I am posting this particular comment of Raghavan Srinivasan as separate post. He has beautifully explained how english educated brahmins drifted away from dharma..
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@vyasa2
I have no idea about brahmins or anti-brahmin sentiments in parts of India other than Tamilnadu. I am but a frog croaking from my Tamilnadu well and can speak from that limited perspective only! At the risk of repetition kindly allow me to suggest a few clarifications.
I agree that it was indeed the British who were the primary villains in undermining Indian society. I also agree that the brahmins did not side with the British with the intent of maliciously oppressing others. The British ruled India with the idea of looting its riches. They rearranged the Indian society to cement their hold on the country and facilitate transfer of wealth to Britain. It was plain loot and the entire society became impoverished in the process. Some brahmins also realized the error of fraternizing British institutions and participated in the freedom struggle. All said and done, the brahmins, by falling into that trap set by the British, (knowingly or unknowingly) became accessories to the mischief and were seen as collaborators. Leave alone the Mughal and British eras, even now a lot of brahmins are true to their Dharma. The grievance of the other communities was caused by the brahmins deserting their dharma, NOT because they were true to it.
All brahmins were not only archakas. They were into other professions also, but always allied to academics and having altruism as a foundation of whatever profession they adopted. The “anushtaanam” here was adherence to academicia and altruism. They were teachers, priests, astrologers, poets, and advisors to the rulers (example, Chanakya). At no point were they money lenders, labourers or soldiers (at least in Tamilnadu!). You may say that the Sungas were brahmins as were the Peshwas, but these examples were only aberrations and NOT the norm.
In ancient times education, power, wealth and labour and compartmentalized as separate silos and a community was forbid from acquiring more than one of these. This arrangement counteracted tendencies for aggrandizement, made each community dependent on the others and contributed for social cohesion. A brahmin with English education under the British acquired an erstwhile forbidden taste for wealth and power and started to overlord the other communities. This was precisely the reason why the ancients forbid the brahmin from wielding wealth or power.
A brahmin could not ‘commoditize’ his knowledge. Denial of service by a brahmin on grounds of affordability or selling to the highest bidder would both be construed as trade – the prerogative of the vaishyas. I think that is the principle behind the dakshina – receiving wholeheartedly whatever is offered – a ‘pay what you can’ concept and that is how the brahmins functioned in the past. Society did not expect any free service from the brahmin – after all he also had to survive. It did expect him NOT to fix a fee and be rigid to the extent of denying services to others. Please also refer Dharmpal’s book ‘The Beautiful Tree’ which describes the education system in India as seen by the British Collectors and officials.
A dakshina demanded with an ulterior motive would not really be honourable and Dronacharya cannot be held as the ideal example of a brahmana. Using your own example, if a brahmin doctor in private practice said his fee was 100 rupees and if a poor patient went away without consulting him because he could not afford his fees, would you say the brahmin doctor is true to the brahmana dharma? Is he not commoditizing his education and selling to a higher bidder – in other words, engaging in trade? Do you still consider him to be a brahmin, even if he did his sandhyavandhanam religiously? Far worse would be the brahmin doctor building a private hospital and making a profit – imagine a so called brahmin making a profit from another man’s distress. You may say the brahmin doctor is doing a ‘service’ in providing treatment, but then should he not adopt a ‘pay what you can’ system to deserve the service halo? The motive behind fixing the fees is to make money and not really to ‘serve the poor’, isn’t it? By saying all this I am not blurring any lines. On the contrary, the lines blur only when the brahmin learns English medicine, becomes a private / corporate doctor, and starts to make money from the sick.
It was the dharma of a vaishya to generate wealth in a honourable manner, and naturally they were interested in wealth. Avarice was certainly condemned. In Roman times, India was considered to be a ‘gold sink’ and the Romans were so worried about their depleting treasury that they started to debase their coinage. The Indian traders retaliated by curtailing trade with the Romans. How can a trader NOT be interested in money? A money lender could have ‘adhyatmik chinthana’ and engage in philanthropy etc, but the minute he sat behind his counter he had better be sure all his debtors repaid their loans in time! Altruistic ‘pay as you can’ dakshina schemes have obviously no place here! Statements like ‘no one’s money or everyones money’ do not follow the logic of the market place and for a vaishya to be like that would invite only disaster.
Becoming a dubashi i.e acquiring English education in itself does not make anybody adharmic. Becoming a dubashi and misapplying the varna instinct is what is adharma. As I have explained before, the other communities (at least in Tamilnadu) after becoming dubashi, are now venturing into fields not really appropriate for commerce, for example education and medicine. At least the other communities can say, “You brahmins set the example first.We merely followed you because, during all these years we really were implicitly following whatever you said!” Still, the other communities, even after becoming dubashi, could remain true to their varna dharma. For example, a trader can apply modern computer and mathematical skills, become phenomenally successful in Dalal Street and yet be true to his varna dharma. A brahmin who uses the very same formulae becomes a trader and hence fails his dharma. A brahmin can design the programme, but pressing the ‘Buy/Sell – Yes/No’ button was the prerogative of the vaishya. Similarly a brahmin can design the best rifles, but pointing the weapon at the enemy and pulling the trigger is NOT his prerogative.
As for the statement of sweepers following their svadharma according to their svabhava, it was made in the context of varnas and occupations. Of course housewives also contribute to the prosperity of the nation by upholding their dharma, but that issue is out of context here.
வர்ணாஸ்ரமத்தில் உள்ள எவரும் அவரவர் தர்மத்தை கடைப்பிடிக்காமல் பாதை மாறி உள்ளனர் தான் உண்மை நிலை.இதிலும் பிராம்மணர்களை மட்டும்”குறி” ஏன்
வைக்க வேண்டும்.இக்கட்டுரை எழுதிய “ஸ்ரீநிவாசராகவன்” ஏன் விதிவிலக்காக
இருந்து அந்த ‘அனுஷ்ட்டானங்களை” செய்யவில்லை/கூடாது?இது காலத்தின்
கட்டாயம்.கால தேவன் விரும்பும் மாற்றத்தை அற்ப பதர்களான நாம் யார் முடிவு
செய்ய!காந்சி மஹாஸ்வாமிகள் கூட காலத்தின் கட்டாயம் என்று சொல்லியதாக
சிலர் சொல்கின்றனர்.கருமசித்தன் காலம் முடிந்து இப்போது 18/19ம் நூற்றாண்டில் ஞானசித்தனின் காலம் நடக்கிறது.அதனால் தான் விஞ்ஞானம் மிகப்பெரிய அளவில் வளர்ச்சி அடைந்துள்ளது.வள்ளளார் திரு இராமலிங்க அடிகளாரின் 6ம்
திருமுறையில் விவரமாக அவர் எழுதிஉள்ளார்.
the answer for your question lies in this article itself..
வர்ணாஸ்ர தர்மம் பிராம்மணருக்கு மாத்திரம் விதிக்கப்பட்டது அல்ல.எல்லா வர்ணத்தினருக்கும் பொருந்தும்.க்ஷத்ரியர்,வைசியர்,சூத்திரர்
எல்லோரும் மீறி உள்ளனர்.இதில் குறைந்த அளவு மீறியது சூத்திரர்கள்
தான்.பிராம்மணர் தான் தர்மத்தை கடைபிடிப்பவன்/காப்பாற்றுபவன் என்ற அணுகு முறையில் எழுதப்பட்ட கட்டுரை இது.பிராம்மணர்களுக்கு அதிகப்படியான கடமைகள் கர்ம சித்தன் காலத்தில் எற்படுத்தப்பட்டது.அறு தொழில் புரிவோன் என்று வள்ளுவரும் குறிப்பிடுகின்றார்.யாகம் செய்வது/செய்விப்பது,வேதம் கற்றுக்கொடுப்பது/கற்றுக்கொள்வது,தானம் வாங்குவது/கொடுப்பது. இந்த மூன்றையும் நடத்த மாறிய ஞான சித்தன்
கால சமுதாயத்தில் யாரும் தயாராக இல்லை.
English is just another language. So is Sanskrit. Or Tamil. Or Hindi. Just a series of sounds to communicate. Let’s not attach any emotional significance to any of them.
A language is successful if lots of people speak it. That’s all. If fewer people speak a certain language, it is less important. The only purpose of language is to communicate.
Every language represents the culture .. you cannot reduce it to a mere communicating tool..
Don’t think so. Culture directly descends from civilization IMO. Assume that TamilNadu has a unique culture which is called as Tamil culture. If you replace just the language with another, does the culture dies along with it? The japanese are japanese no matter what language they speak. The Brahmins follow the Vedic culture throughout the country no matter what language they speak.
Try replacing english for sanskrit mantras chanted in temples..
You are confusing ethnicity with culture.. japanese use their language in every parts of their life.. they learn through japanese language..
“The only purpose of language is to communicate”
says a mentally colonized fellow. I guess the literature and drama in your language either does not exist or you have never read it. To simply say that the purpose of language is to communicate is as stupid as saying the purpose of erotica is for procreation. It is much more than that. I pity the fellow who is so shallow and mentally removed from his mother language that he cannot see the beauty in poetry, drama, the use of similies in a language that cannot be easily translated into others.
You did 2+2=5 , and think you have a neat answer.What you did is redefine ancient varna profession rules for non Brahmins as per European style,since Europe doesn’t have an equivalent version of Brahmins you retained ancient varna profession rules for current brahmins.Also can you please elaborate what is Dharma to you? Are you tailoring dharma to profession for convenience?
What raghavan srinivasan proposes is to delink profession from dharma, and apply the essense of dharma to any profession a brahmin might take.. in that sense, he said, that the as per brahmana dharma prevents, a brahmin should not sell his services.. apply this to modern profession..
While we may not entirely agree with him, he puts forwards a different but more deeper perspective..
That’s what I said. I’m not debating about profession.He has applied ancient brahmana dharma of profession(for dharma is much more, and sometimes like you said purpose makes dharma like apatdharma) to modern day Brahmins but redefined that of non brahmins (for they had a dharma of profession too)as per European ethics..It is like 2+2=5 or a dharma made for his purpose
which you find as deep perspective.
@vyasa2,
You are obsessed with non-brahmins for all the time.. even if all non-brahmins threw away their dharma, a brahmana should still follow his.. do you agree? or do you make brahmana dharma as conditional?
I am not sure if “profession can be delinked from dharma” or “the essence of dharma be applied to any profession a brahmin may take”. I have given my assumptions on these concepts as follows:
If we accept that Dharma is immutable and our scriptures exhort us to do our duty according to our dharma, how can one divorce his dharma from his profession? Also if we agree a person has to follow his Dharma at all times (not merely whenever it is convenient for him) it then means he cannot choose a profession which is contrary to his Dharma, isn’t it?
Taking this concept a bit further, I would also suggest that ALL professions are NOT open for brahmins. They can choose only those occupations which are not contrary to their svabhava, because svabhavaniyatam karma kuru -work as per your svabhava, and even if paradharmas – other dharmas, are all svanushtithaat – followed well, it leads only to kilbisham – sin. Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 18, Verse 47.
Nowadays brahmins who realize the error of their ways and desire to reform, may feel trapped in their dubashi professions due to circumstances beyond their control with no hope of escape. For example the brahmin doctor in private practice who desires to follow the brahmana dharma, may, by having a ‘pay what you can’ system in his clinic, be to a certain extent if not in full measure, true to the spirit of the brahmana dharma – sreyan svadharmo vigunah: better is one’s own duty, even if imperfectly performed! (The initial part of the above sloka).
Having said that the essence of brahmana dharma cannot be applied to all professions, for example, to point a particularly ghastly example, in an abattoir! There is simply no place for a brahmin in such a situation!
//Try replacing english for sanskrit mantras chanted in temples..//
You are mistaken. Sanskrit is not a language in a true sense. This is why it was never a spoken medium predominantly. It is a simply a set of sounds meant to cause some reverberations. Sanskrit is irreplaceable with any language for that matter. This is why we oppose those DK idiots who advocate for Tamil inside the garba graha. The modern sanskrit that you see as a language was artificially formed out of the Vedic sounds acquired from Brahma Lipi.
//You are confusing ethnicity with culture.. japanese use their language in every parts of their life.. they learn through japanese language..//
So what according to you the people of India are? Do you mean to say that each group here which speaks a different language is ethnically different?
@vyas,
So many words from sanskrit found all across indic languages.. even tamil has 42% of its words derived from sanskrit.. in such case, you cannot just replace a language for a culture.. language doesnt exist independantly..
/**So what according to you the people of India are? Do you mean to say that each group here which speaks a different language is ethnically different?
**/
Yes.. the political and administrative structure india today is british version.. but as per our original version, we see our land as below..
bharatha varsham (the whole south east asia)
bharatha kandam (undivided india + srilanka & burma)
56 dhesams (magatha, mithila, saurashtra, konkan, maratha, telengana, kalinga, chola, pandya, chera etc)
Each dhesam is a distinct society, with distinct culture.. but all are binded by a common civilizational framework..
I will write separate post on this..
//So many words from sanskrit found all across indic languages.. even tamil has 42% of its words derived from sanskrit.. in such case, you cannot just replace a language for a culture.. language doesnt exist independantly..//
Again you are just concentrating on the spoken part of Sanskrit, but according to me it’s far more than that. I agree that culture and language are intertwined, but my argument is that the same culture can boast many languages and replacing a language does not destroy the culture completely. It may be disturbed a bit but can be restored after a while.
///**So what according to you the people of India are? Do you mean to say that each group here which speaks a different language is ethnically different?//
Senthil – Ethnicity is directly proportional to race. If you say we are ethnically different, then we should be racially different too. In that case may I take it that you agree that we racially different but just don’t believe in Aryan Invasion?
//Each dhesam is a distinct society, with distinct culture.. but all are binded by a common civilizational framework..//
Exactly. My question is what made our people call the present post British India as Bharatha Varsha? Why didn’t they claim china as part of this Bharatha Varsha?
/** and replacing a language does not destroy the culture completely **/
No.. pls see the “Tamil Ini” video in last article comment.. language defines the thought process, which in turn defines the culture..
/** Senthil – Ethnicity is directly proportional to race. **/
Actually there is no proper definition of ethnicity… this is the problem with using english vocabularies..
We may or may not be racially different among ourselves.. but that’s not an important thing.. we have common civilizational pattern..
/** Exactly. My question is what made our people call the present post British India as Bharatha Varsha? Why didn’t they claim china as part of this Bharatha Varsha?
**/
Post British india inherited the british definition of india, and british political and administrative structure..
Varsha has different meaning.. it means rain.. the areas having common monsoon patterns are grouped as varsha.. the northern border of bharatha varsha is the entire stretch of himalayas.. So china cannot become part of bharatha varsha..
I would be interested in the commentators views on “HOW the English educated brahmins can be Dharmic?” i.e by what anushtaanams can an English educated brahmin become Dharmic?
@Raghavan
When it comes to vedic practices,tapasvis,meditation etc it is not one-one mapping with good deeds,bad deeds.But no good deed is free ticket to bad behavior,deed.
Human mind stuck in logic can only identify morality related deeds as good eds.Which was main reason why avaidic religions,Abrahamic religions were able to make fun of vaidic practices.Vedic practices are very intense,difficult,are very beyond avg logic but are very highly rewarding both to the person and society .Catch is the reward will not be easily obvious like result of meritorious degree or successful job so much so that the person enjoying the reward wouldn’t even realize the source of his pleasure unless he is deep analyst.,
I’m not keen about going into deeper aspects as mostly they will be difficult to uderstand and easy to misunderstand.
Anyways coming to you question of anushtana even simple act like the postion,location the person consumes his meals itself has major impact on the flow of energy in him and his surroundings .The way brahmins eat their food without shirt, starting with oupasana is equivalent to one aspect of yaga which in simple parlance is high energy for them and surroundings.You will see even in the
case of a adharmic corporate Brahmin houses too that they will just not eat meals sitting on the bed .Basic strict practices mostly do’s ,donots, touch,touch nots then sandhya which is immense energy practice ,vegetarianism which even jains follow strictly,many more daily Brahmin practices to other hi-fi practises ,following which is possible only to those born and brought up in Brahmin environment,constitute anusthana dharma.Now vruthi dharma is just one aspect of the dharma.
Mr.Raghavan Srinivasan (for our discussion further given below certain views of Swami Dayananda)
Order of Dharma (Swami Dayananda)
“If everything is not only a creation but manifestation of Ishvara, Dharma is also His manifestation, not a mandate. This is the Vedic view of Dharma. That is the reason why end does not justify the means. For the sake of Ishvara you cannot do anything against dharma, which is not separate from Ishvara”
In a given situation what is proper and needs to be done is Dharma, which is not-separated from Ishvara. I may get away from the hands of local laws, but I cannot get away from the law of dharma because it is Ishvara Himself. If I rub gainst dharma, I get rubbed. Action and reaction are not only equal, they are opposite too. So when I go against dharma, I attract what is called Papa and when I go with dharma, reach out to do something which helps another person, I attract whis is called Punya. The Papa and Punya ar realities for us.. Therefore, the law of Karma also is Ishvara. Dharma and Karma (Papa & Punya) are both sides of one and the same coin.
For a vaidika (one who follows Vedic tradition) who accepts with total understanding that this world including one’s own body-mind-sense complex is the Lord’s manifestation, any form of prayer and worship is valid. Every name and form is valid enough to invoke the Lord., the lord being every name and form. But prayer either mental, oral or ritualistic is a karma, capable of producing a result The given result is not the goal of religions much less the goal of any individual even if one thinks so. The goal of an informed vaidika is freedom from a sense of limitation centered on ‘I’. Can there bean ultimate goal for a human being other than this? This freedom, moksha, from this sense of limitation is the human goal. The veda says that the sense of limitation is due to one not knowing oneself. Then it is obvious that the human goal is self-knowledge. So all that a vaidika can say is “all forms of prayer are valid”. Being a act, a karma, each prayer can produce a limited result. One wants a limited result too in life. But it can never be the goal of religion much less of a human being.
Snethil/Raghavan Sir – What are your views on Varna by birth? We had a lengthier discussion about this in this forum, but I see that a lot of corporate Brahmins (like Subramania Swamy) keep quoting the following line from Bhagavad Gita to claim that Varna was not birth based in those days. What are your views on the same?
“CHATUR VARNYAM MAYAA SRISHTAM GUNA KARMA VIBHAGASHAHA …”
We will discuss this in separate post.. pls wait..
/** You are obsessed with non-brahmins for all the time **/
Stop trying to give me inferiority complex,Caste hijacker,offended by dubashi,unjust, and now this.I didn’t do the non brhamin,brhamin,Dalal street etc comparison, I didn’t write this article.Comparing is always tricky
जन्मना जायते शूद्रः. संस्कारात् द्विजं उच्यते |
वेद-पाठात् भवेत् विप्रः ब्रह्म जानाति ब्राह्मणः| स्कंदपुराण ६.२३९.३१
Perhaps this is a more appropriate verse.
திரு. செந்திலின் கொள்கைகள் மிகவும் வினோதமானது!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. வர்ணம் என்பது பிறப்பின் அடைபடையில்தான் என்கிறார். ஆனால் விவசாயத்தை பரம்பரை தொழிலாக கொண்ட அவர் தன்னுடைய வர்ணம் சூத்திரர்தான் என்பதை ஏற்காமல் தன்னுடைய வர்ணம் எது என்று சரியாக தெரியாது என்கிறார்.
2. தீண்டாமை தவறு இல்லை என்பதில் உருதியாகயிருக்கிறார். அவர்கள் அடங்கி இருப்பதற்காக சில கட்டுபாடுகள் சமூகத்தில் ஏற்படுத்தப்பட்டனவே அன்றி அவர்களை ஒடுக்குவதற்காக அல்ல என்கிறார்.
3. பலவகை வழிபாடுகளை கொண்ட பாரதசமூகத்தை ஒரு தனி அடையானமான ஹிந்து ஹிந்துத்துவம் என்று வரையறுப்பதை அவர் எதிர்கிறார். இவ்வாறு அப்பிரஹாமிய மதங்களைப் போல் ஒருமுக தன்மை கொண்டு அடையாளப் படுத்துவது பண்முகதன்மை கொண்ட பாரத கலாசாரத்தை கெடுக்கும் என்கிறார்
4. களப்பிரர் காலம் தொடங்கி நாயகர் காலம் இஸ்லாமியர் ஆக்கிரமிப்பு கிழகிந்திய கம்பெனி வியாபாரம் பிரிட்டிஷ் ஆளுமை போன்ற காலகட்டங்களில் மற்றவர்ணத்தவர்தாம் மிகுதியாக துபாஷிகளாக மாறி நாட்டை காட்டிகொடுத்தல் கூட்டிக்கொடுத்தல் போன்ற செயல்களை செய்துவந்தனர் என்பதை ஏற்க்காமல் பிரிட்டிஷ் ஆளுமையின் போது வெகுவான பிராமிணர்கள் துபாஷிகாளக மாறியதால்தான் சமூகம் கெட்டுவிட்டது போல் சித்திரம் தீட்டுகிறார். களப்பிரர்கள் காலத்தில் தொடங்கி நாயகர்கள் காலத்தில் ஏற்படுத்திய வெள்ளாளர் நாயகர் கூட்டணி நீதிக்கட்சி தி.மு.க என்று தொடர்ந்து அன்நியனுக்கு சேவகம் செய்வதையே அடிமை புத்தியுடன் ஒரு கொள்கையாக கொண்டு இன்றுவரை செயல்பட்டு வருகிறார்கள் என்பதை முழுவதுமாக ஏற்கமறுக்கிறார்
5. இப்பொழுது பிராமிணன் வைதீகத்தை கைவிட்டதால்தான் சமூகம் கெட்டுவிட்டது அதனால் வைதீகனை முன்னேற்ற சமூகம் பாடுபடவேண்டும் என்கிறார் எப்படி அவன் ஏன் கெட்டான் என்பதை பற்றிய ஆராச்சிகளை எல்லா ஒருசேர ஒதுக்கி தள்ளிவிட்டு.
6. (The need of the Hour) கோவில்களில் அரசாங்கத்தின் ஆக்ரமிப்பு- கட்டுக் கடங்காமல் அதிகரித்துக்கொண்டிருக்கும் மதமாற்றங்கள்-தீவிரவாத தாக்குதல்கள்- கட்டுபடுத்தமுடியாத நிலையையில் நாட்டில் நடந்துவரும் ஊழல் கொள்ளைகள் இவற்றிற்கு ஒரு தீர்வை ஏற்படுத்திவிட்டு ஹிந்து சமூகம் உயிர் பெற்று எழுமானால் மாறிய சமூகம் ஒட்டுமொத்தமாக ஒருமனதாக பிராமிணவெறுப்பை ஒதுக்கி ஆதரவு தறுமானால் நிச்சயமாக எல்லா பிராமிணர்களும் காலப் போக்கில் தங்கள் வர்ண தர்மத்தை பின்பற்றுவார்கள் என்பதுதான் நிதர்சனம். இது நடக்குமா ?????????
திரு வேதம் கோபால்..
1. வர்ணம் பிறப்பிலானதா என்பதை பற்றி தனி பதிவில் விவாதிக்கலாம்..
2. களப்பிரர், நாயக்கர் கால வரலாற்றை “ஹின்து” சாயலோடு படிக்காமல், உள்ளது உள்ளபடி நடுநிலையாக புரிந்து கொள்ள வேண்டியது அவசியம்..
3. நீங்களே ஒரு “ஹிண்து” சமூகத்தை கற்பனை செய்து கொண்டு, அந்த சமூகம் இதை செய்யவில்லை, அதை செய்யவில்லை என்று புலம்புவது நிறுத்தப்பட வேண்டும்.. இதை நாம் தனி பதிவில் பார்க்கலாம்..
கடைசியாக நான் சொல்வது வினோதமானதா இல்லையா என்பது முக்கியமல்ல.. நான் சொல்வது உண்மையா இல்லையா என்பதே முக்கியம்.. அதுதான் என்னுடைய அளவுகோல்..
Being a father of two daughters and son of a working women and from a family where tracing any nonworking women in the past 50 years is next to impossible I find the arguments extremely distressing .The arguments are basically rants of confused male chauvunists longing for the old chavunistic days where patriarchy reigned supreme among all castes
Have you ever moved with girls within and outside the family.Do you know what they feel about their role in your utopia.Marriage problems for dubashis of any varna or vaideeha traditionals of any varna is due to the women crossing the barriers of caste when exposed to education and job opportunities a fact which the Dollar earning retarded desis(DERD) are unable to digest
Its a all male show and the progressives can breathe easy with the plans for revival of tradition and varna based professions/untouchability as half of the population is on their side without any effort
Its amusing to see the talk,plan,strategies about whom a vaideeha or dubashi family girl should marry without having any consideration for the concerned individual.Its simply an male issue and periods in history when polygamy was the norm and widows where treated worser than animals are glorified
If you really want a quick overview of the people who spew venom in this page, imagine how you would maintain a cow right from it being a calf, to it being dead. Write it down in at least 10 bullet point steps… Now replace the word cow with woman… Alas you arrive at finding the views of the male chauvinists posting in this page..
and you people, who mortgage yourself for corporate companies, and get kicked at your butt for not doing what is ordered is speaking about cattles and freedom..
@poovannan,
I had earlier requested you NOT to distract the core discussions.. If you believe in westernised concepts of individual rights, you have the freedom to pursue that.. if you feel, people are just individuals, and NOT part of any commune, it is your own right.. No one prevents you from having your belief.. you can join with other like minded people..
But you have no right to dictate Universal Morality to every one.. you have no right to label me or others.. the society existed as free and self-sustainable commune for thousands of years, and we are speaking about sustaining that.. if you dont like this, you can abstain from this discussion.. Labelling as male chavunists is beyond your limits..
@poovannan,
This post does not discuss about women alone.. it also discussed about whom a vaideeha men should marry.. and what customs and practices he should follow.. dont drag your perverted individual rights here.. and dont sensationalise here by projecting women’s rights alone..
@senthil
I am all for people to follow the way of life they want to or like.i am not advocating the forcible conversion of any vaideeha or dubashi or their separation but just support their choice to do what they want. I have no issues with a dubashi or his next generation becoming a vaideeha or viceversa
I just support any caste/women if they want to become vaideeha or dubashi on the basis of their longings and inner call.are you for that
You stand for rigid compartmentalisation and no individual rights or choices and you blame me of forcing my way of life on others. kindly analyse the anomaly.
@Ponvannan
From where did you get this stupid lifestyle through inner call? It was from the West. Our way of life was not driven through inner call but through dharma. Every child born was motivated to follow his/her dharma and was not driven through self interest. Don’t you ever advocate or impose the lifestyle driven by self interest on others. If you want to follow it, go ahead and we have absolutely no issues with it. If one follows a dharmic lifestyle he has to abide by certain rules and that’s what we are emphasizing here in this forum. Again, we are not forcing it on anyone, we are just establishing a platform for taking a collective decision in the future. Are the corporates not taking a decision which the employees are asked to follow? It’s the stupid self interest oriented lifestyle is the one which has made the whole world a chaos. We don’t need it, but we have become victims of it for the past 3 generations. We want to get rid of it. This forum is just a medium for establishing a platform for the future generation. We will succeed one day but don’t know when. Even if we don’t at least discussions like this will act as a bridge for carrying forward our thoughts to the next generation.
@poovannan,
/** i am not advocating the forcible conversion of any vaideeha or dubashi or their separation but just support their choice to do what they want
**/
Please quote any where in this article (including comments), where we had advocated applying force?
We are only discussing about creating suitable environments for vaideeha life style, and you are mis-interpreting it as something forced..
You are discussing on how they are not getting a bride and consider the bride as a commodity/propertywho has no choices and are pleading with the dubashis for leaving that property for vaideeha.Am i right
Are you not denying or rather forcing the females to be silent spectators on who their suitors should be and what should be their profession/style of life
You have no issues with the males if they quit their professions and just plead with them to get separated but have no similar choices for the females.Is it fair
Why should a women in vaideeha or dubashi have no choice in selecting her partner or profession.
In a Dharmic paradigm a wife is considered a Dharmapathni and marriage between a boy and a girl is for perpetuation of Dharma. A wife is not a slave or a chattel, but an equal partner of the man and is her presence is essential for the fruition of all dharmic acts. A man and his wife are considered a fundamental unit of a family in the Dharmic model. Neither a man or a woman alone get the same respect individually as conferred on them together as a couple. No yagam or dhanam would be complete without the presence of the wife by the side of the man. In fact, only a married man with a living wife can offer pujas to God in the garbagriha of a temple. Neither brahmacharis or widowers are permitted inside. Literally and figuratively vaideeha wives have to ‘stand by their men’ or else Dharma cannot be observed!
This whole discussion is based on the fact that once upon a time the then vaideeha brahmins abandoned their Dharma to become dubashi. Nobody is condoning the male for breaking the rules and as you can see from the discussions, the Hindutva brahmins are criticized and the westernised brahmins are reviled for their respective adharmic behaviors. What holds true for the men also holds true for the women and what is considered adharma for a male is adharma for a female also. A vaideeha woman who abandons her tradition not only commits adharma, but, more importantly, she impinges on the ability of a corresponding vaideeha male who would have married her from continuing his ‘anushtaanam’ of Dharma.
Usually women marry ‘equal’ or ‘up’ in an economic scale and only very rarely do they marry ‘down’. Dubashi brahmin families are usually wealthier than vaideeha families and usually vaideeha girls are married to dubashi boys. The converse, dubashi girls marrying vaideeha boys is very rare. As I have explained earlier, a dubashi brahmin boy on marrying a vaideeha girl, perpetuates his adharmic lifestyle, willy-nilly drags the innocent girl along with him into adharma and also becomes instrumental in blighting the traditional order and hence deserves to be discouraged from doing so.
As long as a girl follows Dharma she has her ‘swathantriyam’ of choosing her life partner. Aiding her in case she decides on an adharmic path would be tantamount to colluding in the breakdown of dharma. However, at the end of the day, no force is used to imprison anybody in any system against their will. A vaideeha girl wishing to abandon her tradition is free to do it, but then she should be prepared for the consequences that would follow upon “rubbing Dharma the wrong way”. This same logic would apply for any profession she might choose.
In my limited understanding these are the codes to be followed in a Dharmic paradigm. In a Western non-dharmic paradigm, emphasis is placed on individual liberty. This is because those cultures developed from slave owning societies and naturally personal liberty is given very high importance. Applying the rules of one model to the other will always result in bewilderment. A person has to make a choice between these two models rather than be like a ‘tirisangu’ Hindutva brahmin with a foot in either bank claiming to be following Dharma while still enjoying the material comforts of a non-Dharmic mode of life!
@poovannan,
/** You are discussing on how they are not getting a bride and consider the bride as a commodity/propertywho has no choices and are pleading with the dubashis for leaving that property for vaideeha
**/
The problem is with your perspective for which i could not answer.. you are deliberately twisting and manipulating even this straight forward issues..
@raghavan Srinivasan,
what you told is followed in almost all traditional societies..
Recently when i went to my kula temple, the drum beater who lost his wife did not come.. the reason cited is that he can beat drums in temple, only when his wife is alive..
Similarly, for any auspicious occasions, the sumangali is invited.. and for marriages, only living couples are invited..
This tradition is common for all communities part of varna dharma..
I am indeed thankful to Sri Vedamgopal and @vaysa2 for their considered responses to my query. At the risk of sounding like a gramophone record with a scratch, I would like to elaborate a bit on the dakshina system.
Dakshina and Innovative Disruption:
Adoption of the dakshina system of payment wherever possible by a Hindutva brahmin will have a most disruptive effect on the remuneration of knowledge. Nowadays, the price of education is determined by the market – demand vs supply and the utility of a particular degree / qualification to earn money. For example, medicine. Demand is more, supply is less and all doctors are perceived to be making a lot of money. Naturally capitation fees for a medical postgraduate degree are quite high.
The gesture of brahmins with high quality expertise (management, technical etc) volunteering their services to businesses and educational institutions operated by other communities on a dakshina system will effectively serve to delink merit and expertise from remuneration. When such a disruption takes place, academic knowledge will cease to demand a high monetary price in terms of remuneration. This will again disrupt the need for all and sundry to ‘earn’ (literally and figuratively) a degree from an elite institute as an investment to make money. When people comprehend the fact that a place in an elite institute is no guarantee for a fat paycheck, the demand for such seats will automatically come down. This will in turn leave the field open to persons who are genuinely interested in the subject (rather than in using the subject to make money).
Let me explain this further with an example. Suppose the brahmin doctor in our earlier example were to volunteer his services in a private (NOT a corporate) hospital on a dakshina basis, he would delink his medical expertise from his remuneration. The owner of the hospital (belonging to the other community) would have no reason to employ anybody else at a higher salary. If this situation was widely replicated in other private hospitals also, there would be less and less justification for a person to spend crores in capitation fees etc to become a doctor. (If anybody says that he spends a crore as capitation fees to become a doctor with an avowed intention of ‘serving the poor’, I might as well accept that we all watch women’s beach volleyball to appreciate the sport!). I have used medicine as an example because it is a profession based on knowledge and very much prone for abuse in the form of “commercialization”. Once the coupling between higher education and remuneration is broken, the demand for seats in such educational institutions will reduce because people interested in the seat for its future earnings potential will not be concerned anymore. In such a scenario only persons who wish to practice medicine in a genuine manner will want to become doctors and those who spend a crore as an investment for the ‘doctor business’ will take their money elsewhere.
The salutary effects of this system will be initially seen at the higher echelons. A person who wishes to obtain a Ph.D with just an idea of earning a higher salary will loose interest because the monetary benefit of doing a Ph.D is lost . This will open the field to persons genuinely interested in research and the productivity of such bonafide researchers will always be superior to the others for whom the Ph.D is just a means to a better pay scale. This will over a period of time trickle lower down the hierarchy so that in the end only persons genuinely interested in research or teaching will remain in the field.
This system presupposes that brahmins will volunteer only for professions which were traditionally their preserve, like education. A brahmin volunteering as a laborer under the dhakshina scheme is unacceptable because it unfairly encroaches on the privileges of other communities.
This system would, as Sri Vedam Gopal says, “rub Dharma in the right way” not only at an individual level by giving a chance for the brahmin to conform to his Dharma, but will also prevent misapplication of the varna instinct by the other communities in an inappropriate manner.
The brahmin deserted his Dharma and set a bad example for the others. He now has a chance to follow a dharmic lifestyle in the manner explained above. Will the brahmin rise to the challenge?
I had also thought the same.. the infrastructure, and operating expenses would be maintained by other communities.. and brahmins will focus on his job alone, free from administrative overhead.. This will create a right kind of balance, and be dharmic..
I disagree with this. Please allow me to explain my disagreement.
A doctor profession is not an exclusive preserve of a brahmin. If a brahmin used the Dakshina system for medical practice, he is actually commiting a crime against other jatis who are also practicing medicine by taking their compensation away and giving it for dakshina. This is adharma and very sinful. Actually it makes very little sense.
On the other hand, per the description and intent of brahmana varna, all that the society expects of a brahmin is preservation of the Veda and be a repository of other knowledge. Nothing more nothing less. In return for keeping the collective memory alive, the other varnas will support this brahmana varna with just enough for a vaidika practitioner to feed & clothe his family.
Where does Medicine and its practice come into the picture? an extension can be argued that the brahmana varna could be the repository of the knowledge of medicine, but the actual practice should be performed by somebody else, and since medicine at its very basic level is a artisan profession, it should be technically be performed by a shudra. When a brahman engages in a practice that denies the shudra his rightfully high compensation, then per varna dharma, it is the brahmin who is breaking the rules.
If high compensation is demanded by the shudra in practice of his profession (eg. medicine), then there will be enough shudras will take up the profession to normalize the compensation to a reasonable level. the same happens with carpentry, masonry etc.,so why should medicine be any different?
The whole varna dharma rests on the fact that the 3 varnas exist to serve the numerically superior shudras. Not the other way around as is usually portrayed.
Regards.
And i would like stress that the initiative should come from brahmin.. when a brahmin whole heartedly offers his service on dakshina basis, other communities will come forward to help him to build necessary infrastructure..
I agree. But not completely. The caste based reservations are not easy to give up for many too. It may not be as easy as it seems to ask Brahmins to give up the narrative when the reciprocation wont happen from the other side.
Just a point of view.
@vv
Thank you very much for your comments.
I completely agree with your observation – brahmins should not offer their services on the basis of the dakshina system in situations which will unfairly encroach on the privileges of other communities. Such an act would certainly be adharma.
I used medicine only as an example in the context of 1. delinking knowledge from earning money in certain situations and 2. as an example to highlight how other communities can misuse their varna instinct in an inappropriate manner, AND NOT to imply that doctoring be the exclusive preserve of brahmins.
1. A brahmana can acquire medical knowledge i.e become a doctor and impart it to others as a teacher (in a dakshina system). It is certainly adharmic if he builds a private practice and links his medical knowledge to capability to earn money.
2. A doctor always has vastly superior knowledge than a patient. Such a gross information asymmetry rarely exists in other common transactions like buying furniture, a shirt or brinjals in the market. In these situations a buyer also has some idea about the worth of the product being bought and is not completely dependent on the seller’s spiel. A patient (buyer in private medical practice) on the other hand is completely ignorant of his medical condition and is fully dependent of the doctor (the seller) to do the “correct” thing and not take advantage of his (patient’s) ignorance.
Private / Corporate hospitals are built to make a profit and needless to say, the doctors work there to make a profit. Combine this with the ‘buyer’s (patient’s)’ extreme ignorance about the ‘transaction (treatment)’ and you have a situation ripe for abuse. A vaishya would see this as a God given opportunity to ‘create wealth’ and certainly would use his ‘commercial’ skills to make money, but that would be inappropriate in a profession that deals with sickness, pain, misery and death, isn’t it? I am unable to accept that making a profit (commercialization) of another’s misery by anybody can ever be Dharmic!
In this context, if a brahmin doctor volunteered his services in the dakshina system, that would help prevent misuse of knowledge to make money in inappropriate situations. The brahmin initially did an adharmic act by hyperlinking his knowledge to make money and enjoy power. Let him now reverse the original adharmic act by volunteering his knowledge to the benefit of society WITHOUT putting a price tag on such an act! Such a gesture would definitely create respect in society towards brahmins.
This example holds good only in private medicine as practiced now in India. A knowledge based profession with a near 100% information asymmetry left to the mercy of market forces will result only in abuse, at least in India!
Not all professions can be considered the same nor are all professions open for commercialisation. Maybe Senthil can put up a separate post on “misapplication of their respective varna instinct by other communities”!
@raghavan,Senthil
/**The gesture of brahmins with high quality expertise (management, technical etc) volunteering their services to businesses and educational institutions operated by other communities on a dakshina system will effectively serve to delink merit and expertise from remuneration
Suppose the brahmin doctor in our earlier example were to volunteer his services in a private (NOT a corporate) hospital on a dakshina basis, he would delink his medical expertise from his remuneration
**/
Sme cahllenge!! Same lyrics different tune.At the expense of adding naysayer accusation to my list let me add my two cents.
I get the gist.You want to uncouple the society from money and for that you want to start with Brahmins.So if Brahmin rises to your challenge,comes forward to work for free or for dakshina which could be anywhere from 1000rs-5000 rs, even if other communities come forward to provide infrastructure , what will he feed himself,his family members?ideals?Lets assume somehow he will feed and survive,what about clothing,shelter,medication.children education etc? Now he is working for free doesn’t mean there will be education institutions willing to take in his kids for free and then what about kids marraige or do you have ideas for the said brahmins’s grihasta life too apart from dakshina style job?
You guys are brainstorming ,coming with plausible , impractical solutions and if the propositions don’t work then of course Brahmins have not risen to the challenge.Well I’ll tell you a story,long before you threw the challenge, exactly like in your example, I know a Brahmin doctor in Andhra who ,may be out of brahmanism or his personal moraltiy spent his life practicing for needy.All on his own.Lived super modest life while he could have earned a lot.His children didn’t grow up to be doctors but settled in modest fashion.Good thing is AFAIK they never blamed their father for their modest life when actually he could have given them riches.Now that brahmin didn’t inspire forget about other non Brahmins but even other Brahmins.Why? Because they saw his life and who knows may be sometimes had to bail him out too.So what you are saying is highly impractical.Also you are asking them to work for free in laukik jobs meaning education,jobs that rotate around earning basic needs,comforts.As it is there are Brahmins who are doing adhytamik teaching and non teahcing jobs for free in spare time like scriptures,spirituality,jataka,ayur veda etc but are you even aware of such things happening? There are Brahmins who are supporting themselves and in their spare time helping people with sanatan dhrma aspects without charging,Those are the aspects,fields that should be offered for free like our ancestors did.English education,corporate jobs even when done for free is still great disservice and no better than working for money.If working for free is one aspect of dharma which you are are fixated on there is one more simple aspect.Vegetarianism.It is dharmic in many more ways than you can imagine,which Brahmins even many of the brand Brahmins practice.Yet not only did others not become vegetarians,have become more addicted to such foods than their ancestors and have jibed Brahmins as grass eaters for too long now.Ground realities are different from key board strokes.Talk about inspiration!!.
TODO:teaching our people the sanatana dharma aspects, vedic aspects encouraging them to incorporate such values as much as possible, reviving traditional professions for all communities,decreasing dependency on corporates etc.Many require policy changes but some don’t.
Raghavan’s conclusion that // The brahmin deserted his Dharma and set a bad example for the others. He now has a chance to follow a dharmic lifestyle in the manner explained above. Will the brahmin rise to the challenge? //// – is plainly wrong.
The context of history of India in the last 800 years is important to know why Brahmins had to seek material /power etc… You have to remember that India faced the worst genocide at the hands of Muslims and had to constantly engage in war for all the time in one form or the other ( shivaji /sikhs/ vijayanagar etc..). During that period we lost Kshatriyas/ Rajputs, Vashiyas and Brahmins and even to some extent the shudras. That was a complete disorientation and concussion on India.
Upon seeing the the British, the Brahmins saw a chance for re-birth of India and therefore used a thorn to remove a bigger thorn ( Islam).
Re-building a civilisation is not easy – it will take time. – especially when they have to work against the tide – with all the DK idiots shooting in their foot.
Yes, as a Brahmin, I am frustrated that I am not in a position to pursue my dharma. But I am putting use my english skills to benefit mankind in the best possible way.
I am not a Sanskrit/ Tamil scholar, but by my actions I try to be as close as a I can to my Dharma and so are many Brahmins who serve India ( humanity in general).
So the truth is some may have deserted the dharma but some are hybernating till the time is right to practice dharma in it’s true form.
BTW – No one has the credibility to find fault with Brahmins and play victim politics.
We need non-brahmins like Swami Vivekananda and not the likes of the DK scum bags.
For a hundred years after the death of Aurangzeb in 1707 till the Third Anglo-Maratha War in 1817-1818, the Marathas were the dominant political force in India. The British could control the Indian heartland only after the defeat of the Maratha Empire. (Maratha Peshwas were brahmins). Seen in this context, the contention that the brahmins used the british to displace the muslim rulers appears untenable.
The fact that you are “frustrated” in not being able to follow your dharma makes you a ‘hindutva’ brahmin. You may still be able to follow your dharma to the extent possible in these modern times by adhering to some of the concepts detailed above (and in the previous post). Rather than “hibernating” and waiting for the time to become ripe, take the first step today! (I humbly request you not to misunderstand me – I am not proffering gratuitous advice!)
The aim of this discussion is not mere brahmin bashing. Far from it. This is just an attempt to understand how things went so wrong. The past has to be fully understood and mistakes rectified, otherwise, the same errors will be repeated ad-infinitum!
Every person being true to his own svadharma as per his svabhava is in itself the greatest service to mankind. Apart from this there is no separate or special need to ‘serve humanity’. It is as simple as that!
this kind of emotional outburst may not help us.. no generalisations pls.. i had broken down the vague & generic brahmin identity in to more specific, which help me in understanding the issue.. i am not accusing English Educated Brahmins here.. what i said, that the mass enrollment of english educated brahmins was well used by DK scum bags, in a extremely successful way to attack the brahmins as a whole and thus able to destroy the sanctity of all temples in TN..
Raghavan’s conclusion that // The brahmin deserted his Dharma and set a bad example for the others. He now has a chance to follow a dharmic lifestyle in the manner explained above. Will the brahmin rise to the challenge? //// – is plainly wrong. The context of history of India in the last 800 years [...]
/////this kind of emotional outburst may not help us.. no generalisations pls.. i had broken down the vague & generic brahmin identity in to more specific, which help me in understanding the issue.. i am not accusing English Educated Brahmins here.. what i said, that the mass enrollment of english educated brahmins was well used by DK scum bags, in a extremely successful way to attack the brahmins as a whole and thus able to destroy the sanctity of all temples in TN..////////
There was nothing emotional about my reply. I have stated fact that the Islamic genocide of Inda caused the Indian hemorrhage – the civilization almost became extinct. Forces of Vijayanagar, Marathas Sikhs, Peshawas etc were able to only wrest some life of respectability back to the Hindus. They had to fight for survival and had no means for Institution building – so do not blame them.- specificaly Peshawas.
Just because DK scum bags are jealous of Brahmins doing something productive – like learning English and working hard to uplift their economic needs – does not mean we should stop doing productive things. I think it’s time to emphasize the Brahmins should pursue a DUAL strategy- ie. Be a dubashi to meet economic interests and simultaneously try to adapt to dharmic ways of life. “ kairai (rope) pidichuendu kenattril erungara madri” . Eventually when economic self sufficiency has been attained, and convincingly turned around other varnas to adopt their duties – Brahmins can finally go back to their roots.
BTW – The discussions should always be focussed around solution to problems and not to finger pointing. I would love to hear from Raghavan/ Senthil how dharmic they are. It is important to establish credibility in such discussions. As for me I have established quiet a good control of my mind and not succumb to temptations and done a long list of good deeds ( nishkamyakarma)
/** Just because DK scum bags are jealous of Brahmins doing something productive – like learning English and working hard to uplift their economic needs
**/
This is ridiculous.. today, if i join a missionary network, i would get well paid and get my economy uplifted.. will you accept it?
/////This is ridiculous.. today, if i join a missionary network, i would get well paid and get my economy uplifted.. will you accept it?//////
Dude, you have some serious problems with your thinking. — Economic upliftment can be accomplishied in many good and productive ways. — If you are a good human – good thought will come to you.
Senthil, I thnik you are a Carzyyyyyy – I will not spend one more second here. It’s not woth my time.
@venkat,
/** Economic upliftment can be accomplishied in many good and productive ways. — If you are a good human – good thought will come to you. Senthil, I thnik you are a Carzyyyyyy – I will not spend one more second here. It’s not woth my time.
**/
I am sorry if i had hurted you.. and i will retract my comment if you felt that way..
I could understand your point, that brahmins can become dubashi for survival, and then try to adapt to dharmic life style.. but how far is it feasible? Being dubashi and trying to be dharmic will cause a high internal Moral Conflict..
My solution would be.. Instead of dubashis becoming dharmic, they can adapt to dubashi work style, but support the Vaidiha brahmins to follow their dharma in its original.. By this, they can avoid the moral, and ethical conflict they could face internally.
////My solution would be.. Instead of dubashis becoming dharmic, they can adapt to dubashi work style, but support the Vaidiha brahmins to follow their dharma in its original.. By this, they can avoid the moral, and ethical conflict they could face internally.////
This is defnitely a good place to start. I think the next step of the conversation should be -” How do we organize the support to Vaidiha brahmins to ensure revival of dharma.? ” – start a seperate blog on that.question. – Discussing the solution side is more important than other ramblings.
Thank you.. and your suggestion is very good.. i will start another thread soon..
Raghavan, Excellent comment. It is this kind of thinking which is the foundation of recent Novartis judgement.
@Raghavan
/**This whole discussion is based on the fact that once upon a time the then vaideeha brahmins abandoned their Dharma to become dubashi
What holds true for the men also holds true for the women and what is considered adharma for a male is adharma for a female also.
A vaideeha girl wishing to abandon her tradition is free to do it, but then she should be prepared for the consequences that would follow upon “rubbing Dharma the wrong way”. This same logic would apply for any profession she might choose.
**/
And what holds true for one man for violating his respective jathi dharma also holds true for another man for violating his respective jathi dharma.But lets hoodwink that fact as making others look like sinners is much enjoyable game than accepting our mistakes or coming up with practical solutions .Bickering among ourselves which has led to the current crisis,blaming each other has not yet stopped even after losing so much and pity is even if there are few who want to think reasonably there are many more who want to take advantage of the situation for their vested interests be it ego assuaging or financial benefits.It sure is a uphill task ahead!!.
/**
Applying the rules of one model to the other will always result in bewilderment.
**/
How come this esteemed rationality flies out of window when analyzing Brahmins situation who despite being class one victims of this model juxtapose ,survived and are still sticking to their dharma in many aspects if not all aspects ?
/** And what holds true for one man for violating his respective jathi dharma also holds true for another man for violating his respective jathi dharma.But lets hoodwink that fact as making others look like sinners is much enjoyable game than accepting our mistakes or coming up with practical solutions
**/
I have already conveyed.. me and most of my generation came out of farming, bcoz, of the former dubashi brahmins, who decided and implemented the monstruous Industrialisation policy of supposedly free india.. you wont agree that..
Today, all traditional professions were extremely suppressed & oppressed by indian govt, including the temples which were life line of Vaideeha brahmins.. and who constitute this india?
என் 24-12-12 மடலுடன் சேர்த்து படிக்கவும்.
இந்த 350 வருஷங்களின் விஞ்ஞான கண்டு பிடிப்புகளெல்லாம் மேற்கத்திய நாட்டவர்களான ஐரோப்பியர்கள் என்பதை யாரும் மறுக்க முடியாது.ஆக அவர்களைத்தான் ஞான சித்தன் நியமித்துள்ளான்.இவர்கள்எத்துணை
ஆண்டுகாலம்இவ்விஞ்ஞானத்துக்கு பொறுப்பாக்கிறுக்கிறார் என்பது
ஞானசித்தனுக்கு மட்டும் தான் தெரியும்.அதேபோல் பிராம்மணர்களின் பணி கருமசித்தன் காலத்துடன் முடிவடைந்து போயிற்று.அதனால் வர்ணாஸ்ர முறையும் முடிவுக்கு வந்தது.திரு வள்ளளார் அவர்கள் தம் 6ம் திருமுறையில் கலியுகம் கி.பி 1900ல் முடிவடையும் என்று கணித்துள்ளார்.ஸத் குரு ஜிக்கி வாசுதேவ் அவர்களும் இதை உறுதி செய்கிறார்.அதற்குத்தகுந்தாற்போல்
கருமசித்தனின் கருமகாரியங்கள் பெருமளவு குறைந்து ஞானசித்தனின் விஞ்ஞான வளர்ச்சி 18/19ம் நூற்றாண்டிலே தான் அபரிமிதமாக நடந்தது.
எப்போதும் பிராம்மணர்கள் தான் தர்மத்துக்கு காவலன் என்று சொல்வது உகந்தது அல்ல.பிராம்மணரே தர்மத்தைவிட்டு விலகிப்போய்விட்டனர் அதனால் தான் உலகில் அநியாங்கள் தலைவிரித்து ஆடுகின்றது என்றது போன்ற கருத்தை விதைக்கிறது ஸ்ரீனிவாசராகவனின் இக்கட்டுரை.தர்மம் வர்ணாஸ்ரமத்தின் ஏகபோக உரிமையும் அல்ல.சிவன்/கடவுள் தான் தர்மம். திருவள்ளுவர் காலத்தில்
இருந்த பிராம்மணர்களுக்கோ/அதற்குமுன்னம் இருந்தவர்களுக்கோ
அறு தொழில் தான் அவர்களின் பணி.அப்பணி இப்போது தேவையில்லை என்பது காலதேவனின் முடிவு.அதேபோல் ஐரோப்பியர்களின் பணியை முடிவு செய்ய காலதேவனுக்குத்தான் அதிகாரம்.
This article tries to explore how a certain group of brahmins – NOT ALL – disavowed their Dharma. I have also tried to explore whether the adharmic acts of a few brahmins did facilitate in any manner the other communities in deserting their Dharma. I must humbly reject the suggestion that the intention of this article is to posit that only brahmins, to the exclusion of others, are responsible for the sustenance of Dharma, and, all the ills of society be imputed on the brahmins who left their dharma. Dharma is not a one man (one community) show. Every person (to whatever community he may belong) has an equal responsibility to adhere to Dharma, albeit in compliance with his svabhava.
I have also tried to explain how a brahmin can adapt to ‘modern’ circumstances, because as long as society exists, there will be need for the six services provided by a brahmin.
The varnasrama system did help in creation of a self sustainable, settled society in a “secular” manner. Modern Western societies do not appear to be self sustainable and require periodic infusions of capital (looted wealth) and labour (slaves) to function. Science (knowledge) is used by the West only as a means to aggrandize other civilisations. It is indeed truly ‘maya’ to be bedazzled by the present misuse of knowledge by the West and proceed to justify its abuse with convoluted logic. What is not self sufficient cannot be sustained and lacks Dharma – ‘that which sustains’. I would make bold to say that in the context of settled self sustaining societies, the Varnasrama system has exclusive rights on Dharma!
ராமசந்திரசெகரன் அவர்களே,
விஞானம் 1900′இல் தான் வளர்ந்தது என்று சொல்வது சரியல்ல. அதே போல் கடந்த 350 ஆண்டுகளில் ஐரோப்பியர்கள் தான் அத்துணை விஞான கண்டுப்பிடிப்புகளையும் கண்டுப்பிடிதார்கள் என்று சொல்வதும் தவறு. இப்போழுதிருக்கின்ற பல விஞானம் சார்ந்த கண்டுப்பிடிப்புகள் நமது நாட்டுலேயும் ஒரு காலத்தில் இருக்கத்தான் செய்தது. ஆனால் அவை எல்லோரும் உபயோகபடுத்தும் சாதாரண கருவிகளாக இருக்கவில்லை. இன்னும் சொல்லப்போனால் பெருமளவு விஞானம் தொழில்நுட்பமாக மாற்றப்படவே இல்லை. அது ஏன் என்பதற்கு இன்றைய சீர்கேடுகளே சான்று. ஆரியபட்டர் கண்டுபிடித்த பல கணித கண்டுப்பிடிப்புகளை ஐரோப்பியர்கள் இங்கிருந்து திருடிசென்றுள்ளனர். இதற்க்கு பல ஆதாரங்கள் இருக்கின்றன. குறிப்பாக சொல்லப்போனால் சையின் தீடா காஸ் தீடா போன்றவைகள் இந்தியாவில் தான் முதன் முதலில் கண்டுபிடிக்கப்பட்டது. இப்படி பல விஷயங்கள் சொல்லிக்கொண்டே போகலாம். ஆனால் அதற்காக ஐரோப்பியர்களின் விஞாணத்தை நான் குறைத்து மதிப்பிடமாட்டேன். அவர்களின் பல கண்டுப்பிடிப்புகளுக்கு வித்து இங்கிருந்து தான் எடுக்கப்பட்டது.
நான் இந்த மாதிரி கட்டுரை எழுதுவதும் கால தேவனின் முடிவு என்று வைத்துக் கொள்ளுங்களேன்.. நான் சொல்வது நடந்தாலும் அது கால தேவனின் முடிவு என்றே வைத்துக் கொள்ளுங்களேன்..
இன்று நீங்கள் வின்ஞானம் என்று சொல்வது, கார்ப்பரேட் கம்பெனிகள் உலகத்தை சுரண்டி பணம் சேர்க்க, நடத்தப்படுவது.. இது தர்மமுமல்ல.. ஞானமுமல்ல..
@செந்தில்;1)பெண்ணுக்கு திருமண வயது 18 ஆக்கியது முதற்கொண்டு இன்னும் பலப்பல உலக நிகழ்ச்சிகள் காலதேவனின் சுழற்சியில் தான் நடக்கிறது,நீங்கள்
காலமாற்றத்தையும்/வாழ்க்கையையும் கூர்மையாக கவனித்திருப்பீர்-
களெயானால் மனிதன் ஒரு ” puppet in the hands of certain higher agencies.free will is not free.will,will not change the course of divine(கால தேவன்) plan..Egoism/ignorance will make us to say that man can modify the results but we ‘ve only elbow room to operate free will.”
கார்ப்பரெட் கம்பனிகள் சுரண்டல் மட்டுமல்ல/நேற்று வரை இருந்த அரசியல்வாதிகள்/இன்று இன்னும் கொள்ளை அடிக்கும் அரசியல் கட்சிகள் ஆகியன இக்காலகட்டத்தின் “தர்மம்”.அதை நீங்களும்/நானும் மாற்றமுடியாது.
நாம்/நீங்கள் வெகு சிலர் இம்மாதிரி “நன்னெறி/தர்மத்தையும்” பற்றி நம் வாழ்க்கையும் நடத்திக்கொண்டு கவலைப்பட்டுக்கொண்டிருக்கிறோம் அல்லவா அந்த ஒட்டு மொத்த எண்ணலைகளின் பிரதிபலிப்பாகத்தான் சில மானிடர்களை (உ.ம் காந்திஜி) காலதேவன் அவன் நினைக்கும் சமயத்தில் உருவாக்குகிறான்.
2)ஞானசித்தனின் இவ்விஞ்ஞான வளர்ச்சி காலத்தின் Syllabus பௌதீகம்,
ரசாயனம்,கணக்கியல்,மருத்துவம்,விண்வெளி ஆராய்ச்சி,விஞ்ஞான வணிகம்,கணினிஅறிவியல்/எல்லாப்பொறியியல்கள் மற்றும் பல.இக்காலத்தின் ஆரம்பத்தில் கலைகள்,மொழிகள்,இலக்கியங்கள்,வரலாறு என்றிருந்தது.
ஆனால் இப்போது மக்கள் அதிகம் இதில் நாட்டம் இடுவதில்லை.அதேபோல் கரும சித்தன் காலத்தின் Syllabus வர்ணாஸ்ரமுறை மூலமாக இலக்கியங்கள்,
இதிஹாஸங்கள்,புராணங்கள்,வேதங்கள்,ஆகமவிதிகள்,கோவில்நிர்மாணக்
கலை,தத்துவங்கள்,ஆயுர்வேதம்/சித்தமருத்துவம்,ஆயகலைகள்,கல்செதுக்குதல்/வெட்டுதல்கலைகள்,மொழிவளர்ப்பு,சங்கீதமுறைக்கலைகள்,தெருக்கூத்து,
ஆகியன.அது அறவேமுடிவுக்குவந்தது.அவ்வர்ணாஸ்ர முறையில் பிராம்மணர்களுக்குத்தான் கடுமையான விதிகள் அளிக்கப்பட்டது.வேதங்களின் முதல் 2 பகுதிகளான கர்மகாண்டம்,ஆரண்யகாண்டம்(உபாசனம்) தான் கருமசித்தன் காலத்தின் பின்பகுதியில் பிராம்மணர்கள் பிழைப்பிற்காக அதிகஅளவில் ஈடுபட்டு “தக்ஷிண”முறை அமுலாக்கப்பட்டது.மேற்கூறிய 2 பகுதிகளும் மற்றும் வர்ணாஸ்ர முறையும் இன்று அடியோடு மறைந்தது.
பிராம்மணர்களின் பணி முடிவுக்கு வந்து விட்டது.அதனால் தான்
கலியுகம் முடியும் (கி.பி.1900) தருவாயில் திரு வள்ளலார் அவர்கள் புராணங்கள்/இதிகாசங்கள்/ வேதங்களின் முதல் 2 பகுதிகளான கர்மகாண்டம்,ஆரண்யகாண்டம்(உபாசனம்) (முக்கியமாக கர்ம காண்டம்)
ஆகியவை பொய்யுலகப்பிராச்சாரம் என்று ஒதுக்கச்சொல்லி உள்ளார்கள்.
ஆனால் ஆகம சாஸ்த்திர முறைப்படி கட்டப்பட்ட ஆலயங்களை புறக்கணிக்கக்கூடாது என்றும் செப்பி உள்ளார்.பிராம்மணர்கள் இன்று பல்வேறு தொழில் செய்து நிறைய சம்பளங்களைப்(“தக்ஷிணா)ப்பெற்றுக்கொண்டு “அவர்களின்” தர்மத்துக்கு விரோதமாக வாழ்க்கை நடத்துகிறார்கள் என்று ஸ்ரீநிவாசராகவன் எழுதுவது அவர் எதையும் சரியாகப்புரிந்து கொள்ளாமல் எழுதிஉள்ளார் என்றே காட்டுகிறது.அவர் நினைப்பது/எழுதுவது
பிராம்மணன் எக்காலத்திலும் கருமசித்தன் காலமுறையிலே வாழ வேண்டும்.மற்றும் பிராம்மணன் தான் தர்மத்தின் காவலாளி என்று சிந்திப்பது சரி அல்ல.வேறு விதத்தில் சொல்ல வேண்டுமானல் எவனெவன்
“ஸ்ரீனிவாசராகவன் சொல்கின்ற தர்மத்தை” காக்கிறானோ அவன்
தான் பிராம்மணன் என்ற ஏற்கமுடியாத புதிய விளக்கத்தை அளித்துள்ளார்.
வேதங்களின் உபநிஷத்துக்களில் சொல்லப்பட்டுள்ள பிராஹ்மண்/பிரம்மஹண்/பிராம்மணா ஆகியவற்றில் குழம்பிப்போயுள்ளார் என்றே இது காட்டுகிறது.
ஞானகாண்டம்(உபநிஷத்துக்கள்)மட்டும் எக்காலத்திற்கும் பொருந்தும் என்று சிலர் கூறுகிறார்கள்.ஆனால் நடைமுறையில் இல்லை எனவே சொல்ல வேண்டும்?
NOBODY HAS THE BLOODY RIGHT TO DISCUSS ABOUT ME OR MINE -MY BELIEFS, AND TACIT HATE MONGERING ON MY DHARMA – RELIGION REFER TO RULES AND TERMS OF SERVICE WORDPRESS.COM
I wish to disagree with some aspects of this article
In the 1911 census, for male literacy in Madras Presidency
Brahmins = 75% literate in Tamil, 18% literate in English
Chettiar = 37% literate in Tamil. 3% literate in English
Velala, Nadar, Vanniar = 25% literate in Tamil. 2% literate in English
The interesting fact is that Vanniars and Nadars, both MBC castes had the same literacy as Velala. a forward caste
In the 1911 census for male literacy in Mumbai presidency
Brahmins = 60% literate in regional language, 15% literate in English
Lingayat = 15% literate in regional language, 1% literate in English
All other castes were 5% literate in regional language and 0.1% literate in English
At this time in rest of India in british direct rule, male literacy was about 5% in regional language and 0.1% in english
So by 1911. brahmin male literacy in both Mumbai and Madras in regional language was 4 times the male literacy in English, and no sign of abandoning regional language
Lets do a simple algebra calculation for Madras Presidency, 1911 census
3% brahmins x 18% english literacy = 54
97% non-brahmin x 1% english literacy = 97
Total = 97 + 54 = 151
Brahmin % = 54 / 151 = 34%
In any senior job under british needed to be english literate and the expected brahmin % is 34%
Next. if we say that the educational requirement for judge etc under british rule was a college degree, BA in english medium. then the brahmin fraction was around 75% and this would be directly reflected into 75% judges being brahmin
Next, tamil brahmins, have won 3 out of the 4 Indian science Nobels. The math whiz Ramanujam and Chess world champion, Vishwanathan Anand, and very strongly represented in Indian nuclear program, and in any open competition world wide shine, and again this reflects in Judge posts
Next, the Indian independence movement was brahmin led in Madras Presidency and while there were several non-brahmin leaders like Kamaraj and C.Subramaniam
The Dravidianist movement was british inspired, And Periyar asked the british to stay back and in 1947, Karunanidhi openly sloganned for Jinnah and Pakistan.
the british ICS exam was merti based, and brahmins could not be matched by other aspirants.. just english literacy alone is not a benchmark for government post..
also, the 18% of english literate brahmins should be translated in to actual numbers.. considering that the population of tamilnadu was 20 lakh during 1900, the 5% brahmins constitute around 1,00,000 and 18% of this 1 lakh brahmins comes around 18,000 brahmins, highly literate in english.. and out of this, around 100 or some managed to get to government posts.. and this small number of dubashi brahmins, became the root cause of anti-brahmin movement..
This brahmin non-brahmin discrepancy existed all over South Indua, and while reservations eventually came, the anti-brahmin, anti-hindu, anti-sanskrit, anti-north Indian, pro-british, pro-muslim, pro-xtian , rhetoric and dravidian ideology was solely limited to Tamil Nadu.
The Reddy and Kamma do very well in open competition, because they decided to focus on education than the cheap and easy targeting of brahmins
In coastal Karnataka, the brahmins are well integrated with the Bunt-Shetty and backward caste Fishermen and never targeted
I also want to add this
The dravidian movement targeted Vaidik brahmins
Sacred threads were cut, kudumi was cut, Ganesh idol destroyed, Ram temples attacked
Vegetarianism mocked. Beef eating encouraged, Brahmin priests lost monopoly on temple jobs
Whereas the dravidian movement loves dubashi brahmins. Naxal Ram, a beef eater has married his daughter into Karunanidhi family
Lots of dravidian leaders – Chidambaram, Azhagiri etc. ,marry their sons to daughters of dubashi brahmins. No vedic brahmin will marry his daughter to them
I have some data from the California National Merit List for 2012
This selects the top 1% of 12th grade students, based on PSAT and 2000 students are selected
By doing a name analysis
Jews = 125
South Indian Brahmins = 89
North Indian Brahmins = 19
North Indian Upper Caste Non-Brahmins = 40
Nair = 4
Syrian Xtian = 1
Telegu Dravidians = 17
Kannadiga Dravidian = 1
Tamil Dravidian = 6
Patel = 3
SIkh = 4
This sort of replicates the ICS examination results
The interesting data point is that in North India, there is no gap between brahmin and non-brahmin upper castes, and no scope for anti-brahmin movement led by upper castes
@shan,
Thanks for the statistics.. good insight.. as you said, only in tamilnadu, the anti-brahminism clicked.. the reason is that tamilnadu is under direct british control, whereas, karnataka was under mysore kingodm, kerala under travancore, andra under nizam.. Madras presidency, and bengal presidency were the worst affected by famines created by direct british..
Karnataka offers an interesting contrast
Reservations there are 73%, above the 69% in TN
The brahmins there are happy with it. The 73% has a 5% sub-quota for poor of all castes and a 10% quota for women of all castes, which brahmins tend to corner most
In karnataka, a brahmin can be politically prominent, whereas not possible in TN, JJ came under MGR help
Most of the non-brahmin colleges tend to hire lots of brahmin teachers and professors
The Mysore Wodeyars were prominent in VHP, no TN politician gets close to BJP
This is what really happened
The patrons of the brahmins were the local rajahs, such as Thevar, Maravar, castes, who became classified as criminal tribes by the british. The brahmins lost patronage. The british looted temples and temple land, which cut brahmin income, The british shut down the native educational system, which again impoverished brahmins. This forced the brahmins into white collar jobs.
Even in 1911, Brahmins who went to UK for college were boycotted by the vedic brahmins on return and often had to move to new towns where they were not known.
It is interesting to note that the leaders of the dravidian movement
Periyar – Kannadiga
Karunanidhi , Vaiko – Telegu
MGR – Malayali Menon, who had brahmin blood, due to Nambudhiri brahmins having sex with Nair women for centuries
Whereas the Thevars were not so keen on it, because they were turned off by the atheism of the movement. The dravidian movement in TN was primarily a Mudaliar / Velala movement and did not include MBC segment Thevars, Vanniars and did not include Dalits
I dont recall Muthuramalinga Thevar ever ranting against Hindu gods
Even more tragic, the tamils have disowned 1000 years of tamil history from 300 AD to 1300 AD. CNA mocked Kamba Ramayanam as Kamba rasam
Sangam Tamil was a heavily buddhist and Jain society. The bhakti period of Tamil history has been wiped out and the revival of Hinduism has been deliberately underplayed
The false propoganda of dravidianism is that the Aryan brahmins toppled the tamil kingdoms
The truth is, in Jaffna, the Portuguese hanged the last Tamil king, also named Senthil and in TN, Malik Kafur toppled the Pandya kings
There is a sanksrit poem ‘ Madura Vijayam’ written by Ganga Devi, the wife of Kempanna, the Vijayanagar prince who liberated TN from muslim rule
Finally thanks to DNA, the falsity of the Dravidian movement can be exposed
Most male Tamil Dravidians ( 40% ) have the L1 marker, which is not exactly a south Indian marker, but rather a coastal mariner marker. L1 extends all along the coast to Syria.
L1 was and is present in Gujurat / Indus Valley, along with other markers
Interestingly, South Indian brahmins – Maharashtra, Goa and 4 southern states also have L1 about 17% , whereas North Indian brahmins have just 5% L1.
Most Backward caste North Indians dont have L1, they carry H1 marker ( 40% )
and are not related to Dravidian south Indians. Whereas the standard Aryan Invasion theory claims that Dravidians were driven to South India and enslaved in North India
Even more, the Aryan marker is R1A, common to brahmins, ( 40% ), upper caste North Indians and Russians ( 40% ). The earliest form of R1A is with the Chenchu, a dravidian tribe of Andhra about 15000 years ago
Good points.. but the core discussion here is “Was English Educated, BRahmins in GOvernment Jobs the root cause for Dravidian Movement?”
In most states of the USA, roughly the following pattern shows up in National Merit list for Indian winners
South Indian brahmin = 35%
North Indian brahmin = 10%
Upper caste non-brahmin North Indian = 25%
Telegu Dravidian = 10%
Tamil Dravidian = 5%
Nair = 5%
Patel / Sikh = 5%
Indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi muslim = 5%
These kids are all well fed, from upper middle class families, and in state after state, the similar pattern holds. One could argue that these mirror the caste breakdown in high level posts under british rule, 100 years ago. and the disproportionate South Indian brahmin numbers in both scenarios.
As far as casteism in 1911, brahmins were no more and no less casteist than other dravidian castes and never had the muscle to do any atrocity
Jealousy is a very ugly emotion, and the british fanned the flames
In 1911, the brahmins were still middle class, they were not landlords and not rich like Chettiars
I also question the role of the Velala Adheenams.
They are generally absent in the anti-conversion movement of VHP
In Hinduism, next to Sanskrit, Tamil is the second sacred language, and Tamil has the most number of Hindu religious texts next to Sanskrit
In Islam, Arabic is main , but Persian is the second most important religious language
In Hinduism, Sanskrit is main, but Tamil is the second most important religious language
The Velala Adheenams were formed during the bhakti movement, in mutual alliance with vedic brahmins to revive Hinduism. The Adheenams kept quiet when Periyar slippered Hindu gods, broke Hindu idols, encouraged beef eating. Being Tamil scholars, the adheenams were well aware of the ancient and mutual relationship between Sanskrit and Tamil
The dravidian movement trashed the tamil bhakti texts, which the Adheenams are supposed to preserve and propogate. They have no use for the Shaivite and Vaishnavite Tamil saints and indulge in de-sankritising tamil
I have not seen one Adheenam criticise the anti-Hindu excesses of the dravidian movement
senthil … Interesting one… Was English Educated, BRahmins in GOvernment Jobs the root cause for Dravidian Movement?” YES…..
Brahmins were the first to come out of the villages due to the loss of patronage.
root cause of dravidian movement — people could not tolerate this particular aspect
I) brahmins who were dependent on them became the masters overnight… this aspect became a sort of hatred…
2) the biggest growth in dravidian movement , I would say happened in the cauvery delta region which had the highest concentration of brahmins,. even now the this region has good supporters for dravidian movemtn..
I am going to show a parallel in rise of anti-jewish sentiment among the germans
Given German IQ = 100
Jewish IQ = 115
standard deviation = 15
If the cut off to enter a certain profession / college etc was set as a IQ barrier
IQ barrier = 115
3 % Jews x 50 % pass = 150
97% Germans x 15% pass = 1450
Jewish fraction = 150 / 1600 = 9.5%
IQ barrier = 130
3% Jews x 15% pass rate = 45
97% Germans x 2% pass rate = 194
Jewish Fraction = 45 / 239 = 19%
IQ barrier = 145 ( IIT level )
3% Jews x 2% pass rate = 6
97% germans x 0.1% pass rate = 9.7
Jewish fraction = 6 / 16 = 38%
IQ barrier = 160 ( Nobel level )
3% jews x 0.1% pass rate = 0.3
97% german x 0.003 = 0.3
Jewish Fraction = 50%
As the passing bar is made harder, due to the nature of the bell curve, the jewish fraction kept rising naturally
The ICS exam for judges etc was like an IIT exam equivalent, and had thousands applying for a few slots. Add to this the 10X brahmin advantage in English literacy
Indian nuclear test team for 1974 test
Bhabha Atomic Research Center (BARC) Team
BARC Team Lead: Raja Ramanna, Director of BARC – Kannada Brahmin
Team Second-in-Command: P.K. Iyengar (responsible for the actual manufacture of the device) – Tamil Brahmin
Nuclear System Design Team
Team lead: Rajagopala Chidambaram – Tamil Brahmin
Satinder Kumar Sikka – Punjabi Khatri Merchant
Electronic Detonation System Team
Team lead: Pranab Rebatiranjan Dastidar – Bengali Brahmin
Sekharipuram Narayana Aiyer Seshadri – Tamil Brahmin
Neutron Initiator Team
Vasudev K. Iya – Iyengar Tamil Brahmin
T.S. Murthy – Tamil Brahmin
C.V. Sundaram – Tamil Brahmin
Plutonium Core Fabrication Team
Team lead: P.R. Roy – Bengali Brahmin
System Integration Team
Team lead: Jitendra Nath Soni – Punjabi khatri merchant
Anil Kakodkar – Maharashtrian brahmin
High Explosive Implosion System Team
Team lead: Nagapattinam Sambasiva Venkatesan, Director of Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory (TBRL) – Tamil Brahmin
Muthuswamy Balakrishnan – Tamil Brahmin
Detonator Development Team
Team lead: Waman Dattatreya Patwardhan at the Explosive Research and Development laboratory (ERDL) – Maharashtrian Brahmin
S.N. Joshi – Maharashtrian Brahmin
Total Individuals = 16
Madras Presidency Brahmins = 9
Same sort of dominance in nuclear blast team in 1974 as in Judge posts in 1911
Why was there no Dravidian protest against this ?
Another fact is most of the dravidian leaders keep a brahmin accountant, lawyer and doctor for private use
It is not that easy to come up with this design on their own, without modern facilities
And this would not have been possible without learning english and modern western education
Pakistan and North Korea got a chinese design
China got a Russian design
Russia stole a US-UK design
Israel got a French design
Iran, Iraq etc couldnt come up with this yet, despite oil wealth
There is no problem with Brahmins acquiring any kind of knowledge, religious and or secular (sciences). The problem arises when Brahmins use this knowledge (both religious and secular) to usurp the purusharthas of the other communities. As long as this knowledge is not used to dominate other communities the Brahmins will be called by the honorific title “swamy” by the other communities. Even the King is not addressed by the term “swamy”.
Excellent compilation of data.. thanks for sharing.. so this gives an overview of brahmin’s presence in beurocracy too.
Senthil – You are reacting to Shan’s comment as if you never knew about this before. It’s a known fact that In the past the Brahmins dominated in every govt sector where highly qualified English educated personnel were required. Out of the available small number of English educated Indian elites in those days, the Brahmin representation was pretty high, which is why they could be found in almost every govt sector in those days. It’s not that the govt preferred to have Brahmins alone for those jobs, rather out of the available few fit people at that time, the Brahmins outperformed everyone else. One other important reason was that the Brahmins unlike the other higher caste Hindus didn’t have their family business to run, which is why they always resorted to Govt jobs predominantly. How can you blame the Brahmins for this? Even the other caste Hindus would have done the same thing if they had been in the position of Brahmins back in those days. Are they not doing the same right now? Let’s stop this non-sense of blaming the Brahmins alone for all bad things that happened. If not for the DK, the Brahmins wouldn’t have got so much hype and attention. The DK’s false propaganda against the Brahmins helped significantly to hide the atrocities done by higher caste non-Brahmin Hindus. While the Brahmins certainly hold responsibility for leaving their dharma, they alone cannot be made responsible for the same. The role played by other upper caste Hindus is significant and needs to be thoroughly examined.
@vyas,
We did not get such statistics earlier. that’s why i appreciated him..
reg your other things, we discussed this in detail so far.. we are only doing causal analysis.. the root cause of dravidian movement..
Senthil, this is not bureucracy, for that you can hire anyone. even a bihari
India / Hindus would not have a nuclear deterrent without the Madras Presidency Brahmin
Another data point for you to ponder over. The US Ballistic missile defence team was led by Dr,Shiva Subrahmanya, another Madras Presidency brahmin. Here he was protecting US from nuclear attack, If he had not migrated away due to hostile locals, He could have given a nuclear shield to India instead of US
And stupid Indira Gandhi was ready to share this hardwork to Pakistan!
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wikileaks-cables-indira-gandhi-offered-…/1100283/
Mr.Shan is providing very interesting data’s and thanks for the same. In TN every boady says that because of Brahmin dominance in Govt services the dravidian movement was started here. Same stick is also applicable in Sri Lanka where because of cast Hindus dominance in Govt services (mainly vellala, pillai cast ) the enimity of shinghala tamilians started. Do you agree Mr.Senthil ?
Yes.. i completely agree.. because eelam tamils sided with british (in my term become dubashi tamils), and wielded disproportionate influence in srilankan beurocracy, the SL issue started..
In Tamil Nadu, the congress was overwhelmingly brahmin led – Rajaji, Sathyamurthy etc
The dravidian Justice Party was british funded and their members got titles like Raja, and Right Honorable. In Tamin Nadu, not only was the top bureacracy heavily brahmin, the freedom fighters were also heavily brahmin and Periyar asked the british not to go and Karunanidhi raised slogans for Pakistan. In Sri Lanka, there was no freedom movement, they got independence on a platter
/Another data point for you to ponder over. The US Ballistic missile defence team was led by Dr,Shiva Subrahmanya, another Madras Presidency brahmin. Here he was protecting US from nuclear attack, If he had not migrated away due to hostile locals, He could have given a nuclear shield to India instead of US//
Shan – What are you trying to convey from the above message. Shiva Subrahmanya may be a person of Indian origin but he must be a U.S Citizen now, and he’ll obviously work for the benefit of the United States. There are several people like him who hail from several other countries but work for United States having become citizens of the same. In my opinion severe brain drain started to happen in India only after introduction of reservation system. What do you expect the Brahmins to do when they are deprived of education in their own land? This is when migration of Brahmins started. Some migrated to other parts of the country and some, to other countries.
Another data point for Senthil
1951, Dorairajan case,
The court is told that if the Communal GO had not existed and selection to the roughly 400 seats in government engineering colleges were made solely on “merit”, i e, in terms of a ranking based on the marks obtained in the qualifying examination, then brahmins would have obtained 249 ( 62% of seats ) seats instead of the 77 they were allotted under their communal quota.
@ Raghavan Srinivasan Garu,
There would be no issue with a Brahmin doing a pro-bono type of service, just like the medical practitioners of the pre-British period, but times have changed. A reasearch facility funded by Kshatra money & Vysya donation could be a better place for a brahmin to work on research in medicine without any regard to the marketability of the research.
In spite of what you claim, the medical services today are much closer to carpentry or selling vegetables. Those that have common sense can figure out if the Vysya hospital is messing with them or not.
If not, the rest of the population will know pretty soon if the they need to trust a particular hospital or not.
Either way, things will revert to the way of the Universe pretty soon. Those that were dumb enough not to have common sense will be removed from the population and those that were smart enough will survive.
your comments are unrelated to the discussion going on here..
Almost every comment of his is unrelated. Go ahead and remove them all if possible.
which comments are you referring to?