Can English Educated Brahmins be Dharmic ?

I am posting this particular comment of Raghavan Srinivasan as separate post. He has beautifully explained how english educated brahmins drifted away from dharma..

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@vyasa2
I have no idea about brahmins or anti-brahmin sentiments in parts of India other than Tamilnadu. I am but a frog croaking from my Tamilnadu well and can speak from that limited perspective only! At the risk of repetition kindly allow me to suggest a few clarifications.

I agree that it was indeed the British who were the primary villains in undermining Indian society. I also agree that the brahmins did not side with the British with the intent of maliciously oppressing others. The British ruled India with the idea of looting its riches. They rearranged the Indian society to cement their hold on the country and facilitate transfer of wealth to Britain. It was plain loot and the entire society became impoverished in the process. Some brahmins also realized the error of fraternizing British institutions and participated in the freedom struggle. All said and done, the brahmins, by falling into that trap set by the British, (knowingly or unknowingly) became accessories to the mischief and were seen as collaborators. Leave alone the Mughal and British eras, even now a lot of brahmins are true to their Dharma. The grievance of the other communities was caused by the brahmins deserting their dharma, NOT because they were true to it.

All brahmins were not only archakas. They were into other professions also, but always allied to academics and having altruism as a foundation of whatever profession they adopted. The “anushtaanam” here was adherence to academicia and altruism. They were teachers, priests, astrologers, poets, and advisors to the rulers (example, Chanakya). At no point were they money lenders, labourers or soldiers (at least in Tamilnadu!). You may say that the Sungas were brahmins as were the Peshwas, but these examples were only aberrations and NOT the norm.

In ancient times education, power, wealth and labour and compartmentalized as separate silos and a community was forbid from acquiring more than one of these. This arrangement counteracted tendencies for aggrandizement, made each community dependent on the others and contributed for social cohesion. A brahmin with English education under the British acquired an erstwhile forbidden taste for wealth and power and started to overlord the other communities. This was precisely the reason why the ancients forbid the brahmin from wielding wealth or power.

A brahmin could not ‘commoditize’ his knowledge. Denial of service by a brahmin on grounds of affordability or selling to the highest bidder would both be construed as trade – the prerogative of the vaishyas. I think that is the principle behind the dakshina – receiving wholeheartedly whatever is offered – a ‘pay what you can’ concept and that is how the brahmins functioned in the past. Society did not expect any free service from the brahmin – after all he also had to survive. It did expect him NOT to fix a fee and be rigid to the extent of denying services to others. Please also refer Dharmpal’s book ‘The Beautiful Tree’ which describes the education system in India as seen by the British Collectors and officials.

A dakshina demanded with an ulterior motive would not really be honourable and Dronacharya cannot be held as the ideal example of a brahmana. Using your own example, if a brahmin doctor in private practice said his fee was 100 rupees and if a poor patient went away without consulting him because he could not afford his fees, would you say the brahmin doctor is true to the brahmana dharma? Is he not commoditizing his education and selling to a higher bidder – in other words, engaging in trade? Do you still consider him to be a brahmin, even if he did his sandhyavandhanam religiously? Far worse would be the brahmin doctor building a private hospital and making a profit – imagine a so called brahmin making a profit from another man’s distress. You may say the brahmin doctor is doing a ‘service’ in providing treatment, but then should he not adopt a ‘pay what you can’ system to deserve the service halo? The motive behind fixing the fees is to make money and not really to ‘serve the poor’, isn’t it? By saying all this I am not blurring any lines. On the contrary, the lines blur only when the brahmin learns English medicine, becomes a private / corporate doctor, and starts to make money from the sick.

It was the dharma of a vaishya to generate wealth in a honourable manner, and naturally they were interested in wealth. Avarice was certainly condemned. In Roman times, India was considered to be a ‘gold sink’ and the Romans were so worried about their depleting treasury that they started to debase their coinage. The Indian traders retaliated by curtailing trade with the Romans. How can a trader NOT be interested in money? A money lender could have ‘adhyatmik chinthana’ and engage in philanthropy etc, but the minute he sat behind his counter he had better be sure all his debtors repaid their loans in time! Altruistic ‘pay as you can’ dakshina schemes have obviously no place here! Statements like ‘no one’s money or everyones money’ do not follow the logic of the market place and for a vaishya to be like that would invite only disaster.

Becoming a dubashi i.e acquiring English education in itself does not make anybody adharmic. Becoming a dubashi and misapplying the varna instinct is what is adharma. As I have explained before, the other communities (at least in Tamilnadu) after becoming dubashi, are now venturing into fields not really appropriate for commerce, for example education and medicine. At least the other communities can say, “You brahmins set the example first.We merely followed you because, during all these years we really were implicitly following whatever you said!” Still, the other communities, even after becoming dubashi, could remain true to their varna dharma. For example, a trader can apply modern computer and mathematical skills, become phenomenally successful in Dalal Street and yet be true to his varna dharma. A brahmin who uses the very same formulae becomes a trader and hence fails his dharma. A brahmin can design the programme, but pressing the ‘Buy/Sell – Yes/No’ button was the prerogative of the vaishya. Similarly a brahmin can design the best rifles, but pointing the weapon at the enemy and pulling the trigger is NOT his prerogative.

As for the statement of sweepers following their svadharma according to their svabhava, it was made in the context of varnas and occupations. Of course housewives also contribute to the prosperity of the nation by upholding their dharma, but that issue is out of context here.

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167 Responses to Can English Educated Brahmins be Dharmic ?

  1. ராமசந்திரசேகரன் says:

    வர்ணாஸ்ரமத்தில் உள்ள எவரும் அவரவர் தர்மத்தை கடைப்பிடிக்காமல் பாதை மாறி உள்ளனர் தான் உண்மை நிலை.இதிலும் பிராம்மணர்களை மட்டும்”குறி” ஏன்
    வைக்க வேண்டும்.இக்கட்டுரை எழுதிய “ஸ்ரீநிவாசராகவன்” ஏன் விதிவிலக்காக
    இருந்து அந்த ‘அனுஷ்ட்டானங்களை” செய்யவில்லை/கூடாது?இது காலத்தின்
    கட்டாயம்.கால தேவன் விரும்பும் மாற்றத்தை அற்ப பதர்களான நாம் யார் முடிவு
    செய்ய!காந்சி மஹாஸ்வாமிகள் கூட காலத்தின் கட்டாயம் என்று சொல்லியதாக
    சிலர் சொல்கின்றனர்.கருமசித்தன் காலம் முடிந்து இப்போது 18/19ம் நூற்றாண்டில் ஞானசித்தனின் காலம் நடக்கிறது.அதனால் தான் விஞ்ஞானம் மிகப்பெரிய அளவில் வளர்ச்சி அடைந்துள்ளது.வள்ளளார் திரு இராமலிங்க அடிகளாரின் 6ம்
    திருமுறையில் விவரமாக அவர் எழுதிஉள்ளார்.

    • senthil says:

      the answer for your question lies in this article itself..

      • ராமசந்திரசேகரன் says:

        வர்ணாஸ்ர தர்மம் பிராம்மணருக்கு மாத்திரம் விதிக்கப்பட்டது அல்ல.எல்லா வர்ணத்தினருக்கும் பொருந்தும்.க்ஷத்ரியர்,வைசியர்,சூத்திரர்
        எல்லோரும் மீறி உள்ளனர்.இதில் குறைந்த அளவு மீறியது சூத்திரர்கள்
        தான்.பிராம்மணர் தான் தர்மத்தை கடைபிடிப்பவன்/காப்பாற்றுபவன் என்ற அணுகு முறையில் எழுதப்பட்ட கட்டுரை இது.பிராம்மணர்களுக்கு அதிகப்படியான கடமைகள் கர்ம சித்தன் காலத்தில் எற்படுத்தப்பட்டது.அறு தொழில் புரிவோன் என்று வள்ளுவரும் குறிப்பிடுகின்றார்.யாகம் செய்வது/செய்விப்பது,வேதம் கற்றுக்கொடுப்பது/கற்றுக்கொள்வது,தானம் வாங்குவது/கொடுப்பது. இந்த மூன்றையும் நடத்த மாறிய ஞான சித்தன்
        கால சமுதாயத்தில் யாரும் தயாராக இல்லை.

  2. bhagwad says:

    English is just another language. So is Sanskrit. Or Tamil. Or Hindi. Just a series of sounds to communicate. Let’s not attach any emotional significance to any of them.

    A language is successful if lots of people speak it. That’s all. If fewer people speak a certain language, it is less important. The only purpose of language is to communicate.

    • senthil says:

      Every language represents the culture .. you cannot reduce it to a mere communicating tool..

      • vyas says:

        Don’t think so. Culture directly descends from civilization IMO. Assume that TamilNadu has a unique culture which is called as Tamil culture. If you replace just the language with another, does the culture dies along with it? The japanese are japanese no matter what language they speak. The Brahmins follow the Vedic culture throughout the country no matter what language they speak.

      • senthil says:

        Try replacing english for sanskrit mantras chanted in temples..

        You are confusing ethnicity with culture.. japanese use their language in every parts of their life.. they learn through japanese language..

    • vv says:

      “The only purpose of language is to communicate”
      says a mentally colonized fellow. I guess the literature and drama in your language either does not exist or you have never read it. To simply say that the purpose of language is to communicate is as stupid as saying the purpose of erotica is for procreation. It is much more than that. I pity the fellow who is so shallow and mentally removed from his mother language that he cannot see the beauty in poetry, drama, the use of similies in a language that cannot be easily translated into others.

  3. Vyasa2 says:

    You did 2+2=5 , and think you have a neat answer.What you did is redefine ancient varna profession rules for non Brahmins as per European style,since Europe doesn’t have an equivalent version of Brahmins you retained ancient varna profession rules for current brahmins.Also can you please elaborate what is Dharma to you? Are you tailoring dharma to profession for convenience?

    • senthil says:

      What raghavan srinivasan proposes is to delink profession from dharma, and apply the essense of dharma to any profession a brahmin might take.. in that sense, he said, that the as per brahmana dharma prevents, a brahmin should not sell his services.. apply this to modern profession..

      While we may not entirely agree with him, he puts forwards a different but more deeper perspective..

      • Vyasa2 says:

        That’s what I said. I’m not debating about profession.He has applied ancient brahmana dharma of profession(for dharma is much more, and sometimes like you said purpose makes dharma like apatdharma) to modern day Brahmins but redefined that of non brahmins (for they had a dharma of profession too)as per European ethics..It is like 2+2=5 or a dharma made for his purpose :) which you find as deep perspective.

      • senthil says:

        @vyasa2,

        You are obsessed with non-brahmins for all the time.. even if all non-brahmins threw away their dharma, a brahmana should still follow his.. do you agree? or do you make brahmana dharma as conditional?

      • I am not sure if “profession can be delinked from dharma” or “the essence of dharma be applied to any profession a brahmin may take”. I have given my assumptions on these concepts as follows:

        If we accept that Dharma is immutable and our scriptures exhort us to do our duty according to our dharma, how can one divorce his dharma from his profession? Also if we agree a person has to follow his Dharma at all times (not merely whenever it is convenient for him) it then means he cannot choose a profession which is contrary to his Dharma, isn’t it?
        Taking this concept a bit further, I would also suggest that ALL professions are NOT open for brahmins. They can choose only those occupations which are not contrary to their svabhava, because svabhavaniyatam karma kuru -work as per your svabhava, and even if paradharmas – other dharmas, are all svanushtithaat – followed well, it leads only to kilbisham – sin. Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 18, Verse 47.

        Nowadays brahmins who realize the error of their ways and desire to reform, may feel trapped in their dubashi professions due to circumstances beyond their control with no hope of escape. For example the brahmin doctor in private practice who desires to follow the brahmana dharma, may, by having a ‘pay what you can’ system in his clinic, be to a certain extent if not in full measure, true to the spirit of the brahmana dharma – sreyan svadharmo vigunah: better is one’s own duty, even if imperfectly performed! (The initial part of the above sloka).

        Having said that the essence of brahmana dharma cannot be applied to all professions, for example, to point a particularly ghastly example, in an abattoir! There is simply no place for a brahmin in such a situation!

  4. vyas says:

    //Try replacing english for sanskrit mantras chanted in temples..//

    You are mistaken. Sanskrit is not a language in a true sense. This is why it was never a spoken medium predominantly. It is a simply a set of sounds meant to cause some reverberations. Sanskrit is irreplaceable with any language for that matter. This is why we oppose those DK idiots who advocate for Tamil inside the garba graha. The modern sanskrit that you see as a language was artificially formed out of the Vedic sounds acquired from Brahma Lipi.

    //You are confusing ethnicity with culture.. japanese use their language in every parts of their life.. they learn through japanese language..//

    So what according to you the people of India are? Do you mean to say that each group here which speaks a different language is ethnically different?

    • senthil says:

      @vyas,

      So many words from sanskrit found all across indic languages.. even tamil has 42% of its words derived from sanskrit.. in such case, you cannot just replace a language for a culture.. language doesnt exist independantly..

      /**So what according to you the people of India are? Do you mean to say that each group here which speaks a different language is ethnically different?
      **/

      Yes.. the political and administrative structure india today is british version.. but as per our original version, we see our land as below..
      bharatha varsham (the whole south east asia)
      bharatha kandam (undivided india + srilanka & burma)
      56 dhesams (magatha, mithila, saurashtra, konkan, maratha, telengana, kalinga, chola, pandya, chera etc)

      Each dhesam is a distinct society, with distinct culture.. but all are binded by a common civilizational framework..

      I will write separate post on this..

      • vyas says:

        //So many words from sanskrit found all across indic languages.. even tamil has 42% of its words derived from sanskrit.. in such case, you cannot just replace a language for a culture.. language doesnt exist independantly..//

        Again you are just concentrating on the spoken part of Sanskrit, but according to me it’s far more than that. I agree that culture and language are intertwined, but my argument is that the same culture can boast many languages and replacing a language does not destroy the culture completely. It may be disturbed a bit but can be restored after a while.

        ///**So what according to you the people of India are? Do you mean to say that each group here which speaks a different language is ethnically different?//

        Senthil – Ethnicity is directly proportional to race. If you say we are ethnically different, then we should be racially different too. In that case may I take it that you agree that we racially different but just don’t believe in Aryan Invasion?

        //Each dhesam is a distinct society, with distinct culture.. but all are binded by a common civilizational framework..//

        Exactly. My question is what made our people call the present post British India as Bharatha Varsha? Why didn’t they claim china as part of this Bharatha Varsha?

      • senthil says:

        /** and replacing a language does not destroy the culture completely **/
        No.. pls see the “Tamil Ini” video in last article comment.. language defines the thought process, which in turn defines the culture..

        /** Senthil – Ethnicity is directly proportional to race. **/
        Actually there is no proper definition of ethnicity… this is the problem with using english vocabularies..
        We may or may not be racially different among ourselves.. but that’s not an important thing.. we have common civilizational pattern..

        /** Exactly. My question is what made our people call the present post British India as Bharatha Varsha? Why didn’t they claim china as part of this Bharatha Varsha?
        **/
        Post British india inherited the british definition of india, and british political and administrative structure..

        Varsha has different meaning.. it means rain.. the areas having common monsoon patterns are grouped as varsha.. the northern border of bharatha varsha is the entire stretch of himalayas.. So china cannot become part of bharatha varsha..

  5. I would be interested in the commentators views on “HOW the English educated brahmins can be Dharmic?” i.e by what anushtaanams can an English educated brahmin become Dharmic?

    • Vyasa2 says:

      @Raghavan
      When it comes to vedic practices,tapasvis,meditation etc it is not one-one mapping with good deeds,bad deeds.But no good deed is free ticket to bad behavior,deed.
      Human mind stuck in logic can only identify morality related deeds as good eds.Which was main reason why avaidic religions,Abrahamic religions were able to make fun of vaidic practices.Vedic practices are very intense,difficult,are very beyond avg logic but are very highly rewarding both to the person and society .Catch is the reward will not be easily obvious like result of meritorious degree or successful job so much so that the person enjoying the reward wouldn’t even realize the source of his pleasure unless he is deep analyst.,
      I’m not keen about going into deeper aspects as mostly they will be difficult to uderstand and easy to misunderstand.
      Anyways coming to you question of anushtana even simple act like the postion,location the person consumes his meals itself has major impact on the flow of energy in him and his surroundings .The way brahmins eat their food without shirt, starting with oupasana is equivalent to one aspect of yaga which in simple parlance is high energy for them and surroundings.You will see even in the
      case of a adharmic corporate Brahmin houses too that they will just not eat meals sitting on the bed .Basic strict practices mostly do’s ,donots, touch,touch nots then sandhya which is immense energy practice ,vegetarianism which even jains follow strictly,many more daily Brahmin practices to other hi-fi practises ,following which is possible only to those born and brought up in Brahmin environment,constitute anusthana dharma.Now vruthi dharma is just one aspect of the dharma.

    • vedamgopal says:

      Mr.Raghavan Srinivasan (for our discussion further given below certain views of Swami Dayananda)

      Order of Dharma (Swami Dayananda)

      “If everything is not only a creation but manifestation of Ishvara, Dharma is also His manifestation, not a mandate. This is the Vedic view of Dharma. That is the reason why end does not justify the means. For the sake of Ishvara you cannot do anything against dharma, which is not separate from Ishvara”

      In a given situation what is proper and needs to be done is Dharma, which is not-separated from Ishvara. I may get away from the hands of local laws, but I cannot get away from the law of dharma because it is Ishvara Himself. If I rub gainst dharma, I get rubbed. Action and reaction are not only equal, they are opposite too. So when I go against dharma, I attract what is called Papa and when I go with dharma, reach out to do something which helps another person, I attract whis is called Punya. The Papa and Punya ar realities for us.. Therefore, the law of Karma also is Ishvara. Dharma and Karma (Papa & Punya) are both sides of one and the same coin.

      For a vaidika (one who follows Vedic tradition) who accepts with total understanding that this world including one’s own body-mind-sense complex is the Lord’s manifestation, any form of prayer and worship is valid. Every name and form is valid enough to invoke the Lord., the lord being every name and form. But prayer either mental, oral or ritualistic is a karma, capable of producing a result The given result is not the goal of religions much less the goal of any individual even if one thinks so. The goal of an informed vaidika is freedom from a sense of limitation centered on ‘I’. Can there bean ultimate goal for a human being other than this? This freedom, moksha, from this sense of limitation is the human goal. The veda says that the sense of limitation is due to one not knowing oneself. Then it is obvious that the human goal is self-knowledge. So all that a vaidika can say is “all forms of prayer are valid”. Being a act, a karma, each prayer can produce a limited result. One wants a limited result too in life. But it can never be the goal of religion much less of a human being.

  6. vyas says:

    Snethil/Raghavan Sir – What are your views on Varna by birth? We had a lengthier discussion about this in this forum, but I see that a lot of corporate Brahmins (like Subramania Swamy) keep quoting the following line from Bhagavad Gita to claim that Varna was not birth based in those days. What are your views on the same?

    “CHATUR VARNYAM MAYAA SRISHTAM GUNA KARMA VIBHAGASHAHA …”

    • senthil says:

      We will discuss this in separate post.. pls wait..

      • Vyasa2 says:

        /** You are obsessed with non-brahmins for all the time **/
        Stop trying to give me inferiority complex,Caste hijacker,offended by dubashi,unjust, and now this.I didn’t do the non brhamin,brhamin,Dalal street etc comparison, I didn’t write this article.Comparing is always tricky

    • panduranghari says:

      जन्मना जायते शूद्रः. संस्कारात् द्विजं उच्यते |
      वेद-पाठात् भवेत् विप्रः ब्रह्म जानाति ब्राह्मणः| स्कंदपुराण ६.२३९.३१

      Perhaps this is a more appropriate verse.

  7. vedamgopal says:

    திரு. செந்திலின் கொள்கைகள் மிகவும் வினோதமானது!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. வர்ணம் என்பது பிறப்பின் அடைபடையில்தான் என்கிறார். ஆனால் விவசாயத்தை பரம்பரை தொழிலாக கொண்ட அவர் தன்னுடைய வர்ணம் சூத்திரர்தான் என்பதை ஏற்காமல் தன்னுடைய வர்ணம் எது என்று சரியாக தெரியாது என்கிறார்.
    2. தீண்டாமை தவறு இல்லை என்பதில் உருதியாகயிருக்கிறார். அவர்கள் அடங்கி இருப்பதற்காக சில கட்டுபாடுகள் சமூகத்தில் ஏற்படுத்தப்பட்டனவே அன்றி அவர்களை ஒடுக்குவதற்காக அல்ல என்கிறார்.
    3. பலவகை வழிபாடுகளை கொண்ட பாரதசமூகத்தை ஒரு தனி அடையானமான ஹிந்து ஹிந்துத்துவம் என்று வரையறுப்பதை அவர் எதிர்கிறார். இவ்வாறு அப்பிரஹாமிய மதங்களைப் போல் ஒருமுக தன்மை கொண்டு அடையாளப் படுத்துவது பண்முகதன்மை கொண்ட பாரத கலாசாரத்தை கெடுக்கும் என்கிறார்
    4. களப்பிரர் காலம் தொடங்கி நாயகர் காலம் இஸ்லாமியர் ஆக்கிரமிப்பு கிழகிந்திய கம்பெனி வியாபாரம் பிரிட்டிஷ் ஆளுமை போன்ற காலகட்டங்களில் மற்றவர்ணத்தவர்தாம் மிகுதியாக துபாஷிகளாக மாறி நாட்டை காட்டிகொடுத்தல் கூட்டிக்கொடுத்தல் போன்ற செயல்களை செய்துவந்தனர் என்பதை ஏற்க்காமல் பிரிட்டிஷ் ஆளுமையின் போது வெகுவான பிராமிணர்கள் துபாஷிகாளக மாறியதால்தான் சமூகம் கெட்டுவிட்டது போல் சித்திரம் தீட்டுகிறார். களப்பிரர்கள் காலத்தில் தொடங்கி நாயகர்கள் காலத்தில் ஏற்படுத்திய வெள்ளாளர் நாயகர் கூட்டணி நீதிக்கட்சி தி.மு.க என்று தொடர்ந்து அன்நியனுக்கு சேவகம் செய்வதையே அடிமை புத்தியுடன் ஒரு கொள்கையாக கொண்டு இன்றுவரை செயல்பட்டு வருகிறார்கள் என்பதை முழுவதுமாக ஏற்கமறுக்கிறார்
    5. இப்பொழுது பிராமிணன் வைதீகத்தை கைவிட்டதால்தான் சமூகம் கெட்டுவிட்டது அதனால் வைதீகனை முன்னேற்ற சமூகம் பாடுபடவேண்டும் என்கிறார் எப்படி அவன் ஏன் கெட்டான் என்பதை பற்றிய ஆராச்சிகளை எல்லா ஒருசேர ஒதுக்கி தள்ளிவிட்டு.
    6. (The need of the Hour) கோவில்களில் அரசாங்கத்தின் ஆக்ரமிப்பு- கட்டுக் கடங்காமல் அதிகரித்துக்கொண்டிருக்கும் மதமாற்றங்கள்-தீவிரவாத தாக்குதல்கள்- கட்டுபடுத்தமுடியாத நிலையையில் நாட்டில் நடந்துவரும் ஊழல் கொள்ளைகள் இவற்றிற்கு ஒரு தீர்வை ஏற்படுத்திவிட்டு ஹிந்து சமூகம் உயிர் பெற்று எழுமானால் மாறிய சமூகம் ஒட்டுமொத்தமாக ஒருமனதாக பிராமிணவெறுப்பை ஒதுக்கி ஆதரவு தறுமானால் நிச்சயமாக எல்லா பிராமிணர்களும் காலப் போக்கில் தங்கள் வர்ண தர்மத்தை பின்பற்றுவார்கள் என்பதுதான் நிதர்சனம். இது நடக்குமா ?????????

    • senthil says:

      திரு வேதம் கோபால்..

      1. வர்ணம் பிறப்பிலானதா என்பதை பற்றி தனி பதிவில் விவாதிக்கலாம்..

      2. களப்பிரர், நாயக்கர் கால வரலாற்றை “ஹின்து” சாயலோடு படிக்காமல், உள்ளது உள்ளபடி நடுநிலையாக புரிந்து கொள்ள வேண்டியது அவசியம்..

      3. நீங்களே ஒரு “ஹிண்து” சமூகத்தை கற்பனை செய்து கொண்டு, அந்த சமூகம் இதை செய்யவில்லை, அதை செய்யவில்லை என்று புலம்புவது நிறுத்தப்பட வேண்டும்.. இதை நாம் தனி பதிவில் பார்க்கலாம்..

      கடைசியாக நான் சொல்வது வினோதமானதா இல்லையா என்பது முக்கியமல்ல.. நான் சொல்வது உண்மையா இல்லையா என்பதே முக்கியம்.. அதுதான் என்னுடைய அளவுகோல்..

  8. poovannan says:

    Being a father of two daughters and son of a working women and from a family where tracing any nonworking women in the past 50 years is next to impossible I find the arguments extremely distressing .The arguments are basically rants of confused male chauvunists longing for the old chavunistic days where patriarchy reigned supreme among all castes
    Have you ever moved with girls within and outside the family.Do you know what they feel about their role in your utopia.Marriage problems for dubashis of any varna or vaideeha traditionals of any varna is due to the women crossing the barriers of caste when exposed to education and job opportunities a fact which the Dollar earning retarded desis(DERD) are unable to digest
    Its a all male show and the progressives can breathe easy with the plans for revival of tradition and varna based professions/untouchability as half of the population is on their side without any effort
    Its amusing to see the talk,plan,strategies about whom a vaideeha or dubashi family girl should marry without having any consideration for the concerned individual.Its simply an male issue and periods in history when polygamy was the norm and widows where treated worser than animals are glorified

    • shankar says:

      If you really want a quick overview of the people who spew venom in this page, imagine how you would maintain a cow right from it being a calf, to it being dead. Write it down in at least 10 bullet point steps… Now replace the word cow with woman… Alas you arrive at finding the views of the male chauvinists posting in this page..

      • senthil says:

        and you people, who mortgage yourself for corporate companies, and get kicked at your butt for not doing what is ordered is speaking about cattles and freedom..

    • senthil says:

      @poovannan,

      I had earlier requested you NOT to distract the core discussions.. If you believe in westernised concepts of individual rights, you have the freedom to pursue that.. if you feel, people are just individuals, and NOT part of any commune, it is your own right.. No one prevents you from having your belief.. you can join with other like minded people..

      But you have no right to dictate Universal Morality to every one.. you have no right to label me or others.. the society existed as free and self-sustainable commune for thousands of years, and we are speaking about sustaining that.. if you dont like this, you can abstain from this discussion.. Labelling as male chavunists is beyond your limits..

    • senthil says:

      @poovannan,

      This post does not discuss about women alone.. it also discussed about whom a vaideeha men should marry.. and what customs and practices he should follow.. dont drag your perverted individual rights here.. and dont sensationalise here by projecting women’s rights alone..

  9. poovannan says:

    @senthil
    I am all for people to follow the way of life they want to or like.i am not advocating the forcible conversion of any vaideeha or dubashi or their separation but just support their choice to do what they want. I have no issues with a dubashi or his next generation becoming a vaideeha or viceversa
    I just support any caste/women if they want to become vaideeha or dubashi on the basis of their longings and inner call.are you for that
    You stand for rigid compartmentalisation and no individual rights or choices and you blame me of forcing my way of life on others. kindly analyse the anomaly.

    • vyas says:

      @Ponvannan

      From where did you get this stupid lifestyle through inner call? It was from the West. Our way of life was not driven through inner call but through dharma. Every child born was motivated to follow his/her dharma and was not driven through self interest. Don’t you ever advocate or impose the lifestyle driven by self interest on others. If you want to follow it, go ahead and we have absolutely no issues with it. If one follows a dharmic lifestyle he has to abide by certain rules and that’s what we are emphasizing here in this forum. Again, we are not forcing it on anyone, we are just establishing a platform for taking a collective decision in the future. Are the corporates not taking a decision which the employees are asked to follow? It’s the stupid self interest oriented lifestyle is the one which has made the whole world a chaos. We don’t need it, but we have become victims of it for the past 3 generations. We want to get rid of it. This forum is just a medium for establishing a platform for the future generation. We will succeed one day but don’t know when. Even if we don’t at least discussions like this will act as a bridge for carrying forward our thoughts to the next generation.

    • senthil says:

      @poovannan,

      /** i am not advocating the forcible conversion of any vaideeha or dubashi or their separation but just support their choice to do what they want
      **/
      Please quote any where in this article (including comments), where we had advocated applying force?
      We are only discussing about creating suitable environments for vaideeha life style, and you are mis-interpreting it as something forced..

      • poovannan says:

        You are discussing on how they are not getting a bride and consider the bride as a commodity/propertywho has no choices and are pleading with the dubashis for leaving that property for vaideeha.Am i right
        Are you not denying or rather forcing the females to be silent spectators on who their suitors should be and what should be their profession/style of life
        You have no issues with the males if they quit their professions and just plead with them to get separated but have no similar choices for the females.Is it fair
        Why should a women in vaideeha or dubashi have no choice in selecting her partner or profession.

      • In a Dharmic paradigm a wife is considered a Dharmapathni and marriage between a boy and a girl is for perpetuation of Dharma. A wife is not a slave or a chattel, but an equal partner of the man and is her presence is essential for the fruition of all dharmic acts. A man and his wife are considered a fundamental unit of a family in the Dharmic model. Neither a man or a woman alone get the same respect individually as conferred on them together as a couple. No yagam or dhanam would be complete without the presence of the wife by the side of the man. In fact, only a married man with a living wife can offer pujas to God in the garbagriha of a temple. Neither brahmacharis or widowers are permitted inside. Literally and figuratively vaideeha wives have to ‘stand by their men’ or else Dharma cannot be observed!

        This whole discussion is based on the fact that once upon a time the then vaideeha brahmins abandoned their Dharma to become dubashi. Nobody is condoning the male for breaking the rules and as you can see from the discussions, the Hindutva brahmins are criticized and the westernised brahmins are reviled for their respective adharmic behaviors. What holds true for the men also holds true for the women and what is considered adharma for a male is adharma for a female also. A vaideeha woman who abandons her tradition not only commits adharma, but, more importantly, she impinges on the ability of a corresponding vaideeha male who would have married her from continuing his ‘anushtaanam’ of Dharma.

        Usually women marry ‘equal’ or ‘up’ in an economic scale and only very rarely do they marry ‘down’. Dubashi brahmin families are usually wealthier than vaideeha families and usually vaideeha girls are married to dubashi boys. The converse, dubashi girls marrying vaideeha boys is very rare. As I have explained earlier, a dubashi brahmin boy on marrying a vaideeha girl, perpetuates his adharmic lifestyle, willy-nilly drags the innocent girl along with him into adharma and also becomes instrumental in blighting the traditional order and hence deserves to be discouraged from doing so.

        As long as a girl follows Dharma she has her ‘swathantriyam’ of choosing her life partner. Aiding her in case she decides on an adharmic path would be tantamount to colluding in the breakdown of dharma. However, at the end of the day, no force is used to imprison anybody in any system against their will. A vaideeha girl wishing to abandon her tradition is free to do it, but then she should be prepared for the consequences that would follow upon “rubbing Dharma the wrong way”. This same logic would apply for any profession she might choose.

        In my limited understanding these are the codes to be followed in a Dharmic paradigm. In a Western non-dharmic paradigm, emphasis is placed on individual liberty. This is because those cultures developed from slave owning societies and naturally personal liberty is given very high importance. Applying the rules of one model to the other will always result in bewilderment. A person has to make a choice between these two models rather than be like a ‘tirisangu’ Hindutva brahmin with a foot in either bank claiming to be following Dharma while still enjoying the material comforts of a non-Dharmic mode of life!

      • senthil says:

        @poovannan,

        /** You are discussing on how they are not getting a bride and consider the bride as a commodity/propertywho has no choices and are pleading with the dubashis for leaving that property for vaideeha
        **/

        The problem is with your perspective for which i could not answer.. you are deliberately twisting and manipulating even this straight forward issues..

      • senthil says:

        @raghavan Srinivasan,

        what you told is followed in almost all traditional societies..

        Recently when i went to my kula temple, the drum beater who lost his wife did not come.. the reason cited is that he can beat drums in temple, only when his wife is alive..

        Similarly, for any auspicious occasions, the sumangali is invited.. and for marriages, only living couples are invited..

        This tradition is common for all communities part of varna dharma..

  10. I am indeed thankful to Sri Vedamgopal and @vaysa2 for their considered responses to my query. At the risk of sounding like a gramophone record with a scratch, I would like to elaborate a bit on the dakshina system.

    Dakshina and Innovative Disruption:

    Adoption of the dakshina system of payment wherever possible by a Hindutva brahmin will have a most disruptive effect on the remuneration of knowledge. Nowadays, the price of education is determined by the market – demand vs supply and the utility of a particular degree / qualification to earn money. For example, medicine. Demand is more, supply is less and all doctors are perceived to be making a lot of money. Naturally capitation fees for a medical postgraduate degree are quite high.

    The gesture of brahmins with high quality expertise (management, technical etc) volunteering their services to businesses and educational institutions operated by other communities on a dakshina system will effectively serve to delink merit and expertise from remuneration. When such a disruption takes place, academic knowledge will cease to demand a high monetary price in terms of remuneration. This will again disrupt the need for all and sundry to ‘earn’ (literally and figuratively) a degree from an elite institute as an investment to make money. When people comprehend the fact that a place in an elite institute is no guarantee for a fat paycheck, the demand for such seats will automatically come down. This will in turn leave the field open to persons who are genuinely interested in the subject (rather than in using the subject to make money).

    Let me explain this further with an example. Suppose the brahmin doctor in our earlier example were to volunteer his services in a private (NOT a corporate) hospital on a dakshina basis, he would delink his medical expertise from his remuneration. The owner of the hospital (belonging to the other community) would have no reason to employ anybody else at a higher salary. If this situation was widely replicated in other private hospitals also, there would be less and less justification for a person to spend crores in capitation fees etc to become a doctor. (If anybody says that he spends a crore as capitation fees to become a doctor with an avowed intention of ‘serving the poor’, I might as well accept that we all watch women’s beach volleyball to appreciate the sport!). I have used medicine as an example because it is a profession based on knowledge and very much prone for abuse in the form of “commercialization”. Once the coupling between higher education and remuneration is broken, the demand for seats in such educational institutions will reduce because people interested in the seat for its future earnings potential will not be concerned anymore. In such a scenario only persons who wish to practice medicine in a genuine manner will want to become doctors and those who spend a crore as an investment for the ‘doctor business’ will take their money elsewhere.

    The salutary effects of this system will be initially seen at the higher echelons. A person who wishes to obtain a Ph.D with just an idea of earning a higher salary will loose interest because the monetary benefit of doing a Ph.D is lost . This will open the field to persons genuinely interested in research and the productivity of such bonafide researchers will always be superior to the others for whom the Ph.D is just a means to a better pay scale. This will over a period of time trickle lower down the hierarchy so that in the end only persons genuinely interested in research or teaching will remain in the field.

    This system presupposes that brahmins will volunteer only for professions which were traditionally their preserve, like education. A brahmin volunteering as a laborer under the dhakshina scheme is unacceptable because it unfairly encroaches on the privileges of other communities.

    This system would, as Sri Vedam Gopal says, “rub Dharma in the right way” not only at an individual level by giving a chance for the brahmin to conform to his Dharma, but will also prevent misapplication of the varna instinct by the other communities in an inappropriate manner.

    The brahmin deserted his Dharma and set a bad example for the others. He now has a chance to follow a dharmic lifestyle in the manner explained above. Will the brahmin rise to the challenge?

    • senthil says:

      I had also thought the same.. the infrastructure, and operating expenses would be maintained by other communities.. and brahmins will focus on his job alone, free from administrative overhead.. This will create a right kind of balance, and be dharmic..

      • vv says:

        I disagree with this. Please allow me to explain my disagreement.
        A doctor profession is not an exclusive preserve of a brahmin. If a brahmin used the Dakshina system for medical practice, he is actually commiting a crime against other jatis who are also practicing medicine by taking their compensation away and giving it for dakshina. This is adharma and very sinful. Actually it makes very little sense.

        On the other hand, per the description and intent of brahmana varna, all that the society expects of a brahmin is preservation of the Veda and be a repository of other knowledge. Nothing more nothing less. In return for keeping the collective memory alive, the other varnas will support this brahmana varna with just enough for a vaidika practitioner to feed & clothe his family.
        Where does Medicine and its practice come into the picture? an extension can be argued that the brahmana varna could be the repository of the knowledge of medicine, but the actual practice should be performed by somebody else, and since medicine at its very basic level is a artisan profession, it should be technically be performed by a shudra. When a brahman engages in a practice that denies the shudra his rightfully high compensation, then per varna dharma, it is the brahmin who is breaking the rules.

        If high compensation is demanded by the shudra in practice of his profession (eg. medicine), then there will be enough shudras will take up the profession to normalize the compensation to a reasonable level. the same happens with carpentry, masonry etc.,so why should medicine be any different?
        The whole varna dharma rests on the fact that the 3 varnas exist to serve the numerically superior shudras. Not the other way around as is usually portrayed.
        Regards.

    • senthil says:

      And i would like stress that the initiative should come from brahmin.. when a brahmin whole heartedly offers his service on dakshina basis, other communities will come forward to help him to build necessary infrastructure..

      • panduranghari says:

        I agree. But not completely. The caste based reservations are not easy to give up for many too. It may not be as easy as it seems to ask Brahmins to give up the narrative when the reciprocation wont happen from the other side.

        Just a point of view.

      • @vv
        Thank you very much for your comments.
        I completely agree with your observation – brahmins should not offer their services on the basis of the dakshina system in situations which will unfairly encroach on the privileges of other communities. Such an act would certainly be adharma.

        I used medicine only as an example in the context of 1. delinking knowledge from earning money in certain situations and 2. as an example to highlight how other communities can misuse their varna instinct in an inappropriate manner, AND NOT to imply that doctoring be the exclusive preserve of brahmins.

        1. A brahmana can acquire medical knowledge i.e become a doctor and impart it to others as a teacher (in a dakshina system). It is certainly adharmic if he builds a private practice and links his medical knowledge to capability to earn money.

        2. A doctor always has vastly superior knowledge than a patient. Such a gross information asymmetry rarely exists in other common transactions like buying furniture, a shirt or brinjals in the market. In these situations a buyer also has some idea about the worth of the product being bought and is not completely dependent on the seller’s spiel. A patient (buyer in private medical practice) on the other hand is completely ignorant of his medical condition and is fully dependent of the doctor (the seller) to do the “correct” thing and not take advantage of his (patient’s) ignorance.
        Private / Corporate hospitals are built to make a profit and needless to say, the doctors work there to make a profit. Combine this with the ‘buyer’s (patient’s)’ extreme ignorance about the ‘transaction (treatment)’ and you have a situation ripe for abuse. A vaishya would see this as a God given opportunity to ‘create wealth’ and certainly would use his ‘commercial’ skills to make money, but that would be inappropriate in a profession that deals with sickness, pain, misery and death, isn’t it? I am unable to accept that making a profit (commercialization) of another’s misery by anybody can ever be Dharmic!

        In this context, if a brahmin doctor volunteered his services in the dakshina system, that would help prevent misuse of knowledge to make money in inappropriate situations. The brahmin initially did an adharmic act by hyperlinking his knowledge to make money and enjoy power. Let him now reverse the original adharmic act by volunteering his knowledge to the benefit of society WITHOUT putting a price tag on such an act! Such a gesture would definitely create respect in society towards brahmins.

        This example holds good only in private medicine as practiced now in India. A knowledge based profession with a near 100% information asymmetry left to the mercy of market forces will result only in abuse, at least in India!

        Not all professions can be considered the same nor are all professions open for commercialisation. Maybe Senthil can put up a separate post on “misapplication of their respective varna instinct by other communities”!

      • Murali says:

        It is interesting to find somebody outside the brahmin community advising what is dharma to brahmins (Unfortunate times for bharath).
        Your concept is almost same as Mahaperiyava’s teachings. Read the book ‘deivathin kural’ which is composed of his upanyasams and you will know our true history which no amount of research from experts can provide (Though according to you Kanchi mutt’s credibility is still under question).

        • senthil says:

          @murali,

          Will you accept if some one within the brahmin community teach dharma?

          @raghavan Srinivasan is a brahmin, who has explained with clarity what is a brahmana dharma.. will you discredit him too?

          Btw, Periyava need not be an expert on everything.. he is wrong in many things he wrote in his deivathin kural..

          • Murali says:

            @Senthil,

            Please let me know on which topics Periyava was wrong. I’m eager to know about them and great if you have proof for them..

          • senthil says:

            @murali,

            One main point i want to point out – Periyava said that there was no kshatriyas in TN and categorised most of ruling jathis as shudras.. that alienated everyone from mutt..

            for eg, the title “Pillai” used by pandya vellalars means “Son” of “pandya”.. its a tamil equivalent of “Rajput”.. but they were declared as shudras..

            Similarly, the nayakkar community who established the vijayanagara kingdom and who recovered madurai from turk invasion is categorised as shudras.. the term Nayakka itself meant ruler..

          • vyas says:

            //One main point i want to point out – Periyava said that there was no kshatriyas in TN and categorised most of ruling jathis as shudras.. that alienated everyone from mutt..//

            First of all show us the proof as Murali asked for. Has it been mentioned in Deivathin Kural? If so in which volume?

            Secondly just like the Brahmins who went out for govt jobs do not possess the credibility of true Brahmins, the same thing holds true for other castes as well. Most of the pillais were not kshatriyas during his time. What’s wrong in calling them shudras or pseudo kshatriyas?

            Secondly periyava was neither a historian nor a census taker. You can’t expect him to do that job. His sole interest was in bringing the Brahmins back to vaideeha dharma and to protect the vedas. He was very particular in not entertaining non-Brahmins into the mutt, which would pollute it forever. Today, for me everyone other than a Brahmin is a shudra irrespective of whether he is a kshatriya/vaishya, since the other varna professions have already been hijacked and polluted. Also you must understand that it was during periyava’s time that the DK movement was reigning high and the Brits had already destroyed varnashrama to a greater extent. He didn’t want the Brahmins to fall prey for that. Periyava’s ultimate goal was to embrace the Vedas and he was very specific that only Brahmins (strictly by birth) practice the Vedha adhyayana and not anyone else.

            In my opinion, in the future there will be only two varnas. The Brahmanas and the Shudras. Everyone other than the Brahmana will be termed as a Shudra. You simply cannot follow birth based identity discrimination on any of the other varnas besides just the Brahmanas. Kshatriyas and Vaishya varna professions have already been hijacked and polluted and you simply cannot restrict them based on birth based identity discrimination. The one and only varna that is still not polluted to a larger extent is the Brahmana varna and this needs to be protected at any cost. This is what periyava did (may be he looked deep into the future). His idea was definitely not to undermine other varnas, but he would have simply thought that there was no point in keeping on classifying non-Brahmin varnas.

            Pls don’t read between the lines. Understand things with the right context. While I too (like you) want Varnashrama dharma to come back in full swing in the future it’s something that’s never going to happen. The world is simply not prepared for that and will neither be prepared for it in the future.

          • senthil says:

            @vyas,

            /** Secondly periyava was neither a historian nor a census taker. You can’t expect him to do that job. His sole interest was in bringing the Brahmins back to vaideeha dharma and to protect the vedas
            **/

            That’s what i am too saying.. people are making his words as GOD’s words, that cannot be questioned..

            /** In my opinion, in the future there will be only two varnas. The Brahmanas and the Shudras.
            **/

            show me who is brahmana here? the dubashi who work for corporates??

            we kshatriyas were destroyed by the very same dubashis who you are supporting as authentic brahmana.. our autonomy and ruling power was destroyed.. our livelihood was destroyed.. it is these dubashis who forced us to migrate to cities.. it is these dubashis who unleashed macaulay education system..

            and today you say “there are no kshatriyas”, but these dubashis are qualified brahmanas..

          • vyas says:

            //show me who is brahmana here? the dubashi who work for corporates??//

            When did I say that the corporate Brahmins are the true Brahmins? I have myself accepted them as dubashis several times in this blog and consider me too in the lot. The question is these dubashi Brahmins can indeed become Vaideeha Brahmins at some point in their lifetime, but can a kshatriya/vaishya/shudra become a Brahmin?

            //we kshatriyas were destroyed by the very same dubashis who you are supporting as authentic brahmana//

            Blatantly wrong. You kshatriya kings were long defeated by the Brits. In fact, the Brahmins took up govt jobs at a large scale only because of the fall of our kings and kingdoms.

            //and today you say “there are no kshatriyas”, but these dubashis are qualified brahmanas..//

            When did I say they are qualified brahmanaas? I agreed to use the word dubashi against them. What else do you expect? How else do you want them to be called? Jaathi is in the DNA – you simply cannot erase it. You can utmost outcast them, but not change their jaathi. Only a dubashi Brahmin can become a vaideeha Brahmin, no other varna can, which is what mahaperiyava strived for. Also you conveniently forget about dubashi kshatriyas altogether. I can show thousands of them working for IT companies by leaving aside their traditional dharmic routines in their village. There will be cases like this in every jaathi/varna. You simply cannot generalize the issue for just the Brahmana varna.

        • Murali says:

          Senthil,

          Thrice a day Brahmins should do Sandhyavandhanam. If three generations of brahmins did not do this they cease to be called brahmins and classified as shudras.Similarly if you see mahabaratha arjuna(who is kshatriya) was taken to a far off place by krishna when abhimanyu was killed . It was the time of sandhi and he went on to do sandhyavandhanam (and you know subsequent story of a old father trying to commint suicide and he intervened..etc)
          Now tell me how many kshatriyas do sandhyavandhanam. We need to know the dharma defined for each jathi and then understand what periyava was trying to say.

          • senthil says:

            Pls study the life of traditional kings, who were dethroned and pushed in to extreme poverty today.. most traditional kings did sandhya vandhanam, and even now, some of the few remaining kings do it..

            the traditional families of nayakkar jathi still now do daily sandhi, and also chant vishnu sahasranamam.. they are staunch vaishnavas..

            Vellala jathis were mostly shakthi worshippers, and hence they do daily shiva pooja..

            the urban indians are completely ignorant of all these aspects of traditional society.. they are NOT even interested to know..

    • Vyasa2 says:

      @raghavan,Senthil
      /**The gesture of brahmins with high quality expertise (management, technical etc) volunteering their services to businesses and educational institutions operated by other communities on a dakshina system will effectively serve to delink merit and expertise from remuneration
      Suppose the brahmin doctor in our earlier example were to volunteer his services in a private (NOT a corporate) hospital on a dakshina basis, he would delink his medical expertise from his remuneration
      **/

      Sme cahllenge!! Same lyrics different tune.At the expense of adding naysayer accusation to my list let me add my two cents.
      I get the gist.You want to uncouple the society from money and for that you want to start with Brahmins.So if Brahmin rises to your challenge,comes forward to work for free or for dakshina which could be anywhere from 1000rs-5000 rs, even if other communities come forward to provide infrastructure , what will he feed himself,his family members?ideals?Lets assume somehow he will feed and survive,what about clothing,shelter,medication.children education etc? Now he is working for free doesn’t mean there will be education institutions willing to take in his kids for free and then what about kids marraige or do you have ideas for the said brahmins’s grihasta life too apart from dakshina style job?
      You guys are brainstorming ,coming with plausible , impractical solutions and if the propositions don’t work then of course Brahmins have not risen to the challenge.Well I’ll tell you a story,long before you threw the challenge, exactly like in your example, I know a Brahmin doctor in Andhra who ,may be out of brahmanism or his personal moraltiy spent his life practicing for needy.All on his own.Lived super modest life while he could have earned a lot.His children didn’t grow up to be doctors but settled in modest fashion.Good thing is AFAIK they never blamed their father for their modest life when actually he could have given them riches.Now that brahmin didn’t inspire forget about other non Brahmins but even other Brahmins.Why? Because they saw his life and who knows may be sometimes had to bail him out too.So what you are saying is highly impractical.Also you are asking them to work for free in laukik jobs meaning education,jobs that rotate around earning basic needs,comforts.As it is there are Brahmins who are doing adhytamik teaching and non teahcing jobs for free in spare time like scriptures,spirituality,jataka,ayur veda etc but are you even aware of such things happening? There are Brahmins who are supporting themselves and in their spare time helping people with sanatan dhrma aspects without charging,Those are the aspects,fields that should be offered for free like our ancestors did.English education,corporate jobs even when done for free is still great disservice and no better than working for money.If working for free is one aspect of dharma which you are are fixated on there is one more simple aspect.Vegetarianism.It is dharmic in many more ways than you can imagine,which Brahmins even many of the brand Brahmins practice.Yet not only did others not become vegetarians,have become more addicted to such foods than their ancestors and have jibed Brahmins as grass eaters for too long now.Ground realities are different from key board strokes.Talk about inspiration!!.
      TODO:teaching our people the sanatana dharma aspects, vedic aspects encouraging them to incorporate such values as much as possible, reviving traditional professions for all communities,decreasing dependency on corporates etc.Many require policy changes but some don’t.

    • venkat says:

      Raghavan’s conclusion that // The brahmin deserted his Dharma and set a bad example for the others. He now has a chance to follow a dharmic lifestyle in the manner explained above. Will the brahmin rise to the challenge? //// – is plainly wrong.

      The context of history of India in the last 800 years is important to know why Brahmins had to seek material /power etc… You have to remember that India faced the worst genocide at the hands of Muslims and had to constantly engage in war for all the time in one form or the other ( shivaji /sikhs/ vijayanagar etc..). During that period we lost Kshatriyas/ Rajputs, Vashiyas and Brahmins and even to some extent the shudras. That was a complete disorientation and concussion on India.
      Upon seeing the the British, the Brahmins saw a chance for re-birth of India and therefore used a thorn to remove a bigger thorn ( Islam).
      Re-building a civilisation is not easy – it will take time. – especially when they have to work against the tide – with all the DK idiots shooting in their foot.
      Yes, as a Brahmin, I am frustrated that I am not in a position to pursue my dharma. But I am putting use my english skills to benefit mankind in the best possible way.
      I am not a Sanskrit/ Tamil scholar, but by my actions I try to be as close as a I can to my Dharma and so are many Brahmins who serve India ( humanity in general).
      So the truth is some may have deserted the dharma but some are hybernating till the time is right to practice dharma in it’s true form.

      BTW – No one has the credibility to find fault with Brahmins and play victim politics.
      We need non-brahmins like Swami Vivekananda and not the likes of the DK scum bags.

      • For a hundred years after the death of Aurangzeb in 1707 till the Third Anglo-Maratha War in 1817-1818, the Marathas were the dominant political force in India. The British could control the Indian heartland only after the defeat of the Maratha Empire. (Maratha Peshwas were brahmins). Seen in this context, the contention that the brahmins used the british to displace the muslim rulers appears untenable.
        The fact that you are “frustrated” in not being able to follow your dharma makes you a ‘hindutva’ brahmin. You may still be able to follow your dharma to the extent possible in these modern times by adhering to some of the concepts detailed above (and in the previous post). Rather than “hibernating” and waiting for the time to become ripe, take the first step today! (I humbly request you not to misunderstand me – I am not proffering gratuitous advice!)
        The aim of this discussion is not mere brahmin bashing. Far from it. This is just an attempt to understand how things went so wrong. The past has to be fully understood and mistakes rectified, otherwise, the same errors will be repeated ad-infinitum!
        Every person being true to his own svadharma as per his svabhava is in itself the greatest service to mankind. Apart from this there is no separate or special need to ‘serve humanity’. It is as simple as that!

      • senthil says:

        this kind of emotional outburst may not help us.. no generalisations pls.. i had broken down the vague & generic brahmin identity in to more specific, which help me in understanding the issue.. i am not accusing English Educated Brahmins here.. what i said, that the mass enrollment of english educated brahmins was well used by DK scum bags, in a extremely successful way to attack the brahmins as a whole and thus able to destroy the sanctity of all temples in TN..

        • venkat says:

          Raghavan’s conclusion that // The brahmin deserted his Dharma and set a bad example for the others. He now has a chance to follow a dharmic lifestyle in the manner explained above. Will the brahmin rise to the challenge? //// – is plainly wrong. The context of history of India in the last 800 years [...]

          /////this kind of emotional outburst may not help us.. no generalisations pls.. i had broken down the vague & generic brahmin identity in to more specific, which help me in understanding the issue.. i am not accusing English Educated Brahmins here.. what i said, that the mass enrollment of english educated brahmins was well used by DK scum bags, in a extremely successful way to attack the brahmins as a whole and thus able to destroy the sanctity of all temples in TN..////////

          There was nothing emotional about my reply. I have stated fact that the Islamic genocide of Inda caused the Indian hemorrhage – the civilization almost became extinct. Forces of Vijayanagar, Marathas Sikhs, Peshawas etc were able to only wrest some life of respectability back to the Hindus. They had to fight for survival and had no means for Institution building – so do not blame them.- specificaly Peshawas.
          Just because DK scum bags are jealous of Brahmins doing something productive – like learning English and working hard to uplift their economic needs – does not mean we should stop doing productive things. I think it’s time to emphasize the Brahmins should pursue a DUAL strategy- ie. Be a dubashi to meet economic interests and simultaneously try to adapt to dharmic ways of life. “ kairai (rope) pidichuendu kenattril erungara madri” . Eventually when economic self sufficiency has been attained, and convincingly turned around other varnas to adopt their duties – Brahmins can finally go back to their roots.
          BTW – The discussions should always be focussed around solution to problems and not to finger pointing. I would love to hear from Raghavan/ Senthil how dharmic they are. It is important to establish credibility in such discussions. As for me I have established quiet a good control of my mind and not succumb to temptations and done a long list of good deeds ( nishkamyakarma)

          • /* their economic needs */ That’s the problem. Their needs outweighed the survival of others. Which was against the prevailing norms of their dharma. If you read Dharampal’s writings, he shows proof from British archives, the Brahmins were one of the most important group to be involved in teaching others, mostly on donations. Now when as a group, some of them migrate to British govt, naturally others who depended on them would’ve withered away / developed an aversion to Brahmins as a whole. Especially when during famines, tens of thousands of them died & their ex-teachers sitting in cities & enjoying British patronage.

      • senthil says:

        /** Just because DK scum bags are jealous of Brahmins doing something productive – like learning English and working hard to uplift their economic needs
        **/

        This is ridiculous.. today, if i join a missionary network, i would get well paid and get my economy uplifted.. will you accept it?

        • venkat says:

          /////This is ridiculous.. today, if i join a missionary network, i would get well paid and get my economy uplifted.. will you accept it?//////
          Dude, you have some serious problems with your thinking. — Economic upliftment can be accomplishied in many good and productive ways. — If you are a good human – good thought will come to you.
          Senthil, I thnik you are a Carzyyyyyy – I will not spend one more second here. It’s not woth my time.

      • senthil says:

        @venkat,
        /** Economic upliftment can be accomplishied in many good and productive ways. — If you are a good human – good thought will come to you. Senthil, I thnik you are a Carzyyyyyy – I will not spend one more second here. It’s not woth my time.
        **/

        I am sorry if i had hurted you.. and i will retract my comment if you felt that way..

        I could understand your point, that brahmins can become dubashi for survival, and then try to adapt to dharmic life style.. but how far is it feasible? Being dubashi and trying to be dharmic will cause a high internal Moral Conflict..

        My solution would be.. Instead of dubashis becoming dharmic, they can adapt to dubashi work style, but support the Vaidiha brahmins to follow their dharma in its original.. By this, they can avoid the moral, and ethical conflict they could face internally.

        • venkat says:

          ////My solution would be.. Instead of dubashis becoming dharmic, they can adapt to dubashi work style, but support the Vaidiha brahmins to follow their dharma in its original.. By this, they can avoid the moral, and ethical conflict they could face internally.////

          This is defnitely a good place to start. I think the next step of the conversation should be -” How do we organize the support to Vaidiha brahmins to ensure revival of dharma.? ” – start a seperate blog on that.question. – Discussing the solution side is more important than other ramblings.

      • senthil says:

        Thank you.. and your suggestion is very good.. i will start another thread soon..

    • Surya says:

      Raghavan, Excellent comment. It is this kind of thinking which is the foundation of recent Novartis judgement.

  11. Vyasa2 says:

    @Raghavan
    /**This whole discussion is based on the fact that once upon a time the then vaideeha brahmins abandoned their Dharma to become dubashi
    What holds true for the men also holds true for the women and what is considered adharma for a male is adharma for a female also.
    A vaideeha girl wishing to abandon her tradition is free to do it, but then she should be prepared for the consequences that would follow upon “rubbing Dharma the wrong way”. This same logic would apply for any profession she might choose.
    **/
    And what holds true for one man for violating his respective jathi dharma also holds true for another man for violating his respective jathi dharma.But lets hoodwink that fact as making others look like sinners is much enjoyable game than accepting our mistakes or coming up with practical solutions .Bickering among ourselves which has led to the current crisis,blaming each other has not yet stopped even after losing so much and pity is even if there are few who want to think reasonably there are many more who want to take advantage of the situation for their vested interests be it ego assuaging or financial benefits.It sure is a uphill task ahead!!.
    /**
    Applying the rules of one model to the other will always result in bewilderment.
    **/
    How come this esteemed rationality flies out of window when analyzing Brahmins situation who despite being class one victims of this model juxtapose ,survived and are still sticking to their dharma in many aspects if not all aspects ?

    • senthil says:

      /** And what holds true for one man for violating his respective jathi dharma also holds true for another man for violating his respective jathi dharma.But lets hoodwink that fact as making others look like sinners is much enjoyable game than accepting our mistakes or coming up with practical solutions
      **/

      I have already conveyed.. me and most of my generation came out of farming, bcoz, of the former dubashi brahmins, who decided and implemented the monstruous Industrialisation policy of supposedly free india.. you wont agree that..

      Today, all traditional professions were extremely suppressed & oppressed by indian govt, including the temples which were life line of Vaideeha brahmins.. and who constitute this india?

  12. ராமசந்திரசேகரன் says:

    என் 24-12-12 மடலுடன் சேர்த்து படிக்கவும்.
    இந்த 350 வருஷங்களின் விஞ்ஞான கண்டு பிடிப்புகளெல்லாம் மேற்கத்திய நாட்டவர்களான ஐரோப்பியர்கள் என்பதை யாரும் மறுக்க முடியாது.ஆக அவர்களைத்தான் ஞான சித்தன் நியமித்துள்ளான்.இவர்கள்எத்துணை
    ஆண்டுகாலம்இவ்விஞ்ஞானத்துக்கு பொறுப்பாக்கிறுக்கிறார் என்பது
    ஞானசித்தனுக்கு மட்டும் தான் தெரியும்.அதேபோல் பிராம்மணர்களின் பணி கருமசித்தன் காலத்துடன் முடிவடைந்து போயிற்று.அதனால் வர்ணாஸ்ர முறையும் முடிவுக்கு வந்தது.திரு வள்ளளார் அவர்கள் தம் 6ம் திருமுறையில் கலியுகம் கி.பி 1900ல் முடிவடையும் என்று கணித்துள்ளார்.ஸத் குரு ஜிக்கி வாசுதேவ் அவர்களும் இதை உறுதி செய்கிறார்.அதற்குத்தகுந்தாற்போல்
    கருமசித்தனின் கருமகாரியங்கள் பெருமளவு குறைந்து ஞானசித்தனின் விஞ்ஞான வளர்ச்சி 18/19ம் நூற்றாண்டிலே தான் அபரிமிதமாக நடந்தது.
    எப்போதும் பிராம்மணர்கள் தான் தர்மத்துக்கு காவலன் என்று சொல்வது உகந்தது அல்ல.பிராம்மணரே தர்மத்தைவிட்டு விலகிப்போய்விட்டனர் அதனால் தான் உலகில் அநியாங்கள் தலைவிரித்து ஆடுகின்றது என்றது போன்ற கருத்தை விதைக்கிறது ஸ்ரீனிவாசராகவனின் இக்கட்டுரை.தர்மம் வர்ணாஸ்ரமத்தின் ஏகபோக உரிமையும் அல்ல.சிவன்/கடவுள் தான் தர்மம். திருவள்ளுவர் காலத்தில்
    இருந்த பிராம்மணர்களுக்கோ/அதற்குமுன்னம் இருந்தவர்களுக்கோ
    அறு தொழில் தான் அவர்களின் பணி.அப்பணி இப்போது தேவையில்லை என்பது காலதேவனின் முடிவு.அதேபோல் ஐரோப்பியர்களின் பணியை முடிவு செய்ய காலதேவனுக்குத்தான் அதிகாரம்.

    • This article tries to explore how a certain group of brahmins – NOT ALL – disavowed their Dharma. I have also tried to explore whether the adharmic acts of a few brahmins did facilitate in any manner the other communities in deserting their Dharma. I must humbly reject the suggestion that the intention of this article is to posit that only brahmins, to the exclusion of others, are responsible for the sustenance of Dharma, and, all the ills of society be imputed on the brahmins who left their dharma. Dharma is not a one man (one community) show. Every person (to whatever community he may belong) has an equal responsibility to adhere to Dharma, albeit in compliance with his svabhava.
      I have also tried to explain how a brahmin can adapt to ‘modern’ circumstances, because as long as society exists, there will be need for the six services provided by a brahmin.
      The varnasrama system did help in creation of a self sustainable, settled society in a “secular” manner. Modern Western societies do not appear to be self sustainable and require periodic infusions of capital (looted wealth) and labour (slaves) to function. Science (knowledge) is used by the West only as a means to aggrandize other civilisations. It is indeed truly ‘maya’ to be bedazzled by the present misuse of knowledge by the West and proceed to justify its abuse with convoluted logic. What is not self sufficient cannot be sustained and lacks Dharma – ‘that which sustains’. I would make bold to say that in the context of settled self sustaining societies, the Varnasrama system has exclusive rights on Dharma!

    • vyas says:

      ராமசந்திரசெகரன் அவர்களே,

      விஞானம் 1900′இல் தான் வளர்ந்தது என்று சொல்வது சரியல்ல. அதே போல் கடந்த 350 ஆண்டுகளில் ஐரோப்பியர்கள் தான் அத்துணை விஞான கண்டுப்பிடிப்புகளையும் கண்டுப்பிடிதார்கள் என்று சொல்வதும் தவறு. இப்போழுதிருக்கின்ற பல விஞானம் சார்ந்த கண்டுப்பிடிப்புகள் நமது நாட்டுலேயும் ஒரு காலத்தில் இருக்கத்தான் செய்தது. ஆனால் அவை எல்லோரும் உபயோகபடுத்தும் சாதாரண கருவிகளாக இருக்கவில்லை. இன்னும் சொல்லப்போனால் பெருமளவு விஞானம் தொழில்நுட்பமாக மாற்றப்படவே இல்லை. அது ஏன் என்பதற்கு இன்றைய சீர்கேடுகளே சான்று. ஆரியபட்டர் கண்டுபிடித்த பல கணித கண்டுப்பிடிப்புகளை ஐரோப்பியர்கள் இங்கிருந்து திருடிசென்றுள்ளனர். இதற்க்கு பல ஆதாரங்கள் இருக்கின்றன. குறிப்பாக சொல்லப்போனால் சையின் தீடா காஸ் தீடா போன்றவைகள் இந்தியாவில் தான் முதன் முதலில் கண்டுபிடிக்கப்பட்டது. இப்படி பல விஷயங்கள் சொல்லிக்கொண்டே போகலாம். ஆனால் அதற்காக ஐரோப்பியர்களின் விஞாணத்தை நான் குறைத்து மதிப்பிடமாட்டேன். அவர்களின் பல கண்டுப்பிடிப்புகளுக்கு வித்து இங்கிருந்து தான் எடுக்கப்பட்டது.

    • senthil says:

      நான் இந்த மாதிரி கட்டுரை எழுதுவதும் கால தேவனின் முடிவு என்று வைத்துக் கொள்ளுங்களேன்.. நான் சொல்வது நடந்தாலும் அது கால தேவனின் முடிவு என்றே வைத்துக் கொள்ளுங்களேன்..

      இன்று நீங்கள் வின்ஞானம் என்று சொல்வது, கார்ப்பரேட் கம்பெனிகள் உலகத்தை சுரண்டி பணம் சேர்க்க, நடத்தப்படுவது.. இது தர்மமுமல்ல.. ஞானமுமல்ல..

  13. ராமசந்திரசேகரன் says:

    @செந்தில்;1)பெண்ணுக்கு திருமண வயது 18 ஆக்கியது முதற்கொண்டு இன்னும் பலப்பல உலக நிகழ்ச்சிகள் காலதேவனின் சுழற்சியில் தான் நடக்கிறது,நீங்கள்
    காலமாற்றத்தையும்/வாழ்க்கையையும் கூர்மையாக கவனித்திருப்பீர்-
    களெயானால் மனிதன் ஒரு ” puppet in the hands of certain higher agencies.free will is not free.will,will not change the course of divine(கால தேவன்) plan..Egoism/ignorance will make us to say that man can modify the results but we ‘ve only elbow room to operate free will.”
    கார்ப்பரெட் கம்பனிகள் சுரண்டல் மட்டுமல்ல/நேற்று வரை இருந்த அரசியல்வாதிகள்/இன்று இன்னும் கொள்ளை அடிக்கும் அரசியல் கட்சிகள் ஆகியன இக்காலகட்டத்தின் “தர்மம்”.அதை நீங்களும்/நானும் மாற்றமுடியாது.
    நாம்/நீங்கள் வெகு சிலர் இம்மாதிரி “நன்னெறி/தர்மத்தையும்” பற்றி நம் வாழ்க்கையும் நடத்திக்கொண்டு கவலைப்பட்டுக்கொண்டிருக்கிறோம் அல்லவா அந்த ஒட்டு மொத்த எண்ணலைகளின் பிரதிபலிப்பாகத்தான் சில மானிடர்களை (உ.ம் காந்திஜி) காலதேவன் அவன் நினைக்கும் சமயத்தில் உருவாக்குகிறான்.
    2)ஞானசித்தனின் இவ்விஞ்ஞான வளர்ச்சி காலத்தின் Syllabus பௌதீகம்,
    ரசாயனம்,கணக்கியல்,மருத்துவம்,விண்வெளி ஆராய்ச்சி,விஞ்ஞான வணிகம்,கணினிஅறிவியல்/எல்லாப்பொறியியல்கள் மற்றும் பல.இக்காலத்தின் ஆரம்பத்தில் கலைகள்,மொழிகள்,இலக்கியங்கள்,வரலாறு என்றிருந்தது.
    ஆனால் இப்போது மக்கள் அதிகம் இதில் நாட்டம் இடுவதில்லை.அதேபோல் கரும சித்தன் காலத்தின் Syllabus வர்ணாஸ்ரமுறை மூலமாக இலக்கியங்கள்,
    இதிஹாஸங்கள்,புராணங்கள்,வேதங்கள்,ஆகமவிதிகள்,கோவில்நிர்மாணக்
    கலை,தத்துவங்கள்,ஆயுர்வேதம்/சித்தமருத்துவம்,ஆயகலைகள்,கல்செதுக்குதல்/வெட்டுதல்கலைகள்,மொழிவளர்ப்பு,சங்கீதமுறைக்கலைகள்,தெருக்கூத்து,
    ஆகியன.அது அறவேமுடிவுக்குவந்தது.அவ்வர்ணாஸ்ர முறையில் பிராம்மணர்களுக்குத்தான் கடுமையான விதிகள் அளிக்கப்பட்டது.வேதங்களின் முதல் 2 பகுதிகளான கர்மகாண்டம்,ஆரண்யகாண்டம்(உபாசனம்) தான் கருமசித்தன் காலத்தின் பின்பகுதியில் பிராம்மணர்கள் பிழைப்பிற்காக அதிகஅளவில் ஈடுபட்டு “தக்ஷிண”முறை அமுலாக்கப்பட்டது.மேற்கூறிய 2 பகுதிகளும் மற்றும் வர்ணாஸ்ர முறையும் இன்று அடியோடு மறைந்தது.
    பிராம்மணர்களின் பணி முடிவுக்கு வந்து விட்டது.அதனால் தான்
    கலியுகம் முடியும் (கி.பி.1900) தருவாயில் திரு வள்ளலார் அவர்கள் புராணங்கள்/இதிகாசங்கள்/ வேதங்களின் முதல் 2 பகுதிகளான கர்மகாண்டம்,ஆரண்யகாண்டம்(உபாசனம்) (முக்கியமாக கர்ம காண்டம்)
    ஆகியவை பொய்யுலகப்பிராச்சாரம் என்று ஒதுக்கச்சொல்லி உள்ளார்கள்.
    ஆனால் ஆகம சாஸ்த்திர முறைப்படி கட்டப்பட்ட ஆலயங்களை புறக்கணிக்கக்கூடாது என்றும் செப்பி உள்ளார்.பிராம்மணர்கள் இன்று பல்வேறு தொழில் செய்து நிறைய சம்பளங்களைப்(“தக்ஷிணா)ப்பெற்றுக்கொண்டு “அவர்களின்” தர்மத்துக்கு விரோதமாக வாழ்க்கை நடத்துகிறார்கள் என்று ஸ்ரீநிவாசராகவன் எழுதுவது அவர் எதையும் சரியாகப்புரிந்து கொள்ளாமல் எழுதிஉள்ளார் என்றே காட்டுகிறது.அவர் நினைப்பது/எழுதுவது
    பிராம்மணன் எக்காலத்திலும் கருமசித்தன் காலமுறையிலே வாழ வேண்டும்.மற்றும் பிராம்மணன் தான் தர்மத்தின் காவலாளி என்று சிந்திப்பது சரி அல்ல.வேறு விதத்தில் சொல்ல வேண்டுமானல் எவனெவன்
    “ஸ்ரீனிவாசராகவன் சொல்கின்ற தர்மத்தை” காக்கிறானோ அவன்
    தான் பிராம்மணன் என்ற ஏற்கமுடியாத புதிய விளக்கத்தை அளித்துள்ளார்.
    வேதங்களின் உபநிஷத்துக்களில் சொல்லப்பட்டுள்ள பிராஹ்மண்/பிரம்மஹண்/பிராம்மணா ஆகியவற்றில் குழம்பிப்போயுள்ளார் என்றே இது காட்டுகிறது.
    ஞானகாண்டம்(உபநிஷத்துக்கள்)மட்டும் எக்காலத்திற்கும் பொருந்தும் என்று சிலர் கூறுகிறார்கள்.ஆனால் நடைமுறையில் இல்லை எனவே சொல்ல வேண்டும்?

  14. sleeping8 says:

    NOBODY HAS THE BLOODY RIGHT TO DISCUSS ABOUT ME OR MINE -MY BELIEFS, AND TACIT HATE MONGERING ON MY DHARMA – RELIGION REFER TO RULES AND TERMS OF SERVICE WORDPRESS.COM

  15. vv says:

    @ Raghavan Srinivasan Garu,
    There would be no issue with a Brahmin doing a pro-bono type of service, just like the medical practitioners of the pre-British period, but times have changed. A reasearch facility funded by Kshatra money & Vysya donation could be a better place for a brahmin to work on research in medicine without any regard to the marketability of the research.

    In spite of what you claim, the medical services today are much closer to carpentry or selling vegetables. Those that have common sense can figure out if the Vysya hospital is messing with them or not.
    If not, the rest of the population will know pretty soon if the they need to trust a particular hospital or not.
    Either way, things will revert to the way of the Universe pretty soon. Those that were dumb enough not to have common sense will be removed from the population and those that were smart enough will survive.

  16. Shan says:

    I wish to disagree with some aspects of this article

    In the 1911 census, for male literacy in Madras Presidency

    Brahmins = 75% literate in Tamil, 18% literate in English
    Chettiar = 37% literate in Tamil. 3% literate in English
    Velala, Nadar, Vanniar = 25% literate in Tamil. 2% literate in English

    The interesting fact is that Vanniars and Nadars, both MBC castes had the same literacy as Velala. a forward caste

    In the 1911 census for male literacy in Mumbai presidency

    Brahmins = 60% literate in regional language, 15% literate in English
    Lingayat = 15% literate in regional language, 1% literate in English
    All other castes were 5% literate in regional language and 0.1% literate in English

    At this time in rest of India in british direct rule, male literacy was about 5% in regional language and 0.1% in english

    So by 1911. brahmin male literacy in both Mumbai and Madras in regional language was 4 times the male literacy in English, and no sign of abandoning regional language

    Lets do a simple algebra calculation for Madras Presidency, 1911 census

    3% brahmins x 18% english literacy = 54
    97% non-brahmin x 1% english literacy = 97
    Total = 97 + 54 = 151
    Brahmin % = 54 / 151 = 34%

    In any senior job under british needed to be english literate and the expected brahmin % is 34%

    Next. if we say that the educational requirement for judge etc under british rule was a college degree, BA in english medium. then the brahmin fraction was around 75% and this would be directly reflected into 75% judges being brahmin

    Next, tamil brahmins, have won 3 out of the 4 Indian science Nobels. The math whiz Ramanujam and Chess world champion, Vishwanathan Anand, and very strongly represented in Indian nuclear program, and in any open competition world wide shine, and again this reflects in Judge posts

    Next, the Indian independence movement was brahmin led in Madras Presidency and while there were several non-brahmin leaders like Kamaraj and C.Subramaniam

    The Dravidianist movement was british inspired, And Periyar asked the british to stay back and in 1947, Karunanidhi openly sloganned for Jinnah and Pakistan.

    • senthil says:

      the british ICS exam was merti based, and brahmins could not be matched by other aspirants.. just english literacy alone is not a benchmark for government post..

      also, the 18% of english literate brahmins should be translated in to actual numbers.. considering that the population of tamilnadu was 20 lakh during 1900, the 5% brahmins constitute around 1,00,000 and 18% of this 1 lakh brahmins comes around 18,000 brahmins, highly literate in english.. and out of this, around 100 or some managed to get to government posts.. and this small number of dubashi brahmins, became the root cause of anti-brahmin movement..

      • Shan says:

        This brahmin non-brahmin discrepancy existed all over South Indua, and while reservations eventually came, the anti-brahmin, anti-hindu, anti-sanskrit, anti-north Indian, pro-british, pro-muslim, pro-xtian , rhetoric and dravidian ideology was solely limited to Tamil Nadu.

        The Reddy and Kamma do very well in open competition, because they decided to focus on education than the cheap and easy targeting of brahmins
        In coastal Karnataka, the brahmins are well integrated with the Bunt-Shetty and backward caste Fishermen and never targeted

      • Shan says:

        I also want to add this

        The dravidian movement targeted Vaidik brahmins
        Sacred threads were cut, kudumi was cut, Ganesh idol destroyed, Ram temples attacked
        Vegetarianism mocked. Beef eating encouraged, Brahmin priests lost monopoly on temple jobs

        Whereas the dravidian movement loves dubashi brahmins. Naxal Ram, a beef eater has married his daughter into Karunanidhi family

        Lots of dravidian leaders – Chidambaram, Azhagiri etc. ,marry their sons to daughters of dubashi brahmins. No vedic brahmin will marry his daughter to them

      • Shan says:

        I have some data from the California National Merit List for 2012
        This selects the top 1% of 12th grade students, based on PSAT and 2000 students are selected

        By doing a name analysis
        Jews = 125
        South Indian Brahmins = 89
        North Indian Brahmins = 19
        North Indian Upper Caste Non-Brahmins = 40
        Nair = 4
        Syrian Xtian = 1
        Telegu Dravidians = 17
        Kannadiga Dravidian = 1
        Tamil Dravidian = 6
        Patel = 3
        SIkh = 4

        This sort of replicates the ICS examination results
        The interesting data point is that in North India, there is no gap between brahmin and non-brahmin upper castes, and no scope for anti-brahmin movement led by upper castes

      • senthil says:

        @shan,

        Thanks for the statistics.. good insight.. as you said, only in tamilnadu, the anti-brahminism clicked.. the reason is that tamilnadu is under direct british control, whereas, karnataka was under mysore kingodm, kerala under travancore, andra under nizam.. Madras presidency, and bengal presidency were the worst affected by famines created by direct british..

  17. Shan says:

    Karnataka offers an interesting contrast

    Reservations there are 73%, above the 69% in TN

    The brahmins there are happy with it. The 73% has a 5% sub-quota for poor of all castes and a 10% quota for women of all castes, which brahmins tend to corner most

    In karnataka, a brahmin can be politically prominent, whereas not possible in TN, JJ came under MGR help

    Most of the non-brahmin colleges tend to hire lots of brahmin teachers and professors

    The Mysore Wodeyars were prominent in VHP, no TN politician gets close to BJP

    This is what really happened

    The patrons of the brahmins were the local rajahs, such as Thevar, Maravar, castes, who became classified as criminal tribes by the british. The brahmins lost patronage. The british looted temples and temple land, which cut brahmin income, The british shut down the native educational system, which again impoverished brahmins. This forced the brahmins into white collar jobs.
    Even in 1911, Brahmins who went to UK for college were boycotted by the vedic brahmins on return and often had to move to new towns where they were not known.

    It is interesting to note that the leaders of the dravidian movement
    Periyar – Kannadiga
    Karunanidhi , Vaiko – Telegu
    MGR – Malayali Menon, who had brahmin blood, due to Nambudhiri brahmins having sex with Nair women for centuries

    Whereas the Thevars were not so keen on it, because they were turned off by the atheism of the movement. The dravidian movement in TN was primarily a Mudaliar / Velala movement and did not include MBC segment Thevars, Vanniars and did not include Dalits

    I dont recall Muthuramalinga Thevar ever ranting against Hindu gods

    Even more tragic, the tamils have disowned 1000 years of tamil history from 300 AD to 1300 AD. CNA mocked Kamba Ramayanam as Kamba rasam
    Sangam Tamil was a heavily buddhist and Jain society. The bhakti period of Tamil history has been wiped out and the revival of Hinduism has been deliberately underplayed

    The false propoganda of dravidianism is that the Aryan brahmins toppled the tamil kingdoms
    The truth is, in Jaffna, the Portuguese hanged the last Tamil king, also named Senthil and in TN, Malik Kafur toppled the Pandya kings

    There is a sanksrit poem ‘ Madura Vijayam’ written by Ganga Devi, the wife of Kempanna, the Vijayanagar prince who liberated TN from muslim rule

    Finally thanks to DNA, the falsity of the Dravidian movement can be exposed

    Most male Tamil Dravidians ( 40% ) have the L1 marker, which is not exactly a south Indian marker, but rather a coastal mariner marker. L1 extends all along the coast to Syria.
    L1 was and is present in Gujurat / Indus Valley, along with other markers

    Interestingly, South Indian brahmins – Maharashtra, Goa and 4 southern states also have L1 about 17% , whereas North Indian brahmins have just 5% L1.

    Most Backward caste North Indians dont have L1, they carry H1 marker ( 40% )
    and are not related to Dravidian south Indians. Whereas the standard Aryan Invasion theory claims that Dravidians were driven to South India and enslaved in North India

    Even more, the Aryan marker is R1A, common to brahmins, ( 40% ), upper caste North Indians and Russians ( 40% ). The earliest form of R1A is with the Chenchu, a dravidian tribe of Andhra about 15000 years ago

  18. Shan says:

    In most states of the USA, roughly the following pattern shows up in National Merit list for Indian winners

    South Indian brahmin = 35%
    North Indian brahmin = 10%
    Upper caste non-brahmin North Indian = 25%
    Telegu Dravidian = 10%
    Tamil Dravidian = 5%
    Nair = 5%
    Patel / Sikh = 5%
    Indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi muslim = 5%

    These kids are all well fed, from upper middle class families, and in state after state, the similar pattern holds. One could argue that these mirror the caste breakdown in high level posts under british rule, 100 years ago. and the disproportionate South Indian brahmin numbers in both scenarios.

    As far as casteism in 1911, brahmins were no more and no less casteist than other dravidian castes and never had the muscle to do any atrocity

    Jealousy is a very ugly emotion, and the british fanned the flames

    In 1911, the brahmins were still middle class, they were not landlords and not rich like Chettiars

    I also question the role of the Velala Adheenams.
    They are generally absent in the anti-conversion movement of VHP
    In Hinduism, next to Sanskrit, Tamil is the second sacred language, and Tamil has the most number of Hindu religious texts next to Sanskrit

    In Islam, Arabic is main , but Persian is the second most important religious language
    In Hinduism, Sanskrit is main, but Tamil is the second most important religious language

    The Velala Adheenams were formed during the bhakti movement, in mutual alliance with vedic brahmins to revive Hinduism. The Adheenams kept quiet when Periyar slippered Hindu gods, broke Hindu idols, encouraged beef eating. Being Tamil scholars, the adheenams were well aware of the ancient and mutual relationship between Sanskrit and Tamil

    The dravidian movement trashed the tamil bhakti texts, which the Adheenams are supposed to preserve and propogate. They have no use for the Shaivite and Vaishnavite Tamil saints and indulge in de-sankritising tamil

    I have not seen one Adheenam criticise the anti-Hindu excesses of the dravidian movement

  19. ks says:

    senthil … Interesting one… Was English Educated, BRahmins in GOvernment Jobs the root cause for Dravidian Movement?” YES…..

    Brahmins were the first to come out of the villages due to the loss of patronage.
    root cause of dravidian movement — people could not tolerate this particular aspect
    I) brahmins who were dependent on them became the masters overnight… this aspect became a sort of hatred…
    2) the biggest growth in dravidian movement , I would say happened in the cauvery delta region which had the highest concentration of brahmins,. even now the this region has good supporters for dravidian movemtn..

  20. Shan says:

    I am going to show a parallel in rise of anti-jewish sentiment among the germans

    Given German IQ = 100
    Jewish IQ = 115
    standard deviation = 15

    If the cut off to enter a certain profession / college etc was set as a IQ barrier

    IQ barrier = 115
    3 % Jews x 50 % pass = 150
    97% Germans x 15% pass = 1450
    Jewish fraction = 150 / 1600 = 9.5%

    IQ barrier = 130
    3% Jews x 15% pass rate = 45
    97% Germans x 2% pass rate = 194
    Jewish Fraction = 45 / 239 = 19%

    IQ barrier = 145 ( IIT level )
    3% Jews x 2% pass rate = 6
    97% germans x 0.1% pass rate = 9.7
    Jewish fraction = 6 / 16 = 38%

    IQ barrier = 160 ( Nobel level )
    3% jews x 0.1% pass rate = 0.3
    97% german x 0.003 = 0.3
    Jewish Fraction = 50%

    As the passing bar is made harder, due to the nature of the bell curve, the jewish fraction kept rising naturally

    The ICS exam for judges etc was like an IIT exam equivalent, and had thousands applying for a few slots. Add to this the 10X brahmin advantage in English literacy

  21. Shan says:

    Indian nuclear test team for 1974 test

    Bhabha Atomic Research Center (BARC) Team

    BARC Team Lead: Raja Ramanna, Director of BARC – Kannada Brahmin
    Team Second-in-Command: P.K. Iyengar (responsible for the actual manufacture of the device) – Tamil Brahmin
    Nuclear System Design Team
    Team lead: Rajagopala Chidambaram – Tamil Brahmin
    Satinder Kumar Sikka – Punjabi Khatri Merchant

    Electronic Detonation System Team
    Team lead: Pranab Rebatiranjan Dastidar – Bengali Brahmin
    Sekharipuram Narayana Aiyer Seshadri – Tamil Brahmin

    Neutron Initiator Team
    Vasudev K. Iya – Iyengar Tamil Brahmin
    T.S. Murthy – Tamil Brahmin
    C.V. Sundaram – Tamil Brahmin
    Plutonium Core Fabrication Team
    Team lead: P.R. Roy – Bengali Brahmin

    System Integration Team
    Team lead: Jitendra Nath Soni – Punjabi khatri merchant
    Anil Kakodkar – Maharashtrian brahmin

    High Explosive Implosion System Team
    Team lead: Nagapattinam Sambasiva Venkatesan, Director of Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory (TBRL) – Tamil Brahmin
    Muthuswamy Balakrishnan – Tamil Brahmin

    Detonator Development Team
    Team lead: Waman Dattatreya Patwardhan at the Explosive Research and Development laboratory (ERDL) – Maharashtrian Brahmin
    S.N. Joshi – Maharashtrian Brahmin

    Total Individuals = 16
    Madras Presidency Brahmins = 9

    Same sort of dominance in nuclear blast team in 1974 as in Judge posts in 1911
    Why was there no Dravidian protest against this ?
    Another fact is most of the dravidian leaders keep a brahmin accountant, lawyer and doctor for private use

    It is not that easy to come up with this design on their own, without modern facilities
    And this would not have been possible without learning english and modern western education

    Pakistan and North Korea got a chinese design

    China got a Russian design

    Russia stole a US-UK design

    Israel got a French design

    Iran, Iraq etc couldnt come up with this yet, despite oil wealth

    • There is no problem with Brahmins acquiring any kind of knowledge, religious and or secular (sciences). The problem arises when Brahmins use this knowledge (both religious and secular) to usurp the purusharthas of the other communities. As long as this knowledge is not used to dominate other communities the Brahmins will be called by the honorific title “swamy” by the other communities. Even the King is not addressed by the term “swamy”.

    • senthil says:

      Excellent compilation of data.. thanks for sharing.. so this gives an overview of brahmin’s presence in beurocracy too.

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – You are reacting to Shan’s comment as if you never knew about this before. It’s a known fact that In the past the Brahmins dominated in every govt sector where highly qualified English educated personnel were required. Out of the available small number of English educated Indian elites in those days, the Brahmin representation was pretty high, which is why they could be found in almost every govt sector in those days. It’s not that the govt preferred to have Brahmins alone for those jobs, rather out of the available few fit people at that time, the Brahmins outperformed everyone else. One other important reason was that the Brahmins unlike the other higher caste Hindus didn’t have their family business to run, which is why they always resorted to Govt jobs predominantly. How can you blame the Brahmins for this? Even the other caste Hindus would have done the same thing if they had been in the position of Brahmins back in those days. Are they not doing the same right now? Let’s stop this non-sense of blaming the Brahmins alone for all bad things that happened. If not for the DK, the Brahmins wouldn’t have got so much hype and attention. The DK’s false propaganda against the Brahmins helped significantly to hide the atrocities done by higher caste non-Brahmin Hindus. While the Brahmins certainly hold responsibility for leaving their dharma, they alone cannot be made responsible for the same. The role played by other upper caste Hindus is significant and needs to be thoroughly examined.

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,
        We did not get such statistics earlier. that’s why i appreciated him..

        reg your other things, we discussed this in detail so far.. we are only doing causal analysis.. the root cause of dravidian movement..

      • Shan says:

        Senthil, this is not bureucracy, for that you can hire anyone. even a bihari
        India / Hindus would not have a nuclear deterrent without the Madras Presidency Brahmin

        Another data point for you to ponder over. The US Ballistic missile defence team was led by Dr,Shiva Subrahmanya, another Madras Presidency brahmin. Here he was protecting US from nuclear attack, If he had not migrated away due to hostile locals, He could have given a nuclear shield to India instead of US

    • Surya says:

      And stupid Indira Gandhi was ready to share this hardwork to Pakistan!
      http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wikileaks-cables-indira-gandhi-offered-…/1100283/

  22. vedamgopal says:

    Mr.Shan is providing very interesting data’s and thanks for the same. In TN every boady says that because of Brahmin dominance in Govt services the dravidian movement was started here. Same stick is also applicable in Sri Lanka where because of cast Hindus dominance in Govt services (mainly vellala, pillai cast ) the enimity of shinghala tamilians started. Do you agree Mr.Senthil ?

    • senthil says:

      Yes.. i completely agree.. because eelam tamils sided with british (in my term become dubashi tamils), and wielded disproportionate influence in srilankan beurocracy, the SL issue started..

      • Shan says:

        In Tamil Nadu, the congress was overwhelmingly brahmin led – Rajaji, Sathyamurthy etc
        The dravidian Justice Party was british funded and their members got titles like Raja, and Right Honorable. In Tamin Nadu, not only was the top bureacracy heavily brahmin, the freedom fighters were also heavily brahmin and Periyar asked the british not to go and Karunanidhi raised slogans for Pakistan. In Sri Lanka, there was no freedom movement, they got independence on a platter

  23. vyas says:

    /Another data point for you to ponder over. The US Ballistic missile defence team was led by Dr,Shiva Subrahmanya, another Madras Presidency brahmin. Here he was protecting US from nuclear attack, If he had not migrated away due to hostile locals, He could have given a nuclear shield to India instead of US//

    Shan – What are you trying to convey from the above message. Shiva Subrahmanya may be a person of Indian origin but he must be a U.S Citizen now, and he’ll obviously work for the benefit of the United States. There are several people like him who hail from several other countries but work for United States having become citizens of the same. In my opinion severe brain drain started to happen in India only after introduction of reservation system. What do you expect the Brahmins to do when they are deprived of education in their own land? This is when migration of Brahmins started. Some migrated to other parts of the country and some, to other countries.

  24. Shan says:

    Another data point for Senthil

    1951, Dorairajan case,

    The court is told that if the Communal GO had not existed and selection to the roughly 400 seats in government engineering colleges were made solely on “merit”, i e, in terms of a ranking based on the marks obtained in the qualifying examination, then brahmins would have obtained 249 ( 62% of seats ) seats instead of the 77 they were allotted under their communal quota.

  25. swami (not Subbu Swamy :) ) says:

    Senthil,

    I heard in one of the Rajiv malhotra video from a christian convert (professor) that brahmins owned (or were given) lots of land in travancore area. They gained more power and started oppressing the other jaathis and thats the reason for his family gettting converted.

    Is that true? Can you please share some information on this?

    If oppression happened this way its definitely wrong on the brahmins and cannot be justified. How do we handle this issue?

    • vyas says:

      While I agree that the Brahmins did dominate in certain areas it is completely unacceptable to put all the blame on them. The real question of this so called oppression is true of any caste and not just Brahmins. Anyone who was an owner of vast lands back then dominated. This is so true even today of politicians who continue to dominate with vast ownership of (abducted) lands. Today we have various methods of fighting against these people who dominate but back then there were not much options and the missionaries being opportunists used this chance and converted them. This worked since the missionaries themselves were huge land owners registered in the name of the church. I owe the root of all these issues to the collapse of our village administrative system and the fall of our kingdoms.

      • swami says:

        Correct reply vyas. but i am still not convinced. this argument would be so weak to justify the mistake of brahmins then.

      • swami says:

        Senthil/Vyas/Others,

        Any society is not perfect. I assume we can include Dharmic society in this list as well.
        With that said, If you were asked to confess 5 mistakes committed by each Varna before mughal rule, 5 more before British rule and 5 more mistakes committed by each Varna after the british rule (post independence), what would that be?

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        We cannot generalise like this.. Vellalar communities built villages by clearing forests.. so they are poorvakudigal (original inhabitants)..

        However, dubashi brahmins sided with british, and started controlling political affairs.. this is where the dis-content started..

        Instead of analysing what damages this caused, here people resort to defending dubashi brahmins, inspite of knowing that it is the Original Vaideeha Brahmins who were most affected by that..

        Even today, just look at who is calling the shots at national level politics..

        1. Subramanya Swamy – married a parsi, and her daughters married a muslim and christian.. he lost his brahmin identity, and now hang on to Hindu identity.. an identity of uprooted people..

        2. Cho Ramasamy – another dubashi brahmin.. eventhough knowledged, he had unleashed full westernisation in tamilnadu, by controlling JJ’s ADMK..

        I can only ask this.. Name any single brahmin, who recognise the rights of the natives? All these dubashi brahmins, are the ardent proponents of Hindutva and HInduism.. reason: they are uprooted people.. and it is they who control power structures..

        So pls dont generalise things here.. i request for a honest analysis..

    • senthil says:

      While i havent studied this, the ministers of Travancore raja was brahmins.. Sir. C.P Ramasamy Iyer was a famour diwan of travancore during independance..

      Whether they oppressed or not, depends on what context – how do you define oppression?

      Oppression literally means, preventing a people group from having their basic requirements.. for eg, slaves in europe are not allowed to marry, or live with relatives.. another example is Pagans are NOT allowed to worship their ancient gods..

      However, scoundrels here use the term “Oppression” in a sense that people are NOT given political power or not allowed to touch one. Is this oppression? Definitely NOT..

      The missionaries and the media are trying to impose european guilt on indians.. dont fall to that prey..

      If any one throws “Oppression” argument, just ask them what do they mean by oppression.. they would start unraveling themselves..

      • vyas says:

        //The missionaries and the media are trying to impose european guilt on indians.. dont fall to that prey..//

        Senthil – While I agree with your above statement we simply cannot keep blaming the media mindlessly. There are fundamental issues with our constitution which the media is trying to propagate. The constitution is directly contradictory to our tradition and lifestyle and without changing that there is no point in continuing the discussion further. The constitution is highly influenced by Abrahamic lifestyle and no one dares to touch that. If you keep digging the issue more, then one would end up saying that the best way to resolve all these issues would be to break this nation back into 56 desams as it originally was. Do we really want to do that? The best approach one should take is understand the current reality and do what’s best possible.

      • senthil says:

        /** There are fundamental issues with our constitution which the media is trying to propagate. The constitution is directly contradictory to our tradition and lifestyle and without changing that there is no point in continuing the discussion further
        **/

        Exactly.. why are we accepting this constitution, which was NEVER Ratified by our people.. was there any referendum conducted, as is the usual case for any new country. (eg: see nepal)

        /** If you keep digging the issue more, then one would end up saying that the best way to resolve all these issues would be to break this nation back into 56 desams as it originally was. Do we really want to do that?
        **/

        NO.. these 56 dhesam (and beyond that) was ruled over by Vikramaditya.. even today, no dhesams demand any separate nation.. they just want local autonomy, and a state hood..

        So we need to rewrite constitution, and re-organise the states..

  26. vyas says:

    //Vellalar communities built villages by clearing forests.. so they are poorvakudigal (original inhabitants).. //

    How many such communities are real poorvakudies? What about lands that were gifted to them by the kings? During the period of Raja Raja Chola acres and acres of lands were donated to various communities for agriculture and other purposes. Brahmins were also among them. In fact the Brahmins were land owners for ages but those were earned as donations by kings. Also the definition and context of ownership changed significantly since the entry of the British empire. The rest of the events were all an aftermath.

    //However, dubashi brahmins sided with british, and started controlling political affairs.. this is where the dis-content started..//

    Funny, You keep repeating the same old statement again and again to hide the truth. I believe Vedamgopal sir gave tons of examples to prove how other communities too collided with the British and exploited other communities. What more do you want? I believe you too are trapped in the DK propaganda against the Brahmins.

    //I can only ask this.. Name any single brahmin, who recognise the rights of the natives//

    There are many but they are not popular and you won’t even recognize them if I name them so there is no point in doing so.

    //So pls dont generalise things here.. i request for a honest analysis..//

    This is exactly what i’m saying. An honest analysis will not stereotype Brahmins as mother of all issues. The problem is by spending all our energies on bashing the Brahmins, we never analyzed the issues with other communities. If we dig more, we could get more information, which is what I’m requesting you to do.

    • senthil says:

      /** How many such communities are real poorvakudies? What about lands that were gifted to them by the kings? During the period of Raja Raja Chola acres and acres of lands were donated to various communities for agriculture and other purposes.
      **/

      Has any king confiscated lands from poorvakudis? The kings used to allot forest lands to farming communities, which they clear and develop as farming villages..

      The lands given to brahmins were only endowments.. ie, the brahmins can collect taxes for the stated purpose and NOT own it.. The farmers who tilled the land keeps the land.. Only during british rule, these lands were converted in to private one.. The Doctrine of Lapse policy forced many people to convert endowments in to private properties, because if they dont have any male heir, these lands would be confiscated..

      Added to that, the jameendhari system totally changed the system.. Tanjore area was NOT a proper model for us to understand.. we have to study the pandya, and chera country for ancient models, which still thrives..

      /** Funny, You keep repeating the same old statement again and again to hide the truth. I believe Vedamgopal sir gave tons of examples to prove how other communities too collided with the British and exploited other communities.
      **/

      I never denied it.. Nor defended dubashi non-brahmins.. but it is you & vedamgopal who are defending dubashi brahmins vehemantly.. The damage to our dharma was mostly bcoz of dubashi brahmins and NOT by non-brahmins..

      /** This is exactly what i’m saying. An honest analysis will not stereotype Brahmins as mother of all issues. The problem is by spending all our energies on bashing the Brahmins,
      **/

      NOT brahmins.. but dubashi brahmins.. i have pointed you how these dubashi brahmins still call the shot at political, beurocratic and legal domains (good or bad .. that’s diff)

      • vyas says:

        // but it is you & vedamgopal who are defending dubashi brahmins vehemantly//

        We would not have done so if you had been honest in your criticisms and looked at the issue holistically than targeting a specific community.

      • senthil says:

        /** We would not have done so if you had been honest in your criticisms and looked at the issue holistically than targeting a specific community
        **/

        Tell me if anything i said is wrong.. why are you defending dubashi brahmins?

  27. swami says:

    Senthil,

    To reiterate the question.

    If you were asked to confess 5 mistakes committed by EACH VARNA before mughal rule, 5 more before British rule and 5 more mistakes committed by each Varna after the british rule (post independence), what would that be?

  28. swami says:

    Senthil,

    1) In your opinion, true brahmins only does vaidheeham?What about the class of people who were called intellectuals, think tanks, ministers, advisors to ministers/kings, scientists, mathematetian, astronomers, teachers.I dont think vaidheeham was the only way of life for brahmins. In the western universal world, the face of planet has changed. and brahmins continue to play these roles but wearing a different dress. So why bashing?

    2) Yes it was brahmins were one among the group of people who all sided with britishers. But who were part of the british army and british controlled police force when britishers were ruling india? ramanuja iyengars?? What class of people were they?

    • senthil says:

      /** 1) In your opinion, true brahmins only does vaidheeham?What about the class of people who were called intellectuals, think tanks, ministers, advisors to ministers/kings, scientists, mathematetian, astronomers, teachers. I dont think vaidheeham was the only way of life for brahmins.
      **/

      I think you are confusing purohitham/archakam with vaideeham.. by vaideeham, i meant vaideeha life code..
      For eg, Chanakya was the architect of mauryan empire.. he was a medicant (he brought out Bindusara out of womb thru caesarian, when his mother consumed poisonous food & died)

      But till his last moment of life, he lived a vaideeha life.. Can we say of dubashi brahmins?
      (Pls dont drag non-brahmins.. i never defended them..)

      /** In the western universal world, the face of planet has changed. and brahmins continue to play these roles but wearing a different dress. So why bashing?
      **/

      What was the purpose & objective of the role they are playing? I think, you have no issues in accepting, that western systems are causing lethal damage to our dharmic systems.. In such case, how do you justify dubashi brahmins, playing prominant role within that western system?

      Secondly, can a brahmin follow his vaideeha dharma within that western system?

      It is the acceptance of “Western World” by dubashi brahmins as de-facto, that is the root cause of the problem.. that is the reason, why most dubashi brahmins supported the western systems, and even expanded it.. and even you (who have understood issues) are defending western systems, ..

    • /* brahmins continue to play these roles but wearing a different dress. */

      Brahmins role was to upheld Vedas/ Dharma/ teach Vedas/ protect the other castes and lead by example.

      Who among Western world, will fit the above criteria?

      Who are the ones taking care of the temples in this ‘Western Universal world’? They have no qualms praising Indian philosophy & vedas & Dharma, but never have trained their kids in Vedas/Vaideeham. They import the priests from India, taking away these people where they are needed the most ie. in India.

      Can you name one Western Brahmin, who has trained his son to be in Vaideeham & perform their anointed role in the temples?

      • swami says:

        In today’s world, lets say i want to lead a vaidheeha life in india, choosing research of vedic texts as a domain of my life, what kind of support would i get? Financially and also culturally? This support from other Jaathis was revoked during the british time itself and a time came when survival was a question.

        Brahmins taking up western life style is just a ripple effect of a bigger wave that hit the world which is the western universalism. In front of the bigger wave, the physically weaker section of people called brahmins cant do anything other than what was done.

        Of the people who works on dharmic grounds, who are all non brahmins? in the sense people who work are still brahmins only. Sometimes its a strategy to look at the other person and allow them to do the mistake and remain silene (just like our prime minister singh) so that later you can blame them. The DKs took advantage of this in TN and started bashed brahmins not because they left their dharma but because they grabbed the available oppurtunities of survival (in terms of jobs).

        There is no way that the weaker brahmins could have defended this bigger wave without the support of other jaathis. If brahmins are to be blamed so is others.

    • /* What about the class of people who were called intellectuals, think tanks, ministers, advisors to ministers/kings, scientists, mathematetian, astronomers, teachers. */

      How many of them survive/work on donations given by the public? How many of them earn money selling their knowledge?

      Remember, Brahmins as a section, were NOT supposed to sell their knowledge. They were to live off donations given by the other three.

      • swami says:

        “Vedic life style decayed because brahmins left their dharma and other jaathis also failed to support brahmins at this time.”

        Senthil, above is the right statement and you cannot utter one part of the sentence and ignore the other.

        You are provoking the minds of dubashi brahmins which i appreciate. Deep down every dubashi wants dharma restored and now they are slaves in the hands of western lifestyle.Subramanya swamy, Cho Ramaswamy, Gurumurthy, MR Ventakesh are few other brahmins that are working on dharma and shows concern in bharat and your stand on accusing even them is just knocking them out. If you had titled your blog as “Support dubhashi brahmins to follow their dharma” then that would have been a positive spin but this is just another -ve spin. When you spotlight brahmins for all problems of society, to someone who is not well informed of all issues would unconciously support the DK idealogies. I know you donot support DK idealogies. BUt a layman would tend to understand it that way.

  29. vyas says:

    //Tell me if anything i said is wrong.. why are you defending dubashi brahmins?//

    When did I defend them? All I’m saying is that we have to look at this issue holistically rather than pinpoint a particular community. Every community has it’s own share of deeds which caused the society to degrade and that’s exactly we need to find out rather than holding a specific community responsible. In that respect I’d put the whole blame on the failure of the Hindu Administrative systems for the degrade. Why was the average Brahmin who took upto govt jobs was not outcasted? If that had been done it would have taught a lesson to others who followed that pattern. That didn’t happen because we lost our kingdoms to the British and they took over all our administrative processes. Finally I want to say just one thing. Pls don’t expect or portray Brahmins (even the Vaideeha) to be avathara purashas or rishis. They are just ordinary human beings like any of us barring the fact that they just follow strict discipline in their personal life for which they were well respected.

    • senthil says:

      /** All I’m saying is that we have to look at this issue holistically rather than pinpoint a particular community. Every community has it’s own share of deeds which caused the society to degrade and that’s exactly we need to find out rather than holding a specific community responsible.
      **/

      We are discussing about the degradation of our vaideeha temples, and the pathetic state of so many vaideeha temples, which are without even One Kala pooja.. Who else should we discuss other than brahmins?

      /** In that respect I’d put the whole blame on the failure of the Hindu Administrative systems for the degrade. **/

      Who destroyed traditional admin system? again it is the dubashi brahmins who adopted western life style.. right?

      The native admin systems was intact as late as 1960s and 1970s.. Traditional karanams and maniakkarars were looking after the village administration.. suddenly the government dislodged all of them.. It is only because of this, agriculture got destroyed, and we have to emigrate out of villages..

      You can console yourselves by generalising the degradation.. that will not help us in understanding the real cause..

      • /* All I’m saying is that we have to look at this issue holistically rather than pinpoint a particular community. Every community has it’s own share of deeds which caused the society to degrade and that’s exactly we need to find out rather than holding a specific community responsible. *

        Every community has its own share of deeds, but the greatest and the highest responsibility lay with the Brahmins. No one can deny this truth. They were the thinkers, guardians of Vedic life, ones responsible to lead by example. They were the ones who left their kula dharma first, if you see the sequence of events. So nothing wrong in accepting this.

        • venkat says:

          STOP !!! Bashing Brahmins – Yes we all admit a lot of unfavourable things have been done in the past and present . Now it is time to talk SOLUTIONS !!!! SOLUTIONS !!! -That’s what we need.

      • IMO, when British defeated Hindu Kings one after another, they should have banded together, behind whoever was remaining, and should have taken efforts to present a united front. Like what Japanese did.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration#Motives

  30. senthil says:

    /** That didn’t happen because we lost our kingdoms to the British and they took over all our administrative processes. Finally I want to say just one thing. Pls don’t expect or portray Brahmins (even the Vaideeha) to be avathara purashas or rishis.
    **/

    Right.. past is past.. let it be.. what are the steps that we have to take today, to rectify things? Should we accept the destruction, and continue with westernisation?

    • Dubashi Senthil can always throw away his corporate suit and tie and revert to his default vellala status whereas a dubashi brahmin can never do so. He is lost to vaideeham for ever. This itself highlights how far brahmins have strayed from their dharma. Till dubashi brahmins demonstrate a commitment to rectify themselves, they cannot expect other communities to support them, because, by being dubashis, they are encroaching on the privileges of the other communities. If they genuinely reform themselves, the others will automatically support them and society will revert to its original default status. Of course this will take a few generations, but atleast as an initial step, a dubashi brahmin should send his son to a veda patashala, and give his daughter in marriage to a suitable brahmachari. If a dubashi brahmin sends his children to a “secular” school, he will continue to perpetrate the same mistakes which made him a dubashi in the first place.
      Let the brahmin do/uphold Dharma first, and rest assured, Dharma will save him. There is no point in blaming all and sundry without first doing one’s svadharma!

  31. swami says:

    (Pls dont drag non-brahmins.. i never defended them..)

    I know you are not defending them. But remaining silent about them is like making incomplete sentence. You are playing a clever role by remaining silent on their part.

    If karunanidhi had performed rail bandh asking brahmins to go back to vaidheeha life style, then i would agree with your argument. It was time when the poonool was cut, kudumi was cut forcefully. Did karunanidhi build more temples and provide more oppurtunities to revive guru sishya paramparya? Did he encourage learning sanskrit? When he was in power and we are in this western world completely, did he encourage dubhashi brahmins to learn sanskrit and provide oppurtunities to return back to their dharma? Recent past in TN, it was a non brahmin rule. What was done to restore dharma and create a conducive environment for dubhashi brahmins to come back? Nothing was done as corrective action. May be not all would have come back . but atleast a opart of dubhashi brahmins could have come if DK had created a condusive environment. Now its too late. Now it will take atleast one or 2 generations for dubhashi brahmins to put their next generation back on the vaidheeha track. All DK did is to bash the entire tradition. With they being in politics, there is no way for the weaker brahmins to defend them. I wish there was a parasurama at this time or even now.

    If you call brahmins as oppurtunists to sneak through the holes in the name of english education, then the other jaatis were also dying to do the same. Its just that brahmins took a larger slice of the cake and escaped, other jaathis had their jelous expressed by bashing the brahmins.

    Thats why i keep asking, what are the mistakes commited by each varna at various points in history that facilitated the decay of dharma. Lets come up with action plan for each varna to correct and work in synergy to bring back the dharma. Lets start from there instead of the blame game.

    • senthil says:

      @swami,

      As long as you blindly defend the wrongs of dubashi brahmins, no solution could be found.. You cannot generalise Non-Brahmins.. You know where karunanidhi belongs to..

      Please see it from cause -effect angle.. the fact that the vaideeha brahmins were the most affected by dubashi brahmins cannot be ignored..

      Only recognition of the past events, will lead to future solutions..

  32. /* “Vedic life style decayed because brahmins left their dharma and other jaathis also failed to support brahmins at this time.” */

    Other jaathis had also problems of survival. So in that case you can’t expect any support from them. The point, which no one wants to admit, is that the Brahmins had a higher duty towards Dharma than others, because of their position as “intellectuals”. They were the “head” of the purusha.Brahmins should have stuck to their own Dharma , no matter how hard it was; instead Brahmins left other jaathis to their fate and started taking up British jobs. This event led to eventual collapse of the system.

    • swami says:

      Brahmana dharma cannot be followed by brahmins in isolation without the support of other jaathis.

      This was stated by senthil in one of his earlier blogs. You can look it up. So all you are trying to do is just to find a scape goat.

      The alternate approach is if you need to revive the tradition seriously, then work towards that. Again who would bell the cat first?

    • swami says:

      also there is no good of being the head if the body is weak. If body doesnt cooperate the head would ache. :) so dont just blame the brahmins.

      inspite of all these arguments from my end , i would agree with below statements in general in terms of effects and not in terms of root cause.
      1) brahmins should not have gone out of their dharma
      2) going out of their dharma made them look for luxuries
      3) it aggrevated the decay of the social fabric

      Blame game is not going to help.

    • Zed says:

      “They were the “head” of the purusha.Brahmins should have stuck to their own Dharma , no matter how hard it was;”

      Do not fall for the metaphysical expression in the purusha sukta for for a literal “head”. The fact that somebody was a “head” did not mean they had more responsibilities.
      Everybody should have stuck to their own Dharma. the brahmanas were not special in any way. The moment you start making exceptions for brahmanas, the question of hierarchy in the varna ashrama comes to the fore. That never was the intent of the varna ashrama.

      • Every group was special in their own way, but there has to be a leader. One who leads by example. IMO that group was Brahmanas because of their strict lifestyle.Even today we need leaders. There is nothing wrong in accepting this fact.

  33. swami says:

    pp_chn,

    what you say is politically correct statement.But need not be practically correct.

    Consider below scenario.

    Cause1->Effect1(Cause2)->Effect2(Cause3)->Effect 3(Cause 4)->etc….

    In the above, if you just look at Effect 2 and say it is the cause for Effect 3, you are right.
    But you conviniently ignore Effect 1 and the cause 1 which is the root cause.

    i.e

    British influence/strategies—>Indian Kings lost war—>low GDP/absence of governance—>survival threat to all varnas—>brahmins became dubashis->dubashis became materialistic—>dharma decays –> other jaathis struggle for survival–> other jaathis bash brahmins—> DK forms–> No condusive environment for brahmins to revive back to dharmic life

    In this chain of events, look at the cause and effect. you cannot conviniently take one part of the event and bash that ignoring the others.

    • vyas says:

      Well said Swami. This is exactly what I wanted to convey but somehow could not put it the way you did. You’ve presented it very beautifully. By ballooning the mistakes done by Brahmins alone, we’d just be ignoring the other chain of events that led to the decay of our dharma.

  34. senthil says:

    @swami & others,

    /** British influence/strategies—>Indian Kings lost war—>low GDP/absence of governance—>survival threat to all varnas—>brahmins became dubashis->dubashis became materialistic—>dharma decays –> other jaathis struggle for survival–> other jaathis bash brahmins—> DK forms–> No condusive environment for brahmins to revive back to dharmic life
    **/

    This causal analysis can be remodelled like this..

    British medding (1) -> indian kings lost war (2) ->famines & poverty (3)->Wealthy Brahmins (jameendhars, landlords etc) study english (NOT poor ones) (4) ->Occupy major beurocratic jobs (5) -> DK as reactionary to it (6) -> Anti-Brahminism (7) -> confiscation of Temples & reservation (8) -> Vaideeha Brahmins, Devadasis & all communities associated with temples affected (9) -> collapse of Temple sanctity (10) -> collapse of dharma (11) ……

    In the above sequence, event (4) & (5) led to event (6) & (7) .. That is the key point..

    It is the wealthy brahmins (landlords, jameendhars) who first adopted western education.. because at that time, english education was costly..

    Secondly, the kanchi mutt was instrumental in establishing english colleges in Kumbakonam (around 1850s i think) , which further made more brahmins to pursue english education.. That is the reason why Kumbakonam brahmins dominate political atomosphere even today..

    In our area, we successfully countered anti-brahminism, by segregating kumbakonam brahmins from local brahmins (gurukkals, priests etc), and that was very successful..

    Now lets look at the timeline..

    Till 1990s, Most vellalars (& associated Communities) were still doing farming.. I have my own living memory of a traditional village life till 1995, when liberalisation started..

    Even english educated vellalars shunned government jobs, because, they see it as “Nadodi Polappu” (ie, wanderer life) and why should they choose it when they have a stable, settled agrarian life..

    ————————-

    Considering both Chain of Events, and TIme Line, we could understand the sequence of events that led us to the current stage ..

    So please stop going in to defensive mode, and analyse things as it is.. Today, the situation is very critical.. Most vaideeha brahmins dont want their children to be in their profession.. their children are moving out in large numbers to corporate jobs.. Those vaideeha brahmins boys who chose to learn vedas, today do not get any bride..

    All these results in more and more temples going out of activity, due to lack of priests..

    What is the solution for this? That has to be discussed now..

    Please remember.. the same situation is very accute in vellalar communities too.. Those who are doing farming do not get any bride at all.. but farming can be done in many other ways, employing machines, tools etc.. but that cannot be done to temples right?

    So it is essential, that the vaideeha brahmins have to be protected to continue regular poojas in temple.. what can be done for that?

    What i proposed:
    ——————-

    1. Segregation of Vaideeha brahmins from dubashi brahmins .. There should not be any matrimonial alliance b/w them..

    2. Separate schools for vaideeha brahmin girls to mould them in to brahminic life…

    3. The preservation and protection of agraharams ONLY for vaideeha brahmins..

    ie, we need a social community re-organisation in the current scenario.. Otherwise, this destruction will go on continuously..

    Please focus on these aspects..

    • I had already posted this point in my earlier comment above, but as point 4, dubashi brahmins should send their son to veda patashalas i.e not secular schools
      5. Completely agree about training brahmin girls in their dharma, the dubashi brahmin should put his daughter in such a school.
      6. At the appropriate time the girl should be married to a suitable traditional brahmachari boy.
      7. The dubashi brahmin instead of spending money on capitation fees etc for “secular” education, on costly marriages etc. can keep it as a corpus to help the boy and girl to start their married life – grahasthasrama. I believe the veda patashala at Tirupati gives a sum of money to a brahmachari on completion of his education there, something on this line can be done by the dubashi brahmins also.
      8. All dubashi brahmins are well educated. They can themselves supplement the traditional education of the youngsters by teaching them “secular” sciences, computer skills etc at home itself – some kind of home schooling.
      9. A retired dubashi brahmin can contribute his skills to enterprises run by other jaathis in a pro bono fashion, something like a dakshina scheme. This itself will earn the brahmins the respect of the other jaathis.

      • swami says:

        Senthil,

        As you know I completely agree with your perspective . I am not blindly defending the brahmins.

        The only aspect that i wanted you to add into your arguments is the chain of events that pushed brahmins into this state. Also thanks for showing comparison on how other jaathis(especially yours) reacted to such events. Its good to know that other jaathis didnt decay as much as the brahmins. In that context i completely agree with your bashing on brahmins.

        At the same time, there is no conducive environment for return. So DK ideallogy should go away from people’s mind. more people like you should think about the need to revive and protect brahmins and in parallel the vaidheeha brahmans should be nurtured as well.

        the point on Kanchi Matt buiding english college was unknown atleast to me. I have heard mahaperiyaval condemning brahmins who go away from their dharma. i have read it in deivathin kural. but this college information is new to me. that too as early as in 1850′s..

      • senthil says:

        @swami,

        /** In that context i completely agree with your bashing on brahmins. **/

        Why do we see it as bashing? We are only discussing an issue right? Bashing is something that we do for either maligning or out of hatred.. here, our purpose is to understand present situation,

        So i request everyone NOT to see it as bashing.. the term “Dubashi” may have high negative connotation, but i just used to create an impact.. NOT to hate any one.. infact, i see english educated urban Ex-brahmins, as one of the most uprooted, and they have no other option in their life, except to be a slave to corporates.. That’s a pitiable situation..

      • swami says:

        /*infact, i see english educated urban Ex-brahmins, as one of the most uprooted, and they have no other option in their life, except to be a slave to corporates.. That’s a pitiable situation..
        */

        You are right and i agree. I have heard from lots of people around me where they wonder what would they do if software industry goes down. i have the same concern too but am not threatened as i have alternate skills :)

        but lots of others that i see are so stuck with this and if this business goes down (which is highly dependent on US market situations) we know nothing about the vedas to become a pandit nor we can do agriculture nor we can do anyother job.

        At the same time, this is becoming true to other Jaathis as well. India is producing lacks of engineers every year. Do we really have the demand for all these people to “be employed”? Right now software has become the only xavier. but for that, we are gone. This is making every educated a slave. If this continues a few more generations, no one would have the skills to perform agriculture, carpentry etc..

    • vyas says:

      //In the above sequence, event (4) & (5) led to event (6) & (7) .. That is the key point..//

      Agreed, but 4 & 5 itself could not have existed without 1 & 2 and that’s precisely my point. I’m not saying that what Brahmins did was right. All I’m saying is that they were not the only ones who did it. If we dig more we’ll be able to find out who the real culprits are.

      //Secondly, the kanchi mutt was instrumental in establishing english colleges in Kumbakonam (around 1850s i think) , which further made more brahmins to pursue english education//

      While this may be true (i’m yet to research on this) you just cannot come to early conclusions on why it was done so. We need to understand the right context in which it was done.

      //Till 1990s, Most vellalars (& associated Communities) were still doing farming.. I have my own living memory of a traditional village life till 1995, when liberalisation started..//

      True, but why couldn’t they continue to do so even after 1995? That’s because after liberalization their very survival itself became questionable. Survival will take precedence over anything (even dharmic lifestyle) for a common man and the Brahmis are no exception to it.

      // Most vaideeha brahmins dont want their children to be in their profession.. their children are moving out in large numbers to corporate jobs.. Those vaideeha brahmins boys who chose to learn vedas, today do not get any bride.. //

      Why? It’s because the whole world is taking up to something totally contradictory to Vedic lifestyle and the poor Brahmins are not motivated enough to keep up with the age old lifestyle.

      //1. Segregation of Vaideeha brahmins from dubashi brahmins .. There should not be any matrimonial alliance b/w them..

      2. Separate schools for vaideeha brahmin girls to mould them in to brahminic life…

      3. The preservation and protection of agraharams ONLY for vaideeha brahmins..//

      I agree with all your above points, but you are trying to impose them as a dictator. Today we are expected to give logical reasoning for everything that we do else people are simply not interested in listening. What are we going to do about it? Our dharma shastras are constructed purely on the platform called “Belief”. They command one to do things without expecting anything in return. Will anyone adhere to such principles in the modern world? How are we going to re-instantiate the importance of Vedas in to the minds of the younger generation which is highly materialistic. What measures are we going to take to keep up Dharma Shastras in such changing times? It is these questions that needs to be answered first rather than just segregating the Brahmins into agraharams. As someone said in the forum, the Brahmins are not alone in a society. You are proposing a solution where you are asking a Brahmin to be a virgin even when the whole world around him is a brothel house. This is practically impossible to achieve. As Swami mentioned when you want to bring out a change in the society it should be a collective one. You just cannot lay down the rules for Brahmins alone and expect everything to change. First find out the mistakes of your own and other non-Brahmin communities and let’s get them listed out, then we’ll take up a collective decision based on that.

      • Our Dharma Sastras are based on logic, not on mere belief.
        Nobody is commanding anybody to obey any diktats. At the end of the Bhagavad Gita the Lord Himself says to Arjuna to consider carefully what has been told to him and decide for himself! No other religion / philosophy gives any person so much swathanthriyam!
        Expecting a reward / result for a karma will ensnare that person in samsara and that is the reason one should “sacrifice” i.e not claim ownership on the results of karma. This does not mean that one should “sacrifice” karma itself. It is incumbent on everybody to perform their svadharma based on their svabahava. Nobody can sacrifice their karma!
        Performing (sva)dharma cannot be collective decision! One has to stop at a red signal. Just because autos and buses routinely flout traffic rules, one cannot say that “a collective decision has to be taken on following signals”, or, “let the other chap follow the rules first and let us decide later”!
        But I think we are digressing here. In the olden times, the brahmins never did wield any power or own wealth. Their only asset was their tapas based on their adherence to their dharma. I find it amazing to realise that corruption in a class of people with no physical or financial muscle has lead to corruption in the entire society!
        Therefore it is incumbent on the brahmins to show society the proper Dharmic path again and they should set an example for the others to follow by reverting to a Dharmic way of life, however difficult it may be.
        If they indeed did that they need not expect any favours from anybody, because Dharma protects those who uphold Dharma – “Dharmo rakshathi rakshitha:”!
        Once again I agree with you that the other communities are not completely blameless in this present mess. They do have their committed their fair share of adharma and have to rectify themselves. In that context I agree that reformation of society does not depend solely on the brahmins upholding Dharma. Society comprises of everybody and it is the responsibility of one and all to uphold Dharma!

      • Collective decision is like democracy. Nothing will happen. Imagine a project / undertaking run like this. Will it ever move towards completion? Exactly why you need leaders. Its upto Brahmins to take the lead, for they are the ones entrusted with the task of protecting/carrying forward Vedic traditions. Thankfully, Brahmins didn’t wait for collective decision when Kafur attacked Srirangam.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Ranganathaswamy_Temple,_Srirangam#Invasion_of_Srirangam_Temple

        p.s. blaming Brahmins is not out of malice, but to make them realise the task in front of them.

      • swami says:

        In a nut shell, who is to bell the cat is the question and you all say brahmins have to. I am glad in deed that such a previlage is still there.

        so i do agree with your statement that brahmins should take the lead and show the path to others :)

        Period.

      • senthil says:

        @vyas,

        /** Our dharma shastras are constructed purely on the platform called “Belief”. They command one to do things without expecting anything in return
        **/

        I am really surprised at this comment.. do you say dharma sastras are just beliefs and do not have any logic in it?

        /** Will anyone adhere to such principles in the modern world? **/

        If you feel, no one will adhere to these principles, then why are we speaking about dharma? we can very well embrace westernisation fully.. right?

        /** As someone said in the forum, the Brahmins are not alone in a society. You are proposing a solution where you are asking a Brahmin to be a virgin even when the whole world around him is a brothel house.
        **/

        I am saying that it is brahmins (and that too wealthy brahmins), who first entered those brother house.. You fail to accept this..

        /** As Swami mentioned when you want to bring out a change in the society it should be a collective one. You just cannot lay down the rules for Brahmins alone and expect everything to change. First find out the mistakes of your own and other non-Brahmin communities and let’s get them listed out, then we’ll take up a collective decision based on that.
        **/

        See.. we (non-brahmins) have our own kula devata.. we have separate class of non-brahmin priests called pandarams.. Our kula devata temples, had more or less following the tradition (including animal sacrifice etc)..

        The vaidiha temples has to be looked after ONLY by the Vaideeha Brahmins.. we cannot enter the garpagraha and replace brahmins.. So you cannot cite non-brahmins as reasons for deviation of english educated brahmins from dharma ..

  35. senthil says:

    @swami,

    /** In a nut shell, who is to bell the cat is the question and you all say brahmins have to. I am glad in deed that such a previlage is still there.
    **/

    i am not saying that brahmins (english educated) have to rectify every damages to our society. that’s not possible..

    What i am saying is that because english educated brahmins marry brides from vaideeha brahmin family, the vaideeha brahmins are collapsing.. the girls from english educated brahmin family do not choose to marry vaideeha brahmins.. they become secularised, and tend to marry non-brahmins.. and girls from vaideeha family, are given as bride to english educated brahmin boys..

    Thus we see exodus of girls out of vaideeha dharma, and this is because of English Educated brahmins.. Hope everyone accepts it..

    What is the solution forward?

    1. English educated brahmins still have links to their traditional mutts.. So the brahmin mutts should take efforts in re-oganising the brahmin community..

    2. they should convene a meeting of brahmin leaders, and segregate vaideeha brahmin families from dubashi brahmins based on mutual acceptance..

    3. There should be separate community codes for vaideeha brahmins, and dubashi brahmins according to their environment.. While traditional life codes to be retained for vaideeha brahmins, a new life code (that does not compromise dharma, and is based on purpose & objectivity) should be evolved for those brahmins who moved out of vaideeham..

    4. The dubashi brahmins should adopt a different name, so as to distinguish from vaideeha brahmins.. the term brahmin should denote ONLY traditional vaideeha brahmins.. the dubashi brahmins can take a different name (like Modern Brahmins, or Ex-Brahmins or any other name as appropriate)..

    5. There should be a strict ban on any matrimonial alliance b/w dubashi brahmins vs vaideeha brahmins. the brahmin mutts should strictly enforce this..

  36. vyas says:

    //I am really surprised at this comment.. do you say dharma sastras are just beliefs and do not have any logic in it?//

    How will you make the young generation believe something without an appropriate verification system? For eg. our puranas talk about Dhasharatha having lived for 60000 years. When a child asks you a logical question on the possibility of this, how will you defend it? When dharma shastra asks a Brahmin not to mingle with untouchables, how will you defend that logically with the present generation? If you mention hygiene as the factor for not mingling then there are various ways to mingle with people and still be hygienic with access to modern technology. How will you defend this? You yourself were not able to answer many of my questions in the forum about hygiene, then how are we going to groom the next generation with a mindset to accept the Vedic cult? There is no point in just segregating the Brahmins into agraharams. They obviously cannot be segregated from the external world. You cannot lock them inside their houses and try to groom them. When the whole world has become a brothel house what’s the point in changing just the Brahmins alone. What about other Jathis? Just because they do not have a strict code of life like the Brahmins doesn’t mean they can do anything they wish to. Why are you so silent about conversions? Why were you not able to prevent your own relative from getting converted? Conversion is equally dangerous in my opinion. Atleast these dubashi Brahmins can be brought in track to follow the path of vaideeha dharma, (many of the retired Brahmins are already doing it), but you can never do so for a converted victim. How many of the converted masses have come back to their origin religion in the past 100 years? Can you give me a statistic?

    //I am saying that it is brahmins (and that too wealthy brahmins), who first entered those brother house.. You fail to accept this..//

    I say that there were many non-Brahmins too who entered it along with the Brahmins but it was the Brahmins alone were victimized.

    The primary thing one needs to do is build a strong foundation for grooming the dharma shastras in the minds of the younger generation. Modern science has built an empire based on cause and effect theory. Adding to this the capitalists have made money the numero-uno thing in the world. We’ve already built a world where you can’t get anything (even water) without money. It is in such a degraded society that you want the Brahmins to be purest of the pure. Don’t you really think you are demanding too much on your side? The Vaideeha Brahmin community has completely degraded today because of the degraded society. Today Vaideeham has become a tool for money making. You can see this for yourself when you look at how much wealth these people have accumulated off late. Do you really think you can put a rule and change these people? Even if you put so, who is going to abide by that? When the Brahmins did not heed to even Maha periyavaa’s words back then who are they going to listen to? Say if the mutts put such a rule as you mentioned, do you really think the Brahmins will adhere to it? They may even decide to disassociate themselves from those mutts but will not abide by it’s rules. This is why I’m saying that you cannot put a stop to all these non-senses by urging the Brahmins alone to change. The real culprit is elsewhere. It’s in the hands of our policy makers and global think tanks. They are doing everything possible to change our lifestyle which is in turn affecting our way of life too. This is what we need to look at first. Saving the vaideeha dharma is very important and there is no second opinion about it, but the platform which hosts it should change first, and that cannot happen without support from other communities, which is what I’m emphasizing.

    • swami says:

      @Vyas,
      People who ask all these logical questions on puranas generally complain their question never get answered.The truth is, they do not want to hear the answer. Its because they are not yet ready to receive the answer in first place. It would not convince their intellect. the answer reflects a concept that is either so subtle or its too huge that its beyond the comprehension and validation of current modern science.

      there are logical reasons for all these questions. but to comprehend the answer, the questioner should be in a particular mode. Most of them are not in that mode. The right mode to be is he should be OPEN, be able to SEARCH CONSTANTLY, CONNECT VARIOUS DOTS and hit the answer yourselves.

      We are currently not able to take care of hygene in a gross way in india. This is hygene in subtlest possible way. They will never be able to understand this in current situation.

      • vyas says:

        // People who ask all these logical questions on puranas generally complain their question never get answered.The truth is, they do not want to hear the answer. Its because they are not yet ready to receive the answer in first place. It would not convince their intellect. the answer reflects a concept that is either so subtle or its too huge that its beyond the comprehension and validation of current modern science.//

        Swami – The real question is how to get them on track. You, me and Senthil have no issues in believing our Dharma Shastras, but what should we do to get the next generation on track is what one needs to think? Adding to this modern science has confused the current generation enough that they use it as metrics for everything. Technology has added more fuel to this fire. The rate at which technology is growing is alarming and day by day it’s only trivializing humans and their potential. We are not far from the days when machines will outpace human intelligence. Humans will be forced to evolve intellectually to compete against technology else they’ll not be able to survive. This is scenario in which we are expecting to take forward the Dharma Shastras. Unless we take some intellectual measures to safe guard our Dharma Shastras, it would be impossible to convince the next generation to follow it. The key to our success in taking forward the Dharma Shastras to the next generation is to restore the mindset such that they have UN-deterred belief in it. It is this that needs to be done first. What’s the point in putting a rule to group the Brahmins in to agraharams? Who is going to listen to you even if you do so? For the sake of argument let’s say that I want to create a agraharam exclusively for Brahmins. Due to strict acharaas, I want to allow only Brahmins inside the house. In order to pass this message to everyone if I put a sign board stating “Entry restricted only for Brahmins”, will the Govt tolerate it? Remember the fatal outcome of the incident that happened in Srirangam for the Brahmanaal hotel? When I don’t have the freedom to even put a sign board for my community, how do you expect me to take other things forward? This is why I’m saying that we need to take holistic measures to address this problem. Just grouping the Brahmins into agraharams alone will not help. Even if you were successful in doing so, you simply will not have the freedom to follow your strict acharaas. If you do you’ll be shunned for following age old practices.

  37. swami says:

    Now that senthil and others has clarified the rational behind pin poiting brahmins we can discuss constructively on how to reverse the damage caused.

    Now you want brahmins to follow dharmic way of life.SO i would like to understand further on the process to see how conducive the environment is to take care of the basic needs of a brahmin who decides to do lead a dharmic life.

    1) Food : Brahmins should ideally get bhiksha to eat. At the same time, it is said when a brahmin asks for bhisha, it should not be rejected. This phenomenon in today’s world translates to providing free food for brahmins every day. Is other jaathis open for this? Can this be implemented?

    2) Shelter : Brahmins should live close to the temple in agrahaarams. These are mostly changed now in the modern world. We can probably create a new locality near the main temples. Now land, house means real estate. Which costs money.

    This is like providing scholership to students who excel in their talents and so as part of scholership food and lodging is provided for free. Can this be acheived in the current society to reverse the damage caused?

    I think the dubhashi brahmins should get together and use their money to start this process and buy a land build eco friendly houses and let the vaidheeha brahmans live there for free. Give them food.

    But ideally this aspect of financing (food, clothing, shealter) was done by the dharmakarthas. Who are this jaathis now and what are their current state/jobs. What kind of inputs can we get from these jaathis. Wondering how it is done now. Is the governemnt doing this now?

  38. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** Swami – The real question is how to get them on track. You, me and Senthil have no issues in believing our Dharma Shastras, but what should we do to get the next generation on track is what one needs to think? Adding to this modern science has confused the current generation enough that they use it as metrics for everything.
    **/

    This is where we falter often.. instead of approaching this issue in vague manner, we should divide the target people as below..

    1. Those dubashi-brahmins cannot be brought back to vaideeham.. so we can better leave them for now..

    2. Those vaideeha brahmins, who push their sons/daughters our of vaideeham.. They are potential targets, but NOT immediate target..

    3. Those vaideeha brahmins who still send their children to veda pata shala.. IT is this population which is in great stress.. They may at anytime go out of vaideeha dharma, due to current hostile situations..

    Out of the above 3 sections, we should focus on current vaideeha brahmins.. (2 & 3).. right?

    Hope, this solves your question. Lets leave those who are NOT interested..

    • vyas says:

      //Hope, this solves your question. Lets leave those who are NOT interested..//

      Agreed, but the existing Vaideeha Brahmins who are sending their children to Veda Paatshaalaas have become micro minorities already. Even if you put enormous effort in safeguarding them, we ultimately need to increase their demographics without which they’ll perish. For this we need enormous amount of money. Who will provide that? Only dubashi Brahmins can do that.

      Also I’m surprised you are so silent about the sons of your own Vellalas who leave their traditional farming profession for working in cities. I can challenge you and say that almost every low level worker today in Chennai or other metros hails from some village who was doing farming at some point. What initiatives have you taken to safeguard them from perishing? Don’t you think your population is shrinking too? Aren’t you concerned about that? Do you really think you can safeguard the sanatana dharma by just having a few Brahmins who keep chanting the Veda Mantras? That is already happening in Kerala where with the Athiratham Brahmins who have been doing Vedic rituals for several milleniums non stop even till this very moment. Has that helped us in a major way?

      • senthil says:

        /** Agreed, but the existing Vaideeha Brahmins who are sending their children to Veda Paatshaalaas have become micro minorities already. Even if you put enormous effort in safeguarding them, we ultimately need to increase their demographics without which they’ll perish. For this we need enormous amount of money. Who will provide that? Only dubashi Brahmins can do that.
        **/

        1. Micro-Minority in what terms? in terms of general population, or in terms of brahmin community.. if u take brahmin community alone, the vaideeha brahmin percentage is considerably high..

        2.. Even accepting your own logic, this micro-minority of brahmins should be supported, protected and encouraged to continue their dharma.. if we lose them too, the tradition would be lost for ever.. Its enough, even if there is one brahmin family.. we can certainly revive the tradition..

        3. To increase their demography, first we need to create a conducive environment. Every entity multiplies in favorable environments, and dwindles in hostile environment.. apart from this, few other steps has to be taken..
        -> Vaideeha brahmins should be allowed to marry at early age.. its their dharma, that a girl child has to be married before puberty.. dont they have the right to practice their dharma? we need to Unambigously, and Unapologetically support that..
        -> Separate school for vaideeha brahmin girls.. Boys to be sent to veda pata sala, right at their 4th age..
        -> They should be provided resources and moral support to beget more children, with a condition, that those children should be sent to veda pata shala..

        4. /** For this we need enormous amount of money. Who will provide that? Only dubashi Brahmins can do that. **/

        First the dubashi brahmins should be separated from vaideeha brahmins and matrimonial alliances should be stopped.. are dubashi brahmins ready for that?

        For funds, the non-brahmins would not hesitate to pour money.. bcoz, establishing vedapatasala, donating to a vaideeha brahmins are all acts of Punyams.. we can easily generate money..

  39. senthil says:

    /** Adding to this modern science has confused the current generation enough that they use it as metrics for everything. Technology has added more fuel to this fire. The rate at which technology is growing is alarming and day by day it’s only trivializing humans and their potential
    **/

    The growth of technology should NOT alarm us.. Ultimately it is we who decide how our life should be lived.. We need to re-align the purpose of these technologies.. ie, the way they r used.. lets find ways to use technology to protect our tradition..

    • vyas says:

      // Ultimately it is we who decide how our life should be lived//

      I’d be happy if that was so but it’s not.

      // We need to re-align the purpose of these technologies//

      Actually you need to understand that technology is re-aligning the very purpose itself. Today technology is seen as not an add-on but a replacement. It’s changing the very culture of several societies. Back in those days too we had yantras (modern gadgets) but it was never designed to take over or work without human intervention. That’s not the case with modern technology. The days are not far off when machine intelligence will take over average human intelligence. Humans have to learn to be forcibly intelligent to compete with machines, else our survival will become difficult.

  40. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** Due to strict acharaas, I want to allow only Brahmins inside the house. In order to pass this message to everyone if I put a sign board stating “Entry restricted only for Brahmins”, will the Govt tolerate it? Remember the fatal outcome of the incident that happened in Srirangam for the Brahmanaal hotel?
    **/

    That is NOT brahmin hotel.. i heard it as Brahmin Cafe.. a cafe for dubashi brahmins.. (NOT vaideeha one).. Do you think, this is right model? To start a western hotel, in western attire for brahmins alone?

    And is it right for brahmins to consume tea and coffee?

    • vyas says:

      Senthil – As usual you are getting too granular into the issue. The question is not about items served inside the cafe or hotel or the model of the hotel. All I’m asking is do I have the right today to restrict entry strictly for Vaideeha Brahmins in a public space? Let’s say I want to open an Annachathra (completely owned by me and built in my own place) for offering free food exclusively for Vaideeha Brahmins with strict code of conduct. Will I be able to do that? Even if I’m able to do it I’ll not be able to put a sign board to caution others.

      • senthil says:

        Yes.. you have the right to do that.. and i assure you full support & co-operation in all means.. But that should be only for Vaideeha brahmins, and in traditional model..

        As a person at ground level, we have no issues in defending vaideeha brahmins.. the problem comes only with dubashi brahmins.. the common people are particularly affected by those brahmins who were lawyers.. my relatives only cite their experience with lawyers, for their brahmin hatredness..

        There is a simple thumb rule.. wherever, brahmins wield power and authority, anti-brahminism was strong.. wherever brahmins live traditional life, they have full support of people.. you can just look at the crowd in all major tanjore temples, where people come for pariharam.. Just ask those people to employ non-brahmins for doing parihara, and see the reaction..

  41. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** Also I’m surprised you are so silent about the sons of your own Vellalas who leave their traditional farming profession for working in cities. I can challenge you and say that almost every low level worker today in Chennai or other metros hails from some village who was doing farming at some point. What initiatives have you taken to safeguard them from perishing?
    **/

    You are right.. the farming communities are abandoning their profession in large scale.. because, the indian government had economically squeezed the entire rural population.. P. Chidambaram, and Manmohan singh and many other politicians had openly said that india was backward bcoz of agricultural population, and in order for india to be developed, people should be pushed from villages to cities..

    This can be called a direct invasion of our traditional bharath by India..

    Some important reasons for collapse of Farming..

    1. The economic liberalisation – where dollar rate was artificially kept high.. those working in IT companies get exhorbitant salary NOT bcoz of their work, but because of currency conversion.. whereas income from farming was extremely low, and if there was any slight increase in price, it was suppressed by govt.. So people started moving to other sectors slowly.. this was rapid, only in the last 20 years..

    2. Those people who continued farming, did not get bride.. bcoz, when a groom with high corporate IT salary is available, these farming youths were the neglected one.. Also, earlier, people used to marry off girls at 18 years.. so guys at 27 & above years were able to get bride.. but suddenly large number of private colleges were opened, and those girls at 18 yrs, started to study up to 25 years.. so those guys who were to marry these girls, were suddenly deprived of brides.. This has collapsed the society.. Even well to do farming families, forcefully sent their children out of farming..

    3. If you look at the GOs (Government Orders) of tamilnadu for past 50 years, the rights of villages has been systematically taken over by govt.. The ponds and lakes which was managed by village administration for thousands of years, were suddenly stopped.. In Tanjore, the rights of farmers to maintain the irrigation canals were confiscated..
    So all the infrastructure and traditional administrative setup that helped farming were destroyed and replaced with Sarkari setup.. (Dharampal describes in detail about that..)

    Apart from that, land rights were taken away from village administration.. anyone can buy land in any village and do whatever they want, and local farmers have no say or control.. ( best eg is palachimeda, where coco cola sucked out all ground water..)

    When the indian govt crippled the entire rural india, people lost their means of living and moved to other professions..

    Today, most of the work force in IT sector comprises of people from Farming sector.. the artificial high dollar rate has enabled IT companies to give such exhorbitant salary.. but once the dollar rate comes to around 20rs per dollar, IT sector will die down, and people would automatically return to farming.. Will govt allow that?

    Just like all roads lead to rome, every issue that our traditional society currently faces is because of Indian Govt & Constitution… and who is operating it?

    • “The economic liberalisation – where dollar rate was artificially kept high.. those working in IT companies get exhorbitant salary NOT bcoz of their work, but because of currency conversion..”

      When are you going to stop this obsession with your idiotic theory of artificial exchange rates? Rupee was trading close to 40 only few years back. UPA has mismanaged the economy and it’s now at 63 because of that. So stop blabbering nonsense that it’s artificially kept high. The other thing is that India imports more than exports. So, a higher exchange rate doesn’t help the country. If Chidambaram had the power to control the exchange rates, he will keep it lower to reduce the current account deficit and the fiscal deficit and not higher.

      The other thing I keep telling the caste brigade is to learn something about economics, bond markets and how they set the long term interest rates, capitalism, free markets etc. Otherwise you people will keep coming up with gems like the author of this blog who said Indians are paying 60 times more money for items because 1 Dollar=60 Rupees… (facepalm)

      • senthil says:

        /** When are you going to stop this obsession with your idiotic theory of artificial exchange rates? **/

        What you are going to come out of your ignorance? The paper currency is NOT the real money.. it is merely a promisary note for Real Silver.. Just look at the rupee note you have.. it will contain the words “I promise to pay the bearer a sum of 100 rupees” .. which means the govt or RBI should pay me 100 rupayah (.7 gms of silver) for every 100rs note..

        Till shivaji’s time, gold and silver are the currencies used.. at that time itself british east india company persuaded shivaji to use their paper currency which was outrightly rejected by him..

        instead of advocating us to learn the Western Capitalistic Systems (which i know more than you), you first study the fundamentals of economic from historic point of view..

        /** Otherwise you people will keep coming up with gems like the author of this blog who said Indians are paying 60 times more money for items because 1 Dollar=60 Rupees…
        **/

        You are so blindfolded that you could NOT understand the severity that i am pointing to.. an american who comes here has to merely spend ONE dollar to buy an object that is worth 60rs for us.. this is naked economic fraud..

        • “which means the govt or RBI should pay me 100 rupayah (.7 gms of silver) for every 100rs note..”

          ROFL!!! Silver is selling at around 45 Rs./gm today.. Why will you pay 100 rupees to RBI and get 0.7 gms of Silver unless you are mentally instable? And where did you get this -theory that 1 Rupayah = 0.7 gms of Silver? India was never into gold standard from independence and the Rupee we have today have absolutely no link with Silver or Gold.. FFS, learn something about money and economics before peddling such nonsensical things..

          “an american who comes here has to merely spend ONE dollar to buy an object that is worth 60rs for us.. this is naked economic fraud..”

          Another stupid thinking.. You know something called purchasing power? You know anything about exchange rates and the strength of the currency?

          Let’s take your own example. An American comes here to buy something for ONE dollar. How’s that related to an Indian buying it for 60 Rs. ? Let’s compare a middle class Indian and an American.. The Indian earns around 40000 Rs per month and the American earns around 5000 Dollars a month.. See the difference? The American is not earning 40000 Dollars a month which is when your comparison works out.

          Besides, there are other things like cost of the items sold, taxes etc. For example, Milk is sold for 40 Rupees in India while the same will cost around 2 Dollars in the US. If you convert, it becomes 120 Rs. Where’s the remaining 80 Rs going? This is for the same item. This is called purchasing power and the other factors like taxation, inflation etc. also play a part.

          So, come out of your stupid mindset and learn some economics before jumping the gun..

          “instead of advocating us to learn the Western Capitalistic Systems (which i know more than you)”

          First, your definition of capitalism is wrong. There’s nothing capitalistic about currency rates, bond markets, exchange rates, fiat currency etc. These are things that evolved over time. If everyone needs to use Gold and Silver for trading, the world do not have enough Gold and Silver for that..

      • senthil says:

        For you info, i am displaying a photocopy of the rupee note..

  42. C.V.Krishna Manoj says:

    Sir, what you have said is quite right. Even no less a person than the learned Paramacharya places the blame at the feet of only the Brahmins – “It is my decided opinion that the Brahmin is responsible for the ruin of Hindu society…”.

    * Continuing he says : “If the Brahmin had not been tempted by the European life-style and if he were willing to live austerely according to the dictates of the sastras, other castes would have come forward to help him. It is not that the others deserted him. He himself ran away from his dharma, from his agrahara, from his village and from the Vedic school because of his new appetite for the life of luxury made possible with the new technology of the West. He forgot his high ideals and paid scant respect of the principle that the body’s requirements are not more that what it takes- in physical terms- to help the well-being of the Self. All told the argument that the Brahmin was compelled to abandon his dharma because he was denied his daily bread does not hold water. We cannot but admit that the Brahmin became greedy, that he yearned far more that what he needed for his sustenance.”

    ** Now comes the clincher: “Were he true to his dharma he would tell himself: “I will continue to adhere to my dharma come what may, even at the risk of death”. With this resolve he could have made a determined effort to pursue Vedic learning and keep up his traditional practices….I would urge the present generation to perform the duties that the past generation neglected to perform. To repeat, you must not forsake your dharma even on pain of Hindu Dharma death. Are we going to remain deathless? As it is we accumulate money and, worse, suffer humiliation and earn the jealousy of others and finally we die losing caste by not remaining true to our dharma….”” !!!!!

    *** Last but not the least : “Is it not better then to starve and yet to be attached firmly to our dharma so long as there is breath in us? Is not such loyalty to our dharma a matter of pride? Why should we care about how others see us, whether they honour us or speak ill of us? So long as we do not compete with them for jobs they will have no cause for jealousy or resentment. Let
    them call us backward or stupid or think that we are not capable of keeping abreast of the times. As we not now already their but of ridicule? Let us be true to our dharma in the face of the mockery of others, even in the face of death. is not such a lot preferable to suffering the slings of
    scorn and criticism earned by forsaking our dharma for the sake of filling our belly?

    *** Also : “Brahmins who had seen no reason to change their life-style during the long Muslim period of our history changed it during British rule. Why? New sciences and machinery came with the white man. The motor car and electricity had their own impact on life there. Brahmins were drawn to comforts and conveniences not thought of before. This could be for a reason for their change of life, but not a justification.”

    – This coming from a man who is much revered by all those so-called successful Brahmins of today nicely engaged in worldly activities. Doesn’t it show that these people only selectively follow him while least admitting that they are on the wrong path, although in a helpless manner. And the rot had started in the South, I am sorry to say, especially in the state of Tamilnadu with the likes of C.V.Raman, his cousin Chandrasekhar, TVS (also Visvesvarayya from Karnataka) before the Independence and after it under the hopeless Macaulayan leadership of the 1st PM – Cognizant(?) etc., and in other states Infosys etc. And mind you I am saying all these not as a atheistic/agnostic, Marxist/Communist, idle baiter of Brahmins but with a genuine angst as a desperate Brahmin myself ! Let us see what the “progressive, secular, rational, scientific” Paramacharya-devoted(of which a lot of fuss is made nowadays online) Brahmins have to answer to these criticisms from their religious idol. In fact how can they? Haven’t they been effectively silenced by that Great Man?

    When Lal Bahadur Sastri was asked whether India could go back to it’s sustainable culture of pre-industrial days, he replied that it was too late and the situation irreversible!! Had Brahmins steadfastly stuck to their tradition, that would significantly reduced the competition for other non-Brahmin unemployed job-seekers whose numbers abound today what with the % of youth population phenomenally increasing which is projected as a “Demographic divindend” waiting to be reaped to our great advantage. And our Govt. on the other hand is giving a clarion call to our youth to become entrepreneurs, thus making them all Vaishyas !!!!

    Long live modern Brahmins !!!

    • senthil says:

      /** When Lal Bahadur Sastri was asked whether India could go back to it’s sustainable culture of pre-industrial days, he replied that it was too late and the situation irreversible!!
      **/

      When lal bahadur shastri was saying this, my grandfather was living in the sustainable ways .. the industrialisation was actually confined to metros while rest of bharath was functioning in traditional ways.. those who were at power wanted to expand the colonial india of metros to rest of bharath, and this is happening till now..

      Modi is going to ring the the death knell by completing the formal destruction of bharath.. lets wait and watch..

      the dubashi brahmins has to understand this existence of india and bharath, and should decide which one they wanted to support and promote..

    • senthil says:

      and thanks for sharing this writings of periyava.. hv to see what those who opposed me have to say regarding this..

      periyava himself has categorically said that it is the dubashi brahmins who are responsible for the destruction of dharma..

      • vyas says:

        Senthil – This is nothing new. I and several others have quoted this statement of periyava several times in this very blog in the past. It is the same periyava who claimed that Kanchi mutt as one of the Mutts established by Adi Shankara until hist samadhi in 1994. Are you ready to agree this one too?

  43. C.V.Krishna Manoj says:

    It is high time our government encouraged at least a section(say 40%) of the new generation Brahmins kids to take to their paramparya vocation by helping them with aid, Agraharas etc. (instead of providing the same for polluting industries planning to be set up by Brahmin entrepreneurs) as is being unjustly done currently for even the affluent BCs and SC/STs (so-called) !! But again these Brahmin kids should not hanker after luxuries once they adopt this new way of life in the name of freedom or that dangerous free will. I believe this is one of the best practical solutions to the problem of Brahmin community’s degeneration today. If there are any other, kindly post them. Incidentally, one pro-capitalist former Director of a PSU(name withheld deliberately) gave a misleading, albeit well-meaning interpretation to the precept of Lord Krishna: “Swadharme Nidhanam Sreyaha, Paradharmo Bhayavaha” : “PSUs should attend only to their actual business, and not to socialist welfare activities life employee living quarters and other such free facilities ” !!!

    • senthil says:

      @C.V.Krishna Manoj

      This government is the core of all the destruction today.. it is foolish to expect this government to do good to us..

      you havd to understand that we have NOT got the real freedom, and what happened in 1947 was mere transfer of power from british to their stooges..

      we need to understand the pre-british native administrative structure to understand the role of temples and brahmins..

      the current system is totally alien, and pls dont think within this system.. come out of this system, and look at what we had before this system was imposed on us..

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