changed their path. It has to be clear and accepted by all cadres. And it has to apologize for the previous mischief’s, particularly AIIMS.

  23. swami says:

    Senthil,

    /*
    When Jayalalitha ordered her party women to behave obscenely to subramanya swamy in airport, arent they appear rogues?
    */
    I am not aware of this incident. Can you please elaborate?

    /*
    In the name of Dravidian movement, only other state persons who dont have any cultural connnectivity to tamil people ruled for all these days..*/
    Whom are you talking about? MGR?

  24. Surya says:

    Announcement

    My forthcoming keynote address at Univ. of Masachusetts, Dartmouth

    Topic:

    The Continuity and Unity of Hinduism: Challenging the Thesis That Vivekananda “Manufactured” A”Bourgeois Hinduism”

    Date: July 11, 2013
    Follow me on Twitter: @RajivMessage

    Click to download program

    My new book on an important (controversial) topic is almost ready for publication. I still have some gaps to fill and issues to resolve. The topic is very important because I am responding to a problem that most non-academics seem unaware of. Yet it is a critical problem than must be addressed. I have decided to present it publicly for the first time at the Vedanta Congress to be held next week.

    Abstract:

    There are two diametrically opposing views of Hinduism that are each widely held today. Most Hindu practitioners see it as a unified and coherent system of ideas and practices, with continuity from ancient times to today. The opposing view has emerged from the western academy and this has spread widely among Indian intellectuals and even many gurus; according to it, Hinduism as most Hindus practice it today is a product of Vivekananda’s fertile imagination and it did not exist before. It is an artificial unity that was constructed for political purposes, and it was built by appropriating Western religious and secular ideas. Underneath the mask, it is incoherent and contradictory. Naturally, anyone who espouses coherence and unity must be suspected of political mischief.

    The thesis that Hinduism is a recent “invention” by Vivekananda and followers is called the Neo-Hinduism thesis. It is not a trivial thesis; nor is it on the margins of the intellectual discourse. Most academics trained in recent years have learned this view and its influence has become widespread.

    My new book refutes this thesis point by point. The first half is an explanation of the thesis based on the scholars who advocate it. It discusses the main scholars who espouse it, and their arguments. The second part of the book is my response to this thesis.

    As a result of this exercise, I have clarified many ideas and expressed them in new ways. So it is not just a defense; it is also a modern interpretation of Hindu dharma in the process.

    It is open to the public. To get details on time/location, please download the Vedanta Congress program – click here

    Regards,

    Rajiv

  25. vyas says:

    //There will be Muslims and Christians who claim not to have castes, how do we deal with them? As one tribe ?//

    Muslims and Christians only claim not to have castes but they aren’t casteless. Just like our Atheists who claim to not believe in caste or religion, but they are indeed categorized into castes by our electoral system. If one grants reservation based on religion then Hindus also have the right to claim so. Adding to this there are several other religions which will do the same. That’s why the govt is playing the minority card. It’s a pity that only Christians and Muslims are considered as minorities in this country. What about the buddhists, Jains, saivites, vaishnavites and several other religions within Hinduism who can also claim themselves to be minorities? Just to avoid this, an artificial Hindu religion was created and challenged against Abrahamic religions. If you go strictly by the Supreme Court’s definition of a Hindu, even Muslims and Christians are a Hindu, since it’s only a Geographic identity.

  26. senthil says:

    Hi,

    See this news on who controls Tata.. the rothschild family controls tata corus..

    http://www.livemint.com/Money/CwRq6o0OEFoACetqnmUigM/NM-Rothschild-rides-into-India-on-a-Tata-SteelCorus-high.html

    and see this news link..

    http://www.dailypaul.com/94811/monsanto-the-rockefellers-and-the-rothschilds

    and this

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_amazin_080331_permit_you_3f___absolu.htm

    the above will give you an idea of who is controlling and manipulating the world..

    and for your info, the federal bank of america is controlled by the same jewish group.. Rothschild, rockfeller, jpmorgans, etc all are the coteries that control the world finance.. there may be even more which we dont know..

    the world is currently becoming aware of these secret groups.. its time we also know about them…

  27. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Dharmapuri-dalit-boy-who-married-Vanniyar-girl-found-dead-on-railway-tracks/articleshow/20913123.cms

    So, PMK’s casteist blood thirsty morons has ended up killing the boy.. Happy ‘Jathi veri’ casteists.. I’m sure the caste defenders will come up with some justification.. But you can’t deny that the entire violence and this killing is BECAUSE OF CASTE and THE BOY BEING A DALIT and nothing else… This is exactly what happens when society lives with divisiveness instead of friendship and brotherhood..

    • vyas says:

      Don’t come to stupid conclusions yet. It has not yet been proved to be a murder. Even if it is still one needs to prove that it was indeed committed by the PMK. The current propaganda is purely a media hype. It will go to any extent to use this opportunity to create hatred against Jaathi. Remember that jaathi is the only pending (and the most toughest) hurdle to destroy Hinduism in India. Unless it’s eradicated, mass conversion will be impossible. Hope people like you understand it.

      • Like the fact how you people twist the facts to suit your needs. Caste IS the reason for conversions. Not Hinduism. The Dalits and other lower castes are the prime targets for conversion and they would not have converted had they not faced discrimination and are not economically backward.

        The missionaries will not be able to ‘harvest the souls’ if Hindus had been united. Check out why Kerala and South TN has a huge Christian and Muslim population..

      • Whether it is done directly by PMK or not does not matter. The following ARE true:

        1. The riot started because a Dalit boy married a Vanniyar girl.
        2. The PMK, like any other political party, jumped in and equated it to ‘Love Jihad’ and exploited it for vote bank politics.
        3. Dalit parties joined the chorus and preserved their Vote banks.
        4. The innocent couple were demonized and the father died. Now, the boy also dies.
        5. The victim is not the society or the caste. THE VICTIM IS THE GIRL who now stands as a widow for no fault of her own. This is how ‘Collectivists’ have been punishing ‘Individuals’ for going against the ‘rules’. Your caste is just another moronic collectivist concept like communism that puts the Individuals into insufferable hurdles and murders the ‘deviants’. In the original varna system, nothing like this would have happened.

      • senthil says:

        /** 1. The riot started because a Dalit boy married a Vanniyar girl.
        2. The PMK, like any other political party, jumped in and equated it to ‘Love Jihad’ and exploited it for vote bank politics.
        3. Dalit parties joined the chorus and preserved their Vote banks.
        **/

        This is lie.. you are twisting the facts.

        1. The riot started bcoz the father committed suicide bcoz he was insulted by dalit gangs in the police station..
        2. PMK was not involved.. IT started supporting the affected family only at a later time.
        3. Dalit parties are the real culprits, who tried to extort money from girl’s father.. but they are projected as victims.. the police inspector is the culprit for conducting marriage to a minor boy..

        /** 5. The victim is not the society or the caste. THE VICTIM IS THE GIRL who now stands as a widow for no fault of her own.
        **/

        The culprit and the accused is the commnists,, D.K and the liberals who rapes the society..

    • senthil says:

      actuall, the entire issue is because of caste hating communists and liberalists.. it is their forcing of inter-caste marriage which is the root cause of the problem.. Today, all castes had publicly pronounced that they dont want inter-caste marriages and they want the freedom to live their own life undisturbed.. But people like you, are disturbing them and forcing them to mingle with other castes, and there erupts the issue..

      The boy belongs to parayar caste.. and this parayar caste men (goondas of thirumavalavan) who killed a boy from sakkiliar community (another dalit caste) for marrying their girl.. people like you will never know this, but shout like all-knowing..

      My question: If all castes dont want inter-caste marriage, why do you force them? This is like a man forcing a woman to sleep with him just because he is handsome..

      What you people (liberals, communists, marxists & other anti-social elements) are doing is naked rape of our traditional society..

      • “all castes had publicly pronounced that they dont want inter-caste marriages and they want the freedom to live their own life undisturbed..”
        Utter Bollocks Bullshit.. you can’t escape from the sins of caste.. If the caste has 10000 people, has there been an instance where every single 1 of them has told any such thing? It’s only the powerful within the caste who claim to speak for everyone who say such things.. You’ll never see the children of such people suffer like these 2 people because they are powerful. It’s always the weaker ones who suffer.

        “But people like you, are disturbing them and forcing them to mingle with other castes, and there erupts the issue..’
        Did someone force the boy and girl to fall in love ? So, you JUSTIFY THE KILLING because two adults from different caste ‘mingled’ ?

        So, the punishment given to the 2 people (its only 2 people among hundreds of people living in the caste, can’t you guys leave them alone ?) who ‘deviated’ from the wills of the ‘society’ is cold blooded murder ? And you justify that ? You ARE A CASTE MORON.. nothing else…

      • senthil says:

        /** Utter Bollocks Bullshit.. you can’t escape from the sins of caste.. **/

        Stupid statement.. Caste is a dharmic social setup, and most tolerant, and more nobler than your Class system of Urban system.. It is you who are the sinned people, and NOT the caste people ..

        the usual demonisation of communists morons wont work here

        /**
        If the caste has 10000 people, has there been an instance where every single 1 of them has told any such thing? It’s only the powerful within the caste who claim to speak for everyone who say such things.. You’ll never see the children of such people suffer like these 2 people because they are powerful. It’s always the weaker ones who suffer.
        **/

        You are certainly living in your own wonderland.. i am one of the ordinary persons in my community, and i know the pulse of the common people.. Everyone in the caste doesnt want to marry with other caste..
        The children suffer only because of the communists, and DK morons, who spoil their life by instigating them against their parents.through their poisonous propoganda.

        /**So, the punishment given to the 2 people (its only 2 people among hundreds of people living in the caste, can’t you guys leave them alone ?) who ‘deviated’ from the wills of the ‘society’ is cold blooded murder ? And you justify that ? You ARE A CASTE MORON.. nothing else…
        **/

        that’s what i am asking.. why dont you people leave the caste people to live their own life.. no one disturbed the girl or the boy.. it is the girl who could not live with him, and returned to her mother..

  28. “why dont you people leave the caste people to live their own life..”
    No one is stopping the casteists from living their lives based on caste. But stop f*king with others lives.. You have absolutely NO RIGHT to do anything against others, including your children if they opt for a different idea of life. You certainly can’t kill people because of their way of living does not conform to yours.. and leave the next generation from your crooked divisiveness..

    “the usual demonisation of communists morons wont work here”
    you ARE the communist asking for the forced collectivity on individuals who does not agree with you. Pot calling the kettle black ?

    • senthil says:

      /** No one is stopping the casteists from living their lives based on caste. But stop f*king with others lives..
      **/

      If no one is stopping casteists, then why the hell the communists, DK, liberal rascals call for destruction of caste? and you yourself had abused caste..

      • I abuse caste because it causes divisiveness and murders like these. I did not stop someone or kill someone for following caste. But the casteists discriminate and even kill people for not following the caste. Hence the problem and the need to abandon caste altogether.

      • senthil says:

        Earlier you told that no one stopped caste from living their life.. now you invented some reasons for justifying your abusing caste.. If caste can be abused for supposed discrimination, what should one do to your Urban System which had exploited and raped the entire rural india? Doesnt your police kill so many people on false encounter? Doesnt your politicians kill so many people based on enmity?

        Your urban system divides people in to higher class, middle class and lower class, and the first exploits the other two.. Is this not worst discrimination..

        In your urban system, the poor people were made to serve rich people for petty salaries.. is it not discrimination & exploitation..

        In your urban system, the nurses are paid a meagre salary, while the doctors reap enormous profits by looting people, as described in munnabhai MBBS.. is it not discrimination and crime?

        Can we dismantle all those urban centers because of above reasons?

  29. vyas says:

    //I abuse caste because it causes divisiveness and murders like these. I did not stop someone or kill someone for following caste. But the casteists discriminate and even kill people for not following the caste. Hence the problem and the need to abandon caste altogether.//

    You need to come out of your Utopian mindset. Unless you do so, you’ll never understand caste system. While caste system has problems which needs to be addressed, the majority of the problems are created by political entities. The very mindset of these people is to destroy caste system, which is what aggravating caste leaders. The solution to all these problems is just a simple change in the mindset and allow castes to groom.

  30. “The solution to all these problems is just a simple change in the mindset and allow castes to groom.”

    You need to come out of your caste wonderland. If you revive caste, it’s not going to come with all the issues, politics, power abuse etc. There is no way that in 2013, you are going to get a 100 AD society that is free from all these issues. The change in mindset cannot be achieved by a remote control too..

    • vyas says:

      I believe you never made any honest attempt to study the caste system. There is no point in arguing with people like you.

    • senthil says:

      Caste exist till now, and stop living in your alice’s dreamland of non-existing equality and brotherhood.. bharath @ 100AD was most peaceful, prosperous, dharmic than the india of 21st century, where backstabbing, destruction, wars, genocides, immorality, and all evils exist..

      Castes exists inspite of brutal assault and exploitation.. you would not live for single day, if your indian government stops exploiting the rural india..

  31. swami says:

    /*You have absolutely NO RIGHT to do anything against others, including your children if they opt for a different idea of life.*/

    This is the relationship that we can have in a secular world and thats why we need jaathi.

  32. swami says:

    /*I abuse caste because it causes divisiveness and murders like these. I did not stop someone or kill someone for following caste. But the casteists discriminate and even kill people for not following the caste. Hence the problem and the need to abandon caste altogether.*/

    The very fact that some one is even ready to kill for jaathi reasons is enough to prove that people still need it. So why are you urban elites and political idiots trying to remove jaathi from the society?

    • poovannan says:

      They kill only when it involves the women of their community and the same weapons stand as protection to the couple when a male from these communities marries a girl from outside his caste.Its purely against women and if the caste associations fight against the intercaste marriages of their men they will collapse within no time.Most of the leaders of these communities have wife/wives across communities and here we have people taking their anger against women marrying intercaste as support for caste system.

      The villagers have realised the value of caste just to get out of their caste based profession and demand a share in all jobs below the sun and the current networking is mainly to get their share in all jobs from postmans to district collectors

      • vyas says:

        It again shows your ignorance and your female chauvinistic attitude. Women are always easy targets in any society. Women targeting men are very negligible. In addition to this if a man marries a woman from another caste, the Jaathi’s patrilineal lineage is not affected since he is going to anyway transfer his Y chromosome to his child as long as the girl is not of the same gothra. But if the other case happens, the vamsa gets cut off completely then and there, since the girl will give birth to children who will have the identity of the other family. This will be the case even when the bride and bride groom marry from the same caste but still have no male child. In those days people were desperate for begetting a male child just for this reason. Your mentioning of caste leaders marrying several wives of other caste and all cannot be generalized. We are not bothered about the stupid caste leaders’ personal issues. We are only bothered about our jaathi heritage.

        Finally let me ask you something. What do you people exactly want? Throw off all our hereditary identities, customs, practices and Jaathis and assume the stupid Tamil language as an identity and live happily? Why are you so obsessed with demolishing caste? What are you going to achieve by doing so? What’s your bloody problem if we look for brides within the same caste?

      • senthil says:

        @poovannan

        Every jathi always protects their women, unlike you people who reduce them as Item dancers and bar girls..

    • senthil says:

      @swami,

      this honour killing is even done by these dalit jathis, which people like @poovannan will never like to discuss..

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – The question is not about if the Dalits too indulge in honor killing. Whoever does it is completely wrong and cannot be tolerated. While I do understand that some politically motivated Dalits target other caste women, that needs to be curbed, and the issue needs to be addressed at a different level. When more and more men and women are subject to English education in villages, it is quiet natural that they gain the idea of individualism and adding to this they mingle freely with boys outside in schools and colleges. How can you prevent love in such situations? Adding to this our bullshit films are showing love in every angle possible which highly influences these younger minds. I already hear atrocious stories about relationship between school girls and boys even in villages. Our ancestors have completely lost their ability to educate our younger generation on our traditional lifestyle. Tell me something very frankly. How many of your village folks have done this in the recent past? How many of you have really taught your kids about the benefits of marrying within the jaathi? Do you have a formal education system for that in your villages? In this internet age we can do wonders in preaching this knowledge to our next generation, but are we really doing it? For a teenage girl or a boy who meet each other it is very obvious that manas will dominate buddhi unless appropriate education is imbibed right from childhood.

        There is no point in pontificating about inter-caste marriages without creating the appropriate atmosphere to carry it out. How long can we force these brides to marry within the same caste despite their love with someone else? Unless we start a formal process to educate our next generation families (especially the ones with girl child) there is going to be absolutely no solution to this.

      • ganapathy says:

        Honour killings are practised maximum by tribal communities across the world and kidnap of women of other tribal groups too has been practised by most in the past.
        Honour killings by all groups doesnt add any legitimacy to it and women have started questioning the morals thrust on them leading to several changes and few men supporting them in their pursuit for equality and participation in all activities from hunting to leadership.
        This Y chromosome comedy by caste supporters is continuing unabated without any scientific proof and all studies till date has clearly established intermingling of castes and even races and there exist no pure genetic pool which has been maintained the same for the past few hundred years

      • senthil says:

        /** Senthil – The question is not about if the Dalits too indulge in honor killing. Whoever does it is completely wrong and cannot be tolerated.
        **/

        No one is justifying it here.. We have to stop honour killings by identifying the root cause and preventing it.. by preventing inter-jathi marriages and NOT by bastardising all jathis as communists and DK morons advocate..

        honour killings indicate that all jathis do not want to marry outside their jathi.. why should they be forced?

        So far, this caste destruction argument has been carried over under the pretext that upper castes suppress lower caste.. that argument has been busted today.. the dalits themselves proved that they too are NOT willing to marry with other jathis..

        /** Tell me something very frankly. How many of your village folks have done this in the recent past? How many of you have really taught your kids about the benefits of marrying within the jaathi?
        **/

        True.. the past generation is reponsible for all these degradations.. they adopted western elitist model, and did not teach their children about traditions or cultural values..

        as I have said earlier.. every aspect of publc institutions are designed to destroy the jathi setup.. today the schools and colleges promote only prostitution, flirting, living together, and all other immoral things.. Children of Many cultured families are spoilt by this environment..

        But there has been a renewed awareness among the younger generations.. i am the best example.. i studied in high class matric school, and till i completed my college, i do not know anything about caste or culture.. How did i make a U-Turn now? I can only attribute it to Ishwara and my kuladevata..

    • “The very fact that some one is even ready to kill for jaathi reasons is enough to prove that people still need it. So why are you urban elites and political idiots trying to remove jaathi from the society?”

      What a moronic logic is this ? There are people who steal and hurt the women in the family to drink alcohol. Does that mean promoting drinking is good or ‘necessary’ because there is a demand from people and they are desperate to do so ?

      Urban people do not need Jathi either. So, your case that urban people try to remove Jathi is ridiculous Caste is a major problem in rural areas and even results in killing innocent people. If that does not seem a reason enough to abolish this poison, I don’t know what does..

      Go to South Bangalore. You’ll find a lot of lower caste people from the same Dharmapuri district living there selling vegetables, fruits, flowers, grocery shops etc. They have moved there to live a peaceful life.They don’t want to go back and raise their children in a place where all these nonsense based on birth still exists.

      Talking about how good caste is etc. is all fine for your armchair proponents who are sitting in your house comfortably, look to some books on how caste was all good bla bla bla.. but the pain of such incidents will be felt only by those who are affected. Go and ask those people directly if they are willing to go back to the hell. They’ll tell the answer.

      • vyas says:

        //Urban people do not need Jathi either. So, your case that urban people try to remove Jathi is ridiculous Caste is a major problem in rural areas and even results in killing innocent people. If that does not seem a reason enough to abolish this poison, I don’t know what does.. //

        May be urban orphans do not need jathi. Urban people do need jaathi. They moved to cities because you morons destroyed their villages. Caste has been made to be a major problem. It has sustained for millenniums without any major issues. It is maniacs like you who want to destroy caste for political gains.

        //Go to South Bangalore. You’ll find a lot of lower caste people from the same Dharmapuri district living there selling vegetables, fruits, flowers, grocery shops etc. They have moved there to live a peaceful life.They don’t want to go back and raise their children in a place where all these nonsense based on birth still exists.//

        The villagers are not the real problem. It is the Dalit parties which create hatred among the villagers and destroying their harmony. I can show you tons of urbanites who want to go back to villages and some have already done so. What do you say for this?

        //Talking about how good caste is etc. is all fine for your armchair proponents who are sitting in your house comfortably, look to some books on how caste was all good bla bla bla.. but the pain of such incidents will be felt only by those who are affected. Go and ask those people directly if they are willing to go back to the hell. They’ll tell the answer.//

        That’s your stupid view point. Caste related issues are very very few and minor. It’s the media and the NGO’s which balloon the issue to destroy the caste system. First go and study what caste system is and then come back and argue. Nobody is saying caste system is as pure as cow milk. There has been degradation that happened over time which needs to be corrected but that doesn’t mean it needs to be destroyed. It’s akin to saying that the entire constitution should nullified just because an MLA is corrupt.

      • senthil says:

        /** What a moronic logic is this ? There are people who steal and hurt the women in the family to drink alcohol. Does that mean promoting drinking is good or ‘necessary’ because there is a demand from people and they are desperate to do so ?
        **/

        Moronic logic.. If a man drinks and beats women, will you kill that man? You need to close wine shops, and NOT destroy the family..

        Same way, the honor killings happen bcos of inter-caste marriage, forced upon by anti-social ideological forces.. it is these anti-social that should be destroyed and NOT jathis..

        /** Urban people do not need Jathi either. So, your case that urban people try to remove Jathi is ridiculous
        **/

        Urban people may NOT need jathi.. but they need economic slaves, and an exploitative government..

        /** Caste is a major problem in rural areas and even results in killing innocent people. **/

        If Urban People are so divine souls, then why the hell there exists so many police stations.. why the hell so many murder cases in your police stations ?

        On the other hand, the jathi based rural society do not have any police station.. because they are more cultured and self-regulated..

        /** Talking about how good caste is etc. is all fine for your armchair proponents who are sitting in your house comfortably, look to some books on how caste was all good bla bla bla.
        **/

        I am living my jathi based life.. it is urban people who live like guinea pigs, happily sacrificing themselves as corporate slaves.. they live only on perceived moral superiority which is achieved by demonising caste..

  33. swami says:

    /*The villagers have realised the value of caste just to get out of their caste based profession and demand a share in all jobs below the sun and the current networking is mainly to get their share in all jobs from postmans to district collectors*/

    Lets make all the villages into engineers. Poovannan will then stop blogging and look for food as there will be no one to provide food.

  34. “I can show you tons of urbanites who want to go back to villages and some have already done so. What do you say for this?”

    These will be people who have earned enough money to be not affected by caste discrimination much.. Show me some lower caste people who are making some decent living in urban areas who want to go back to the caste based society..

    “Caste related issues are very very few and minor. It’s the media and the NGO’s which balloon the issue to destroy the caste system.”
    Media and NGOs destroy religion.. not caste. specifically Hinduism. Some media actually propagate caste indirectly. And caste issues are not minor. It forms the fulcrum for every other issue like water, electricity, elections etc.

    “There has been degradation that happened over time which needs to be corrected but that doesn’t mean it needs to be destroyed. It’s akin to saying that the entire constitution should nullified just because an MLA is corrupt.”
    Birth based casteism is itself a degradation of the varna system. Misuing a system is one thing. But this system itself is a misuse of the original Varna system. Hence it needs to be removed. If parties keep changing the Constitution for their political benefits for 500 years, that will also become bad.

    • vyas says:

      //These will be people who have earned enough money to be not affected by caste discrimination much.. Show me some lower caste people who are making some decent living in urban areas who want to go back to the caste based society..//

      Discrimination is everywhere. In fact there is more discrimination in the cities based on money, status and education. These are all accepted by us and we don’t find any issues with it. When it comes to caste based discrimination you people cannot accept it. I don’t find any logic here.

      //Media and NGOs destroy religion.. not caste. specifically Hinduism. Some media actually propagate caste indirectly. And caste issues are not minor. It forms the fulcrum for every other issue like water, electricity, elections etc.//

      Are you by any chance living in Mars? NGO’s work day in and day out work to destroy castes in the name of social activism. It’s the one which keeps people closely knit together. It prevents govt to take control over villages in the name of policies.

      //Birth based casteism is itself a degradation of the varna system. Misuing a system is one thing. But this system itself is a misuse of the original Varna system. Hence it needs to be removed. If parties keep changing the Constitution for their political benefits for 500 years, that will also become bad.//

      Who said Varna is not birth based? Varna is indeed birth based. We’ve already discussed a lot about it in this forum. Read that first.

      What’s your problem with birth based caste identities? Our legal system allows father’s property to be given to son based on blood relationship. Unless a person decides otherwise all his properties will automatically go to his heirs. Do you have a problem with that? Will you fight against the law to give some third party access to one’s properties? Why do you then blame castes alone in this matter. Birth based identities are followed in order to have a continuity in lineage. It is this unbroken lineage using which we are able to trace back our roots to our progenitor rishis. Go and ask a European or an American the same question. They won’t be able to tell this. When genetics evolves further our practices will make even more sense.

      • ganapathy says:

        @senthil
        Unfortunately for caste supporters women in jobs/independent women are always the equivalent of devadasis or bar girls unlike others who consider them as eligible for all jobs
        http://m.indianexpress.com/news/uttarakhand-two-pilot-couples-carry-out-rescue-missions-on-mi17-cheetah-choppers/1133651/

        The streamlining of nursing profession has been placed along with discovery of pencillin and chloroform in the important milestones in evolution of health care which has saving millions of lives but our caste lovers who till recent past made it impossible for nurses to get married talk about respect for women.

        Kindly open your eyes and see the women who are pilots,plastic surgeons,administrators,leaders,nurses,teachers,village nurses,women self help group workers who have brought great changes to their families and not be focussed on bar dancers

      • vyas says:

        You stupids should stop focusing on profession and concentrate on dharma. The western idea of treating men and women equal is purely from a material perspective. For them there is no divinity and men and women are both laborers for the society. They see the humans only from a biological angle. Society should have a blend of material and spiritual affairs. By the so called equality of men an women they’ve in turn destroyed families. Now, everyone there looks only for material prosperity, which is why they badly need spiritual techniques like Yoga. Indians don’t need it since our lifestyle itself is Yogic. Our society has always had enormous respect for women. But the West in the name of freedom have removed respect and replaced it with rights. Who needs right without respect? Crooks like you will never understand this unless you study our tradition in depth.

      • senthil says:

        /** @senthil
        Unfortunately for caste supporters women in jobs/independent women are always the equivalent of devadasis or bar girls unlike others who consider them as eligible for all jobs
        **/

        The problem is that jathi people see women as relations – as wives, daughters, mothers, aunts, nieces etc.. The urban people see women as isolated, and as objects.. that’s the reason there was so much exploitation of women in your urban centers.. your urban mindset see women as machines to do this job or that job within the corporate setup..

        You boast of women as pilots, nurses etc.. do they have happy married life, or do they have any social base? It is known to everyone how much nurses are exploited and sexually abused.. this happens even in white collar jobs, where women are more prone to sexual exploitation because they have to abide by authority of higher officials..

        Whereas, jathi based occupation are commune oriented, where both husband and wife work together.. In maratha armies, the husban will fight the enemy, while his wife would assist him, like preparing bullets, etc..

        You urban people are imagining as though rural women are NEVER allowed to work.. i am questioning this stereotype..

        There were mid-wives in every village of traditional india.. there were devadasis, who had powerful rights over the temples.. It is your urban india, who persecuted these womens..

      • “n fact there is more discrimination in the cities based on money, status and education. These are all accepted by us and we don’t find any issues with it. When it comes to caste based discrimination you people cannot accept it.”

        None of money, status or education is based on birth. Today one can be poor and he can become a middle class after some years. This is not possible in caste. Once a lower caste is always a lower caste irrespective of what the person achieves in life. My father was discriminated in his village from childhood and it did not change even when he became a public servant after a lot of hard work. He never wanted us to face the same fate. We can see his pain whenever we visit there.

        “Who said Varna is not birth based? Varna is indeed birth based. We’ve already discussed a lot about it in this forum. Read that first.”
        We have discussed this enough. Even Rig veda has quotes which says about parents and children having different occupation which is not possible in caste world.

        “Our legal system allows father’s property to be given to son based on blood relationship. Unless a person decides otherwise all his properties will automatically go to his heirs. Do you have a problem with that? Will you fight against the law to give some third party access to one’s properties? Why do you then blame castes alone in this matter.”

        You are mixing up things. There is a huge difference with private property shared by the heirs and a society discriminating public property like water, education etc. based on caste. My grandmother had to travel 7 KMs to get water for drinking because the ones nearby belong to the upper castes and they will not allow lower castes there.

    • senthil says:

      /** These will be people who have earned enough money to be not affected by caste discrimination much.. Show me some lower caste people who are making some decent living in urban areas who want to go back to the caste based society..
      **/

      Stop repeating the same lies.. your had destroyed all the villages and how can people go back to destroyed villages?

      and what about laksh of slum dwellers in your urban areas?

  35. ganapathy says:

    @vyas @senthil There are 100 %chances of you both having the genes of chenghiz khan or ghazni and we hear lectures on purity of genes.kindly go through the various studies on genetics and how they have been unable to identify nonmixture or pure genetic pool even in communities which have nevr married or ventured outside a few Km in the past 400 years

    • swami says:

      @Ganapathy,

      Yes sir. science has really matured enough in the field of genetics. few superficial researches and analysis done in the last 10 years are enough to prove that the entire kula gotra of indians is false and all Indians are bastards wot no link with their ancestors.

      You need the name ganapathy but would be sir isac newton.

    • senthil says:

      /** @vyas @senthil There are 100 %chances of you both having the genes of chenghiz khan or ghazni a
      **/

      Only those who believe that their ancestors are bastards could think like this.. I dont have that belief.. hope you too dont have it..

      It might be true that chengiz khan wud have raped our women.. but such affected women had ended their life and did not beget any children of the rapists.. the Chitoor incident itself is an example..

      Pls stop thinking lowly of our past..

      Our civilization is highly decentralised and dispersed.. so when the news of invasion reaches, the people in big nagaras would disperse to remote villages, and return back once the invaders had left..

      • The casteist in you cannot think rationally. First, there are so many research that has proved that not many today are of ‘pure’ genetic heirs from people living 2000 years ago.

        “but such affected women had ended their life and did not beget any children of the rapists..”
        LoL!! Have you heard of Anglo-Indians or have you seen people with white skin in the midst of people with dark skin in the villages ? My great grandmother was one like that and it was told that her uncle from a previous generation also looked like that.

        The next talibanic logic here is that the victims of rape should commit suicide to preserve the ‘purity’ of race.. Go and live in a far away land to have this kind of society..

        “Pls stop thinking lowly of our past..”
        Again, cleverly you say all of us think lowly of our past when all we are saying is caste system is a digression and needs to be abolished. That doesn’t mean we think lowly of the past. When we say the genes and lineages are mixed, it DOES NOT mean we think low of the past. There is nothing wrong in the genes getting mixed. I will not become ‘impure’ by marrying someone from other caste or ethnic group.

  36. swami says:

    /*
    This Y chromosome comedy by caste supporters is continuing unabated without any scientific proof and all studies till date has clearly established intermingling of castes and even races and there exist no pure genetic pool which has been maintained the same for the past few hundred years */

    Now who is to place the benchmark that something is pure. DId gothra system ever mention the word pure? Nor did the Y chromosome comedians say gothra is followed for a “pure” DNA pool.

    Ganapathy influenced by jesuspathy? Using words and ideas like pure, white light nonsense..

    Infact, the pravaras in my views are rishis that would have intermingled with other jaathi/race to form a new leniage when the old becomes weak in a certain way. So there is no aim or objective to retain the “purity”.

    the idea is just traceability and not purity. We just need to trace our ancestry as much as we can and thats the pride and not this xstian pure nonsense.

    • “we just need to trace our ancestry as much as we can and thats the pride”
      You morons may approve killings and open discrimination because of ‘pride’. But common sense suggests that’s inhuman.

      Besides, you have no F ing idea of what the proponents of the Y chromosome theory say. They say that inbreeding will result in the damage to the Y chromosome in the long run and hence the gothras are needed to stop that. The ‘pride’ part is of your dumb imagination.

      • vyas says:

        //Besides, you have no F ing idea of what the proponents of the Y chromosome theory say. They say that inbreeding will result in the damage to the Y chromosome in the long run and hence the gothras are needed to stop that. The ‘pride’ part is of your dumb imagination//

        What’s your bloody problem in we taking pride of our tradition? You dumb a***s could decipher the benefits of gothra system only now, but our rishis were able to find that out tens of thousands of years ago without any access to modern technology. It is that tradition that we belong to with the unbroken lineage of our rishis.
        Even a nation with all brilliant people cannot sustain or prosper over a period of time. But a bunch of proud men can even build an entire nation. It is this cultural pride that’s predominantly missing in India today.

    • senthil says:

      @ganapathy,

      /** This Y chromosome comedy by caste supporters is continuing unabated without any scientific proof and all studies till date has clearly established intermingling of castes and even races and there exist no pure genetic pool which has been maintained the same for the past few hundred years
      **/

      Uprooted people will always think lowly of them.. the pure genes itself is a mis-nomer.. PURE in what sense? and PURE in which genes?

      Even 99% of Chimpanzees genes would be same as humans.. does that mean, humans and chimpanzees married each other?

      The jathi and race are about ethnicity.. people had lived in their ethnic homeland for thousands of years, and their physical and mental framework were developed based on that.. it is this ethnic purity that everyone wants to maintain..

      It is your modern science which had proved that Y-Chromosome is transmitted ONLY through males.. which means, the gotra system which had maintained this paternal lineage, is an advanced system of identifying paternal brothers, even thousand generations back..
      Where is the comedy? The westerners dont have this gothra system, and hence they end up marrying their brother and sister unknowingly.. why do you want to force our society to be like them?

      • “people had lived in their ethnic homeland for thousands of years, and their physical and mental framework were developed based on that.. it is this ethnic purity that everyone wants to maintain..”

        Migration has been as old as human civilization. When natural changes and calamities occur, people generally gravitate towards areas of economic and social development. If you live in Madurai, there is no guarantee that your forefather lived 2000 years ago also lived in Madurai. He could have been in Karnataka or Kanyakumari. Only the casteists want ethinc ‘purity’ when no such thing exists.. And they even go on to kill people to maintain this.

        “The westerners dont have this gothra system, and hence they end up marrying their brother and sister unknowingly.. why do you want to force our society to be like them?”

        You are a Tamilian? If so, you would have seen people marrying maternal uncles and nieces all the time. The gothra practiced in North and South India are completely different.

  37. swami says:

    /*This Y chromosome comedy by caste supporters is continuing unabated without any scientific proof*/

    Who the F is science to endorse what rishis has formulated? Ganapathy is now newtanopathy.

    Bits and pieces of science that too which cuts and discects things to understand its nature is BULL science. only use of that is gadgets like laptop and technologies like internet. other than that for an individual human being it has failed to teach life and how existance is. such a crude science is authorised to endorse rishis?

    • senthil says:

      @swami,

      They do not know that most of western science today is incomplete plagiarism of our dharmic civilization.. Rajeev Malhotra had exposed this in detail.. even today, scores of our ayurvedic texts are exploited by western corporates to locate organic components, and these urban ignorants, work for them, and eulogise this as modernity..

      they want endorsement from these plagiarizers..

      It seems, for the first time, they are facing this intellectual retaliation.. being comfortable for years in mere repetition of propoganda, they are unable to cope up with this intellectual challenge..

      So lets continue the debate and further expose their hollowness..

  38. swami says:

    @vyas @senthil There are 100 %chances of you both having the genes of chenghiz khan or ghazni

    Ganapathy sir, please prove it with your science before accusing sir.

  39. swami says:

    @ India First,

    /*What a moronic logic is this ? */

    Your idea of destroying jaathi is more moronic than what i have stated.

  40. vyas says:

    // This Y chromosome comedy by caste supporters is continuing unabated without any scientific proof and all studies till date has clearly established intermingling of castes and even races and there exist no pure genetic pool which has been maintained the same for the past few hundred years//

    Your stupid science is still immature. It keeps changing every 50/100 years. The shruthis (Vedas) are not like that. Whatever has been said was true in the past, is true now and will be true in future too. They are timeless truths. Modern science is only concurring with the Vedas. It never contradicts. Modern science has to mature for yet another 100 years in order to come to terms with the Vedas. Since our traditional education system is almost extinct and since people like us are victims of the English education system, we are forced to explain Vedic thoughts in modern terms. That too only to shut off crooks like you. Else we just don’t care about justifying our tradition. It is what it is and we need no seer from the West to teach us about our dharma.

    • senthil says:

      @vyas,

      Lets not get distracted.. we have to use their own logic here..

      Their modern science proved that Y-Chromosomes are transmitted only through fathers.. So if it is a comedy, it is their comedy and NOT ours.. so pls be calm..

    • You have cleverly digressed his point:

      “intermingling of castes and even races and there exist no pure genetic pool which has been maintained the same for the past few hundred years”

      While the systems before may have legitimate reasons, there is no guarantee that the systems are 100% in tact till now.. And using that as a factor for oppressing and killing people can never be justified..

      • senthil says:

        /** While the systems before may have legitimate reasons, there is no guarantee that the systems are 100% in tact till now.. And using that as a factor for oppressing and killing people can never be justified..
        **/

        Actually it is the urbanites who are oppressing the whole traditional bharath, in the name of castes.. and as i have pointed out, it is your urban india, which has highest number of murder cases.. the recent delhi episode on how brutally a girl is raped is another example of how urban people treat women..

        You people are making sermons here..

        The uprooted urban people can doubt their ancestory lineage.. but not the traditional bharath..

  41. “What’s your bloody problem in we taking pride of our tradition? ”

    Taking pride in tradition is different from using that pride to kill others and call it ‘honour’ killing.

    Besides, both you and ‘swami’ posting here are talking different things. You say Gothra is based on the Y-chromosome linkage but he says it’s giving him pride and hence need to follow it. There is no problem if you guys follow whatever needed for your pride. Just don’t force it on others. Other people’s lives can’t be fuel to your ‘pride’.

    “It is that tradition that we belong to with the unbroken lineage of our rishis.”
    Again, there is no guarantee that we STILL follow the gothra system after several foreign ethnic groups have mingled with ours. Even if the Y-Chromosome thing is true, it is of no relevance today because all the purity would have gone by now.

    • senthil says:

      /** Again, there is no guarantee that we STILL follow the gothra system after several foreign ethnic groups have mingled with ours. Even if the Y-Chromosome thing is true, it is of no relevance today because all the purity would have gone by now.
      **/

      Even devadasis, who are given the freedom to choose a mate, preferred to die rather than be raped.. The women of the ruling class was always protected.. any defiled women committed suicide, and they were NOT shameless people like the modern one..

      women were the carriers of a family’s progeny, and our forefathers were not idiots to allow an invader’s child to grow..

      the invaders like the sakas, huns, were driven out by our kings.. Even under muslim rule, there were different ethnic jathis, and they remained as another jathi.. They did not mingle with our people as you might imagine..

  42. ganapathy says:

    Y chromosome is responsible for determining the sex of the foetus and all males will have it.

    foetus who get the Y from fathers and X from mothers are born as males 46XY and those who get X from fathers and X from mothers are born as girls 46XX.the characteristics/physical features etc are more through X chromosomes than Y whose main role is determination of male sex.
    The comical interpretation of considering Y superior and better to X is reaching alarmingly funny levels and the remaining 46X in males account for most of the charcateristics/gunas/physical appearances/intelligence etc etc

    • vyas says:

      Stop your non-sense. When did we say Y is superior than X? In fact Y is inferior compared to X since Y degrades over time which X does not.

    • senthil says:

      the gothra system is patrilineal, and hence the Y-Chromosome is quoted as biological representation of brothers and sisters..
      In cross-cousin marriages, the X of the boy is always acquired from outside.. NOT from the father’s lineage..

      The functions of human genome is NOT fully decoded.. the characteristics are influenced by all 46 chromosomes.. But here, the defining factor is brotherly relations based on male-lineage.. It is a common sense, that all males in a particular gothra carries the same Y-Chromosome, and hence all are brothers..

      You are dragging superior/inferior angle here..

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – I think we should make one point clear here. People think that since we quote genetics for explaining gothras, all the properties of it applies to gothra system as well. This creates a lot of confusion where people go and fetch some docs from the web on this topic and want argue that the gothra system is not correct. We dare not to care for what modern science says. The filed of genetics is still immature. Science will eventually agree with Vedic thoughts one day, but for that it has to mature. The Y chromosome analogy was given just to give an idea about the gothra system. That’s all. Tomorrow if someone proves that the Y-chromosome factor to be false, gothra system will still hold true.

  43. ganapathy says:

    There is no difference medically in marrying a sisters daughter or brothers daughter and both comes under consangunious marriages.It was the habit in entire south to marry uncles/uncles daughters/sons while it was a taboo in north.The gothra or koottam of a girl getting converted to that of the husband is the most weirdest one can ever hear as she carries the powerful X of the family responsible for most characteristics

    • vyas says:

      You are again showing your stupidity. In villages, girls have the habit of marrying their uncle (mother’s brother) which is okay since the male will be of different gothra. Marrying brother’s daughter is not allowed since she is considered a sibling because of same gothra. I suggest you to stop your non-sensical arguments and try to argue with facts.

    • swami says:

      The focus is on the distinctive Y chromosome. So girl who doesn’t carry Y chromosome when moves amongst family is not an issue. virtually she becomes the other gothra.

    • senthil says:

      This Cross cousin marriage existed even during mahabharatha period.. krishna and arjuna were cross cousins, and arjuna married krishna’s sister..

      This difference in matrimony b/w north & south is acknowledged in bodhayana sutram..

      In patrilineal system, the brothers and sisters are always defined based on father’s line.. so the Y-Chromosome logic is quoted here..

  44. vyas says:

    //You are mixing up things. There is a huge difference with private property shared by the heirs and a society discriminating public property like water, education etc. based on caste. My grandmother had to travel 7 KMs to get water for drinking because the ones nearby belong to the upper castes and they will not allow lower castes there.//

    Your arguments are silly. In cities there are considerable number of slums. Will your community apartments allow these slum people to take water from their wells? Nobody questions about this but makes a big noise when the same is caste related. When it comes to water within your community, it’s private but when it comes to water in a well that’s in a community of a particular caste it’s public is it? Don’t you think the logic is stupid?

    //None of money, status or education is based on birth. Today one can be poor and he can become a middle class after some years. This is not possible in caste. Once a lower caste is always a lower caste irrespective of what the person achieves in life. My father was discriminated in his village from childhood and it did not change even when he became a public servant after a lot of hard work. He never wanted us to face the same fate. We can see his pain whenever we visit there.//

    First, go and find out who branded castes as lower, upper, middle etc. Then come and make your arguments. Can you point out one document from our scriptures which brands someone as belonging to lower caste?

    • Society does not function by scriptures man. I’m talking of the reality of what happens in our societies.. whether there is a backup in the scriptures is irrelevant. I’m from the so called ‘lower caste’ and the discrimination my family suffered earlier was not because of a scripture but because of the ills in the society. You can’t take the vedas and tell the upper caste that this is not the right way. They’ll laugh at you and continue the same oppression.

      • vyas says:

        //I’m from the so called ‘lower caste’ and the discrimination my family suffered earlier was not because of a scripture but because of the ills in the society. You can’t take the vedas and tell the upper caste that this is not the right way. They’ll laugh at you and continue the same oppression.//

        The core of all the problems is just this. The alien forces have made us to feel inferior about ourselves and our culture. Even I was like you a while ago and after a bit of gyaan I got a clear idea. I’m not sure if you are a Dalit. But if you are then you should immediately throw that identity off and call yourself a parayar or sakkiliar or whatever with pride. You people are the sons of Bharath Maatha too. I just don’t know why you people don’t understand the fact that all this is happening to divide us and completely dismantle us eventually.

        BTW why do you feel so inferior about your caste? And who said you belong to a lower caste? You just belong to a different caste. That’s all. There is no lower or upper. It was the stupid British who categorized us as upper, lower, middle etc. Hence forth pls don’t feel inferior about yourself or your community.

      • vyas says:

        //Society does not function by scriptures man//

        Then why did you point to the Rig Veda in your earlier post?

        //I’m from the so called ‘lower caste’ and the discrimination my family suffered earlier was not because of a scripture but because of the ills in the society. You can’t take the vedas and tell the upper caste that this is not the right way. They’ll laugh at you and continue the same oppression.//

        I don’t want to comment anything about your personal sufferings as it may turn up to be an endless argument. But I personally believe that these problems arise due to change in mindset. Just think for a moment why do Dalits themselves practice untouchability against another caste and then try to analyze your sufferings. I’m not saying people one should strictly practice untouchability. Also people are not mindless to do such things. They have a solid reason behind it and since our education system collapsed those reasons simply faded out. Once we get back to our roots, we’ll eventually get back to our lifestyle and even if untouchability exists we’ll simply not care. Our analysis should be always be top-down and not bottom-up. All these days we’ve been taught to see our society from bottom-up, which is why we are never able to come out of issue specific analysis mindset.

      • senthil says:

        Your oppression logic is flawed… tell me your jathi name and i will expose your lies..

    • “Will your community apartments allow these slum people to take water from their wells? Nobody questions about this but makes a big noise when the same is caste related.”

      The water sources in such apartments are private property for those living there because they maintain it. Not just slum people, even others are not allowed. Within the apartment, none is denied the water because of caste.

      A well in the village is a public property. The lower castes also pay the taxes for the village. But water is denied only to them but it’s allowed for others. Where’s the connection ? Don’t act as if you don;t know all these.

      • vyas says:

        //The water sources in such apartments are private property for those living there because they maintain it. Not just slum people, even others are not allowed. Within the apartment, none is denied the water because of caste.//

        This is where the root of the problem lies. Who determines what’s public and what’s private? Back in those days there was no public/private concept. Everything was based on community. The well you mentioned belonged to the so called upper caste and only they used it for their purpose. The other caste members had their own wells in their own location. There were no issues and people never quarreled. On your issues about your grandmother walking 7KM for fetching water, it’s not the fault of the upper castes. It’s the fault of the Govt which was incapable of setting up a well for them in their village.

        When the aliens came in they could not digest this lifestyle. They were never used to it since back in their country they had races based on just color but they never heard of anything called Jaathis until then. When they took control of us they wanted to centralize everything. This is where problem started. Everyone was forced to leave their traditional lifestyle and asked to mingle and share their space with every other caste which they never did in the past. Today, the DK which talks so nicely about equality and oneness for all is yelling at other state members who are stealing the local jobs in TamilNadu. Why can’t they be so open minded and let the other state members thrive here? This is you should understand the real motives of these guys. Also note that there was no identity called Tamilan. It was a recently created one. In fact it got it’s prominence only after the missionaries entered south India. Identity here in India was never based on linguistics. It was based on Kulam and Jaathi. All our sanga ilakkiyams and the poets talk proudly about their kulam only. The whole problem started only after the advent of linguistics.

        You should do a lot of research my friend. As I mentioned before first learn the basics of the caste system, it’s roots etc., and then come back and argue. Then we’ll have a healthy debate.

      • swami says:

        well vyas. You cannot expect more from these uprooted people who wanted to live their lives in reservation policies and minority previlages. They wanted to enjoy all those status.. Some people read bio technology and suddenly feel empowered that the entire genetics is their making.

        The only reason why i spend time in this blog space is because of utmost respect on senthil that there is one person who is honest enough to look into the indian past and support dharmic ideas. if it was a brahmin blog, i would not have even bothered to be here. When senthil criticizes, he does it with right intention irrespective of the jaathis. when he accuces brahmins of not doing vaidheeha, there is a point. It would provoke to genuinely look at these options.

        Not sure when things will prick these uprooted people.

      • senthil says:

        This water denied propoganda itself is the biggest lie..

        /** The water sources in such apartments are private property for those living there because they maintain it. Not just slum people, even others are not allowed.
        **/

        So you dont have issues when slum people were denied water, and it is NOT oppression for you.. the truth is that these apartments itself were built on lands belonging to the slum people..

        /** A well in the village is a public property. The lower castes also pay the taxes for the village **/

        First well in the village is NOT a public property.. It is a commune property.. every commune had their own wells..

        The lower jathis did not pay any tax.. So your argument does not make sense here..

      • /* The water sources in such apartments are private property */

        Wrong, water comes from the water table that is common for all. Just because apartment owners have money, they are able to exploit it more fully.

  45. vyas says:

    //You are a Tamilian? If so, you would have seen people marrying maternal uncles and nieces all the time. The gothra practiced in North and South India are completely different.//

    Marrying maternal uncles is absolutely fine since the girl and her uncle will be of different gothra. Remember that the girl belongs to her father’s gothra initially and then inherits her husband’s gothra after marriage. During marriage the girl will be of her father’s gothra and the boy will definitely be of different gothra. If not, the girl’s mother would not have married her father in the first place.

  46. swami says:

    /*The water sources in such apartments are private property for those living there because they maintain it. Not just slum people, even others are not allowed. Within the apartment, none is denied the water because of caste*/

    The water sources in such apartments are private property for those living there because they maintain it. – Exactly correct. Perfect. The water sources in a well in a particular region is also a private property.

    /*Within the apartment, none is denied the water because of caste*/
    Its just that in a region in past, only one jaathi people lived. So colloquialy we say the well is for XY jaathi. now all jaathis are in same apartment/region. So all use the water source present in the region.

    Just learn to connect the dots man.The thumbrule is “water is only for those living in that region” in both ancient times and also your modern times.

    • swami says:

      Infact it is only in your urban set up, we can steal water from other region by using bores.

    • vyas says:

      //Just learn to connect the dots man.The thumbrule is “water is only for those living in that region” in both ancient times and also your modern times.//

      Excellent swami. You have niche talent to express your thoughts crisp and clear in just a few words for which I take more than a paragraph :-)

    • You dumba*sses should go and see what happens in villages

      “The water sources in a well in a particular region is also a private property.”
      T

      • The lower castes ALSO pay the taxes for the maintenance of the public resources in the village but they are denied the resources. The upper castes DO NOT maintain the water bodies.. the village panchayats does. But the upper castes deny the resources even though the lower castes pay for it.

        “Its just that in a region in past, only one jaathi people lived. So colloquialy we say the well is for XY jaathi. now all jaathis are in same apartment/region. So all use the water source present in the region.”

        You speak as though there are 10 wells in a village where there are 10 castes. The point is everyone lives in the same area of around 1 KM. The well that is nearby so that it can be easily accesses is taken over by the upper castes for no reason and then threaten the lower castes to walk 7 KM for a ‘lower caste’ well which is reserved by the upper castes from 4 different villages. If you morons compare that to an apartment well, you guys are real bigots.. go check your mind..

  47. swami says:

    /*A well in the village is a public property. The lower castes also pay the taxes for the village. But water is denied only to them but it’s allowed for others. Where’s the connection ? Don’t act as if you don;t know all these.*/

    So when in the timeline the private property became public to “all”? Who made this change? Is it vedhas or the brahmanas whom you claim to have oppressed the so called lower casts?

    Well… something was my private. One fine morning someone decides its public and whole uprooted indians scream that there was oppression. For example, i have my house and only my friends and family come inside and others of course need not come. (i cannot say they should not come because we are in democrazy). One fine morning, the government claims that the house belongs to government and anyone in streets without a house can use my house. If i resist, they say that i am oppressing.the poor street people.. Excellent logic.

    If i show my house documentation as a proof that its mine, they say documentation is useless.

    • “So when in the timeline the private property became public to “all”? Who made this change?”

      The well was never a private property. Only the rich had the wells as private.

      “Is it vedhas or the brahmanas whom you claim to have oppressed the so called lower casts?”

      When the hell did I say anything about Vedas or Brahmanas. It;s again in your dumb imagination.. All I say is that the caste system is a digression from what the vedas and the Gita says. Hence it need to be abolished to stop this birth based discrimination.. I don’t care how it was so good etc 2000 years ago. We live in 2013 and need to solve the issues faced in 2013. If you have a time machine, free to use it and go back to that time. We don’t have that luxury.

      “One fine morning, the government claims that the house belongs to government and anyone in streets without a house can use my house. If i resist, they say that i am oppressing.the poor street people.. Excellent logic.”

      Your bigoted mind doesn’t comprehend the logic. You better go to villages for sometime and see the reality. The well is maintained by the village panchayat and everyone includng the lower castes pay the taxes. The well was supposed to be for everyone’s use. The upper castes did not construct the well nor did they maintain it with their money alone. But they use their clout and use the caste as an excuse to send people away to a ‘lower caste’ well located far away just like psychopaths.. May be you are also one to justify that.

      • vyas says:

        //The well was never a private property. Only the rich had the wells as private. //

        So all individual house owners in cities are rich which is why they have private wells is it? You must be a moron to say it. First define public and private and then discuss further. The very definition of public and private changed over the years which is the root of all the problems.

        //All I say is that the caste system is a digression from what the vedas and the Gita says//

        Don’t talk as if you’ve mastered the Vedas or Gita. In our society we don’t go by the books and hence don’t require sanction from Vedas or Gita for anything. We use those texts only as guidelines.

        //If you have a time machine, free to use it and go back to that time. We don’t have that luxury.//

        If I indeed had one, I wouldn’t be wasting my time discussing with stupids like you.

  48. “BTW why do you feel so inferior about your caste? And who said you belong to a lower caste? You just belong to a different caste. That’s all. There is no lower or upper. It was the stupid British who categorized us as upper, lower, middle etc. Hence forth pls don’t feel inferior about yourself or your community.”

    I am not superior or inferior about my caste like some others. People are made to feel inferior of their caste by others in the society. You can keep talking about nothing superior or inferior. But that is what is Precisely in people’s mind when they talk about caste. The morons who support honour killing are fine if the marriage is between an upper caste boy and a lower caste girl. They have a problem only when the girl is from an upper caste..

    “It was the stupid British who categorized us as upper, lower, middle etc.”
    I don’t care who categorized.. It STILL exists. That’s the issue.

    • swami says:

      /*I don’t care who categorized.. It STILL exists. That’s the issue.*/

      And you will blame the upper caste for it? nonsense. if you are not willing to look at how things changed, you do not have any rights to blame the so called upper casts.

      • I am blaming the people who discriminate others TODAY.. They are called upper castes and the reason given is their ‘birth’. A rogue upper castes person can openly discriminate a hard working lower caste person just because he is ‘born’ to an upper caste.. Whether the british made this or someone else made this, it is irrelevant.

    • senthil says:

      /** People are made to feel inferior of their caste by others in the society. You can keep talking about nothing superior or inferior.
      **/

      That is wrong… the higher and lower caste in jathi based society is based on one’s life style.. The higher caste has strict acharams to follow, whereas the lower caste have some leniency.. (But they too have their own acharam.. that’s why one dalit community does not mingle with other dalit community)..

      So the lower class automatically respected the higher caste..

      Whereas the britishers altered this in to authority based status.. and the urban morons always think from british perspective and abuse our traditional jathis..

      /** The morons who support honour killing are fine if the marriage is between an upper caste boy and a lower caste girl. They have a problem only when the girl is from an upper caste..
      **/

      This is wrong.. I spoke to my grandfather and he said that they will outcaste any male who marries from other jathis.. We dont accept even males who married outside..

      The issue is that it is your urban morons who had enslaved all the jathis and had corrupted it.. and you are accusing and abusing the victims..

  49. “It’s the fault of the Govt which was incapable of setting up a well for them in their village.”
    It’s the Govt which created and maintains the well. Not the casteists. The casteists use their power in the society and oppress others based on birth.

    • senthil says:

      /** It’s the Govt which created and maintains the well. Not the casteists. The casteists use their power in the society and oppress others based on birth.
      **/

      Wrong.. it is the grama panchayat, administered by ruling class who built wells and other infrastructures.. read dharampal’s “Panchayat Raj” book, which details it.. (www.samanvaya.com/dharampal)..

      After 1947, indian government did not build any single village.. They paralysed all existing villages and impoverised people..

      • The water bodies in these villages were created in the British Era and it was supposed to be meant for all. In fact, historically, the upper castes were the later settlers than the lower castes living there but still it ended in oppression of the usual suspects.. keep reading some books and live in a cuckoo land.. all the best..

  50. senthil says:

    @

    /** Your bigoted mind doesn’t comprehend the logic. You better go to villages for sometime and see the reality. The well is maintained by the village panchayat and everyone includng the lower castes pay the taxes. The well was supposed to be for everyone’s use. The upper castes did not construct the well nor did they maintain it with their money alone.
    **/

    It is you who dont understand the logic..

    It is the ruling jathis which created the village (NOT your government), and brought different jathis to their village.. so the village actually belongs to the ruling class..

    The ruling class always protect those jathis who are part of the commune.. this includes the SC communities too..

    The tax is paid by the farming community for maintaining the village.. because it is they who own majority of lands and in charge of running the panchayat.. the lower class did not pay any tax..

    Note: By panchayat, i meant traditional panchayat. NOT the dubious sarkari panchayat as it exists now..

  51. ganapathy says:

    Y chromosome is the sex determining chromosome existing only in males.Its role decides the sex of the foetus and attributing or making it the base of most characteristics has no merit.All males will have Y chromosome and females will not have it.There are 46 other chromosomes apart from X from mother which are responsible for most of the characteristics and they are same for both the girl and boy.The girl getting X from father has more characteristics of the father than the boy getting Y as role of Y in transmitting specific genetically transmitted diseases or characteristics are very negligible

    Gothra comedy has again started and there exist gothras only for brahmins. All other groups have family systems which vary from place to place and peculiar to certain areas unlike brahmins who across the country have same rishi gothras indicating their spread by migration.Most of the sudhra castes use shiv gothra or vishnu gothra now and any cursory glance on the matrimonial sites will reveal this truth.Most in those castes marry within the same gothra as almost all in the caste fall within the newly forced shiv or vishnu gothra on them
    Rajputs in north follow a different system and have no restrictions in marrying within the same kulam/vamsam .The habit of brahmins of rishi gothras is thrust on all and projected as existing across all hindus which is blatantly false

    • vyas says:

      You are proving you moronity again and again. When did we talk about characteristics transmitted through the genes? We were only discussing the lineage part. The question is which chromosome gets carried forward from one generation to the next unmodified. That’s undoubtedly the Y chromosome. Use some intelligence when debating.

    • senthil says:

      You seem to continue your idiocracy..

      I said that the Y-Gene is transmitted exactly to the son, and hence all males in a particular gothra have the exact chromosome.. hence it can be considered a bilogical lineage of a gothra.. You are evading this fundamental aspect..
      Our Gothra system is patrilineal, and centered around males.. hence Y-Chromosome is the main consideration..

      All other genes represent certain guna of the jathi.. hence it is imperative, that one has to marry within different gothra of same jathi, to maintain the collective guna.. The cross-cousin marriage is a balanced and assured way of maintaining this guna..

      /** Gothra comedy has again started and there exist gothras only for brahmins. **/

      For uprooted ignorant people everything is a comedy.. gothras is a generic term.. brahmins have lineage of saptha rishis and hence have limited gothras.. other jathis have their own rishi gothras..

      /** Most of the sudhra castes use shiv gothra or vishnu gothra now and any cursory glance on the matrimonial sites will reveal this truth.Most in those castes marry within the same gothra as almost all in the caste fall within the newly forced shiv or vishnu gothra on them
      **/

      Yet another ignorant rantings.. all shudras within varna system maintain the same gothra name of the kshatriyas lineage they belong to.. It is the Tribal Groups which do not have the gothra system, but they have their own system of kin-ship.. Since they dont have gothra names, they are given shiva gothram..

      Infact, this particular aspect is one of an important marker to identify people groups who belong to varnashrama and those who dont belong..

      So instead of abusing and hating our traditions, you better try to understand.. you will find meaning and purpose in it..

      Just because your assumed impurity, to say that we become bastards and bitches is something most idiotic..

      • poovannan says:

        Sudras doesnt have gothras and thats the reason shivaji was denied mantle and he did all tricks to get that and was able to get the gothra ceremony for his son but the brahmins took revenge by denying that for the following generations
        Can I have the gothras used by sudras please.There exist rishi gothras for brahmins across India and even in afghanistan or people who came as refugees from pakistan during partition and nothing can be more proof of brahmin migration than same gothras for them across the country
        There exists no bharadwaja or kashyapa or birugu gothra for nadars or vanniars or nairs or mudaliars or kapus or yadavas or gujjars or kurmis and it exists only for brahmins and few communities who desperately cling on to the claims of they being brahmins inspite of being not accepted
        The system of family tree followed by various tribal groups and sudras are peculiar to the language/region they live and have no similarity across any other caste group in other parts of the country

      • senthil says:

        /** Sudras doesnt have gothras and thats the reason shivaji was denied mantle and he did all tricks to get that and was able to get the gothra ceremony for his son but the brahmins took revenge by denying that for the following generations
        **/

        This issue has long been settled and you still propogate the same colonial lies.. Shivaji belongs to bhosle sub-sect, and they have a well defined gothra structure.. go and speak to a maratha person and you will know..

        http://the-royal-maratha-warriors.blogspot.in/2008/11/royal-maratha-warriors.html

        /** Can I have the gothras used by sudras please.There exist rishi gothras for brahmins across India and even in afghanistan or people who came as refugees from pakistan during partition and nothing can be more proof of brahmin migration than same gothras for them across the country
        **/

        gothras is a patrilineal system of commune structure.. brahmins have names of rishis as gothra name, because they have lineages of rishis.. other communities have different gothra names (either rishi or on other basis) and their own matrimonial kinships..

        Gothra is a generic term and NOT associated with any rishis..

        You people should come out of your ignorance..

  52. “This water denied propoganda itself is the biggest lie..”
    This is based on real life experiences of my own family. you casteists can dismiss as a lie and live in a cuckoo land.. so be it.. don’t expect any of the so called lower castes to support any of your whitewashing arguments..

    “The lower jathis did not pay any tax.. So your arguent does not make sense here..”
    May be in your cuckoo land again. The lower castes DO pay the taxes and THEY ARE ELIGIBLE for the public resources. The village panchayats maintain the water bodies of every one’s money but the lower castes are denied the resources..

    • senthil says:

      /** This is based on real life experiences of my own family. you casteists can dismiss as a lie and live in a cuckoo land
      **/

      In My real life Experience, this did not happen.. Every jathi in my village have their own water source, and they would approach the village head, and get whatever they want.

      So you cannot generalise your experience..

      /** May be in your cuckoo land again. The lower castes DO pay the taxes and THEY ARE ELIGIBLE for the public resources.
      **/
      Your colonial government had colonised the villages, and your lower castes pay taxes to the govt.. the upper caste is NOT responsible for that.. in traditional system, the lower castes are NOT taxed, and the higher caste provided them all facilities free..

      You cannot accuse the upper caste for the crime that your colonial indian govt did..

      • Why do you take all the discussion to the British era ? We are living in 2013 and need to discuss what happens now. Today, all the people pay the tax to the governments/panchayats. Hence they have the right to access the resources. You have no right to claim that the public resources are ONLY for you because it was maintained by some upper castes 500 years before.

        “in traditional system, the lower castes are NOT taxed, and the higher caste provided them all facilities free..”

        Oh, how nice!! like giving a well which is 7 KMs away ? Why would any sane person accept that except for fear ?

        “You cannot accuse the upper caste for the crime that your colonial indian govt did..”
        Again, we live in different time under a constitution. If you don’t want it, move to a separate place and declare it ‘constitution-free’. Don’t live in the same place and exploit others citing what your forefathers did 500 years before..

  53. “any defiled women committed suicide, and they were NOT shameless people like the modern one..”
    My My.. you REALLY ARE a Moron.. Look at the implications: It just shows how bigoted and barbaric your mind is: If a woman is raped by someone outside her caste or gothra, she SHOULD commit a suicide or else she is a SHAMELESS one.. WoW!! That’s a new low even for you. I guess you want the women in your family to do that if (heaven forbid) it happens to them ?

    This is the same F ing attitude that leads to killing people and call it ‘honour’. And again, the victims are the usual suspects: Women and lower castes, the powerless.. People with this attitude are fit only to live with cannibals..

    “women were the carriers of a family’s progeny, and our forefathers were not idiots to allow an invader’s child to grow”
    ‘Invaders’ as a term itself has different meanings. People meant many things when you say ‘invaders’. It’s not just the Mughals and British who were the invaders..

    “They did not mingle with our people as you might imagine..”
    Why should it be always the invaders who mingled ? There are studies showing lineages from South East Asia, India and even the middle east to have mingled. You never know if they were result of invasion or voluntary inter mingling. We have tales of Alexander building links with the Indian kings in the borders through Marriages. Akbar did too.. the imaginative ‘purity’ you guys think and dream on is a propaganda and nothing else..

    • senthil says:

      /** My My.. you REALLY ARE a Moron.. Look at the implications: It just shows how bigoted and barbaric your mind is: If a woman is raped by someone outside her caste or gothra, she SHOULD commit a suicide or else she is a SHAMELESS one.
      **/

      You shameless urban moron cannot understand the value system the traditional women had.. so dont talk about shame here..

      NOT just women.. even men in traditional society end their life upon insult or undergoing shame or undergoing defeat.. hadnt you read that any warrior who got hit in the back ends his life?? that is the height of cultured society we had.. and your bloody indian govt had reduced that culture to current barbaric one, where your urban barbarians insert iron rod in to women’s private parts as done in delhi rape (typical of barbaric west).

      /** Why should it be always the invaders who mingled ? There are studies showing lineages from South East Asia, India and even the middle east to have mingled. You never know if they were result of invasion or voluntary inter mingling. We have tales of Alexander building links with the Indian kings in the borders through Marriages
      **/

      Ofcourse, european societies always see history from their perspective, where the entire european history is invaded by anglo-saxon groups, mixing with local people.. and its no wonder uprooted colonial mental slaves like you always think from their perspective..

      For your info, the alexander myth is broken long back.. see the hollywood movie, where you will find alexander fatally wounder by the arrow of porus.. the alexander army pissed off just by the 100 strong elephant fleet of porus, and further terrorised just by the news that 6000 elephants of nandha dynasty were waiting for them..

  54. “Don’t talk as if you’ve mastered the Vedas or Gita. In our society we don’t go by the books and hence don’t require sanction from Vedas or Gita for anything. We use those texts only as guidelines.”

    Well, you will use the text when you need it like Manu Smrithi. But you’ll deny others which do not fall in your line of thinking.

    I had given so many examples of examples from our epics and literature how people from different varnas by birth had gone on to do something else. In fact our literature are a damning indictment of the rigid caste system you people advocate.. But that doesn’t suit your narrative. So, you want to dismiss them plainly saying we need not follow them.. Good.. shows your hypocrisy..

    • What is the %age of persons who switched varnas, compared to the local population? secondly, once they switched, their progeny continued with the new varn’s duties, especially who switched to being Kshatriyas.

  55. Let me ask the proponents of birth based casteism few pointed questions:

    1. Do you believe that your lineages still maintain the ‘purtity’ from the ancestors 2000 – 3000 years ago that you can trace back your Y chromosome thing to someone lived in 100 AD ?

    2. Do you people think that lower castes in India do not face any issues with caste TODAY in 2013 by the so called upper castes ?

    3. Why did the missionaries manage to convert many of the lower and the scheduled castes much higher than the other upper castes if there was no discrimination. What was (is) the incentive for conversion from the victim’s point of view?

    • vyas says:

      //1. Do you believe that your lineages still maintain the ‘purtity’ from the ancestors 2000 – 3000 years ago that you can trace back your Y chromosome thing to someone lived in 100 AD ?//

      It’s like asking someone “Do you really believe you were born to your parents?”. Each Jaathi maintains a lineage and no one needs to prove anything here. What’s your bloody problem if we want to maintain that lineage? Nobody is talking about purity here. You are again misleading the discussion. The question is maintaining lineage. If genetic research is conducted based on gothras, a lot of facts will come out.

      //2. Do you people think that lower castes in India do not face any issues with caste TODAY in 2013 by the so called upper castes ?//

      Most of the caste related problems are over-hyped and politicized. Your very perception of so called upper castes dominating the lower caste itself is blatantly wrong. Why are you morons not talking about caste suppression amongst the lower castes themselves? Till this very moment the Adi vasis practice untouchability against other sub-castes within their own community. What do you say for that? This is why I say the problems shouldn’t be seen from lower or upper point of view.

      //3. Why did the missionaries manage to convert many of the lower and the scheduled castes much higher than the other upper castes if there was no discrimination. What was (is) the incentive for conversion from the victim’s point of view?//

      You idiots will never understand the truth. The reason you quoted for conversion was propagated by the missionary to hide their blunders. The missionaries did the same blunder in other countries too where there were no castes. If you take Africa, they managed to convert people by creating rift between Hutus and Tutsis. This resulted in massive genocide over there. The so called lower and upper castes lived happily from time immemorial in this land but never mingled physically. The missionaries came here only to spread the word of the gospel. They succeeded in converting the whole crowd wherever they went. They miserably failed in India. In fact they are the ones who are behind the roots of all the caste related problems that we are facing today.

      Looks like you seem to keep arguing without having facts in hand. Have you ever made any sincere attempts to learn the pre-colonial history of India? Unless you do, you are never going to get the clear picture.

      • “Each Jaathi maintains a lineage and no one needs to prove anything here. What’s your bloody problem if we want to maintain that lineage?’

        I’m asking if you people think that the lineage is not broken at all and everyone is 100% ‘pure’ from thousands of years. If you cannot be sure that the lineage continues without any ‘impurity’ then what’s the fuss about mixing and mingling when it would have already happened before our generation ? I don’t have a problem if anyone wants to follow their caste or religion. But when you institutionalize caste and act as a moral police or a caste police for others in the society, the problem starts..

        “Most of the caste related problems are over-hyped and politicized. Your very perception of so called upper castes dominating the lower caste itself is blatantly wrong.”

        Of course, it will be wrong for people who are not affected. I guess you people are from the so called upper castes who have not faced discrimination and wants to maintain the status quo. Your previous generation might have benefited from it but you people are now facing competition from the resurging lower castes who have taken advantage of the free market economy and risen to your levels. There is an inherent jealousy among the upper castes when they see people like us who had been detained for years for no other reason than our birth. Hence blog like this which whitewashes the caste related problems citing some books written during the british era and before.

        “They miserably failed in India. In fact they are the ones who are behind the roots of all the caste related problems that we are facing today.”

        They may not have succeeded in India but they have managed to take roots in many parts. South TN, Kerala, Orissa and many other tribal areas. They did spend a lot of money on conversions, but the question still remains why they managed to convert mostly the SC/ST communities more than others ? Are those lower castes less loyal to their religion than the upper castes or they wanted to move out of the discrimination faced ? (It is a different issue whether they actually managed to move out of the discrimination after converting, which is a big NO)

      • vyas says:

        //I’m asking if you people think that the lineage is not broken at all and everyone is 100% ‘pure’ from thousands of years. If you cannot be sure that the lineage continues without any ‘impurity’ then what’s the fuss about mixing and mingling when it would have already happened before our generation ? I don’t have a problem if anyone wants to follow their caste or religion. But when you institutionalize caste and act as a moral police or a caste police for others in the society, the problem starts..//

        There is no question of purity. There is only the question of lineage which is unbroken because of Gothra. Even for the sake of argument if I agree with you it might have broken somewhere in the middle, you simply cannot generalize it. Still there are several ways to resurrect the same by creating new gothra chains. This is how new gothras were born besides the basic seven gothras. In order to disprove my claim it is people like you who have to take the burden of proof and prove it scientifically. That will only help us to enhance our chain in my opinion. You are talking rubbish when you say we are institutionalizing castes. If we had the mindset to institutionalize castes then we would have converted everyone to one caste. The very fact that we still see several castes and religions in India itself is a proof that both were never institutionalized.

        //Of course, it will be wrong for people who are not affected. I guess you people are from the so called upper castes who have not faced discrimination and wants to maintain the status quo. Your previous generation might have benefited from it but you people are now facing competition from the resurging lower castes who have taken advantage of the free market economy and risen to your levels. There is an inherent jealousy among the upper castes when they see people like us who had been detained for years for no other reason than our birth. Hence blog like this which whitewashes the caste related problems citing some books written during the british era and before.//

        Discrimination is a problem with mindset. Every society has some form of discrimination. You don’t have a problem when a supervisor in a company illtreats a subordinate, but if the same thing is done by an upper caste to a lower caste, you make a big mess out of it even if there were no caste related issues involved in it. In my humble opinion you people have been programmed to hate castes which is very clearly evident in your comments. If I go by that argument, then the upper castes are the most affected education vise in the recent years. In the name of reservation many of the upper castes were deprived of education. Still how many of them are protesting against reservation? The lower castes have been completely made emotional idiots by the political groups. They keep saying that you are lower lower lower and lower a thousand times and have literally killed your self confidence. You’ll never grow if you follow these political idiots. I can only pity you people for your ignorance. The people who are all pretending to be helping for your upliftment are just exploiting you. The whole country is doing politics around you. Tell me one political leader who has talked with pride about your own history? Or how many historians have taken genuine efforts to gather facts about your true history? They did nothing of that kind. All they are doing is keeping you separated and enjoying the fruits of it. They’ll never work for your upliftment. They will keep saying that you are downtrodden and will simply destroy your self confidence. I strongly advise that if you are Dalit and economically better, then you should be proud enough to groom your caste (even put that as a surname) and remove the Dalit identity completely. You should join hands together and give new life to your jaathis and your community members. Instead of doing it you idiots keep singing the same old song of suppression without reading even an inch of the true history of this nation. One must first learn to respect one’s parampara. If you think you are an individual and don’t belong to a community then there is no point in talking further to you.

        //They may not have succeeded in India but they have managed to take roots in many parts. South TN, Kerala, Orissa and many other tribal areas. They did spend a lot of money on conversions, but the question still remains why they managed to convert mostly the SC/ST communities more than others ? Are those lower castes less loyal to their religion than the upper castes or they wanted to move out of the discrimination faced ? (It is a different issue whether they actually managed to move out of the discrimination after converting, which is a big NO)//

        The parts of India where they succeeded significantly were all places where mass conversion was carried out brutally and through severe exploitation. You are wrong when you say only SC/ST were converted. Even the Brahmins were converted in large scale in Goa and Kerala. Both Christianity and Islam adopted horrific methods when converting people. It continues to this day. You keep talking about the discrimination bullshit. That’s because of your lack of understanding of our lifestyle. The caste feeling is so strong today that people don’t want to lose their caste identity even after conversion. This is why we still still hear the terms like Nadar Christians and Rowther Muslims etc. First we need to understand the basic mindset of the people. A majority of the people basically don’t want to mingle physically outside their community. This holds true even for Dalits. They want to live a private life. When you force them to mingle, all sorts of problems arise. This hold true for any community. Look how the muslims are reacting when a muslim girl runs away with a Hindu or a Christian boy. There are bad elements within the community too and nobody is denying that. But those should be resolved from within the boundaries of community itself. But the modern reformists are trying to destroy the community itself and trying to make every individuals which is a dangerous move and will eventually destroy humanity as a whole.

        Finally I want to ask you one thing. Why are you people so obsessed with birth based categorization? You can never become a Brahmin, atleast in this lifetime (assuming you are a non Brahmin) and Brahmin cannot become you. Where’s the problem here? Varna is not a profession which can be changed at will. It’s an identity which one acquires by birth. You cannot acquire my DNA patter and vice versa no matter what you do. Do you really care about this? Then why do you care for birth based categorization alone? Even in a framework which allows full freedom for everyone to become anything, you simply cannot be everything. You can only be something. For eg. there is no birth based discrimination in determining chief ministership in our country. Still how many people can become a CM? You can only be satisfied within yourself that you have an equal chance to become a CM but your wish will never be fulfilled.

    • vyas says:

      BTW what are the corporates doing today? They too are converting us in the name of modernization and morons like you are not bothered about that at all. In order to benefit their customers, they are going to the extent of changing our names in call centers. You a**h**s don’t have the guts to protest against that but come and talk here about so called upper caste oppression. Caste oppression if at all it exists can easily be resolved with appropriate education. And moreover these issues will never damage your identities. But corporate en-slavery will destroy your identities completely and will orphanate you. The sad part is you won’t even know that until it happens.

      • “In order to benefit their customers, they are going to the extent of changing our names in call centers.”

        Ha ha.. Does anyone bother about the name in call center ? this happens only in call centers which deals with voice based service. No one is changing their real names for this. The family or friends do not call someone as ‘David’ when the real name is ‘kumar’.

        “Caste oppression if at all it exists can easily be resolved with appropriate education. ”
        From this blog itself, it can be seen that educated people support caste more than others. So, Education is not going to stop anything. We need a strong system which condemns caste based oppression and gives equal rights to all. More than that, we need people who considers a fellow citizen as a friend or a brother instead of thinking him as his subordinate who can be discriminated because of his birth.

        “moreover these issues will never damage your identities.’

        I don’t need a ‘lower caste’ identity in the first place and will be very happy if that identity gets destroyed. I never had to go through the sort of discrimination that my father and grandfathers went through and my father used to say losing such identities is actually better than living with one. Today, I don’t even know the caste of my friends or colleagues and that’s how it should be. Good riddance of caste.

        “But corporate en-slavery will destroy your identities completely and will orphanate you.”
        What identity that I want to live with entirely depends on my wish. The caste morons are slowly losing their grip on other people’s identities and cannot bear that. Less than 5% people work in corporate companies. The bigger change is actually happening in the SME sector which provides the biggest employment in the country. The lower castes are finding out opportunities in this sector and have realized that their biggest chance for freedom from castes oppression is actually in the market economy where old rules do not apply.

        check this: http://m.indianexpress.com/news/capitalism-is-changing-caste-much-faster-than-any-human-being.-dalits-should-look-at-capitalism-as-a-crusader-against-caste/1127570/

        “Let me put this metaphorically. If market is a better equaliser than Marx, is the market a better equaliser than Mayawati?

        CBP: Most certainly. So far, we held a belief that only an individual can liberate society. Now we see that there is an economic process, that capitalism is changing caste much faster than any human being. Therefore, in capitalism versus caste, there is a battle going on and Dalits should look at capitalism as a crusader against caste.

        …As a force multiplier.

        CBP: Yes. Dalits don’t succeed in villages. Dalits don’t succeed in traditional trades where you have a wide gadda and a white pillow. That’s why we say bring in FDI in retail and destroy this traditional system where Dalits can’t even step in.

        This caste-denominated monopoly over money and over transactional benefits…

        CBP: Yes. That is why I say, what man failed to do, capitalism is doing. Let us go with capitalism that is changing caste faster than your reforms.”

      • vyas says:

        //Ha ha.. Does anyone bother about the name in call center ? this happens only in call centers which deals with voice based service. No one is changing their real names for this. The family or friends do not call someone as ‘David’ when the real name is ‘kumar’.//

        You don’t even have the intelligence to understand my real intention. When they can change your name for convenience, how long do you think it will take for them to change your other entities. They have changed your dress code, your food habits, your language and almost everything native of you. And you still enjoy it? It may be okay for headless chickens like you but not for people like me.

        //From this blog itself, it can be seen that educated people support caste more than others. So, Education is not going to stop anything. We need a strong system which condemns caste based oppression and gives equal rights to all. More than that, we need people who considers a fellow citizen as a friend or a brother instead of thinking him as his subordinate who can be discriminated because of his birth.//

        It clearly shows that you don’t read my comments properly. I only talked of education to fix caste oppression related issues. I never talked of removing castes. That can happen only in your dreams. Equal rights is an abrahamic view. It will only destroy families and make us all individuals. It was a system devised by the likes of idiotic communists and capitalists. This has simply ruined both Europe and America. You morons will only see the Skyscrapers in the West. You don’t know to see anything beyond that there. This friendship bullshit and all will not last long. Any relationship which is not biological is bound to fade away during the course of time. Only biological relationships can be carried forward.

        //I don’t need a ‘lower caste’ identity in the first place and will be very happy if that identity gets destroyed. I never had to go through the sort of discrimination that my father and grandfathers went through and my father used to say losing such identities is actually better than living with one. Today, I don’t even know the caste of my friends or colleagues and that’s how it should be. Good riddance of caste.//

        There is nothing called lower caste identity. There is only caste identity. If you want to be forget your caste identities and be a headless chicken, you are more than welcome to do it. But don’t preach your stupid lessons to us. We are not individuals and we need our vamsa to groom after our death. The experiences of your father and grandfather are all personal and cannot be generalized. Even I don’t know the caste of many of friends. So what? Castes were not created to be announced through a mike set. It was created for evolving communities thereby creating a parampara.

        //What identity that I want to live with entirely depends on my wish. The caste morons are slowly losing their grip on other people’s identities and cannot bear that.//

        Not all Identities are based on wish you idiot. Certain identities come by birth, certain come by acquaintance etc. Even today most of the countries consider a person as it’s citizen if he is born there. Why don’t you people treat this as a discrimination? Birth based identities are always special no matter which age we live in. You morons are obsessed with it which is why you are hating it.

        ///Less than 5% people work in corporate companies. The bigger change is actually happening in the SME sector which provides the biggest employment in the country. The lower castes are finding out opportunities in this sector and have realized that their biggest chance for freedom from castes oppression is actually in the market economy where old rules do not apply.//

        Funny. Looks like you morons never study the actual situation in the society. Just watch this video and see how caste based entrepreneurship is grooming in the country.

        Neither capitalism, communism, socialism nor any other ‘ism can destroy castes from our society. Humans are born to live inside communities no matter how hard you try to individualize them. The Hindu version of caste structure is pretty rock solid. You can utmost be successful in shaking it a bit but cannot destroy it. Try harder if you can.

    • senthil says:

      It is extremely shameful for one to doubt their ancestors.. In our region, even the SC communities maintain their purity of bloodline, based on their own gothra system.. they did not doubt like this..

      The reason i argue with such confidence is that I have many documentary evidences, to prove my case and i have solid understanding of our social fabric by interacting with people at ground level.. but you have only colonial narrations, and dont have any other perspectives..

      /** Why did the missionaries manage to convert many of the lower and the scheduled castes much higher than the other upper castes if there was no discrimination.
      **/

      The missionaries had the patronage of britishers and had been enjoying powerful support from european nations even today.. inspite of that, majority of Dalits are still following their traditions, and are NOT yet converted.. The conversions were because of the extreme poverty unleashed by the britishers on indian society.. (pls see the film “paradesi” by director bala )

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmhhENOVwWo

      It is the britishers and the missionaries who discriminated every other people..

      Now so many converted dalits are returning back to their own traditions, as they earn comfortably today.. NOT just dalits, other christians are secretly worshipping their kuladevata, and was fined by the church for doing so.. (ofcourse you people dont see this as discrimination or oppression)

      In our traditional society, there is no chance for discrimination because it is NOT a centralised one.. when every jathi was given separate space to live and follow their tradition and have their own infrastructures, where is the scope for discrimination..

      On the other hand, it is your indian government which had destroyed the villages, forced the dalits to clean septic tanks of their urban population, and made them to live in slums, and converted them in to cultural and societal orphans..

  56. “Just because your assumed impurity, to say that we become bastards and bitches is something most idiotic..”
    We DO NOT become bastards and bitches due to Inter caste or Inter religious or Inter racial marriage. Get that into your dumb head first. Memorize it and repeat 100 times daily you deceased bigot..

    There are 1000s like you there living in this country who think they have the license to kill somebody from becoming a ‘bastard or a bitch’ if they chose to marry some outsider.. Leave them alone.. they are not your property. Let;s not have more Elavarasans and Dharmapuris..

    • vyas says:

      //There are 1000s like you there living in this country who think they have the license to kill somebody from becoming a ‘bastard or a bitch’ if they chose to marry some outsider.. Leave them alone.. they are not your property. Let;s not have more Elavarasans and Dharmapuris..//

      You morons keep repeating the same blunder again and again. Who justified honor killings? Behind every inter-caste marriage especially when it involves a Dalit girl or boy, there is always going to be some politics behind it and in most of the cases there is no genuine love involved between the brides. It’s just another form of Love Jihad happening in Kerala. The main intention in these issues is to use every available opportunity to eradicate the caste system and weaken the caste based political parties. I see this pattern in every such incident both in the North and the South. The Dalit network is fast becoming highly anti national day by day. They’ve completely abandoned Indian culture and ethos. They are fast becoming a military organization and there is no surprise if they even turn out to be like Maoists in the future. Their identities have already been completely hijacked by vested interests. There are even (false) theories being proposed that the Dalits originated in Africa and that they are not natives of India. Now, they’ve lost track of their identities and have become completely militarized. They were once the kings of tribal areas but right now they have become prisoners of the Dalit movement. There are hundreds of cases pending against each Dalit for various crimes that they simply cannot come out of this prison any sooner, if they try to come out they’ll land themselves in jails forever. It’s high time that we should start freeing these innocents from the prisons of political Dalit movements. These people too are the sons of soil and I have high regard for every them and every other caste in our country. Don’t be stupid by asking people like me to demonstrate the same by inter-marrying. I don’t support inter-caste marriages. It’s as bad as conversion. Inter caste marriages will create a chaotic future generation and eventually destroy both the Jaathis in the long run. For people who don’t want to follow the caste system they are more than welcome to move away from it. It is only when girls are systematically targeted with vested interests that problems arise.

      • “Who justified honor killings?”

        Those who do that and people like you who invent some theories of love jihad.. I’m yet to hear from the caste supporters here that what happened in Dharmapuri is condemnable and is not good for the society when people are killed for inter caste marriages.

        “Behind every inter-caste marriage especially when it involves a Dalit girl or boy, there is always going to be some politics behind it and in most of the cases there is no genuine love involved between the brides.”

        Whether there is genuine love or not, that should be decided by the couples. Not by the caste police. Even if there is politics behind it, that is no justification for killing or ostracizing people for this. The other implication of your statement is that true love cannot exist between a Dalit boy/girl and people from other castes. This shows how much hate is there due to caste.

        “the Dalit network is fast becoming highly anti national day by day. They’ve completely abandoned Indian culture and ethos. They are fast becoming a military organization and there is no surprise if they even turn out to be like Maoists in the future.”

        There are dalit parties which exploit dalits but they are no different from other caste parties who exploit their own castes. That’s why we need caste to be removed from the equation in order to discuss the actual issues of education, healthcare, employment etc. As long as caste dominates society, there will be politics around it for sure. It’s only now that these Dalit parties are in prominence that the upper castes are branding them as anti-national.

        “Don’t be stupid by asking people like me to demonstrate the same by inter-marrying. I don’t support inter-caste marriages. It’s as bad as conversion. ”

        Well, if you feel that way, it’s fine. But don’t institutionalize caste and police on others if they chose to inter-marry. And don’t kill them for dong so..

        “Inter caste marriages will create a chaotic future generation and eventually destroy both the Jaathis in the long run.’
        Exactly. That’s why we need it. The governments should also remove the ‘caste’ column from the forms. Once the incentive for caste is removed, people will naturally move away from it.

        “It is only when girls are systematically targeted with vested interests that problems arise.”
        So you agree that it’s when the girls from the upper castes inter-marry, there is a problem. Many of the upper castes have no qualms in marrying lower caste girls but when the upper caste girls marry lower caste boys the caste police kicks in. It’s also hypocritical when many of these upper caste leaders regularly have affairs with the lower caste girls but deny it when it’s the other way around..

      • vyas says:

        //Those who do that and people like you who invent some theories of love jihad.. I’m yet to hear from the caste supporters here that what happened in Dharmapuri is condemnable and is not good for the society when people are killed for inter caste marriages.//

        You are showing your stupidity again. I never justified honor killings. I only condemn the forced love or artificially created love between couples. If you don’t know about Love Jihad then better stop talking about it. Love Jihad is new weapon revolving around the country to destroy castes. The truth about Dharmapuri is never going to come out. The foreign funded media is neither going to let the truth come out. If the truth comes out as unfavorable to them they’ll go to any extent to hide it.

        //Whether there is genuine love or not, that should be decided by the couples. Not by the caste police. Even if there is politics behind it, that is no justification for killing or ostracizing people for this. The other implication of your statement is that true love cannot exist between a Dalit boy/girl and people from other castes. This shows how much hate is there due to caste.//

        Indian marriages are not decided by the brides alone. The whole family takes part in this ritual. Only individual a**sh**s like you talk of love as decision maker between the couples alone. In our culture even love marriages need approval from parents. Nobody justified the killings. Don’t repeat your bullshit statements again. True love is not that where two individuals are attracted to each other. After marriage the couples are not going to live alone in their own alien world. They need to have support from their families. Today love has just become a precursor to sex. For people like you it may be okay but definitely not for us.

        //Exactly. That’s why we need it. The governments should also remove the ‘caste’ column from the forms. Once the incentive for caste is removed, people will naturally move away from it.//

        Who the f**k are you to destroy it? If you don’t want to be part of it, you have the complete freedom to stay away from it. It is this very attitude of people like you that’s making castes stronger and stronger. We should really thank you for that :-). Castes can never be destroyed. It can only take a backseat in the future if at all needed. It has only become stronger all these days.

        //So you agree that it’s when the girls from the upper castes inter-marry, there is a problem. Many of the upper castes have no qualms in marrying lower caste girls but when the upper caste girls marry lower caste boys the caste police kicks in. It’s also hypocritical when many of these upper caste leaders regularly have affairs with the lower caste girls but deny it when it’s the other way around..//

        I believe Senthil already answered this question but I don’t understand why you keep asking it. Even boys are outcasted when they inter marry. But when you compare a boy and a girl, a girl is a very soft target and can easily been made to fall in love. Also it is the boys who keep hunting for girls and not the other way. All over the World women have become entities of attraction (due to your stupid urban culture), so it’s quiet natural that the focus is more on the girl. Your other argument about upper caste leaders having affairs is all junk and doesn’t warrant a response.

    • senthil says:

      Ofcourse, you will say even one does not become a bitch even if she F** everyone.. that’s the kind of attitude you have.. a bastard is the one who is born out of social norms.. the same with inter-caste marriage.. in both case, you make people lose their legitimacy and identity..

      The honor killing is because of you people, who instigate teenage people to go against their parents and traditional kinships.. it is you who is the culprit here, NOT the victim parents ..

      It is you who has to leave the communities alone..

      • How are they related ? People who marry someone from other caste or religion or any other category only become couples.

        “in both case, you make people lose their legitimacy and identity..”

        Who the hell are you to declare ‘legitimacy and identity’ on others ? This is the attitude that shows up every now and then in the killings that we see. Also, what makes you think that ‘caste’ identity is the only identity that one should have ? We all have multiple identities and the tolerant ones do not go killing to protect certain identities.

        “The honor killing is because of you people, who instigate teenage people to go against their parents and traditional kinships.. it is you who is the culprit here, NOT the victim parents ..”
        Another blame game syndrome which legitimizes honour killings. The implication: We will let people live as long as they live as per ‘our’ norms. Once someone breaches it, we will not mind killing them to protect the ‘honour’. Great idea. May more people follow you and go on a killing spree..

  57. poovannan says:

    http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/38C2.%20Who%20were%20the%20Shudras%20PART%20II.htm

    As is well known, Shivaji after having established a Hindu independent kingdom in the western part of Maharashtra thought of proclaiming himself a king by having his coronation performed. It was felt by Shivaji and his friends that the coronation ceremony if it was at all to be of any value must be performed according to Vedic rites. But in carrying out his wishes Shivaji found himself faced with many difficulties. He found that whether his coronation could be performed with Vedic rites dependent entirely upon the Brahmins. Nobody was from religious point of view qualified to perform the ceremony except a Brahmin. Secondly, he found that no such ceremony could be performed unless it was proved that he was a Kshatriya. There was a third difficulty, namely, that even if he was found to be a Kshatriya, he was past the age of Upanayana and without Upanayana there could be no coronation. The third difficulty was a minor one for it could be got over by the performance of the Vratya Stoma ceremony. The first difficulty was the greatest stumbling block. It related to Shivaji’s status. The question was, was he a Kshatriya? If that could be got over, the rest was easy. Shivaji’s claim that he was Kshatriya was opposed by many. His principal opponents were Brahmins who were led by his own Prime Minister Moro Pant Pingle. Unfortunately for Shivaji even his Maratha Sardars had refused to give him social precedence1[f35] and had ranged themselves against him. In their view, he was a Shudra. Shivaji’s claim was also in direct conflict with the well established thesis long insisted upon by the Brahmins that there were no Kshatriyas in the Kali age. Shivaji was living in the Kali age. Obviously he could not be a Kshatriya. This objection to his claim for the status of Kshatriya was further strengthened by the non-performance of the ceremony of Upanayana or the investiture of the sacred thread at the proper time, which was fixed by the Sastras to be the eleventh year in the case of the Kshatriyas. This was taken to be evidence of his being a Shudra. He was however fortunate in securing the services of one Gagabhat, a renowned Brahmin, resident of Benares, learned both in the Vedas and Sastras. Gagabhat solved all difficulties and performed Shivaji’s coronation# on 6th June 1674 at Raigad first after performing the Vratya Stoma and then the Upanayana.

    #It seems that some Brahmins were preapared to perform Shivaji’s coronation but with non-Vedic, i.e., with Pauranic rites as is done in the case of Shudras. They predicted all sorts of evils to happen if Shivaji had his coronation performed with Vedic rites. Unfortunately these evils did take place and Shivaji who undoubtedly was superstitious had another coronation performed according to non-Vedic rites. The following account of this second coronation taken from Mr. C. V. Vaidya makes interesting reading: Obstnictive and dissatisfied Brahmins there were even then as always. They did not deem the ceremony satisfactory, though it was acclaimed by the whole of Maharashtra. A poem named Rajyabhisheka Kalpataru, a copy of which is in the Library of the Bengal Royal Asiatic Society and which has been published from it by Itihas S. Mandal of Poona (Quarterly, Vol. X-I), embodies some objections raised against the coronation ceremony gone through. This poem is not quite contemporary, as it mentions the later idea that Shivaji was an incarnation of Siva (not of Vishnu as represented by the earlier Shivabharata) though it is of the time of Rajaram. It gives an imaginary conversation between Nischalpuri, a learned Brahmin ascetic of Benares who was an opponent of Gagabhat, and Govindbhat Barve as taking place in Konkan. It recounts the ill omens which preceded and followed the coronation, such as the death of Prataprao Gujar, the death of Kashibai, wife of Shivaji, etc., and the wound caused to Gagabhat himself on the nose by the falling of a rafter. The poem expressly says that Gagabhat engaged for the ceremony those Brahmins only who were his followers and refused to employ those recommended by Nis’chalpuri. Many defects in the ceremony itself, are next mentioned. Thus when Shivaji was getting into the chariot after the ceremony of ascending the throne Gagabhat himself first sat in the chariot and then Shivaji. After seeing the whole ceremony through Nis’chalpuri left the fort but told Shivaji that bad events would happen on the 13th, 22nd and 55th days. On the 13th day accordingly, Shivaji’s mother died. Next a horse-shed was burnt at Pratapgad with good many horses in it and an elephant died on Sinhgad. These incidents induced Shivaji to call Nis’chalpuri back and through him and his Brahmins Shivaji performed afresh the ceremony of ascending the throne, not with Vedic rites, but Tantrik or magical. This ceremony is also described in detail. There are mentioned some Vedic mantras from Sama Veda as recited; but the ceremony was not Vedic. It was performed on Ashvin Suddha 5 (Lalita Panchami day S. 1596), as’is stated at the end of the peorn. This ceremony is also mentioned by J and Nis’chapuri is also spoken of in a Mahomedan record.’—.Shivaji the Founder of Maratha Swaraj, pp. 252-253.

    Shivaji’s case is important for several reasons. It is important because it proves that nobody except a Brahmin has the right to perform the Upanayana and that nobody can compel a Brahmin to perform it if he is not prepared to do so. Shivaji was the ruler of an independent kingdom and had already started styling himself Maharaja and Chhatrapati. There were many Brahmins who were his subjects. Yet, Shivaji could not compel anyone of them to perform his coronation.

    It is important because it proves that the ceremony to be valid must be performed by a Brahmin. A ceremony performed by a non-Brahmin would be infructuous. It was open to Shivaji to have his coronation performed by a non-Brahmin. But he did not dare[f36] to do it. For he knew it would be without any social or spiritual efficacy.

    In the third place, it is important because it proves that the power of determining the status of a Hindu depends entirely upon the will of the Brahmins. The decision in favour of Shivaji is sought to be justified by the geneology which was brought from Mewar by Shivaji’s friend, Balaji Avaji, and which connected Shivaji with the Sisodyas of Mewar who were reckoned as Kshatriyas
    It has been alleged that the geneology was a fabrication got up for the occasion.

    • senthil says:

      ambedkar is a british stooge, and a moron.. you are quoting devil’s words here..

    • Surya Ramachandran says:

      /** Shivaji was living in the Kali age. Obviously he could not be a Kshatriya. **/
      Are you trying to say that no Raja has ever been coronated in the past 2000 years. What about the Guptas, who were Shudaras.

      • poovannan says:

        There where different procedures for sudras and the brahmins in south made everyone sudras unlike north making people fish in troubled waters by quoting a few nair or reddy or gounder or ezhava or baduga ruling clans(Blue blooded was the only criteria for taking a offficial wife and these ruling clans had relationships with sinhalese/nepalese too but now are coming under caste groups)as representing the entire group.
        The rise in population is a clear sign of good governance and unfortunately India never had good governance till 1947.The population rise post independence and increase in average life span have clearly proved the sufferings of majority of people in the last thousands of years but refused to be accepted by people blinded by beleif of a utopia 2000 years back based on rigid birth based caste society

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        @poovannan
        Stop changing stances as an how you want. First it was Shivaji. When it was said that he used Gureilla warfare, you rejected it with you Shudra claim. When Gupta issue was pointed out now you have started south Indian . Next you have started to claim Rajas are not representatives of their jatis. Instead of giving such generalized statments, why don’t you say and justify that Dheeran Chinnamalai and Veerapandi Gattabomman are not repreresntatives of their representative jatis.

      • senthil says:

        /** Are you trying to say that no Raja has ever been coronated in the past 2000 years. What about the Guptas, who were Shudaras.
        **/

        First what is your source for claiming that shivaji and guptas are shudras?

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        I figured out that the Guptas i.e. the Maheshwari, Agarwal were actually Vaishyas (wiki page mentions this). Still they were coronated. My point still holds. It was not just the Kshtriyas who were coronated.

  58. poovannan says:

    கோத்திரங்கள் எப்படி உருவானது எனபது முக்கியமான விஷயம் இல்லையா.கலப்பு ஏற்படுவது மனிதருள் தவிர்க்க முடியாதது
    வேதத்தில் சொல்லப்பட்டிருக்கும் இந்த வரிகளை பாருங்கள்

    http://www.brahmintoday.org/magazine/2011_issues/bt83-0110_sun.php
    யன்மே மாதா ப்ரலுலோப சரதி அனனுவ்ரத| தன்மேரேத: பிதாவ் ருந்தாம்| ஆபுரன்யோ வபத்யதாம்”|

    என்னுடையதாய், அதாவது, தன் பிதுர்க்களுக்கு அவிர் பாகம் கொடுக்கும் கர்த்தாவினுடைய தாய், தன் சுவதர்ம்ம விரதத்திற்கு விரோதமாக நடந்ததினால், உண்டான ரேதஸ், அதாவது இந்த்ரியமாக இருந்தபோதிலும் (அந்த ரேதஸ் மனோ வாக்கு செயல் தோஷங்களால் சம்பந்தப்பட்டே, தான் பிறந்திருந்தபோதிலும்), அந்த ரேதசானது, அந்த ரேதசால் உண்டான என் உடல் ஜன்மமானது, என் சாக்ஷாத் பிதா, அதாவது, என் தாயின் மணக் கணவன், அதாவது, எந்த கோத்திர குலத்தில் நானுதித்து அதன் பிதுருக்கள் திருப்திக்காக இக்கர்மாவை பூர்த்திக்கிறேனோ, அவனுடைய ரேதசாகவே மாறட்டும். அதாவது அவனுக்கே இந்தப் பலன் போய்ச் சேரட்டும். தாயின் விருத பங்கத்திற்குக் காரணமான, இதர மனிதனுக்குப் போய்ச் சேர வேண்டாம், இந்த அன்யத்தால் வந்த கேடானது நாசமாகட்டும்-என்கிறது வேதம்.

    There existed mixture of people across castes even in vedic age and purity in birth was a rarity and even brahmins who never had niyogams or acceptance of marriage of their caste women to other varnas(it was permitted for varnas below them where there was no bar a male from a varna higher to take women from lower varnas and this intermingling groups formed a higher status than descendants of those born to couple belonging to the same varna as the descendants of the higher varna-lowervarna couple had a chance to attain higher varna on certain conditions

  59. ganapathy says:

    http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/38C2.%20Who%20were%20the%20Shudras%20PART%20II.htm

    Upanayana was allowed for the deaf, the dumb, the idiot and even the impotent. A special procedure was prescribed for the Upanayana of the deaf and dumb and idiots. The principal points in which their Upanayana differs from that of others are that the offering of Samidh, treading on a stone, putting on a garment, the tying of mekhala, the giving of deer skin and staff are done silently, that the boy does not mention his name, it is the achary a himself who makes offering of cooked food or of clarified butter, all the mantras are muttered softly by the achary a himself. The same procedure is followed as to other persons who are impotent, blind, lunatic, suffering from such diseases as epilepsy, white leprosy or black leprosy, etc.

    The six anuloma castes were also eligible for Upanayana; this is clear from the rules[f21]for the Upanayana of Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and of mixed castes like Rathakara, Ambashtha, etc,

    Upanayana was permitted to Patitasavitrikas. The proper age for the Upanayana of a Brahman boy was 8th year from birth, of a Kshatriya 11th year and of a Vaishya 12th year. But a certain latitude was allowed so that the time for Upanayana was not deemed to have passed upon the 16th, the 22nd and the 24th year in the case of Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas respectively. After these years are passed without Upanayana taking place, a person was held to have become incompetent thereafter for learning the Savitri (the sacred Gayatri verse). Such persons were then called Patitasavitrika or savitripatita. According to the strict interpretation of rules, no Upanayana is to be thereafter performed for them, they are not to be taught the Veda, nor is anyone to officiate at their sacrifices and there is to be no social intercourse with them (i.e., no marriage takes place with them). But even in their case, there was readiness to relax the rules [f22]subject to certain penances.

    Upanayana was permitted in the case of Brahmaghnas. A Brahmaghna is a person whose father or grandfather had failed to perform Upanayana. The original rule [f23]was that if a person’s father and grandfather also had not the Upanayana performed for them then they (i.e., the three generations) are called slayers of brahma (holy prayers or lore); people should have no intercourse with them, should not take their food nor should enter into marriage alliance with them. But even in their case the rule was relaxed and they were allowed Upanayana if they desired, provided they performed the prescribed penance.

    A wide gulf lies between the Vedic Kshatriyas and the Rajputs of mediaeval times which it is now impossible to bridge. It is now certain that the origin of many clans dates from the Saka or Kushan invasions of more certainly from that of the White Huns who destroyed the Gupta empire about 480 A.D. The Gujar tribe connected with the latter people adopted Hinduism and their leaders formed the main stock from which the higher Rajput families sprang. When these new claimants to princely honour accepted the faith and the institution of Brahmanism the attempt would naturally be made to connect them with the heroes of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. Hence arose the body of legend recorded in these annals by which a fabulous origin from the sun and the moon was ascribed to these Rajput families … The group denoted by the name Kshatriya or Rajput depended on status rather than on descent and it was therefore possible for foreigners to be introduced into these tribes without any violation of the prejudices of caste, which was then only partially developed. But it was necessary to disguise this admission of foreigners under a convenient fiction. Hence arose the legend how by a solemn act of purification or initiation under the superintendence of the ancient Vedic Rishis, fire—born septs were created to help the Brahmins in repressing Buddhism and other heresies. This privilege was confined to four septs known as Agnikula or fire-born-viz., the Parmar, Parihar, Chalukya and Chauhan.

    Dr. D. R. Bhandarkar[f40] also holds the same view. According to him, the Rjaputs are the descendents of Gujars, the Gujars were foreigners and that the Rajputs are therefore the descendants of foreigners.

    • senthil says:

      pls dont reproduce contents of other sites.. what you quoted is rubbish.. instead of relying on these rubbish, just speak to a rajput and a gujjar and understand their tradition.. that will give you real knowledge..

      as long as you rely on these colonial texts, i will be having upper hand over you.. bcoz i speak from my own experience & understanding..

      • poovannan says:

        We are talking about facts and he is quoting all from tilak to reputed indian scholars who where in the forefront of fight against british.
        I have lived in north india and stayed with gujjars,jats,kashmiri pandits,jammu dogras etc for years and have a little bit of idea and knowledge about them
        You keep harping on dharmpal who based on the same british documents over a 1/100 area of india has drawn a glorious past which are nothing but halftruths.his arguments on sudras being rulers and educated in large parts is due to the brahmin beleif of no kshtariyas and their refusal to consider them kshtariyas making the various ruling clans be called as sudras.See things with a open mind and not blame others

  60. poovannan says:

    http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/38C2.%20Who%20were%20the%20Shudras%20PART%20II.htm

    In the second place, the strongest proof in support of the contention that there was no reconciliation between the Brahmins and the Shudras comes from the legislation enacted by the Brahmins against the Shudras. The laws against the Shudras have already been referred to. Their growth and their extraordinary character have been pointed out. All that remains to do is to say that against this background of black laws any suggestion regarding reconciliation must appear to be wholly untenable. The Brahmins not only did not forgive the Shudras, they pursued even the progeny of the Shudras-with the same spirit of relentless revenge. As many people do not seem to have any idea of this, it may be desirable to state a few facts regarding the Chandala and the Nishada.

    The Chandala and Nishada are the issues of mixed marriages. Nishada is an anuloma while the Chandala is a Pratiloma. The anulomas# are held to be eligible for Upanayana. But curiously enough an exception is made to this rule. Nishada who is the son of Brahman from a Shudra woman, though an anuloma, is held not to be eligible for Upanayana. It is interesting to know why this exception was made. The only answer seems to be that this arbitrary act is an act of revenge against the children of one’s enemy.

  61. “They have changed your dress code, your food habits, your language and almost everything native of you. And you still enjoy it? It may be okay for headless chickens like you but not for people like me.”

    These are changes for convenience.. I talk to people in English so that everyone can understand. I still talk to friends in local language. I still eat the food that is so called ‘traditional’ and only rarely eat the so called ‘foreign’ food. You people are paranoid and are afraid of change. That’s all..

    “Love Jihad is new weapon revolving around the country to destroy castes.”
    No, the original Love jihad is used by Islamists as a tool for forced conversions.. The casteists have borrowed the word to further their propaganda and spread fear. They are afraid that castes will be nullified by inter caste marriages and hence the lies..

    “Indian marriages are not decided by the brides alone. The whole family takes part in this ritual. Only individual a**sh**s like you talk of love as decision maker between the couples alone. In our culture even love marriages need approval from parents.”

    Getting approval from parents is fine but demanding approval from the entire society and the caste leaders is not proper.

    “Castes can never be destroyed. It can only take a backseat in the future if at all needed. It has only become stronger all these days.”

    If caste is becoming stronger, why is the author of the blog lamenting about caste being ignored ? You have been arguing for strengthening it. The fact is caste is becoming irrelevant day by day. You guys cleverly link every traditional thing with caste. Our ancient science, mathematics, philosophy etc. which we need to cherish and revive have nothing to do with caste. We can still revive them without living in a rigid caste system.

    • senthil says:

      Caste has been stronger, but doesnt mean, you can take it for granted and abuse it as per your wish.. i am defending my own jathi, and own jathi tradition..

      caste is made irrelevant today by your colonial india, because it had destroyed its administrative structure and exploiting it.. you are justifying this heinous crime, without an iota of guilt..

    • vyas says:

      //These are changes for convenience.. I talk to people in English so that everyone can understand. I still talk to friends in local language. I still eat the food that is so called ‘traditional’ and only rarely eat the so called ‘foreign’ food. You people are paranoid and are afraid of change. That’s all..//

      It’s not that easy my friend. It will all start with convenient factor only and then finally will eat you up eventually. You are lamenting that you are consuming traditional food only. Today, a plate of Idli costs Rs 30 on an average. For Rs.25 McDonalds and KFC are offering combos of upto 4 items. If this trend continues a plate of idli will cost Rs100 and the price of a burger will be just Rs.10/-. Imagine what will an average person buy? His priority will always be over the price than over his tradition which is quiet natural since it involves economy. Already rice production is in the ever decreasing rate and adding to this FDI is stepping in. If you put all these factors together the focus will be more on production than tradition.

      //No, the original Love jihad is used by Islamists as a tool for forced conversions.. The casteists have borrowed the word to further their propaganda and spread fear. They are afraid that castes will be nullified by inter caste marriages and hence the lies..//

      I too know that it started in Kerala, but a similar type of thing is being planned here too by the Dalit movements. Dalits are vouching at every political meeting that every Dalit should marry an upper caste girl to destroy jaathis. What’s wrong with calling such attitudes as Love Jihad?

      //Getting approval from parents is fine but demanding approval from the entire society and the caste leaders is not proper. //

      Don’t twist our arguments. When did we mention consulting caste leaders here. Even if he was consulted, it’s done only due to respect and there is no norm to get approval of caste leaders unless there is an undergoing dispute between the villages of the brides. Don’t equate the caste leader to that of a pope.

      //If caste is becoming stronger, why is the author of the blog lamenting about caste being ignored ? You have been arguing for strengthening it. The fact is caste is becoming irrelevant day by day. You guys cleverly link every traditional thing with caste. Our ancient science, mathematics, philosophy etc. which we need to cherish and revive have nothing to do with caste. We can still revive them without living in a rigid caste system.//

      We are just ringing warning bells. That’s all. Also we are making efforts to clear bad intentions about caste. The colonial history has simply taught us the distorted view of our society. Many true facts have been hidden or deliberately ignored. Blogs like this highlight this and bring wisdom to people. Caste has nothing to do with scientific discoveries. It’s a social structure which if implemented properly will help in grooming talented people who can do wonders. This is how our ancient civilization thrived in the field of science.

  62. rajeashish says:

    I was to listen to a video of Rajiv Malhotra on Breaking India & Indian Knowledge Systems in the meanwhile I re-read your above essay “A war of 3 indias – my response to Rajiv Malhotra”. I consider you have led to rest all. I would no more want to learn from Anglophile Rajiv Malhotra about Bharat. Your essay stopped me to venture Rajiv Malhotra’s videos. I can only be indebted to you for bringing out the stark truth about Bharat. Truth is incredbile.

    • senthil says:

      Rajeev has his own points, which may not be fully correct.. but he has so many things well researched.. pls dont skip his books..

      • swami says:

        Senthil, this is exactly what i told. Didnt i? Here we have Rajeashish who mis understood.

        On one hand, rajiv is trying to reach out to people, and you can just put all his effort out just by your simple idea that he may not be fully correct. Thats why, sometimes being diplomatic helps..

    • swami says:

      Oh no no sir.. please continue. We are just discussing different perspectives. Everyone is in a learning and exploring mode. So dont take any decision and decide one person is good or bad. Just keep exploring. You are on the right track. Rajiv is THE GUY. Dont loose his work.

  63. “Equal rights is an abrahamic view. It will only destroy families and make us all individuals. It was a system devised by the likes of idiotic communists and capitalists.”

    When caste does not discriminate according to you, why is equality a problem ? When we say equality, we mean the equality of opportunities. Giving the same opportunities to everyone irrespective of caste, religion, gender etc. When you deny somebody the chances because of their caste, you are basically saying that their birth condemns them to achieving only certain things and not others..

    “This friendship bullshit and all will not last long. Any relationship which is not biological is bound to fade away during the course of time. Only biological relationships can be carried forward.”

    That’s your opinion.. May be you haven’t seen good friends or made any because of your caste prejudice..

    “If you want to be forget your caste identities and be a headless chicken, you are more than welcome to do it. ”

    How does ignoring caste make me a headless chicken ? The identities that I want to live with are chosen by me. I can’t change some but that need not bother me in my life. I may not be able to change the caste but I can live in a way in which I don’t worry about caste. My identities’ preferences need not match yours but there exist multiple identities for each person and every one is free to chose the one they live with.

    “Even today most of the countries consider a person as it’s citizen if he is born there. Why don’t you people treat this as a discrimination?”

    Because most countries do not discriminate the basic services for a citizen and others. Even for illegal migrants, services like water, shelter etc. are not denied. Besides, most countries offer a way to become citizens after achieving certain things. None of this is possible in caste. That;s the problem with birth based rigid caste system.

    “Birth based identities are always special no matter which age we live in. You morons are obsessed with it which is why you are hating it.”

    It’s going to be irrelevant in 50 years. Your grandchildren may not even know which caste they belonged to and what was the use with it.. The only birth based identity that will exist is the family identity and not caste. Not many still put the caste names after their surnames today when it was popular 2 generations before.

    “Humans are born to live inside communities no matter how hard you try to individualize them. The Hindu version of caste structure is pretty rock solid. You can utmost be successful in shaking it a bit but cannot destroy it. Try harder if you can.”

    Except that the term ‘community’ has been evolving depending on time and age. You people think ‘caste’ is the only form of community that can exist but it’s not true. My ‘community’ today includes people from different caste, religion etc. It’s not confined to somebody’s birth. Families in the future are going to be like this with people belonging to different origins mingling and coexisting with each other. There will still be casteists like you, no doubt, but they will become irrelevant. They can write blogs like this and vent their anger may be..

    • senthil says:

      /** When caste does not discriminate according to you, why is equality a problem ? When we say equality, we mean the equality of opportunities. Giving the same opportunities to everyone irrespective of caste, religion, gender etc
      **/

      Does your urban indian govt follows equality? why does it discriminates based on caste, by giving caste based reservations?

      • I’m against Reservations as it punishes the current generation for the mistakes of previous generation and also it measures the outcome instead of opportunities.. Instead of developing primary education, politicians use caste groups as vote banks and demand reservation..

      • swami says:

        Comfortable reply from India FIrst. IF it affects him, he will reject it (reservation today).Oppurtunist.

      • senthil says:

        /** I’m against Reservations as it punishes the current generation for the mistakes of previous generation
        **/

        Then you should fight against the govt instead of demonising jathi..

        I am for Occupation based reservation in education and jobs rather than caste based.. a farming jathi should have preference over farming courses and jobs, and leather working jathis should have preference over leather technology and jobs.. the CLRI should be reserved for all leather working communities.. that would have improved their occupational skills and would have made them prosperous..

        but by throwing these “Job Opportunities” to public auction, it is your govt which enabled unrelated people (who are just proficient in clerical skills) to occupy the jobs and deny that position to the real benefactors (the leather working jathis)..

        If you people had been open enough to think all these, you would not be demonising jathis by mortgaging your brains..

    • vyas says:

      //When caste does not discriminate according to you, why is equality a problem ? When we say equality, we mean the equality of opportunities. Giving the same opportunities to everyone irrespective of caste, religion, gender etc. When you deny somebody the chances because of their caste, you are basically saying that their birth condemns them to achieving only certain things and not others..//

      Equality is nothing but a method of oppression by the stronger against the weaker. By globalizing their ideologies they are just killing your identities. This is a strategy followed by Abrahamic religions especially Christianity. They’ll talk to you nicely, act as if they are helping you, and will eventually swallow you. They came here and mesmerized us in the name of equal education and opened all sorts of institutions and eventually hijacked our traditional education system and as a result right now we just churn out a bunch of engineering idiots who are fit for nothing. All our traditional skills have been lost over time. Back then each jaathi had it’s own profession and were highly skilled in that area. Today all we have is a bunch of morons coming out of college capable of doing nothing but ready to work as corporate coolies.

      //That’s your opinion.. May be you haven’t seen good friends or made any because of your caste prejudice.. //

      Your comments are too amateur and the way you write it looks like you are still a college going lad. How many friendships have lasted for even a few generations? Say you are me are friends today. What’s the guarantee that our sons or daughters will be friends too? This kind of relationship is weak and will not last longer. Moreover there is neither bondage nor compulsion in this relationship. Whereas in the case of families one is bound to take care of their parents or siblings.

      //How does ignoring caste make me a headless chicken ? The identities that I want to live with are chosen by me. I can’t change some but that need not bother me in my life. I may not be able to change the caste but I can live in a way in which I don’t worry about caste. My identities’ preferences need not match yours but there exist multiple identities for each person and every one is free to chose the one they live with.//

      If you can’t acknowledge even your own parampara what’s the point of your being in the World. Anyway it’s up to you if you want to acknowledge it or not. For me my caste is closely tied up with my tradition, lifestyle and parampara. What more can give a identity than this? Basic identities cannot be changed and it need not be changed too. Every human has a basic biological identity associated with his/her parents. Modern societies are so bastardized that they’ve lost even this identity as they don’t even know the people responsible for their birth. This is why the state is burdened to take responsibility of them. This is not the case with India. Even if the govt collapses India will still function barring just a few issues. This is the power of our nation and this is exclusively because of Jaathi and family system.

      //It’s going to be irrelevant in 50 years. Your grandchildren may not even know which caste they belonged to and what was the use with it.. The only birth based identity that will exist is the family identity and not caste. Not many still put the caste names after their surnames today when it was popular 2 generations before//

      Only in your dreams. Why do you think people like me and Senthil arguing with people like you? It is only to carry forward the benefits of this system to the next generation. In fact the caste structure is more needed only for the future generations to prevent them from being bastardized. Barring just TamilNadu, people of almost every other state put their caste names as surnames. I think you are living in your own World. This situation will change in TamilNadu too very soon. People like Senthil are already laying the foundations for the same. Fifty or hundred years ago when India was in acute poverty, communism was at it’s peak and periyar movements were creating thunder waves everybody thought neither Hinduism nor the Jaathi system will not be able to survive for long. But now we see that communism is almost dead, periyar movements all stand failed but Hinduism and caste system are still standing tall and high. The same way even fifty years later something will happen to make these structures survive.

      //Except that the term ‘community’ has been evolving depending on time and age. You people think ‘caste’ is the only form of community that can exist but it’s not true. My ‘community’ today includes people from different caste, religion etc. It’s not confined to somebody’s birth. Families in the future are going to be like this with people belonging to different origins mingling and coexisting with each other. There will still be casteists like you, no doubt, but they will become irrelevant. They can write blogs like this and vent their anger may be..//

      We never said caste is the only form of community available. We even have communities in facebook and we are not against it. You may form as many communities as possible but they are all only temporary. Nothing has the power to last long like the caste communities. You definition of families that you are dreaming of will only be brothel houses. In fact such type of cosmopolitan families will result in chaos. It may even end the reproduction cycle completely. With those type of families, in just a few generations human race will be in danger of becoming extinct.

  64. swami says:

    @INdia First.

    /*Why do you take all the discussion to the British era ? We are living in 2013 and need to discuss what happens now.*/

    Then you are in a wrong place. British invation is a milestone and so to understand how india was before them is crucial to understand how things changed. this understanding is crucial to understand our present democrazy and sickularism. So its accurate of senthlis to pull you back in time of the pre britishers and british era. Got it?

    You will get it if you want to get it.

    • senthil says:

      /*Why do you take all the discussion to the British era ? We are living in 2013 and need to discuss what happens now.*/

      Even in 2013, we have the same rapacious colonial insitution that british era had.. and instead of britishers, the urban class people became new age colonisers..

    • My point is that caste problems of today are not going to be solved by discussing what British did. We need to address today’s society. You gain nothing by discussing the past. History is needed to learn the lessons , not to gloat about it endlessly. Today’s discrimination and poverty are not going to vanish by discussing British. It’s a fact that the lower castes are the most poor in our country and you are not going to solve it by forming the rigid caste system again..

  65. swami says:

    /*When we say equality, we mean the equality of opportunities.*/

    India First, are you talking in today’s context or of pre british? Even in today’s context, should everyone become engineer in name of equal oppurtunity?

    • poovannan says:

      We keep hitting the same point again and again. Its not necessary that all should become engineers but its defenitely discriminatory when some are told that they cannot become engineers as their parents/forefathers where doctors/reared pigs/priests etc.
      Is it fair to deny cricket or carnatic music or catering technology based on birth is the question for which one never gets an answer

      • senthil says:

        /** Its not necessary that all should become engineers but its defenitely discriminatory when some are told that they cannot become engineers as their parents/forefathers where doctors/reared pigs/priests etc.
        **/

        You are keeping repeating same propoganda lies again and again.. No one is stopping any caste from becoming engineer or doctors.. It is your urban india, which is preventing jathi people from following their own kula occupation..

        The accused is blaming the victim here..

      • vyas says:

        @Ponvannan – People like you are completely obsessed with birth centrism. You have to look at the issue by coming out of it. Occupational or educational compulsion happens in urban sectors too. Take the case of family owned businesses across the World, The children would almost be forced to take up the profession of their parents. Walmart is completely a family owned business so are the Rothschilds. In India Reliance is a prime example of family owned business. The Ambanis did not have a choice but to manage their father’s business. In fact this is a very neat example of birth based discrimination too. One can never become the Chairman of Reliance group unless he/she is born in the Ambani family. Why are you morons silent over this? . You people are not bothered about these because when the forced entity is economically wealthy nobody cares. When it comes to Jaathi, they are your easy targets. You need to come out of this mindset and analyze it from the top, else you are not going to understand it ever.

  66. senthil says:

    /** When we say equality, we mean the equality of opportunities. **/

    There is no such thing called equality of opportunities.. for eg, the aptitude tests conducted by the govt is done in english and discriminates those students who studied in vernacular language.. IT discriminates stronger people from weaker ones, by enabling the stronger to corner all resources for themselves, depriving the weaker ones..

    Like wise we can cite so many inferences..

    There is no absolute equality or universal equality..

    Our traditional jathi recognized this fact and hence alloted roles to different jathis.. It enforced a reservation based on occupation, and ensured that no jathi is affected by cut-throat competition.. so when their survival is gauranteed, people focussed on their value system and culture..

    What your urban govt had done is to destroy this inherent social security, and make everyone as industrial and corporate slaves..
    and you are projecting this as “Opportunities”.. the opportunity to become a slave??
    The opportunity to become part of the Exploitaing and Rapacious Colonial Institution???

    • “the aptitude tests conducted by the govt is done in english and discriminates those students who studied in vernacular language..”

      Which test are you talking about ? As far as I know, the state aptitude tests and even the IIT-JEE contains questions in both English and vernacular languages. If there are some, it needs to be changed. Simple.

      “There is no absolute equality or universal equality..”
      There may be exceptions depending on various factors. But as a general principle, we should move towards that.

      “Our traditional jathi recognized this fact and hence alloted roles to different jathis.. It enforced a reservation based on occupation, and ensured that no jathi is affected by cut-throat competition.. ”

      ‘ENFORCED’ – This is the point. Caste enforces something on others which they have no interest to follow. Besides, this ‘Enforcement’ is done by people from the affluent class who are considered superior by virtue of birth. The system uses the Lowest in the order for its own sustainability. When the people in this caste start protesting that they are given a raw deal, they are suppressed and condemned. Your caste system collapses when the lower castes rise and demand their due. That’s the reason we had so many reform movements throughout the history. Without periodic reforms, we may not see the Hinduism today at all. Not just Hinduism, any idea or a policy needs periodic revisions. A rigid system will collapse over time.

      “It enforced a reservation based on occupation, and ensured that no jathi is affected by cut-throat competition.. so when their survival is gauranteed, people focussed on their value system and culture..”

      How nice!! So, the lower castes were condemned to the least paying and the most difficult occupations so that they won’t face any competition ? Very noble indeed.. Who the hell are you to guarantee their survival. What kind of value system is it which condemns people to jobs whether they want to do or not ?

      “The opportunity to become a slave??
      The opportunity to become part of the Exploitaing and Rapacious Colonial Institution???’

      Stop your rubbish. Not even 5% of the working population works in corportate sector. The biggest employment generator is the SME sector which does not fit your classification. It is this sector that the lower castes have used in the days of free markets..

      • senthil says:

        /** ‘ENFORCED’ – This is the point. Caste enforces something on others which they have no interest to follow. Besides, this ‘Enforcement’ is done by people from the affluent class who are considered superior by virtue of birth.
        **/

        You are debating based on assumed things and NOT based on facts..

        1. you assume that every person in the jathi have no interest to follow their jathi profession.. this is totally wrong..

        2. You assume, jathi occupation as corporate job, and you assume that there is a supervisor with a stick / belt / gun in his hand, and enforces each jathi to do their job..

        you are continuously repeating your argument based on above assumptions..

        Jathi setup mutually enforces each other.. the higher caste has many restrictions in their life, and the lower caste had the freedom to question if they violated it.. similarly, every other jathi mutually enforces each other..

        In ramayana, a washerman had the freedom to talk ill of rama for keeping his wife after returning from lanka war.. and rama feared for your lower jathis..

        reg superiority and inferiority, i had clarified earlier, that it is based on one’s life code, and NOT based on power and authority.. it is your colonial india, which manipulated it to

        /** Besides, this ‘Enforcement’ is done by people from the affluent class who are considered superior by virtue of birth. **/

        A children who was born to parent of high discipline automatically gets a high reputation.. what is wrong in that..

      • senthil says:

        /** The system uses the Lowest in the order for its own sustainability. **/

        You are imposing the guilt of your urban society over traditional jathis.. it is your urban insitutions which is forcing people to do jobs that they dont like, and sustains by exploiting lower class, and the entire rural india..

        /** So, the lower castes were condemned to the least paying and the most difficult occupations so that they won’t face any competition ?
        **/

        It is your urban capitalistic corporate colonial india, which pays least to the lower most jobs.. In traditional jathi setup, the working jathis received just salary.. i have detailed statistics on this from my own grandfather..

        The labour jathis, get wages as part of the share of the harvest, and every year, each family would earn enough grains, to comfortably sit and eat for the whole year.. ie, people work during rainy seasons, produce enough food grains, and sustain themselves for whole year.. they enjoy their life during off-seasons (summer seasons) organising festivals.. Till today, the festivals of the rural india commence during april-may months, and this is a solid proof of the life of the village..

        It is your bloody urban india, which destroyed this independant life, and forced rural people to migrate to cities and work as industrial labour for meagre salaries..

        In your urban colonial institutions, the poor people are paid least, and have to compulsorily work every day, to fill their stomach.. this is what i call as slavery..

        I have already clarified you that it is the ruling caste which created villages, and settled the other castes, with proper endowments.. i have solid proof with me to show that all jathis had possessed lands in traditional setup.. it is your colonial india, which deprived them of their hereditary rights that lower castes had in their native village..

        To give an example, the devadasis had been a powerful community, with education, and skilled in arts and dance.. they had rights over temple endowments, and received a part of the income obtained from endowment lands..

        It is your colonial india, which persecuted them, and deprived them of these rights.. just look for devadasi abolition acts, and you will know it.. and bcoz of this deprivation, the devadasis became impoverished and were forced in to prostitution.. (read the book written by kannathasan, on how dravidian group were exploiting girls from this community and other poor families..

        /** Who the hell are you to guarantee their survival. What kind of value system is it which condemns people to jobs whether they want to do or not ?
        **/

        It is your urban colonial indian govt, which has impoverished people and condemned them to utter poverty, so that they have no other option but to become servile to your urban class.. it is your india who condemned the lower jathi people to clean sewages, toilets, septic tank, and to do other manual work..

        you are the accused here but you give sermons like angels..

        /** Stop your rubbish. Not even 5% of the working population works in corportate sector. The biggest employment generator is the SME sector which does not fit your classification.
        **/

        the biggest employment generator is the Jathi occupation, which constitute 70% of the current population.. It is the un-organised family oriented sectors that gives sustanence to the population.. NOT the SME’s.. the SME sectors you mentioned are minisature version of big corporates, and is modelled on capitalistic economy where employers exploit workers and reap enormous profits..

        Next, who is cleaning the toilets, sewages, septic tanks, streets, roads, and garbages of your urban india? Will you send your son/daughter to do that work? do all those who do this menial work, doing it out of interest?
        First answer for this before you can accuse the jathi setup..

    • absolute equality is not possible. People who want equality should be forced to send their kids to government schools without fail. No exceptions. Their kids should be brought up just like the poor kids. Until they agree for this, they shouldn’t open their mouth about equality.

      • People will send the children to government schools when the quality increases like in other countries. It’s only in India that people want to send their children to private schools because of the pathetic state of government schools.

        Hence I say we should strive for equality of opportunities, not equality of outcome..

      • swami says:

        Government schools are bad because of jaathi set up right? why dont you accuse jaathi for this too? Why spare it?

  67. “Comfortable reply from India FIrst. IF it affects him, he will reject it (reservation today).Oppurtunist.”

    Why would Reservation affect m? In fact, If possible I would have used it as I belong to the lower caste. My father was strict in not using the quotas and I agreed with him fully. It’s not ‘affecting’ me in any way. I have been consistent in the arguments. NO DISCRIMINATION in any name. It’s you guys who take different stances in different situations..

  68. “Occupational or educational compulsion happens in urban sectors too. Take the case of family owned businesses across the World, The children would almost be forced to take up the profession of their parents. Walmart is completely a family owned business so are the Rothschilds. In India Reliance is a prime example of family owned business. The Ambanis did not have a choice but to manage their father’s business. In fact this is a very neat example of birth based discrimination too. One can never become the Chairman of Reliance group unless he/she is born in the Ambani family. ”

    Do you know the difference between private companies and public policies ? It’s perfectly fine for any company to follow their own policies. I don’t mind you start a company and give jobs only to your caste people. The problem comes when you prevent someone else from starting a company or doing the same job. The Ambanis or Wallmarts may be family run. We will oppose them if they stop someone else from doing the same business because they are not Ambanis. If Reliance stops a new company from starting refineries or telecom operations, we will oppose them. Whether Ambanis do not have a choice or not is entirely their family decision. If the children are not competent enough, the company will suffer and they will pay the own price.

    “You people are not bothered about these because when the forced entity is economically wealthy nobody cares. When it comes to Jaathi, they are your easy targets. ”

    No, we are not bothered because it’s a private company. On the other hand, caste affects the public as a whole. Resources are denied, education denied, people are ostracized depending on birth. When you guys argue for a forced division of labour depending on birth, you are not talking of a single family. You are talking of millions of people all over the country. There is a hell a lot of difference.

    • vyas says:

      //Do you know the difference between private companies and public policies ? It’s perfectly fine for any company to follow their own policies. I don’t mind you start a company and give jobs only to your caste people//

      There is no stupid public/private concept in Jaathi structure. The ultimate goal is to kill or curb competition and provide sustained business for every community. Unlike your stupid urban structure where business will be started for the purpose of killing other businesses. This is why companies go out of business pretty quickly in the West. If it has to stay long term it has to spend billions and billions of dollars.

      //The problem comes when you prevent someone else from starting a company or doing the same job. The Ambanis or Wallmarts may be family run. We will oppose them if they stop someone else from doing the same business because they are not Ambanis. If Reliance stops a new company from starting refineries or telecom operations, we will oppose them. Whether Ambanis do not have a choice or not is entirely their family decision If the children are not competent enough, the company will suffer and they will pay the own price.//

      Oh is it? Why then are the US citizens protesting against Walmart even today? What’s their problem to run their businesses along with Walmart in the same area? They are afraid that Walmart will kill their businesses. Even the US govt has curbed Walmart in many places in the U.S. What’s your problem if a Jaathi does that in a small scale in a village or town. They are after all stopping you from doing business only in a particular area and not everywhere. There is no placed for greed in Jaathi. Business is not an opportunity to make money. It’s an opportunity to serve people and money is only a by-product of the same. Contrast this today’s business which are purely money generating enterprises.

      //No, we are not bothered because it’s a private company. On the other hand, caste affects the public as a whole. Resources are denied, education denied, people are ostracized depending on birth. When you guys argue for a forced division of labour depending on birth, you are not talking of a single family. You are talking of millions of people all over the country. There is a hell a lot of difference.//

      Your whole perception about our caste system is wrong. First of all your notion of mentioning the varna system as division of labor itself is completely wrong. In our society everything was based on dharma. Even a thief would consider his profession a dharma which is why back in those days if they ever drink milk in a house, they won’t steal anything from that place. Nobody denied education to anyone. The fundamental tenets of education was completely different back then. Today education is a separate entity from our lifestyle and both go in parallel. Back then, education wasn’t a separate entity. it was part of your life. For a child born in a farmer’s family, farming is education. Similarly for a Brahmin child, chanting the Vedas is education. But today we are in a chaotic world. A guy studies bio chemistry and goes for a IT job which is completely on the opposite. There is no connection between education and profession. This wasn’t the case back then. Our tradition had a practice where no child was given education until the age of 7. Till that time he/she will just be playing all the time. This is the same strategy that modern educationists are prescribing. We are already starting to see the change now. Children are no longer studying until their 1st grade. They just play at school and come back home. One day when technology advances there will be no schools whatsoever. Education will come back to home on the internet. Not only that, education will be more oriented towards a particular profession right from the beginning than being very generic as what we have today. When more and more advances happen with genetics the importance of birth centrism will start revealing itself.

    • senthil says:

      /** Do you know the difference between private companies and public policies ? It’s perfectly fine for any company to follow their own policies.
      **/

      Do you know the history of private corporates? So you are perfectly find with a corporate to exploit people’s labour and give meagre salary, and enslave people with their own rules and regulations.. You are ok with cut-throat politics that exist in each company.. you are OK with employees sub-ordinate to whims and fancies of higher officials, and they could not oppose them, because they lose their job..

      On the other hand, in jathis, everyone is relative, and there is no exploitation.. people help each other, and do the work out of consensus and colloboration..

      /** The problem comes when you prevent someone else from starting a company or doing the same job.
      **/

      The problem is that your urban india is promoting poisonous capitalistic system, by suppressing, enslaving and exploiting the jathis and their traditional economy..

      /** No, we are not bothered because it’s a private company. On the other hand, caste affects the public as a whole. Resources are denied, education denied, people are ostracized depending on birth.
      **/

      This is yet another example of shifting urban crime upon rural people.. It is your urban colonial indian govt, which denies resources to the poor, and ostracised people by classifying them as SC, ST and other poisonous divisions.. It is your colonial govt, which destroyed the native education system, which was far superior and better than this macaulay education system..

      /** When you guys argue for a forced division of labour depending on birth, you are not talking of a single family.
      **/
      it is mutual division of labour.. it is your urban india, which forces poor people to do menial jobs and pays meagre salary.. Even highly paid employees are subjected to physical and psychological pressure to do jobs beyond their capacity..

      Pls stop repeating the same propoganda..

  69. “You are keeping repeating same propoganda lies again and again.. No one is stopping any caste from becoming engineer or doctors..”

    “a farming jathi should have preference over farming courses and jobs, and leather working jathis should have preference over leather technology and jobs.. the CLRI should be reserved for all leather working communities.. that would have improved their occupational skills”

    See the contradiction in your own statements ?

    • vyas says:

      Where is contradiction? Think before you write something. We are not bothered about people who have left caste professions like you. We are only asking to give occupational reservation for exists castes who still follow their jaathi profession and they obviously make up the majority of the population. Today, majority of the people who are leaving their traditional caste based profession are not doing so because of lack of interest but due to lack of revenue. If someone can earn a sustained living through his own caste profession, why would he choose to move away from it? I’ve seen many people in my company who die to work from their native place. They’ve all left their caste profession just because they could not survive with the kind of income that it was fetching them. If we bring in policies to change this situation, a majority fo the people would return back to their original profession and that’s the way to go going forward.

    • senthil says:

      /** See the contradiction in your own statements ? **/

      what is the contradiction? No one stops any caste from becoming engineer or doctors which are NOT jathi occupations.. and i am demanding, reservation should be based on every jathi’s occupation..

      you need to first answer why your urban india is discriminating people based on case, by thrusting reservations..

      • I’ve already said reservation is wrong and is discriminatory. It exists because politicians exploit the caste dvisions making them vote banks for their benefits.

        The main point is occupation is not a copyright for a particular caste. Nothing stops a person from a particular caste from competing with others and study or work in the occupations you mention.

      • swami says:

        India First,

        For example, if we classify indians as software engineers, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, you are asking, why a software engineer cannot build a bridge. This is oppression? Why a mechanical engineer cant work as a lawyer, why an accountant cant work in a chemical factory. This is suppression.In india we have excelled the art of raising dumb arguments like this.

        More over, the culture that we have now in india is this.We read electronics, but end up in software firm. We read civil enggineering and end up in software industry. The person coming from Bits pilani is also a S/w engg. A person from kuppusamy engg college is also a software engg. Ahhhh. Equality achieved !!!!!!!!.

        The 2 ends called education and occupation is not tied. Its loose and irrelevant in most cases.I wanted to become a doctor. If i didnt get a seat, i will become ECE engineere, if not IT or Computer science.

        In other words, a failed doctor is software engineer. A failed software enggineer is civil engineer. A failed engineer is a diploma holder. A failed diploma holder is a teacher. The whole software industry now hosts mediocre people in terms of aptitude, attitude and skill.

        I do not find fault with this beyond a point because of the poverty situation and we wanted to somehow come out of it. At the same time, now that i have food to eat, i decide to think the next steps and see the bigger picture. I assume you have enough food for the next few days too. So the question is

        –> How can you superimpose this stupid limited mindset of current indians which is a out come of poverty created out of british rule and map it onto a model called jaathi where the education, occupation and lifestyle are closely tied?

        So Stop arguing and also stop using the work caste. Use Jaathi. And Jaathi not equal to caste. Jaathi is tied to a profession because the jaathi itself is a classification based on professions that people did.

      • senthil says:

        /** I’ve already said reservation is wrong and is discriminatory. It exists because politicians exploit the caste dvisions making them vote banks for their benefits.
        **/

        So you have accepted your own urban india to be discriminatory.. you have to first fight your own govt instead of demonising jathis..

        Going by your own standard, i am calling for destruction of urban systems, because it is fundamentally discriminates, and exploitative..

        /** The main point is occupation is not a copyright for a particular caste. Nothing stops a person from a particular caste from competing with others and study or work in the occupations you mention.
        **/

        Every jathi occupation is a copyright for them.. bcoz it is their asset and it is they who had preserved that knowledge for thousands of years.. it is your rapist urban capitalist economy, which had colonised their knowledge and destroyed it.. and now you people unabashedly justify this looting.. and still now your urban corporates are exploiting the knowledge systems of our society..

        Uprooted people like you cannot understand the sense of ownership, and were trained only to be economic and corporate slaves..

  70. ” You definition of families that you are dreaming of will only be brothel houses. In fact such type of cosmopolitan families will result in chaos. It may even end the reproduction cycle completely. With those type of families, in just a few generations human race will be in danger of becoming extinct.”

    Ha ha.. Can you explain what will happen when Inter-caste marriages become the norm and why these families will result in chaos ? And what was that nonsense about reproduction cycle ending ? People will become impotent if they marry someone from other castes ?

    • senthil says:

      /** Can you explain what will happen when Inter-caste marriages become the norm and why these families will result in chaos ?
      **/

      Your urban society is an example of what would happen if inter-caste marriages become the norm.. the resulting society will be an economic, and cultural refugee, without any identity, and totally enslaved by corporates..

      • For argument sake let’s simplify this way: if A’s caste do farming and B’s caste do carpenting, if they marry, what’s the problem ? Their children may chose do either farming or carpenting or any other job. What identity is lost here ?

        “the resulting society will be an economic, and cultural refugee, without any identity, and totally enslaved by corporates..”

        you keep repeating the same non sense. Corporates employ less than 5% of working population.. there is no link between Inter caste marriages and occupation.

      • vyas says:

        //For argument sake let’s simplify this way: if A’s caste do farming and B’s caste do carpenting, if they marry, what’s the problem ? Their children may chose do either farming or carpenting or any other job. What identity is lost here ? //

        Your logic not that simple. It’s not just about profession in inter-caste marriages. It’s about complete change in lifestyle right from the food they eat to the Gods they worship. Every caste maintains its own unique identity for ages and they wish to continue this antiquity. What’s your bloody problem? Still if one wants to get out of this system and marry outside they are more than welcome to do it. The issue is not about that. The main issue is your obsession with inter-caste marriages. This is what we protest against.

  71. “1. you assume that every person in the jathi have no interest to follow their jathi profession.. this is totally wrong..

    2. You assume, jathi occupation as corporate job, and you assume that there is a supervisor with a stick / belt / gun in his hand, and enforces each jathi to do their job..”

    Ask how many lower castes want to do the profession they were forced to do. You say it was all mutual, but why is it that certain low level jobs were always forced on to the lower castes for generations ? The ‘mutual understanding’ does not exist today even if it existed 2000 years ago.

    Second, the caste occupation is itself forced on people belonging to the lower castes and justified as their sins in previous birth. If there was no supervisor within the occupation, the society functioned as a supervisor and outcasted the deviants.

    • vyas says:

      //Ask how many lower castes want to do the profession they were forced to do. You say it was all mutual, but why is it that certain low level jobs were always forced on to the lower castes for generations ? The ‘mutual understanding’ does not exist today even if it existed 2000 years ago.//

      First define what a low level or a high level job means and then we’ll continue the debate. If farming is considered low level then you and me cannot eat. There is nothing low or high about professions. Our society always gave utmost importance to heredity. This led to professions that were carried forward within families for generations. Nobody ever forced anyone to do a particular job at any point of time. In order to safeguard kula professions people were only advised to continue this heritage. Even today we see a substantial amount of people follow their kula professions at least as part time.
      Stop your non-sensical DK arguments about suppression for past 2000 years. It is they who mindlessly claim that the lower castes were suppressed for the past 2000 years without a shred of evidence. The biggest evil which destroyed our society was economic impoverishment. Go and read the book published on World Economics by Angus Madison. We were the number one economy in the World until the 18th century. The British systematically looted us and impoverished us from which we have still not come out.

      • I did not say they were oppressed for 2000 years. The rigid caste system evolved over a period and strengthened later. You can say all you want about mutual occupations, but the truth is different.. I’m no fan of the DK people nor does it mean there was no discrimination.

        There is no doubt that British destroyed economy but even today, the worst hit in the country are the lower castes.

    • swami says:

      Fully quoted out of context. Connecting the wrong dots and forming your own picture. Great !!.

      I feel people with lack of intellectual sharpness to understand the context , framework (to whom things were said and at what timeframe) should never engage in blogging or debate.

      • Shows your superiority complex.. just like any other casteist you think others do not have the ‘intellectual sharpness’ when your ideas are questioned.. You guys have it in your blood of dismissing others.. good luck.. India will progress despite people like you..

      • vyas says:

        //Shows your superiority complex.. just like any other casteist you think others do not have the ‘intellectual sharpness’ when your ideas are questioned.. You guys have it in your blood of dismissing others.. good luck//

        Yeah, just like you urban morons brand casteists as inhuman right?

        //India will progress despite people like you..//

        India will just become another America or Britain without castes. Both those idiots lost their roots long back and are living with artificial identities. You cannot expect the same from us. Jaathi is our birth right and we won’t compromise it at any cost.

      • swami says:

        India First,

        I can clearly see that you are confused and you understand things out of context. If you contemplate, you will see that. Beyond a point, certain things cannot be debated. You have to understand and know by inference.

        Where is my superiority complex in it?

  72. vyas says:

    //People will send the children to government schools when the quality increases like in other countries. It’s only in India that people want to send their children to private schools because of the pathetic state of government schools.//

    Have you ever been to Govt schools in the West? People put their kids in Govt schools over there just because it’s almost free and not because of quality of education. Private schools are far better in terms of quality of education but expensive and adding to this they have proximity rules where the school should be within 5 miles radius from the child’s home. Considering all these factors people have no choice but to put the child in the local Govt school. If the proximity rules are relaxed and if the economics works out, parents will flock to private schools.

    • Of course there are some elite private schools. Those are only exceptions. Only in few states in the US and some countries in Europe has more than 20% population in private schools. The Indian public schools there can’t even be compared to the ones in the west. Quality is not uniformly good in private schools either.

      • swami says:

        You put your kid in public or private school. It doesn’t matter. India is a spoiled secular nation state because the people who man it are like that. Incapable people becoming ruling class just to prove the point that they can rule. Copy pasting laws from outside and importing them and not implementing it properly too.

        The Mccauley school system itself is a bogus. It has now transformed itself into a business by getting donation. Look at its offshoot. Education in india is a cancer now.
        Shame that we need to give thousands or even 1 lack in a good school to get LKG admission. India is a spoiled democracy. Looking at the condition of schools and education, and the amount of money we have to give as donations, and the humiliation that people have to go through to take children into school, lots of indians in US doesnt even want to come to india. Interview for parents to admit child in LKF. What the FUKC.(No **s intentionally).

        Contrast this with education in home itself from your our parents and relatives in a most convinient and conducive atmosphere i.e. within your jaathi. This is the model of jaathi.

        Remember we are just discussing ideas and brainstromng in the blog. It doesnt mean that you have to give up your current job and go back to vedic age tomorrow. Dont worry, senthil will not take away your BMW. Ride it.

  73. “The main issue is your obsession with inter-caste marriages. This is what we protest against.”

    We are not obsessed with inter-caste marriages.. It’s the casteists who even go to the extent of killing people whom we protest. The society should not interfere in the marriage or private lives of people in the name of caste.

    • vyas says:

      //It’s the casteists who even go to the extent of killing people whom we protest. The society should not interfere in the marriage or private lives of people in the name of caste.//

      It is only when you urban morons try to systematically destroy castes that such uproars happen in the society. There is no individual private life in caste systems. Marriages are a private affair only for urban idiots like you. Marriages in traditional societies are a one time affair and a mechanism to create bondage between two families. This results in what we call Vamsa Vruddhi. In individualistic societies people marry to only get higher tax returns. They don’t care about families.

      • The casteists cannot tolerate or accept the fact that lower castes are rising and will soon catch up with them.. They try their level best to keep the status quo and keep the lower castes down as long as possible. They are threatened by the loss of power they and their forefathers have enjoyed. Hence the hate to even kill people.

        “There is no individual private life in caste systems. Marriages are a private affair only for urban idiots like you”
        Marriage is a private affair within 2 families and the caste morons should keep away. The families will take care of the differences.

        “This results in what we call Vamsa Vruddhi.”
        The bigoted idiots cannot understand that vamsa vruddhi will happen irrespective of caste..

  74. In conclusion, the upper castes gain in a rigid caste system while the lower castes lose out. It is natural for the upper caste people here to whitewash the discrimination in caste system and concentrate on the sustainability argument. The lower castes naturally oppose the system which is unfair to them. Hence they are chosing alternative ways to rise in the society. The more the economy develops, the rigidity in caste is going to come down more and more. People like you will become irrelevant then..

    • vyas says:

      //In conclusion, the upper castes gain in a rigid caste system while the lower castes lose out. It is natural for the upper caste people here to whitewash the discrimination in caste system and concentrate on the sustainability argument.//

      You may have the freedom to conclude your own things but that’s not the reality.

      // The lower castes naturally oppose the system which is unfair to them. Hence they are chosing alternative ways to rise in the society. The more the economy develops, the rigidity in caste is going to come down more and more. People like you will become irrelevant then..//

      How many lower castes actually oppose the caste system? In fact many of the caste members don’t want to lose their caste identity. Thanks to reservation. In one way it makes them hold on to it even tightly. As Senthil mentioned Kula Devatha is one thing that binds them to their caste so firmly that they cling on to it even after conversion which is a good sign in my opinion. Many want to prosper by still living in this system, it is the politicians who create all the trouble for them. Some morons like you may probably want to go out of it which is up to you. I believe the opposite of what you said is going to happen. In fact the more the economy flourishes, and the more science matures most of the caste and religious practices are going to make sense. This is what we have seen over the recent past. Half a century ago whatever Hindu practices were condemned are all starting to make sense today. Morons like EVR condemned practices like Yoga, Ayuveda, Siddha Vaidhya etc. All of these have become so intricate in human life that we just cannot imagine to live without the same. The gothra lineage has also been proven scientifically. There is a great future awaiting for Hinduism no doubt, but the only question is how to prevent it from going the Abrahamic way.

    • swami says:

      /*Hence they are chosing alternative ways to rise in the society.*/

      Soon there wont be water to wipe. Lets see how anyone for that matter can raise in the land called india.

      • Oh, you people don’t worry about that. Independent India was facing even more difficult issues. We have survived many and are progressing.. There will be solutions planned and implemented, although delayed by the politics and bureaucracy. They are not the biggest hurdle.

        The biggest hurdle is divisiveness between people in same street, village, district etc. based on caste, language, ethnicity etc. If we manage to reduce that, the politics and other things will automatically improve.. Meanwhile, casteists can live in their dream world and come out after several years to check what’s happening..

      • swami says:

        You are right but to method to unite the divisive people is by a common cultural ethos like what we did in india in past times or implant a national identify like USA did. The USA approach is OK for short time to have the governemtn changed and see some short term (10 to 15 years). But sustainable approach is the jaathi model. No doubt about it.

  75. vyas says:

    //The casteists cannot tolerate or accept the fact that lower castes are rising and will soon catch up with them.. They try their level best to keep the status quo and keep the lower castes down as long as possible. They are threatened by the loss of power they and their forefathers have enjoyed. Hence the hate to even kill people. //

    It is the lower castes that are turning anti-indian lately. They have been systematically programmed to hate the nation and it’s past. There is no doubt that acute poverty reigned in India during British and it affected lowest sections of the society the most. Many artificial famines were created by the British back in those days. A substantial amount of Brahmins too were affected in this famine and took to govt jobs for survival. What can caste do for that? In fact today most of the so called high caste Vaideeha Brahmins are the poorest among the lot. Some of them earn less than 500 rupees a month. They are able to survive only with help from their own wealthy community members and other non Brahmin caste folks. The upper castes are probably afraid because when these programmed lower castes become powerful India will no longer be India. They might even sell it back to the British. This is nothing new. In 1947 EVR even wrote a letter to the British asking them not to leave the country after independence.

    //Marriage is a private affair within 2 families and the caste morons should keep away. The families will take care of the differences.//

    Where does the family get it’s identity from? It comes straight from Jaathi. There is no question of family taking care of differences when no jaathi is involved.

    //The bigoted idiots cannot understand that vamsa vruddhi will happen irrespective of caste..//

    Without caste there will only be Vamsa Naasam and not Vamsa Vruddhi. It is caste that acts as a carrier of Vamsa. Without caste there is no Vamsa. You idiots need to understand this first.

  76. swami says:

    @Poovannan & India First,

    All your arguments are out of context. First come in terms on below points.
    Jaathi is not eqaul to Caste. You need to understand that.
    Indian Model
    ————
    1) Social Arrangement : Varna Ashrama Dharma
    2) People classification : Jaathi
    3) Rules that govern : Dharma (Its just not constitutional laws but “something” that will make human evolve spiritually from where ever he is)
    4) Visionaries : Rishis (enlightened beings) who are outside the social varna/jaathi set up
    5) Properties : Highly Sustainable in terms of resources.
    Stress free.
    Non exploitative.
    Built in “Eco Friendy and Go green”
    Every human has oppurtunity to express key aspects of life like work and spiritual pursuit in their own way.
    Gaurenteed Employment
    Gaurenteed and Focussed Education in his own stream right from childhood
    World leaders in terms of GDP
    Contributed in science, technology, Metalurgy, Yoga etc.
    Expression of happiness
    6) Applicable for : Matured society which has gone beyond poverty and materialistic pursit.
    7) Tension Points : When one person doesnt want to take up his own profession and aspires to become something else.
    8) Mitigaion : Tension never happend in mass because people understood life decisions are concious right from the birth.
    9) Oppression : Not applicable as no one rebelled. Few found oppressed like “Karna” as they aspired something that they are not socially meant for which has to be discussed case by case and cannot be generalized.

    Western Model
    ————-
    1) Social Arrangement : Not formulated yet. Moves from religious dogma to Communist and now capitalist
    2) People Classificatoin : Caste and Race
    3) Rules that govern : Rules of the nation state or of the colonized country
    4) Visionaries : Missionaries and capitalists.
    5) Properties : Pursuit of happyness
    Exploitative “Use” on animals and natural resources forsake of mankind. Bible and quron endoresed.
    Full of stress
    Lack of focused education. Everyone reads everything and becomes nothing.
    Indians contributing a lot in science and technology but the patent is usurped by west
    India lost global stand in terms of GDP
    6) Applicable for : Growing societies that has mateiralistic pursuits
    7) Tension Points : Inherently built in every aspect of society in all aspects of life due to artificial unity among people.
    8) Mitigation : Spend huge amount of money in business to sustain
    Conquer, Convert, destroy difference
    9) Oppression : In all aspects of life in subtle or gross way. But it is done in a politically correct way.

    • swami says:

      Now with that said, you cannot take a term like Jaathi which is of Model A which has certain pre requisutes and map it to Model B (Caste) which has different set up and pre requsite.

      What has happened to india due to invation is that the britishers destroyed the prerequisites by making indians poor. Now that people are poor, you cannot bash Varna/Jaathi. For today, you could follow the western model as we all do. But in terms of vision of becoming a matured sustainable society jaathi varna is our known model and there is no need to reinvent the wheel

  77. /* People will send the children to government schools when the quality increases like in other countries. */

    Why do they expect quality? they shd do with whatever is available. If some want to send their kids to private schools, then similar kind of opportunities should be available for the poor. Which means they should pay more taxes to support the poor. that is true ‘equality of opportunity’.

    • There is already enough tax being paid. We pay Education cess and higher education cess too.. It’s the corrupt governments and the teachers in the public schools who are responsible for the state of our public schools.

      • Doesn’t matter how much tax is paid. Remember teachers also don’t earn like software engineers, but have to live in a world created because of those earning their salary due to currency differences. So let’s make it equal.

  78. poovannan says:

    @vyas you keep repeating that gothra is scientifically proved when all studies have come to an opposite conclusion.Its highly discrminatory and patriarchial when one says that sons alone have the features/gunas of their vamsam/parents totally ignoring the mother and X chromosome which is transmitted to the daughter from father and makes her have more features of father than the son.
    @swami The fight against caste is as old as caste system and not a new phenomenon. history is full of leaders/rishis who tried hard to break the barriers forced upon people on the basis of caste/gender.The utopia of high GDP in the past falls flat on the facts of limited population rise or stagnation in population inspite of early marriage and no family control methods unlike now indicating poor rule resulting in losing millions to diseases and natural calamities

    • vyas says:

      //@vyas you keep repeating that gothra is scientifically proved when all studies have come to an opposite conclusion.Its highly discrminatory and patriarchial when one says that sons alone have the features/gunas of their vamsam/parents totally ignoring the mother and X chromosome which is transmitted to the daughter from father and makes her have more features of father than the son.//

      Show me one place where I linked gothra to gunaas. Gothras are used just to maintain a patrilineal lineage. The Y chromosome gets transmitted from father to son unmodified, provided the gothra system is adhered to. This has been proved scientifically. Period. When talking about gunas, yes the child gathers the gunas from both the father and the mother. Don’t try to twist my arguments.

      //@swami The fight against caste is as old as caste system and not a new phenomenon. history is full of leaders/rishis who tried hard to break the barriers forced upon people on the basis of caste/gender.The utopia of high GDP in the past falls flat on the facts of limited population rise or stagnation in population inspite of early marriage and no family control methods unlike now indicating poor rule resulting in losing millions to diseases and natural calamities//

      You keep repeating this short lifespan nonsense. Provide a statistic on average lifespan during the pre-british era and then come back to discuss. The average lifespan became shortened only after the advent of the British. They curbed the trade and our traditional medicinal practices and eventually destroyed our education system. This led to the extinction of our traditional medicinal system which led to short lifespans eventually. In addition to this our ancient nagara systems were completely destroyed which again led to the advent of new type of diseases.

      On your comment about fight against caste system in the past, yes it was always there just like naasthikaas always existed in our tradition. We even had charvakaas who used to curse the vedas and its ritualistic practices even during the Buddha period. So what? We have been able to overcome all of it and maintain our tradition to a significant extent despite all such hurdles.

      Your comments on GDP is very amateurish. GDP has nothing to do with population. If that were true then China would not have become a global economic power. Our high GDP was mainly due to the way our society was structured and the inherent scientific knowledge (albeit in a different way) we possessed. Don’t jump to conclusions without appropriately researching our history. I’m not saying we were as pure as cow milk in the ancient days. The society degraded even during Mahabharatha period and appropriate actions were taken to correct it. But whatever said and done caste was a social structure back then, today and will be even in the future. There were people like you even in the past. But they were not able to completely come out of the caste structure. All they could do was to create their own jaathi and started to live within it with their own code of life and our society back then encouraged this. This is why we see so many castes today in India. If there was any kind of suppression felt by people at any point of time, that group would simply break out of it’s parent caste and create a new caste structure. This is why we say as a thumb rule that a caste will offshoot itself from it’s parent caste as several miniature castes but will never join with another. Once they offshoot themselves from the root, they start following their own birth based lineage. Such was the importance of birth centrism back in the past. There is no way to maintain a lineage (vamsa) for generations without following birth centrism. There may be other mechanisms but they will eventually fade out.

    • senthil says:

      /** @vyas you keep repeating that gothra is scientifically proved when all studies have come to an opposite conclusion.
      **/

      I have already explained that it is the Y-Chromosome, that has to be considered for gothra.. It is a scientifically proved that the Y-Chromosome is transferred as it is through male lines, all other chromosomes of both the boy and girl represent the different traits of a jathi .. it is precisely for this reason that one has to marry within the same jathi in order to maintain the traits of his jathi.. because both male and female possess the same traits..

      There has been numerous scientific examples today.. the westerners maintain 7 generations of pedigree for pure bred varieties of the animals, like dogs, cows etc.. In brazil, there has been more than one crore indian cows of different varieties (like hallikar, ongole) and they still maintain the purity of those variety and did not mix them..

      So stop your nonsense and discuss based on facts..

      Every jathi collectively maintains a certain characteristics, which had stabilised by their close kinship followed over thousands of years.. as such, a fisherman would have certain characteristics, whereas a brahmin have a different set of characteristics.. only if they marry within their jathi, they can maintain their jathi guna..

      Ofcourse, uprooted people who are just happy with being a economic slave cannot understand these facts..

  79. /* The main point is occupation is not a copyright for a particular caste. Nothing stops a person from a particular caste from competing with others and study or work in the occupations you mention. */

    Yes it is. Every jathi had a proprietary occupation to safeguard and become experts in that. British records also speak of 10 year old girls crafting a very fine muslin which was in demand all over. British even went to the extent of cutting of the weavers’ thumbs to prevent competition to their machine imported clothes.

    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=eZTDOaEmNMsC&pg=PT46&dq=animalizing+cotton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rZbjUfWyJsrprAf-kIGoDw&redir_esc=y

    Read how the technique to “animalize” cotton and a secret that was held by that jAthi, for over 3000 years, was betrayed by a few master dyers who were converted to Christianity by a French Jesuit in 1742.

    • The problem is you people are stuck in the utopian past and don’t want to come out. In today’s technology and innovation, there is nothing that can be ‘secret’ anymore. The proprietary occupation based on caste is not even possible to start, forget implementing it. So much of machinery and technology has made so many manual jobs irrelevant today and is going to continue in the future.

      It’s mind boggling that some even think of using a model existed 1000 years before on a population that is 1000 times more with reduced land mass. Further, we have moved from agrarian age to the Information age with an industrial age in between. There is absolutely no way that the systems you propose can even be implemented today.

      • swami says:

        What you are talking is for today and immedite future. what we are talking is for longer run. let both happen in parallel.

      • /* In today’s technology and innovation, there is nothing that can be ‘secret’ anymore. */

        Is that why patents exist? is that why foreign Yoga gurus, including ex-Indians, trying to patent Yoga postures? is that why China is always indulging in espionage, industrial & otherwise?

        /* There is absolutely no way that the systems you propose can even be implemented today. */

        Without even understanding how the system worked before, without even enabling such a system to survive, on what basis do you pass this judgement that it can’t be implemented?

      • senthil says:

        /** The problem is you people are stuck in the utopian past and don’t want to come out. **/

        If you want to get lost in the modernity and want to live only by raping nature and rural society, you can very well do it.. why should you force us to do the same.. we have every rights to live in traditional society, which your bloody urban india is NOT allowing..

        /** In today’s technology and innovation, there is nothing that can be ‘secret’ anymore. The proprietary occupation based on caste is not even possible to start, forget implementing it
        **/

        Why its NOT possible? Because it is your bloody urban colonial govt which had destroyed it.. and you stooges are exclaiming about that and shamelessly justifying that heinous crime..

        /** Further, we have moved from agrarian age to the Information age with an industrial age in between.
        **/

        You moron should understand that it is NOT “WE”, but the small set of global capitalist, who had enslaved everyone else and exploit them for their living.. pls stop this urban nonsense..

        Still today you people are eating food produced by farmers of traditional society and NOT by your industries..

    • swami says:

      Worlld or even Bharat was never eutopian. No one claimed to be eutopian nor need to aspire to be eutopian.

      Only sustainability is the question. what ever is the model, there will be people who doesnt like it, who wants to break the rules and have their own reasons to justify, in the name of oppression or name of freedom. but ignoring the noise, from a model perspective sustainability is the only question. Varna jaathi already provides that and there is no need to re invent the wheel. Thats the nutshell of the point.

  80. swami says:

    @Poovannan,

    /*The fight against caste is as old as caste system and not a new phenomenon. history is full of leaders/rishis who tried hard to break the barriers forced upon people on the basis of caste/gender.*/

    Rishis and enlightened beings are outside the varna/jaathi model. The social structure is applicable for only humans living in society. When things get more rigid and stupid, in this context, enlightened beings would come and flux the situation a little bit by reinstating that this is just a social arrangement for order and it should not be treated as “being imposed”. Everytime when someone tries to belong to a place where he doesnt belong to, there wlill be tension and the person who tries to be in that wrong place would see this tension as oppression and will scream out in the name of freedom. this is obsolute nonsense.

    Today i know i can never be a pilot at this point of time. If i wanted to be, do you think they will take me? Today i know i cannot get into army. DO you think thats oppression? In today’s context I know where i fit best. In past days, people knew where they fit and there were no mass rebells going out of prefession or jaath. one or two here and there were always there. People who didnt like this arrangement was always there. Those are exceptions and not examples. No oppression in the past.

    It seems to be “oppressing” only when invations happened and the situation becomes survival of fittest. So the arrangement got disturbed and the non survived group saw the survivors as oppressors.

    • poovannan says:

      You are again shooting on the opposite side with comments of i cannot join the army or pilot when the issue is denial of army or pilot for your children on the basis of you not being eligible or found unfit for being a pilot.There exists a significant difference between the two
      Inequality between jobs like teachers and pilots or army men and safaiwallahs will exist and those who failed to be the one who earns more settle for a lesser paying job but its unjust if his/her next generation are denied the jobs which he dreamt or aspired for but couldnt qualify.Trouble is with denial of the opportunity to become a pilot to the son of a teacher or safaiwala

      • vyas says:

        You are looking at the entire issue out of context and keep repeating the same blunder again and again. No one today is asking anybody to stick to their caste professions. Back then when people were living inside jaathi clusters, the child born in that jaathi would naturally and automatically perform the job of the father. In addition since education was not institutionalized but was taught at home, the child did not have any other choice but to stick to jaathi profession. Even then there were few who did not like it and moved away but they were all exceptions. One must also understand that a specific form of knowledge is always carried forward by birth, so it was quiet natural to create a system around it. Above all back then we didn’t have much yanthras (gadgets) to perform complex tasks. The individual was expected to perform it himself with only minimal help from yantras. This required extensive knowledge and skill to perform such complex tasks which was easily acquired through parampara. Even with access to sophisticated technology nobody can dream of building a structure like the Pyramid or our own Thanjai Periya Kovil. Due to distortion of professions in the past thousand years have simply made humans impotent from a skill perspective. Even today a majority of the Brahmins have the ability to by-heart huge volumes of information quiet effortlessly compared to other varnas. This is purely because of the inert skill acquired through parampara. But this will not last long as most of the Brahmins have left their Vaideeha Dharma since past 3 generations. The Jaathi system is the most natural way of living and imparting knowledge. People like you should learn to look at it from a different perspective. Instead of looking at it from a rigidity stand point look at it from other aspects of life and then you’ll understand why rigidity matters and eventually forget that rigidity even exists. The modern education system is slowly moving towards the direction of jaathi based education. The only point is that it’s not openly admitting that. Profession by choice will only lead to chaos. When you can accept your someone as your parent just because you were born to them, there is nothing wrong in accepting birth based professions too. The only thing required is to bring back the honor for every profession.

  81. poovannan says:

    sustainability doesnt come with fixed rigid caste based professions and living styles but understanding to shift professions on realising the lack of qualities and hardwork to perform jobs which require them more and select professions which suit them
    Cloth was a luxury to majority of the people living here few centuries back and we discuss a utopia of all in highly talented communities of lakhs or thousands possessing knowledge and techniques which where stolen by barbarians.
    Patency doesnt exist for most life saving drugs or technologies or is limited for a short period if its proved that several million dollars have been spent on the discovery and a specified time period of exclusivity of production will help them recover the costs.

    • vyas says:

      //Patency doesnt exist for most life saving drugs or technologies or is limited for a short period if its proved that several million dollars have been spent on the discovery and a specified time period of exclusivity of production will help them recover the costs.//

      Utter non-sense. Even today Cipla is being prevented from making low cost AIDS medicines within the country. They’ve been fighting this case with international pharmaceutical companies for years but nothing seems to happen. The Supreme Verdict on Novartis atleast gives some hope but business will eventually will in my opinion. Patents are being used as weapons against third world nations. Have you ever heard about Nammaalvar? Go and read about him. He is fighting against patenting of natural herbs. A few years ago he went to Europe to ban patent rights against Neem. He took enormous efforts to prove that Neem is being used in India for thousands of years for various purposes and eventually was successful in getting the ban on it. But he himself admits that he didn’t have enough money to travel to Europe to get ban similar such patents for other such herbs. There are thousands of herbs for which these developed nations have already got the patents for. These herbs may be uncommon for them but we use them day in and day out. Tomorrow we may even be prevented to use or sell our own herbs in the local market or be forced to pay taxes for it.

    • senthil says:

      /** sustainability doesnt come with fixed rigid caste based professions and living styles but understanding to shift professions on realising the lack of qualities and hardwork to perform jobs which require them more and select professions which suit them
      **/

      Stop this nonsense again..
      Sustainability comes only by stability of each jathi.. every successive generations in a jathi builds on the assets built by their father and grandfather, and has the opportunity to innovate.. that’s why our products were of high quality and welcomed through out the world.. and it is because of this jathi based occupation, the dakha weavers were able to innovate and produce finest muslim cloths..

      you ignorants are busy destroying your own social base, without realising that the world capitalistic economy was controlled by jewish families who operate their business for past 500 years, and marry within themselves.. go and study about rothschild family, rockfeller family, morgon family and many other jewish lineages.. the rothschild family owns the american federal bank for the past 400 years, and it is because of that they were able to consistently enslave the world..

      Today it is they who brought the Oil economy under the control of dollars, and most importantly they control the power to print and issue dollars (NOT american govt).. and who is going to control this american federal bank in future? it is the son of rothschild family..

      and in order to enslave the world economy, they are destroying the social base of every nation.. and they control the entire press, and unleash intense propoganda by employing writers in every language..

      If you have the patience and time, read the jeyamohan’s article on this..
      http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=28464

  82. “Remember teachers also don’t earn like software engineers, but have to live in a world created because of those earning their salary due to currency differences. So let’s make it equal.”

    What nonsense.. Everyone has to earn like Software Engineers ? You can’t compare people doing different jobs.. Teachers working in Government schools earn in multiples of what teachers in private schools earn. Add the perks and benefits, they have absolutely no reason to complain..

  83. “Is that why patents exist? is that why foreign Yoga gurus, including ex-Indians, trying to patent Yoga postures? is that why China is always indulging in espionage, industrial & otherwise?”

    “Utter non-sense. Even today Cipla is being prevented from making low cost AIDS medicines within the country. They’ve been fighting this case with international pharmaceutical companies for years but nothing seems to happen. ”

    Patents exist only for around 15-20 years which includes devlopment period. Usually they exist only for a period of 10-12 years once they reach the market. After that it’s all available at low cost. Generics like Cipla are copy cats who don’t contribute anything to the innovation or research. They enjoy the benefits of someone else’s research.

    Patenting of Indian herbs and other things is an issue which needs to be taken up seriously by the government. But the whole point of patents is to benefit the innovator, not secrecy. The person or company which originated the idea is allowed to earn the money back and then it is freely available to the society. It doesn’t mean anyone can hide the details for 1000s of years.

    • vyas says:

      //Patents exist only for around 15-20 years which includes devlopment period. Usually they exist only for a period of 10-12 years once they reach the market. After that it’s all available at low cost. Generics like Cipla are copy cats who don’t contribute anything to the innovation or research. They enjoy the benefits of someone else’s research.//

      You are one sick of a moron. You don’t even know how the patent system works. It was invented to loot. The very root of patent system evolves from the crave for making money. You say that patent period lasts only for 10-20 years. By this time they make enough money and use that to invent another similar product by modifying the original slightly and then apply for a new patent eventually. In effect the society is always under the clutches of these morons. Patents are another form of feudalism invented to completely loot third world nations.
      What you talk of Cipla is rubbish. What the f**k do you know of them to say that they are not innovative? It has become a habit of you western stooges to demean anything Indian. Cipla was one of the first indigenous pharma company to make India self sufficient in pharmaceuticals. If such companies did not exist, we would have been always begging outside for medicines. In addition to this our traditional medicinal systems are far superior for curing enormous diseases. Morons like you in the past associated these systems with caste and completely destroyed it. Today they are making a come back and challenging Allopathy. It’s a pity that the westerners have started looting these too and have incorporated them silently into their medicinal systems and got patents for the same. Go and read about a company called Aveda which is a US based pharmaceutical company the owner of which came to India in the 1960′s and looted enormous of our secrets and took it back to the US to start this company. This information was later revealed when Rajiv Malhotra (Breaking India fame) had a personal meeting with this guy a few years ago. Later he sold his company to a French man and they still sell cosmetics and other medicines with the looted secrets.

      Finally do you know something? The secret formulas behind most of the patents are always kept secret. Even when the patent period is over nobody can oblige the company to tell those secrets. It’s only that he can no longer make money by using the patent rights. Till now there is no single person on earth who knows the secret formula for preparation of coke. There are some top executives in the company each of whom are given access to only a portion of the preparation procedure. Contrast this to our tradition. We too had secrets and kept them secret for thousands of years but we never patented it. We taught it free to the pious minded and that was his only qualification to learn that secret.

      • poovannan says:

        You talk with an air of allknowing culture which was destroyed by disrupting caste system without worrying about facts or reality.Do you know how many died of plague or cholera or small pox or during delivery in the utopian periods which you imagine and project and the methods available at that time to treat them.
        Do you know how they feared leprosy and sexually transmitted diseases and how many millions perished to them.kindly see the trebling of indian population after independence with the population status in the past 2000 years to get an idea about improvement in lifestyle and lives of majority
        People with patents cry and run to courts on being copied easily by competitors in drugs and useless products like coke exist or sell on just myths like the one told by you

      • vyas says:

        Your stupid arguments on cholera and and plague have been refuted and proven false a many time in this blog itself by Senthil and others. Your arguments on people fearing diseases are all junk again. It happens to almost any society whose fundamentals are destroyed. Yes, India did lose a lot of people to diseases back then but that doesn’t mean you can generalize it. If that was how the society was throughout for thousands of years, then substantiate it with appropriate evidence. Don’t jump to quick conclusions without knowing the truth. In fact these diseases predominantly existed in colonial India when India was pushed to extreme poverty and faced the wrath of several artificial famines created by the British. Such things happened even to the United States during great depression in the 1920′s. Another prime example is Russia during the period of Lenin which lost millions of people in artificially created famines. Even during World war many people died in Ghettos with outbreak of cholera and other diseases. This didn’t mean they were incapable of producing medicines. They were just in the clutches of evil forces and could not help. That’s all. Even today with your so called improved lifestyle thousands die of hunger and disease every year.
        The demographics of India during the colonial period is still a mystery. The British never had a true figure of it and only approximated the figures. Nobody has the accurate data on the population of India during pre-colonial times leave alone 1000 years ago. We could have had more, equal or less people than what we have today. Even if it was higher, i believe it would not have caused a problem back then due to our simple lifestyle and decentralized governance. It is only now that we feel the heat of high population levels and that too only because of the 30% urban people who consume at alarmingly higher rates than the rural people. The irony is that we are creating policies to extend this consumption rate to the 70% rural people too in the name of development.
        One your question about COKE, it’s a world known thing that COKE’s secret is still not out. Even for the sake of argument if I assume what you said is true, there are always other companies that do so if not for coke.

      • senthil says:

        @poovannan,

        /** Do you know how many died of plague or cholera or small pox or during delivery in the utopian periods which you imagine and project and the methods available at that time to treat them.
        **/

        Dont just throw word jargons.. substantiate your claim..

        European populations has perished due to cholera and plague, whereas we cannot find such instance in indian population.. the reason is that we were cow-oriented economy, and all jathis used cow-dung and cow-urine in their house, which had prevented such disease..

        more over it is the jathi oriented aacharams which made people live a healthy & hygienic life.. since jathis lived in separate colonies, they developed resistance for the germs associated with their occupation.. and even if there is any outbreak of disease, it is controlled locally because of this separation..

        Our traditional society was nature oriented healthy and hygienic one.. it is your colonial indian govt, which had destroyed this and made in to slums..

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        /** Yes, India did lose a lot of people to diseases back then but that doesn’t mean you can generalize it
        **/

        No.. india did not lose population by disease.. @poovannan has to provide proofs for the same..

      • “You are one sick of a moron. You don’t even know how the patent system works. It was invented to loot. The very root of patent system evolves from the crave for making money. ”

        It’s you who keep posting rubbish.. If patents are not there, who will pay for all the clinical trials and the research needed to get the drug to the market ? Generally, the drug takes time of 13-14 years to reach the market from the research stage. The initial research may be done by the academics and others but the remaining processes need to be done by someone. Who will do that ? If companies spend the money to do that, it’s natural that they reap the benefits. They are not doing social service. They have to pay people, do clinical trials, get the approval etc. I had been involved in the lifecycle of a medical device and know the pain areas and the money spent on all such things. It’s easy to dismiss people as looters.

        “You say that patent period lasts only for 10-20 years. By this time they make enough money”

        The aim of patent itself is to help the innovator earn money. They are not doing social service.

        “and use that to invent another similar product by modifying the original slightly and then apply for a new patent eventually. In effect the society is always under the clutches of these morons”

        The regulators have become very strict over the years in awarding patents. The Novartis judgement itself is based on these lines..

        “What the f**k do you know of them to say that they are not innovative?”

        I know a lot about Cipla and a certain Hamied who lobbied hard with Indira Gandhi to stop patent laws in India so that medicines can be sold at cheaper prices. Indira obliged and the rest history. Generics dominated the Indian market by reverse engineering the drugs produced in the west using the lack of product patent laws in India. We had only process patents but no product patents. Hence Generic companies were able to reverse engineer the products, produce the molecules in a different way and get the approval.

        “It has become a habit of you western stooges to demean anything Indian.”
        There’s nothing Indian or western here.. If an Indian company’s product is not given patent and used by the generics, I will condemn that also.

        “Cipla was one of the first indigenous pharma company to make India self sufficient in pharmaceuticals. If such companies did not exist, we would have been always begging outside for medicines.”

        While they did a great job w.r.t Aids medicines, most of their other products were actually copy cats of other companies and justified it by saying they have made the medicines affordable in India. While that may be true, they would not have made the products in the first place if the original products were not available which went through research and trials. Besides, you have to find other ways to make the drugs affordable instead of stealing other people’s products.

        “In addition to this our traditional medicinal systems are far superior for curing enormous diseases. It’s a pity that the westerners have started looting these too and have incorporated them silently into their medicinal systems and got patents for the same. ”

        Nothing stops Indian companies from exploring them and getting patents in India itself and marketing them.

        “The secret formulas behind most of the patents are always kept secret. Even when the patent period is over nobody can oblige the company to tell those secrets.”

        Generics have been copying the original drugs for so many years. They don’t need any secrets. They only need to reverse engineer the product to get the molecules.

        “Till now there is no single person on earth who knows the secret formula for preparation of coke”
        Coke and medicines are different. Besides, there are variants to coke available.

        We have digressed too much here. The point is that occupation cannot be a copyright even if some of the products are maintained confidentially..

      • vyas says:

        //It’s you who keep posting rubbish.. If patents are not there, who will pay for all the clinical trials and the research needed to get the drug to the market ? Generally, the drug takes time of 13-14 years to reach the market from the research stage. The initial research may be done by the academics and others but the remaining processes need to be done by someone. Who will do that ? If companies spend the money to do that, it’s natural that they reap the benefits. They are not doing social service. They have to pay people, do clinical trials, get the approval etc.//

        Why do you spend so much for clinical trials? Who decides how much to pay to the scientists? Why are scientists being paid at alarmingly high rates? Why do you create a market competition and eventually make people greedy? If you can find the answer to all these questions you’ll know what I’m saying. The current system is junk and needs to be thrown away. It caters to the needs of only the greedy pharmaceutical companies who want to churn billions of dollars every year. Why are countries like American and UK lobbying with third world nations for businesses? It’s only to bring in money to their economy. Patents are a great way to do that. The laws you mentioned about patents hold true only within a country. All the international patent laws are favorable to these greedy nations and they are always broken or modified when it starts affecting them.

        // I had been involved in the lifecycle of a medical device and know the pain areas and the money spent on all such things. It’s easy to dismiss people as looters.//

        So, just because you a@*sh*@s underwent the pain the common man should suffer is it? The medical system has been abducted by corporates long ago. America is already facing the heat of it. It’s citizens are not able to pay back their medical bills and companies are not able to bear the cost of medical insurance anymore. The medical system is full of junk policies and processes.

        //The aim of patent itself is to help the innovator earn money. They are not doing social service.//

        Only a minuscule portion of it goes to the innovator. A majority goes to the company which he is associated with. Individual innovators are very very few in the world. You are completely trivializing the issue here. The issue is far more involved and complex than we think of.

        //The regulators have become very strict over the years in awarding patents. The Novartis judgement itself is based on these lines..//

        Who are those regulators when it comes to international laws? it’s a jury fully represented by developed nations. You cannot expect justice from them. It will always be favorable to them. The Supreme court verdict is going to backfire for India for sure.

        //I know a lot about Cipla and a certain Hamied who lobbied hard with Indira Gandhi to stop patent laws in India so that medicines can be sold at cheaper prices. Indira obliged and the rest history. Generics dominated the Indian market by reverse engineering the drugs produced in the west using the lack of product patent laws in India. We had only process patents but no product patents. Hence Generic companies were able to reverse engineer the products, produce the molecules in a different way and get the approval.//

        There is nothing wrong in reverse engineering. If you take the analogy, this exactly happened with open source software. Greedy companies like Microsoft made their customers pay heavy prices for their junk software and people were locked without choices. Only after the GNU movement did revolution start and the innovation the industry saw after that was unparalleled. Mind that you and me would not have been able to blog for free like this if not for open source. The same revolution should happen to medicines too. In fact we should create a system to distribute basic medicines free of cost to all. This is how it was some 200 years ago throughout the world and we have to recreate that system now.

        //While they did a great job w.r.t Aids medicines, most of their other products were actually copy cats of other companies and justified it by saying they have made the medicines affordable in India. While that may be true, they would not have made the products in the first place if the original products were not available which went through research and trials. Besides, you have to find other ways to make the drugs affordable instead of stealing other people’s products.//

        When kings accrue enormous wealth without serving people, it is quiet obvious that people will start looting. This is the same thing happening in the field of medicine. If you can provide medicines at affordable costs, nobody is going to take the pains of reverse engineering them. Despite this if someone is able to prove that Cipla violated patent laws, let them sue them and face it legally. When these third rated nations loot our medicinal systems there is nothing wrong in reverse engineering their medicine and finding alternates. In software to prevent reverse engineering we add some special layers which will make reverse engineering a bit complex. Like this even the pharma companies are doing to prevent reverse engineering of their medicines. Do you know how much side effects these cause? This is why I say the whole system is junk. No pharma company in the world works on how to make medicines affordable. They only look for how to loot money out of it. Better learn your facts and argue.

        Medical insurance is another beast that is going to swallow India in the years to come. I don’t know how Indians are going to tackle it.

    • /* Patents exist only for around 15-20 years which includes devlopment period. Usually they exist only for a period of 10-12 years once they reach the market. After that it’s all available at low cost. */

      Follow isteve.blogspot.com to know how Big Pharma pays generic makers extra money, so that the patents dont lapse.

  84. senthil says:

    @poovannan

    /** /*The fight against caste is as old as caste system and not a new phenomenon. history is full of leaders/rishis who tried hard to break the barriers forced upon people on the basis of caste/gender.*/
    **/

    You are wrong.. None of the rishis ever fight against caste.. rather it is the opposite.. they fought against ASURIC systems, which enslaved people.. The fight b/w asuras and devas is b/w the centralised exploitative slavery based society vs decentralised, dharmic, free and self-sustainable society..

    the days of propoganda are over.. so stop repeating that..

  85. senthil says:

    @india first,

    /** It’s you who keep posting rubbish.. If patents are not there, who will pay for all the clinical trials and the research needed to get the drug to the market ?
    **/

    Why are you so concerned with profits of these pharma companies? Do you know most of the pharma companies were owned by few jewish families for generations? and Do you know how they cheat the common people? It is a known secret, how doctors are bribed, and heavily funded to prescribe their drugs, eventhough it is NOT needed..

    There has been alternative medicines for most of the disease.. but the pharma companies had systematically destroyed these native systems, so that people has no other option but only to take their medicine.. So many traditional sidha vaidhyars had been persecuted by the govt, in favor of these pharma companies..

    /** The aim of patent itself is to help the innovator earn money. They are not doing social service. **/

    they earn money by exploiting people.. by making people to consume their products even if they dont need it.. in many cases, these pharma companies introduce disease among population, so that they can earn enormous profit by selling their medicines..

    go and read how the SARS propoganda was made and one particular company made huge profits out of this..

    and you people are shamelessly supporting this global exploitation..

    /** We had only process patents but no product patents. Hence Generic companies were able to reverse engineer the products, produce the molecules in a different way and get the approval.
    **/

    what is the problem? a molecule can be produced in different ways.. why should a company be prevented to produce the same molecule, just because another company has produced it..

    The process oriented patent of india is the best and just one..

    More over, the western pharma companies had stoled enormous knowledge from indian texts.. this was exposed by Rajeev Malhotra with proofs.. these pharma companies extract a particular component from indian ayurvedic medicine, and then patent them, preventing others to produce the same..

    Everyone knows how western pharma companies had attempted to patent even Neem, cow urine etc..

    • Under the jAthi system, doctors were prohibited from making money from their knowledge. They were supposed to live off donations from the tax money. One such eg. is described in Kalki’s ponniyin selvan. After decimating the native doctors, the very same products have been patented by companies forcing people to shell out money out of pocket. So which system is better?

      Moreover, once a new process was identified the knowledge will be shared across desams. Hence if you look up any scientific treatise, you would see reference to the other authors. Hence under the Varna system, there was no need for patents and the knowledge benefited ALL of India. By way of Brahmins who transmitted this knowledge in Sanskrit, across India.

    • Also read “bad samaritans” book. He describes how Switzerland / Netherlands never had any patent regime while they were industrializing and he also talks of how the European nations, stole industrial knowledge freely. Especially Swiss,who legally stole (remember no patents?) lot of engineering stuff from Germans.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/29/business/patents-an-economist-strolls-through-history-and-turns-patent-theory-upside-down.html

      “‘Countries without patent laws have much larger shares of their innovations where patenting would have been a bad idea,” Professor Moser said.”

      “The French inventor Hippolyte Mège-Mouriez, who invented margarine in 1870, blithely showed his invention to two Dutch entrepreneurs. Mr. Mège-Mouriez, having received a patent, felt confident that his idea was protected. The Dutch entrepreneurs took the Frenchman’s ideas, improved on them (keeping their improvements secret) and established a thriving margarine business that in the 20th century merged into the multinational conglomerate Unilever. Mr. Mège-Mouriez died a pauper.”

      How did Hindus manage keep an invention secret? jAthi & threat of outcast(e)ing. Need not again go into how after getting converted to Xnity, the master dyers lost theirs.

      • Look, I’m not here to justify every wrong patent or stealing of ideas.. All I’m saying is that patents are required today to foster innovation and create new medicines.. Less than 0.01 % of compounds tested in labs reach the patients.. Less than 1% of compounds in clinical trials end up in market.. The costs are enormous.. There is no way that Generic companies will survive without someone actually paying the costs of the drug: the people in the countries where patent laws are available. There is no free lunch. Few cases of stealing and misusing cannot be shown as examples of how patents work.

        We need an alternate way to make the medicine affordable instead of copying from others.. As you people mention, we need to invest more in research of traditional medicine and healthcare, no doubt. We need to be proactive in getting the patents of our traditional medicines also. We are not going to achieve this by going against the system but using it ourselves.. We need more Indian companies like ‘Himalaya drugs’ who are researching Ayurveda and bringing out the products in contemporary form.

      • vyas says:

        //There is no free lunch//

        This is a typical capitalist idea. You are simply propagating that. Food and medicine were always provided free in our tradition. The whole problem rests in the system. Just in the name of innovation and royalty you are simply ruining the whole world. A true innovator should never expect royalty just like what Tesla did. Today people don’t innovate to create something new. They innovate just to find ways to make money out of it. You haven’t understood the very fundamentals of capitalists economy. Every capitalist nation needs to churn enormous money to run their economy. They get this in the form of taxes and several other business opportunities. This is why they have converted almost everything into a business opportunity. In their jargon everyone is a consumer and everything is seen from a financial perspective. Today we are forced to pay even for basic amenities like water, which was given to us by nature. In the future they’ll even ask us to pay taxes for breathing air claiming that they are charging only for purifying it, just like they are claiming the same for water.

      • senthil says:

        /** There is no free lunch **/

        Who decides the cost of lunch (food)? Who decides the cost of labour?

        In traditional system, the survival means is de-coupled from economy.. all jathis had access to natural resources.. People were paid in grains as wages.. so a typical labour will be able to earn food for the whole year, from just one season of harvest..

        On the other hand, in urban areas, the industries forced low caste people to work as menial labours, with meagre wages.. so they have to compulsorily work daily to feed their stomach.. this is nothing but economic slavery.. Such slavery do not exist in self-owned entreperuial jathi occupation.. bcoz they decide when to work and how much to produce..

        Secondly, economy was based on Gold and Silver.. So no one was able to manipulate it, and we had the real free market.. The britishers introduced currency notes, where they were able to control the value and supply of currency.. this currency notes can be printed in virtually unlimited quantities.. So while common people put enormous physical hardwork to manufacture things, the British East India Company, just printed currency notes to buy it.. This is Economic Colonisation..

        After 1947, america replaced britishers as new age colonisers.. By controlling Oil Market, and forcing everyone to buy oil ONLY through their dollar, they had enslaved the whole world.. because, in order to buy oil, every nation has to earn dollar to buy oil, and that can be done only by exporting to america.. So people of all other nations has to put enormous hard work, what america does is just to print dollars and buy it..

        This phrase “There is NO Free lunch” itself is a brutal expression of global economic colonisation..

        I can only recall the famous dialogue of Kattabomman.. “The rice grows in our fields, and who the hell are you to give us Free lunch”..

    • “what is the problem? a molecule can be produced in different ways.. why should a company be prevented to produce the same molecule, just because another company has produced it..

      The process oriented patent of india is the best and just one..”

      No problem if you invent the molecule. Someone had spent years on researching a product, spent millions of money on making it usable, did the clinical trials, got the approval from the strictest regulatory agencies. Then the generics copy that once it hits the market. ‘Process’ is a tool for backdoor entry.

      This ‘process’ oriented patents are not allowed in India for any other products than pharmaceuticals. You can’t produce an IPhone exactly in looks and behaviour and claim it is created using a different ‘process’.

      Rest of your post is the usual rhetoric. The current discussion is between Generics and Original producers of the drugs..

      • senthil says:

        /** No problem if you invent the molecule. Someone had spent years on researching a product, spent millions of money on making it usable, did the clinical trials, got the approval from the strictest regulatory agencies. Then the generics copy that once it hits the market. ‘Process’ is a tool for backdoor entry.
        **/

        Strictest Regulator Agencies?? come on man.. dont joke.. the regulatory agencies are NOT independant bodies.. pls read “Silent Spring” written by Rachel Carson, on how she was persecuted by the american establishment for exposing the truth about pesticides..

        Most of the molecules are extracted from plant essence and other ayurvedic medicine.. one particular herb is exported from here for producing medicine for diabetes.. so the compound they extracted is NOT invented but already existing.. how do you account for such stealing of knowledge? What will you say about patenting of Neem and other herbals?

        Secondly just because a pharma company invents a product doesnt mean, people has to be forced to buy that product.. i have many medical rep friends, who would explain me how they even dupe the doctors to sell their product..

        you know yourself, how these pharma companies indulge in fraud, and dis-information to sell
        i had already explained, how these pharma companies had destroyed native medical systems, to sell their product.. they unleash visual marketing propogandas to force people to buy their product.. For eg, the so called “Fight against Germ” is totally destructive to human body, because not all germs cause disease.. with advancment of pro-biotics and discovery of gut-flora, the duplicity of these pharma companies had been exposed..

        They terrorise people by using health card, and make them buy their medicine..

        /** Rest of your post is the usual rhetoric. The current discussion is between Generics and Original producers of the drugs..
        **/

        ofcourse, you would reject any harsh truths.. the current debate is NOT about generics & original producers, but on how corporates exploit people through deceit.. the pharma companies are the biggest corporates who play with people’s health..

  86. senthil says:

    @indiafirst

    /** Nothing stops Indian companies from exploring them and getting patents in India itself and marketing them.**/

    Your colonial indian government had destroyed the traditional medical practitioners of ayurveda and sidha, and unleashed criminal persecution.. it had banned traditional form of teaching sidha and ayurveda, and destroyed the very essense by taking control of it.. as a result, the traditional skills and knowledge systems has been lost, and only junks are taught today..

    the indian govt had been controlled by foreign corporates, and it is rubbish for you to say nothing stops indian companies, when every laws were made in favor of western corporates..

  87. senthil says:

    @indiafirst

    /** The point is that occupation cannot be a copyright even if some of the products are maintained confidentially..
    **/

    It is the people who preserved the skills over thousands of years, the legitimate owners of that occupation.. knowledge is also an asset, and stealing them is also a crime.. bcoz you did not create it nor did you posses it nor did you preserve it.. It is that jathi who has to decide whether to teach you that skill or not..

    The problem here is NOT about other jathis doing profession, but about your colonial indian government destroying the occupations of the jathis.. you are evading this particular aspect..

  88. “Why do you spend so much for clinical trials? Who decides how much to pay to the scientists? Why are scientists being paid at alarmingly high rates? Why do you create a market competition and eventually make people greedy? If you can find the answer to all these questions you’ll know what I’m saying. The current system is junk and needs to be thrown away.”

    These are ideological rhetoric. Nothing to do with the actual discussion of Generics against Original product companies.

    “Who are those regulators when it comes to international laws? it’s a jury fully represented by developed nations. You cannot expect justice from them. It will always be favorable to them.”

    Patents are dealt by individual conuntries, not by international laws. We did not have any product patents in pharma from 1991 to 2005.

    “Only a minuscule portion of it goes to the innovator. A majority goes to the company which he is associated with. Individual innovators are very very few in the world.”

    You have no idea how the Pharma industry works. The ‘innovator’ in most cases is the company which invested in people and money for doing the research.

    “There is nothing wrong in reverse engineering. If you take the analogy, this exactly happened with open source software. Greedy companies like Microsoft made their customers pay heavy prices for their junk software and people were locked without choices.Only after the GNU movement did revolution start and the innovation the industry saw after that was unparalleled.Mind that you and me would not have been able to blog for free like this if not for open source.”

    Analogy is Wrong. The open source Industry did not ‘copy’ windows or reverse engneered Microsoft!! They developed their own products and competed. That’s NOT what the Generics are doing .They are copying. Plain and simple.

    “Despite this if someone is able to prove that Cipla violated patent laws, let them sue them and face it legally. ”

    The whole point is there is NO patent law in India for Pharma products till 2005. Cipla could not sell its products anywhere in the west but not in India.

    “When these third rated nations loot our medicinal systems there is nothing wrong in reverse engineering their medicine and finding alternates.”

    Then accept that what’s going on is ‘authorized copying’ instead of acting as though it doesn’t happen.

    • vyas says:

      //Analogy is Wrong. The open source Industry did not ‘copy’ windows or reverse engneered Microsoft!! They developed their own products and competed. That’s NOT what the Generics are doing .They are copying. Plain and simple.//

      Don’t try to argue with me. I’ve been in the software industry for more than a decade and have done tons of digital forensics myself. Hackers have almost completed disassembled Windows. Google does tons of advanced reverse engineering of MS Office secretly or else their google docs would not be able to open all microsoft office documents. Reverse engineering a product is not necessarily done for copying it. It’s actually done more to understand it. This is what companies are doing and in turn inventing low cost alternatives. The pharma companies have only patented the methods of preparing the medicine not the components of it.

      //You have no idea how the Pharma industry works. The ‘innovator’ in most cases is the company which invested in people and money for doing the research.//

      Yeah that’s the root cause. The companies are formed to loot and make profit. This entire system sits around money, money and money. That’s all. It is virus that needs to be thrown out.

      //Then accept that what’s going on is ‘authorized copying’ instead of acting as though it doesn’t happen.//

      This is not copying. This is understanding the process as I described. The pharma companies are doing it as a routine. Indian companies should be given the freedom to manage it’s own medicinal systems internally. The international companies do not have any authority what we sell or produce here.

      I think we have argued enough. You are repeating the same old stupid arguments without any shred of evidence. Lastly I’ll say only one thing. We need an open source movement for medicine just like what we have in software. All these insurance companies should be shut down. They are adding more fuel to fire. Medicine should be made a birth right in the constitution and should be made free for all barring just a few exceptional ones.

      • “Hackers have almost completed disassembled Windows. Google does tons of advanced reverse engineering of MS Office secretly or else their google docs would not be able to open all microsoft office documents.”

        Ha ha.. you have a decade experience in IT and say hackers and Google docs as example of open source ? Good. May be you should know about what open source is.. heard of Linux, Firefox etc. ?

        “Reverse engineering a product is not necessarily done for copying it. It’s actually done more to understand it. This is what companies are doing and in turn inventing low cost alternatives. ”

        While this may be true in general, the case with Generic companies is completely different..

        “The pharma companies have only patented the methods of preparing the medicine not the components of it.”

        Wrong.. The patent can be for the compounds, product or the process. In most cases, it is the compound which is patented.. It is only India which allows the process patents..

        “This is not copying. This is understanding the process as I described. The pharma companies are doing it as a routine. ”

        Ha ha.. Even Cipla or Ranbaxy don’t claim that. They agree that they are copying but justify it by saying low costs..

        “Indian companies should be given the freedom to manage it’s own medicinal systems internally. The international companies do not have any authority what we sell or produce here.”

        They did not have the right to question it till 2005. But that does not mean that the generics were blatantly copying the products. In fact, they even give the copied products similar names..

        “I think we have argued enough. You are repeating the same old stupid arguments without any shred of evidence.”

        Whatever I argued is true. It’s you who are ignorant on Pharma Industry and Patents..

        “We need an open source movement for medicine just like what we have in software.”
        Good luck.. If you think Software’s open source can be replicated in Pharma, it’s a waste of time to continue..

      • vyas says:

        //Ha ha.. you have a decade experience in IT and say hackers and Google docs as example of open source ? Good. May be you should know about what open source is.. heard of Linux, Firefox etc. ?//

        Looks like you’ll never use your brain before answering a question. I could not have existed in the industry without knowing Linux/Firefox. I purposefully did not quote them because they are prime examples of software written from scratch. I used google docs and hackers for explaining how reverse engineering another product was done to understand the functions of it and use it in a different way in some other product. Without understanding this simple logic you are pounding upon me. How funny.

        //Ha ha.. Even Cipla or Ranbaxy don’t claim that. They agree that they are copying but justify it by saying low costs..//

        Cipla can never make that claim openly. if they do, they’d be sued. No fool would do that.

        //Whatever I argued is true. It’s you who are ignorant on Pharma Industry and Patents..//

        All your arguments are bogus. You still haven’t responded to arguments of Senthil and other folks. It’s very clear that you know nothing and doing just kutharka.

        //Good luck.. If you think Software’s open source can be replicated in Pharma, it’s a waste of time to continue..//

        Oh Yeah. That’s because the greedy pharma companies, scientists, medical agencies and reps always want to keep things under their control and make money out of it. They have created an entire empire out of it. Unless we free the medical system from the clutches of these b****s there will be no end to it. I strongly feel that you are one among these morons which is why you get terrified when someone talks about open sourcing medicine.
        The same junk arguments that you are making were made by software giants when Richard Stallman first talked about open source software. Almost every software company pounded upon him and cornered him. Some even sued him. But he fought it with great strength and vigor and finally succeeded. Many people think Linux started the open source movement which is wrong. In fact Linus copied hell a lot of ideas from GNU stack without acknowledging the author. Richard started the open source movement way back in the 80′s, whereas Linux evolved only in the 90′s. Today we’ve reached a point where everyone agrees that internet would not have been what it is right now without open source movement. Even Microsoft’s Steve Ballmer once agreed to this halfheartedly. We badly need this movement for medicine. There are several ways to make money for living, but these medical morons look for making money to satisfy their greed which needs to be curbed. As someone pointed out medicine and food was always given free in our tradition. It was considered a sin to make money out of these two fields. Doctors back in those days earned their living only from donations offered by the public. Those professions were considered as services and never used for money making. It’s only after these capitalist morons came in that everything became money oriented.

      • swami says:

        @Vyas,

        Thats why i say, india first quotes things out of context.

  89. poovannan says:

    @friends kindly do some maths-The indian population has trebled and is about become 4 times within 65 years of independence inspite of all attempts to control population by family planning methods restricting the number of childen in each family/delayed marriage age/womens education/job etc .kindly compare it with the thousands of years just before that where existed no family planninhg methods.
    If medical facilities where atleast the same as of now we would have doubled every ten years.we reach single digits within a short period if we go in that manner.
    The populations inspite of high fertility rates unlike now was growing at a snail place as death rate was highin the past 1000s of years and natural calamities too wiped out millions

    • senthil says:

      /** If medical facilities where atleast the same as of now we would have doubled every ten years.we reach single digits within a short period if we go in that manner.
      **/

      if medical facilities were so advanced, why is drastic increase in diseases?

      The allopathy medicines are highly injurious, and the disease instantly develops resistance to it.. the paracetamol is a best example..

      /** The indian population has trebled and is about become 4 times within 65 years of independence inspite of all attempts to control population by family planning methods restricting the number of childen in each family/delayed marriage age/womens education/job etc
      **/

      I had already explained it to you.. why do you worry about population.. people can look after themselves, produce their own food and adjust themselves.. Every village is self-sustaibale.. if population increases, additional people go and create new villages and again produce food..

      It is your urban india, for which population is a problem.. bcoz, everything is sourced from outside, and hence increase in population leads to scarcity of food..

      • poovannan says:

        @senthil reply is for the stagnant population eras which you consider as utopias.The highest number of brahmins,gounders,dalits are now and not in 1000 AD or 1000BC.
        I have no issue with people following siddha or ayurvedha but why try to prevent those who want to try allopathy.I share your concerns of urbanisation,increased usage of medicines,excessive dependance on machines but differ on fixed role for jathis which will never be accepted by those who had no chance to become leaders or soldiers or artists or where boycottted

      • senthil says:

        /** The highest number of brahmins,gounders,dalits are now and not in 1000 AD or 1000BC.
        I have no issue with people following siddha or ayurvedha but why try to prevent those who want to try allopathy
        **/

        Please tell me who is preventing people from trying allopathy.. you are under own assumption and forming opinions based on it..

        actually it is the pharma companies, which had persecuted all alternative medical practitioners and destroyed traditional gurukula traditions of such alternative medical system..

        pls remember, that 1000 AD or 1000 BC is dark age ONLY for europeans.. NOT for us.. we were far advanced than rest of the world..

    • Surya Ramachandran says:

      @senthil

      I do not think poovannan is talking about the future, he is talking about the past. Please tell me what, in your opinion would have been the birth_rate, death_rate and medical facilities in the past from 500 BC to 1700 AD. If possible please give population estimates too as a function of time – atleast at on a couple of points in history – all in your opinion.

      • senthil says:

        /** Please tell me what, in your opinion would have been the birth_rate, death_rate and medical facilities in the past from 500 BC to 1700 AD
        **/

        i think there is no authentic study done on this subject.. there are many factors to be considered..

        1. More than one-third of population perished in the famines created by britishers.. there had been more than 18 famines that occured in past two hundred years alone.. Considering this, we should multiply the population at 1930s, in to 3 to 4 times..

        2. The continuos invasion by muslim invaders, where our population was massacred cosistently through wars.. We need to calculate that loss..

        2. The varna society lived highly restricted life and did not reproduce massively on those days.. in my research i find that only 3 to 4 children were beogotten by varna society.. on the other hand, the tribal societies, multiplied rapidly.. There is a historic reference, where if there are 10 vellalar families in a village, there are 100 tribal families..

        The poverty, and the degradation of the value system, made these highly civilised varna society to lose their virtues and started multiplying like tribal groups in the past 50 to 100 years..

        3. Population on those days adjusted based on available local resources.. whereas today, the population rise is highly artificial, and supported by resources exploited using fossil fuels.. such artificial rise is highly unsustainable, and people started to control population..
        ie, earlier population was automatically balanced based on nature, whereas today it is forcefully controlled..

        Medical Facilities:
        ———————-
        The medical facilities should not be seen in present context.. rather we should see it comprehensively.. what was the quality of food, soil, airl, water on those days? There was extensive alternate medical system till 100 years before, but rapidly destroyed today.. There was mention of surgey & caesarian done by barbers in our community (who is also called maruthuvans).. In ancient days, when chandragupta’s pregnant wife by mistake eats poisoned food, chanakya immediately performs caesarian and saves the child “Bindusara”..

        So we had an very good medical system here, coupled with hygienic life style.. that is the reason, there has been no major endemic ever reported in our history..

        On the other hand, europe did not have these knowledge, and for them medieval period is dark age..

        Since today we study from european perspective, we also believe that our medieval age is also dark period, which is wrong..

  90. poovannan says:

    what has the govt done to prevent jathis from carrying there activities except some feeble attempts to provide help to those who wanted to break free of the caste when it came to occupations and choosing partners
    There always existed people who wanted to break free of the varnas imposed on them but where brutally silenced except a few who where successful and created their own kingdoms and clans.The days of caste panchayats excomminicating people are over and its time the caste lovers think of designing ways to preserve the caste system without murders and excommunication as the opponents have reached a critical mass.The untouched areas of governance/democracy which where under the direct rule of traditional king considered as avatar of vishnu is there in nepal and their conditions are there for all to see. The people revolted violently against the rigid caste system and the traditional system and fortunately courtesy reservation and few considerate leaders in India we are having a fairly peaceful transition
    There still exists very rigid caste system in nepal and i have worked with gorkhas both the upper castes and lower castes and the anger of the lower castes over there is far higher what one sees here as in India the anger has been somewhat blunted by reservation and increase in opportunities
    Kindly talk to a gorkha to know about gorkhas who have reacted violently to throw away the traditional jaathi based beautiful life style

    • senthil says:

      /** what has the govt done to prevent jathis from carrying there activities except some feeble attempts to provide help to those who wanted to break free of the caste when it came to occupations and choosing partners
      **/

      I have explained you many times on how the indian government destroyed the traditional administration.. you are either unable to understand or dont want to accept that..

      The traditional society was designed for traditional administrative system, which is based on ethnic dhesams.. For eg, take the case of western ganga administration (present day karnataka, where gowdas were the rulers)..
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Ganga_administration

      The area was divided in to nadus, and then grama .. all these divisions were based on natural catchment areas, and geography.. the administration was localised.. every jathi occupation was supported by this local administrative system .. bcoz the village chief is also a local person who lives in the same village.. The traditional village panchayats would maintain reserve grains so that people are fed during drought situation..

      All these were destroyed by the colonial indian government, which started removing these traditional chiefs and appointing its GUmasthas, who were NOT native to the region..

    • senthil says:

      /** The people revolted violently against the rigid caste system and the traditional system and fortunately courtesy reservation and few considerate leaders in India we are having a fairly peaceful transition
      **/

      You people live in this cinematic propoganda.. show me how many people revolted against caste system? I have proved you that every jathi wanted to preserve their jathi, including the so called dalits.. even ambedkar himself was lobbying for his own jathi (Mahar regiment)..

      Pls stop this nonsense.. Come down to reality..

      It is NOT people who revolted.. it is your colonial india, who had pitted one jathi against other.. read this blog, on how congress started the first ever caste clash in south tamilnadu..


      http://pasumponayya.blogspot.in/search/label/%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%9C%E0%AF%8D%20%E0%AE%A8%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%9F%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D

      The days of propoganda are over.. today even the parayar community had categorily said that they dont want to marry from other dalit community.. so stop this old propoganda, which has been exposed today..

  91. senthil says:

    When britishers colonised india, they started stealing knowledge from different jathis, because they could not compete with these jathis on quality.. This has been explained very well in dharampal’s books, and also in another book “Decolonising History” by claude arpis..

    Then by controlling the market, they manipulated prices in favor of them, and economically deprived the native people..

    The modus operandi is same.. steal the knowledge, and destroy jathis to eliminate competition to the corporates.. this is continuing till today.. the only difference is that after 1947, the brown sahibs of the urban centers took over this colonisation process.. because, they worked for corporates, and if they have to survive, the corporates have to survive, and if corporates has to survive, they need markets to sell their products, and that market is created by destroying local economy, and making people dependant on them..

    I will quote few things here..

    1. More than 1 lakh varieties of paddy were stolen from our people.. these varieties were preserved in IRRI (International Rice Research Institute) sponsored by the rockefeller foundation, but destroyed in india .. each variety was specific to particular region, and was preserved by the farming jathi of that area.. in the name of green revolution, the govt made those farmers to use hybrid seeds, and over period of time, the technology and skill to preserve their native varieties were lost.. as a result, today the entire farming community has to depend upon govt for seeds.. and this govt was controlled by corporates, and GM companies like Monsonto has been supplying non-reproducible seeds..

    (and who is this monsonto? the same family group of rockfeller and rothschild..)

    The main reason for introducing hybrid rice varieties is to make fertiliser & pesticide industry profitable.. bcoz hybrid varieties can give yield only when fertilisers applied, whereas native varieties do not need that..

    2. The native cow breeds of india was sytematically destroyed to promote animal feed industry.. the native varieties do not eat the artificial animal feeds, and hence the feed companies lobbied govt to aritificially inseminate native varieties with semen of foreign varieites and also to promote hybrid cows..

    There were more than 100 varieties of native breeds each specific to a region.. all of them are at the verge of extinction.. This native varieties play an important role in fertilising the farm land.. in traditional social setup, the system of breeding was healthy and done based on local needs.. however, the veterinary department had destroyed this setup through artificial insemination..

    the vechur cow of kerala is totally lost except for few cows..

    Today we had lost our native genetic stock, and has been effectively colonised..

    3. The metallurgy was practiced by the viswakarma jathi, and they had been deprived of their profession..

    4. the nadars were experts in producing palm sugars, which was our traditional and healthy food.. the govt by banning toddy and cutting down palm trees, had impoverished that community.. also by promoting sugarcane plantation and white chemical sugar at artificially kept low prices, the market for these palm sugar has been colonised..
    The skills associated with manufacturing palm products are all lost..

    5. The Chetty community who produced Cold Pressed Oil had been decimated by corporate companies by artificially lowering prices by mixing palmolein (NOT palm oil)..

    The urban people, who are themselves uprooted, were blindly supporting this propoganda, without realising it is they who were most affected by destruction of jathis.. let me list down few facts..

    1. Today people have no other option but to eat the hybrid varieties grown with full of pesticides and fertilisers and it has no nutritional value.. this had reduced the general health of the population..

    2. The edible refined oils produced by corporate companies are mostly unhealthy and adulterated.. this is single most reason for wide spread heart problem, blood pressure, diabetes.. whereas traditionally oil was produced in cold-pressed method, without heating it.. the refined oils are heated multiple times to very high temperatures, and this alters the very composition of the oil..

    3. White sugar produced in india are all only 80% pure.. it has other harmful chemicals like sulphur etc.. in europe, there are strict regulations where sugar has to be refined to 99% purity.. white sugar is another important reason for diabetes and obesity.. traditionally made palm sugar and palm candy were healthy and mineral rich..

    4. The rock salt produced by salt making jathi is now replaced with sea salt.. even that sea salt was made as free flowing by adding chemicals, and controlled by corporates.. the natural salt contains multiple minerals, whereas sea salt contains just sodium chloride..

    5. The Milk which the urban people consume is produced from Hybrid Cows, which produces A1 Milk.. the book “devil in the Milk” details on how A1 milk causes diabetes, heart problem, rheumatism etc.. specific protein found in A1 milk causes auto-immune disease in humans..
    whereas, all indian varieties have only A2 Milk, which is healthy and good for health..

    Even worse is the Pocketed Skimmed milk, which urban people are condemned to drink.. the skimmed milk is just something white in substance, and cannot be considered equal to fresh milk..

    6. The Broiler chicken, that the urban people eat are grown fully with chemicals, and hormones.. and it has devastating effects on health, particularly the children’s health..

    Milk and Broiler chicken are two major reason why girls attain puberty too early (earlier, the average puberty age is 15-17.. now, it has come down to 9)..

    Food plays an important role in health of the family and the nation.. as long as traditional jathis manufactured these food, it were healthy.. when corporates take over, it means, people are totally enslaved..

    The urban Indians and those who advocate destruction of jathi should realise this grave danger.. by destroying jathi, we are making ourselves slaves to the corporates, and it is foolish to expect that corporates will do good to us..

  92. swami says:

    /*We need more Indian companies like ‘Himalaya drugs’ who are researching Ayurveda and bringing out the products in contemporary form.*/

    I do agree with india first in this point that in todays world if we dont patent our iedas we will be dead soon. if not us, the west will start using and patenting the same and there is no point in fighting with them later.

    we need to be proactive. it will be foolish to assume that others will not copy. we are not living in vedic life. today is the core of asuric life. not getting patents is just tamas. defending that we never patented in vedic time is also tamas. we can talk, brainstorm how vedic life was. at the same time we need to live today so should act according to present situations.

  93. /* We need more Indian companies like ‘Himalaya drugs’ who are researching Ayurveda and bringing out the products in contemporary form. */

    Looks like you haven’t understood even the basics of Varna system. What we need is research done only for research purposes only. Not for marketing by Himalaya Or Ranbaxy, as they both are working from the same template. That they are making money out of people’s misery.

    • Waste of time to argue with you since you are stuck in 500 BC. Primary research is always done for research purposes only. Taking care of all the other processes cannot be done by the Government since it requires lot of infrastructure and people. The Pharma companies themselves do not do everything. They also outsource many of them. It’s a complex process. Just read about the steps involved in bringing a drug from research to the market. You’ll get an idea.

      The reason I gave Himalaya drugs as the example is that they research Ayurveda and our traditional medicines. But the validation is done in the same way for allopathy. Otherwise, no one is going to believe that their drugs are good enough.

      As I have been saying, you don’t gain anything by dreaming a perfect world. You live today and have to solve today’s problems. Most of what you people suggest is practically impossible to even start. Instead of dreaming some new systems, we need to find ways to live in the current system and get the maximum benefit out of it.

  94. “//There is no free lunch//

    This is a typical capitalist idea. You are simply propagating that. Food and medicine were always provided free in our tradition. ”

    This is another propaganda by the communists.. Food grains were given to the labour as wages, not for FREE.. In fact, ‘free’ culture was never revered in our culture. Read how Krishna taught a lesson to Dharma by taking him to Mahabali who explained how free food is not a symbol of mighty empire but making people slaves to the government.

    Medicine is a different case. Today’s diseases are totally different than that were faced in ancient times. Lot of research is required. That’s why I say Indian companies should invest more in doing research in Ayurveda, Siddha etc. and obtaining patents for them instead of merely copying others and sell them at low prices.

    “Cipla can never make that claim openly. if they do, they’d be sued. No fool would do that.’
    You have no idea.. The fact is no one can sue them in India or Africa.

    An example: http://m.npr.org/news/Business/120254536

    “What does Antiflu do?

    Dr. YUSUF HAMIED (Chairman, Cipla): Our Antiflu is identical clone to Tamiflu. And our Antiflu is the only generic drug of its kind approved by the WHO.

    INSKEEP: How do you go about developing a clone of someone else’s drug?

    Dr. HAMIED: Well, we study the chemistry of the drug and start producing the drug first in the laboratory, and then scale it out. It’s a three to five year cycle to reverse engineer a drug and make an identical clone. It’s not so easy. And in this particular case we started this work in 2005, when there was a scare for avian flu.”

    • Besides, the meaning of ‘no free lunch’ is not ‘no free food’. It means you don’t get anything without someone paying the price for it.

      • vyas says:

        That price is not money (common currency) my dear. Food was a birth right back then. Our villages ensured that no one went hungry at any point of time. Everybody did their job as per their dharma and had the right to their share of the food. Food and medicine were never a commodity back then. Here in this tradition we have a norm whereby you have to offer free food to certain class of people like sanyasis and yathrigans. Senthil has already posted tons of comments about it. I don’t want to keep repeating it. Go and read his comments and enlighten yourself.

      • senthil says:

        /** Besides, the meaning of ‘no free lunch’ is not ‘no free food’. It means you don’t get anything without someone paying the price for it.
        **/

        i know this.. the question is that how is the price determined? and who decides the price?

        In traditional jathi based systems, both the farmers and the laboures work in the fields during harvest season, and the labourers earn wages in grains.. the amount of grain is based on effort put, and NOT based on cheap labour..

        In one harvest season, a landless labour will earn enough grains for the whole year, and hence they secure their own food.. They are NOT forced to compulsorily work daily, and there is no fixed timings..

        On the other hand, the daily labours of industries are paid meagre salaries, based on Cheap labour.. the industrial and capitalistic economy made human labour in to a cheap commodity, and doesnt care about welfare of the labour.. this is nothing but slavery, and you are NOT willing to discuss this..

    • vyas says:

      You seem to keep repeating the same blunder again. All Cipla is trying to do is reverse engineer the drug and come up with their own composition which is not equivalent to the original. Moreover something is good or bad depends entirely upon the country in which that thing is being carried out. As for as India is concerned, the question is about how to scale our medicines to our large population. The current system is completely junk and needs to be thrown out. It focuses only on making money by the capitalist minds. It will never serve the people. It’s aim is to make everyone part of the labor class which is a communist idea. We should concentrate on developing our own traditional medicinal systems and keep it completely non-commercialized. This is the only way to save the medical field.

  95. ganapathy says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

    Many countries in the developing world have experienced rapid population growth over the past century. China’s population rose from approximately 430 million in 1850 to 580 million in 1953,[56] and now stands at over 1.3 billion. The population of the Indian subcontinent, which stood at about 125 million in 1750, reached 389 million in 1941;[57] today, India and its surrounding countries are home to about 1.6 billion people.[58] The population of Java increased from about five million in 1815 to more than 130 million in the early 21st century.[59] Mexico’s population grew from 13.6 million in 1900 to about 112 million in 2010.[60][61] Between the 1920s and 2000s, Kenya’s population grew from 2.9 million to 37 million.[62]

    battle of plassey under robert clive was fought in 1757 which paved the way for british rule slowly in the indian subcontinent taking around a 100 years and blaming british for drastic reduction in population is not true.

    For all your antipathy and anger,allopathy has played a very major role in improving the medical management and treatment of diseases.The stories of caessarean sections exist across all parts of the world where children where saved killing the mother and it doesnt require any special skill.
    Pencillin ,chloroform,vaccines where the three which catapulted allopathy miles above the rest and before discovery of pencillin there was not much of a difference between various streams of medicine.Blind beleif in a glorious past of how Indians knew everything and lost them to others will do no good

  96. senthil says:

    /** The reason I gave Himalaya drugs as the example is that they research Ayurveda and our traditional medicines. But the validation is done in the same way for allopathy. Otherwise, no one is going to believe that their drugs are good enough.
    **/

    The Himalaya Drugs also do lot of research using ayurvedic products.. but they dont claim exclusive product patents..

    The western pharma companies steal the knowledge from indian ayurvedic texts, but they hide the source and get product patents.. This itself is an unethical one..

    I have few questions..

    1. When the pharma company spends billions of dollars on researching a particular product, and if that product have many side effects, how can we expect they will publish this truth, after spending so much amount? The Drug approval agency only validates the research published by the pharma companies, and and it do not do any independant research to confirm that claim?

    Infact, most of the pharma companies exactly do this.. manipulate research results, so that their product is approved and they could recover their costs.. So this capitalistic model is by its own design, exploitative on the people.. ie, it doesnt care about people’s health, but only about its own profits..

    Most allopathic medicines have so many known side effects (published by that company) and unknown sideeffects (NOT published)..

    The recent Bt-Cotton issue is an example of how scientific research was twisted/faked for propoganda purposes..

    2. I have pointed to you the book “Silent Spring” by Rachel Carson.. in 1950s, the pesticide companies had been lobbying government for sale of pesticides for various purposes.. Rachel Carson through her painstaking independant research for two years found that pesticides were most harmful to humans, and substantiated with many scientific tests and proofs.. and most of the scientists, unleashed a propoganda war on her, even projecting her as mentally unstable.. She has exposed how these pesticide companies had manipulated Government Approval agencies, to get their pesticide product approved..

    3. Have you ever analysed who are the entities that owns the major pharma companies? You will find they belong to the same Rothschild and Rockefeller families, who control the federal bank and american govt.. the different govt agencies were controlled by these powerful families to get what they want.. Can you deny this?

    • “The Himalaya Drugs also do lot of research using ayurvedic products.. but they dont claim exclusive product patents..”

      They don’t do it in India since Ayurveda is ancient and followed here. But they have started getting patents in the West, which is a good thing.

      “1. When the pharma company spends billions of dollars on researching a particular product, and if that product have many side effects, how can we expect they will publish this truth, after spending so much amount?’

      The research happens over multiple phases by testing different compounds. Side effects are documented with the general assumption that every drug has a side effect. The decision whether the benefits outweigh the side effects is decided by the regulator. There has been many cases of rejection and withdrawals of drugs.

      “The Drug approval agency only validates the research published by the pharma companies, and and it do not do any independant research to confirm that claim?’

      “Most allopathic medicines have so many known side effects (published by that company) and unknown sideeffects (NOT published)..

      The drug is monitored after it reaches the market also and a feedback system is maintained to get the inputs from patients and doctors on the side effects which were not seen in the clinical trials. This is the only way to get to know the ‘unknown’ side effects. There has been many drugs that have been recalled amidst such feedback. That includes the drugs by the big pharma companies too..

      We can question how effective the system is, but we never have the ‘perfect system’ anywhere.. It is always a work in progress..

      “Have you ever analysed who are the entities that owns the major pharma companies? You will find they belong to the same Rothschild and Rockefeller families, who control the federal bank and american govt.. the different govt agencies were controlled by these powerful families to get what they want.. Can you deny this?”

      Well, they did have much influence at the beginning of the industry, but you seem to form your opinion on them based on some pro-Nazi materials in the Internet, especially about the Rothschilds.. It’s true that historically many jews gained financial status in Europe using the strict usury laws in Christianity and Islam. Their activities were viewed with suspicion when they made so much money. But if you read the detailed history, it will be clear that they made much money by reacting to wars and maintaining a network which the Nazis used for their propaganda..

      We are digressing.. what matters is we need more Indian companies to research Indian medical systems.. not forming some conspiracy theories..

    • senthil says:

      /** They don’t do it in India since Ayurveda is ancient and followed here. But they have started getting patents in the West, which is a good thing.
      **/

      so you are supporting a patent system that is exploitative.. you feel, even patenting an ancient ayurvedic medicine is right.. doesnt make any sense man..

      /** The research happens over multiple phases by testing different compounds. Side effects are documented with the general assumption that every drug has a side effect.
      **/

      What is the assurity that all side-effects are documented by the company that is researching the drug? in many cases, the pharma companies suppress the truths, and market the products to reap enormous profits…

      You are supporting a very system that is exploitative.. there is difference b/w finding drugs to cure disease, and finding drugs to make business..

      your indian government had destroyed all alternative medical systems, so that people have no other choices except these pharma companies.. and in order to facilitate that, your government had destroyed agro-based economy, where people lived happily, and promoted capitalistic economy, where they are made slaves..

      /** Well, they did have much influence at the beginning of the industry, but you seem to form your opinion on them based on some pro-Nazi materials in the Internet, especially about the Rothschilds.. It’s true that historically many jews gained financial status in Europe using the strict usury laws in Christianity and Islam.
      **/

      It needs common sense to understand the issue..

      The rothschild family controls the federal bank (NOT american govt), and it is they who print dollars.. and using might of american govt, they had subjugated all oil producing nations, and made a situation where oil can be purchased ONLY by dollars that this rothschild family prints, and issues.. and it is this rothschild and rockfeller families, which control the pharma industry..

      If this is NOT economic colonisation, i wonder what else would be.. and you need to answer this..

      How do you expect FDA to strictly validate drugs, when the whole american government machinery is controlled by rothschild families..

      All technological invention, and innovation are done only to strengthen the hold of these few families over the whole world..

      and you are saying that i dont have the freedom to live in my agro-based economy, but to subject me to the economic system of these capitalists..

      • “The rothschild family controls the federal bank (NOT american govt), and it is they who print dollars.. and using might of american govt, they had subjugated all oil producing nations, and made a situation where oil can be purchased ONLY by dollars that this rothschild family prints, and issues..”

        You really have taken too much of the very same propaganda that Nazis used before butchering the Jews.. and the same conspiracy theories which Hitler propagated except that he said that the Marxist Jews were taking over the world and you are saying it’s the capitalists. In fact, many of you people’s ideas about caste, inter-marriage, purity etc. are very similar to what he says in Mein Kampf.. Time to understand the modern economy people..

      • senthil says:

        /** You really have taken too much of the very same propaganda that Nazis used before butchering the Jews..
        **/

        you need to prove what i said is wrong, instead of diverting the issue.. i had done a detailed study of these ownerships and writing here..

        First tell me whether you know about who controls and owns federal bank of america? Is american government owning them?

  97. rajeashish says:

    The post and responses by you have been a catharisis for me. I unlearnt all wrong notions ideas I fostered about Bharat on reading your above post and your responses. I am indebted to you for the same. My request could you explain the phenomenon of Bonded Labour in Bharat.

  98. rajeashish says:

    Please Ref your comment “when the national identity destroys my local identity, i have every right to oppose this national identity.. also the national identity takes priority only when in foreign countries.. ”
    However, was not Bharat a prey to Invaders due to lack of traditional sovereign authority.
    Bharat Gupt states “The Hindu cultural decline is not the case of a few battles lost or won, but of the growing inabilty of the Indian people to make strong and large empires after 7th century. Making the state, was an art lost from that time onwards, it seems. Also assimilating the invader was another ability lost.”

    Will you agree National Identity should have preponderance local identity.

    • senthil says:

      /** Will you agree National Identity should have preponderance local identity. **/

      It depends on how you define the nation and the national identity.. are india our nation? or is bharath our nation? which one do you prefer?

  99. ‘In one harvest season, a landless labour will earn enough grains for the whole year, and hence they secure their own food.. They are NOT forced to compulsorily work daily, and there is no fixed timings..”

    You are stuck in the Agrarian economy still.. We are in a different age.. The nature of economy, the supply-demand and the nature of labour has changed. There is no way we are going back to the old systems in the age of technology and innovation.

    “On the other hand, the daily labours of industries are paid meagre salaries, based on Cheap labour.. the industrial and capitalistic economy made human labour in to a cheap commodity, and doesnt care about welfare of the labour.. this is nothing but slavery, and you are NOT willing to discuss this..”

    I have already explained many times.. Read the balance sheet of a company to know the expenses.. The salaries of employees are not the only component of it. The companies need to pay for so many other things. If the employees are to be allocated a share of the profits, what happens if there are losses ? Employees are not shareholders by default. Besides, the wages of employees are also different based on skillset, experience, demand etc. It’s not always black and white as you suggest. The experienced workers in automobile companies are demanding a salary of close to 1 lakh per month in India. The managements will have no choice but to accede because of the demand.

    • senthil says:

      /** You are stuck in the Agrarian economy still.. We are in a different age.. The nature of economy, the supply-demand and the nature of labour has changed. There is no way we are going back to the old systems in the age of technology and innovation.
      **/

      This is what i am saying.. the agro-based economy is systematically destroyed by industrialists and capitalists.. and you are projecting it as something that happened on its own.. the technology and innovation are all aimed at destruction of the existing system..

      you are supporting this without any guilt..

      /** I have already explained many times.. Read the balance sheet of a company to know the expenses.. The salaries of employees are not the only component of it.
      **/

      I dont care about the balance sheet of the company… the issue here is about economic slavery of the people, where people are treated as cheap labour and given meagre wages, that keeps them poor for ever..

      • “the technology and innovation are all aimed at destruction of the existing system..”
        There is something called “change”. You seem to be averse to that. If you want to live in the past and shut the shop, it’s not going to happen..

      • senthil says:

        /** There is something called “change”. **/

        If some one comes and destroys your home, it is also a change.. if some one loots your house, it is also a change..

        /**
        You seem to be averse to that. If you want to live in the past and shut the shop, it’s not going to happen..
        **/

        If i want to live in my traditional social setup, i should have the right for that.. why is your capitalistic system, NOT allowing that?

        and by saying that i cannot live in my traditional environment, you are openly acknowledging that it is your system that has destroyed my society and preventing any one from regrouping.. this is what actually the worst kind of oppression..

  100. rajeashish says:

    Pls ref yr comment : “It depends on how you define the nation and the national identity.. are india our nation? or is bharath our nation? which one do you prefer?”.

    My idea of nation is BHARAT. viz the problem is of local clans fighting amongst them for invaders to take advantage, it is not only in military spheres but all spheres.

    • senthil says:

      /** My idea of nation is BHARAT. viz the problem is of local clans fighting amongst them for invaders to take advantage, it is not only in military spheres but all spheres.
      **/

      Just citing a name “Bharath” and calling it as idea is superficial.. what do you know about bharath? that is important..

      the phrase “fighting with each other” itself is misleading and a propoganda.. we did not fight with each other like how barbaric west fought with each other.. we had very advanced system of ruling, rights, inheritance etc.. pls study about our original history, NOT those that of colonial one..

  101. Surya Ramachandran says:

    Senthil may not like the author but facts cannot be changed:
    http://www.freeindia.org/biographies/greatleaders/ambedkar/page16.htm

    “India has lost her freedom only owing to treason of her own people. Raja Dahir of Sindh was defeated by Mahammad Bin Khasim. The only reason for this defeat was that the generals of the Sindh army took bribes from Jahsim’s men and did not fight for the king. It was Raja Jaichand of India who invited Mohammad Ghori to fight against Prithviraj. When Shivaji was fighting for the freedom of the Hindus, other Maratha leaders and Rajputs were fighting for the Mughals. When the Sikhs were fighting against the British, their leader did nothing…. Such things should not happen again; therefore, everyone must resolve to fight to the last drop of his blood, to defend the freedom of India”

    I am not trying to argue, but I can see that on one hand you have betrayal of millitary generals of Raja Dahir – how is it different from Europe. Raja Jaichand’s case, and Rajputs siding the Mughals. Rajas became Zamindars and worked for the British, although the British were cleverly giving rules regarding “Treaty of Lapse” etc. It took so long for the British Army to call themseleves Indian army.

    • senthil says:

      /** I am not trying to argue, but I can see that on one hand you have betrayal of millitary generals of Raja Dahir
      **/

      What is the proof?

      • Surya says:

        I do not have proof other than Ambdekars works. But for Raja Jaichands aligning with Gouri you can find even in the wiki page..

      • senthil says:

        /** I do not have proof other than Ambdekars works. But for Raja Jaichands aligning with Gouri you can find even in the wiki page..
        **/

        Thanks.. this is what we observed in many other historic facts.. they were twisted and projected in negative way.. we should not take colonial history (no matter even if written by indian stooges like ambedkar) as it is..

        reg jaichand, i agree with you..

  102. Surya says:

    Thanks for your comments. When you have free time, is it possible for you to write as much point-to-point note on Ambedkar’s works as possible. Because the biggest challenge against jatis is Ambedkar. We (atleast I) am used to thinking that Ambedkar was a scholar who had done independent study of history. Of course many errors I myself can note.
    In this book Annhiliation of Caste, which is the exact opposite of what we are trying to achieve in this blog he says that caste cannot bring economic prosperity. This has been proven wrong by GDP research in the 1970s.. Similarly Ambedkar claims that Indians are so weak (physically), that only a minuscule percent of the people are competent to take part in military. He makes many such claims. Also, His arguments against Rama looks stupid. Similarly, it irritates me when he says Dalits are non-Hindus. He claims Buddhism is a religion of masses, but I am not fully convinced as it could be more elitist. He gives several claims that the higher castes oppressed the lower ones by not allowing to dress up in an attire, as it was meant to be reserved for higher castes. All these need to be answered.

    Yet he remains a respected figure. Many agree Indian constitution is very good, much better than the Pakistan counterpart – I do not know if it is because of his work in the constitution or absence of Mullah/Army greed. He has come out against Jihad, and has warned India not to indulge too much on minorityism – which is causing problems today. He has called for Sanskrit to be a national language, as many of the Buddhist/Hindu (Shankaracharya, Gita, Ramayana etc.) works are in Sanskrit. He has spoken in favor of equality (which in general also implies equality between Mahars and Mangs unless mentioned/practiced otherwise), which was the most attractive idea in those times for the freedom fighters and the constitution writers. Recently, in one of CNNIBN polls he was judges as the next greatest Indian after Gandhi.

    Therefore, I feel he needs to be properly countered, you need to write articles where his fundamentals are shaken. You have already done in the case of Rajiv Malhotra. I think if it is done against Ambdedkar it would establish a lot.

    In my opinion, with the advent of public education system and internet now-a-days it was quite natural that a huge chunk of people different from what their parents take up. Also there is a raising demand for new professions – like say computer programmers, electronics, power-plants, railways etc. Only in some cases, it is possible call different set of people to settle in few villages, and ask the community to specialize on that occupation. Its not possible for many other professions. Also since the change is rapid, by the time the people settle in perfecting the technology, a new generation of technology comes up. Right now even without making people to settle down, with all freedom for people to start business on their own, we have not caught up with the technologies in the world. We still cannot compete China in electronic good manufacturing, even if its getting raw-materials from South East Asia. That’s how bad we are! We claim ourselves to be software exporters, but the work that we do is coolly work. As a check, ask yourself – How many new programming languages (even if the commands are written in English) have been found in India ? What has been the Indian contribution to Linux OS on a large scale? We are weak when it comes to contributing towards science and technology too. Even if we take the example of Jagdish Chandra Bose, why is it that his ideas of wireless was never implemented on ground with the help of entrepreneurs. Most entrepreneurs in India do not have anything new – they just do what has been historically done. We were always weak when it came to dealing with and inventing machines. Even today we import most defence equipment – all this inspite of a huge population. Agreed that if specialization of education is done from 10-11 years it would have been better as people would have real knowledge than mere book learning.


    Also, it can be seen that India has not been united – Jaichands betrayal etc. Similarly, the lesson learnt before the Vijaynagara empire was that if Hindu forces acted together M
    Malik Kafur’s nastiness would have been prevented. Isn’t it always good to have a common army, because all of the countries forces would be used in the battle. We cannot have 30 different countries with nuclear weapons. India needs to present itself with one defense. Of course, villages need more autonomy I agree. I myself am a fan of greater decentralization, as this will prevent power from the hands of chosen few be in first family of congress, influential capitalist companies like Monsanto, reduce red-tape and corruption, increase activity in villages rather than just freezing them.

  103. Surya says:

    An advanced history of india by rc majumdar et al page 172
    The young commander stormed Debal captured nerun and some other cities and strongholds and pushed on to the Western banks of Indus. His work was greatly falicitated by the treachery of certain Buddhist priests and renegade chiefs who deserted their sovereign and joined the invader. With the assistance of some of these traitors Mohammed crossed the vast sheet of water separating his army from that of Dahir and gave the battle to the Indian ruler near Raor AD712.

  104. It seems my last comment on the federal reserve and the rotschilds is filtered. Please check.

  105. Surya Ramachandran says:

    Senthil, I found this link recently. What are your comments on Velmurugan’s claims

    • senthil says:

      there may be some true in it.. but that doesnt mean all that ramdas does is bogus.. the accusations that velmurugan makes is applicable to all political parties .. what is the motive of this person (velmurugan)?

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – Do not blindly support Dr Ramadoss just because he supports jaathi. His party has indeed committed significant number of crimes in the name of jaathi in the recent past. The recent toll booth incident is just one among them.

  106. Priya says:

    Breaking Linguistic states to break linguistic identity is the worst kind of Fascist thought. Why not break Caste identities first? The Maoist Brahmins and RSS Brahmins are out to break India by breaking linguistic states, making linguistic people hate each other and then Transferring power to Hindi Male Brahmin Lords. They have successfully convinced some linguistic groups that breaking away from their linguistic counterparts is good for them. Until these Maoist and RSS Brahmins and their Bania counterparts are handled India will be in trouble. (again there are liberal Brahmins as well, so this is nothing against Brahmins) . The first task to preserve India’s unity is to drive out these Hindiland Brahmin politics and Maoist insurgents. Only South can save India from extinction.

    • senthil says:

      Why should you break caste identities? Is it NOT a fascist thought?

      and linuistic states promote linguistic chauvinism, and spearhead separatism.. It is the Dravidar Kalagam’s Tamil Nadu which demanded separation from India..

      on what basis? on the basis of tamil language..

      on what basis did LTTE fought against srilanka.. on the basis of Tamil as language.. Linuistic chauvinism which leads to racism based on laguage..

      Breaking of this linguistic states will lead to formation of cultural states, which will strengthen the society..

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