Marriage Age decision – Khaps assaulted by Media Lynch Mobs

In a recent meeting of khap panchayat in haryana, a declaration was passed that marriage age should be lowered to 16 to prevent straying of young girls and boys.  This was later endorsed by the haryana chief minister endorsed it, and said that such early marriages will prevent rape and other sexual crimes.

As usual, all the Secularists and liberals had been shouting to the sky.  The Media Lynch mobs, on their part started their intellectual Terrorist Assault on the entire Khap panchayats.  In their usual tactics, they had manipulated and distorted the entire issue in a deliberate manner.

Let me quote some of the media reports on this issue..

Lets take this totally negative coverage in Speak Out India by NewsX ( we have to rename it as, “Shut Up India” ) .   I do not know hindi, and hence i could not understand what the khap leader said (Can some one give me a short transcript in the comment section?).

  • The stance of khap is that today boys and girls attain puberty before 14 years and hence there should be means to fulfill the sexual desire that naturally arises after they bilogically mature.  Marrying them early is a right and legitimate solution for that.   This is perfectly valid, rationale suggestion, and this is the custom followed by our traditional society for years.   Many of the freedom fighters are married at very young age.  Gandhi at 13, and ambedkar married a 9 year old girl when he was 17.  So What is bizarre in this, as the NewsX TV anchor were projecting it in the above video?   Are they saying that the teenage boys and girls dont have any sexual desires till 18 years?    
  • The decision taken in khap panchayat is NOT a diktat.  Its a collective decision, taken after discussing with various representatives. But the media lynchmobs unleash their terrorism by branding them as talibanic, fatwa or diktat.
  • The whole issue is manipulated by shifting the focus to Rape.   These social activists like Ranjana Kumari are saying that early marriages do not prevent rape.  This is idiotic.  Even their so called strict laws and macaulay education system does not prevent rape.  Can we abolish all those laws and close down the schools?  The issue is about suppression of the normal flow of sexual desires in teenage boys and girls, by preventing them getting married.  All other issues, like rape, teenage pregnancy, sexual perversion, failure of families, moral straying etc arise only out of this.
  • PN Roy, another participant, has abused the khaps, as idiotic and Non-Sense.  It shows the abusive mentality of so called educated classes.  They are ready to have fair discussion on homosexuality, gay etc, but they are not ready to debate anything related to khap.  and yet they call themselves as broad minded, and liberal.  Bloody rascals.

Let us also see some other media reports..

  • This article by Hindustan’s Times is an atrocity. They have dragged all non-sense issues, and even dalit oppression.
  • This Hindu Article deliberately brands it as Child marriage, whereas what khaps asked is to reduce marriage age to 14 and 16.  Deliberate manipulation.  As per their own Indian law, any one attaining age of 14 is NOT a child.
  • This daily pioneer article puts forward some ridiculous statistics, and then condemns khap.

And then latest, the UN has also peeked (or made to peek, by the Desi Ettappans) its nose in to this issue.  This underlines the hidden fact on the extent of network, these Lynch Mobs leverage , oppressing any alternate voices in support of our traditional society.

Marriage Age:

In most countries, although the marriageable age is set to 18, the boys and girls can marry at 16, with parental consent.  Pls refer this wikipedia article on the comprehensive list of marriage age by countries.  Only in india, the draconian oppressive laws is deliberate set to 21 and 18. and any marriage conducted below 18 is automatically null and void.  This is  Ridiculous.  The Indian population is virtually taken for granted by these Urban educated Lynch Mobs under the guise of various deceiving banners like Social Activists, Liberals, Human Rights etc..

And more laughable is the high court declaration allowing the muslim women in india to be married by 15 years.  Whereas for hindu women this is not applicable.

The demand of Khap panchayats to reduce marriage age to 16 is Nothing bizarre or Nothing new. These are already existing in many countries.

Illegitimate Constitution vs Legitimate Khap Panchayats:

Every social activists in the TV Media often invoke the constitution argument that no one is above law of land.   But my question is who gave the mandate to write that constitution?

Is this constitution Ratified?  Is this constitution put to public voting?

When india got independance, 92% of india were rural, and were functioning based on the traditional administrative structures, and localised laws.   But the people who wrote the constitution were english educated, westernised who never consulted these traditional society at any point of time?  Nor the constitution was put to public voting to get people’s approval.

Infact, there was fierce opposition within the Constituent Assembly, against the final draft of constitution.  But Nehru and his cohorts thrusted it upon the opposing members, and finally got it implemented, without any voting or ratification.

On the other hand, lets take the structure of khap panchayats.  First it has thousands of year of historicaly continuation.  They are the original inhabitants of the lands, whereas the Metro Educated westernised society are the Economic Refugees, displaced by British Colonialism.  What bloody rights they have to dictate to the khap panchayats?

Retired Judges like Markandeya Katju should remember that he had hold chief post of one of the most shameful and oppressive judiciary system, and he doesnt get any moral right because of that.  So he should stop issuing his weird comments on our social system.

The Oppression of Traditional Society by Westernised Metro India:

Every parent always wants certain level of rights to educate their children and mould them with the value system they feel is right.  Similarly, every society always has its own tradition, and moulds its children in to its cultural , and economic system and that is how, the society ensures its continuity to successive generations.

The custom of our Traditional Society is to marry boys and girls, at young age, so that they are moulded in to family tradition and family values right at young age.  Most importantly, the occupation of every jathi of traditional india requires physical labour, for which these married yongsters are tuned to it. And thus the culture and the economic system that sustains it, continues to next generation.

Whereas, when a boy or girl pursues a college education, he is moulded towards luxurious or comfortable living, and trained in urban consumerism.  Such a boy or girl never wants to return to the traditional society.  This causes internal disturbances within the traditional society, and the harmony is destroyed.  The objectives of christian bible are stealthily achieved here..  the bible says that jesus will create divisions within society, and pit son against father,husband against wife, and create turmoil..

This is naked invasion of our community.  Imagine, if an education system trains your own son or daughter to hate you, will you ever send him?  That’s why khaps and other traditional communities resist this alien education system.  but the colonial Metro India forcibly pushes it.

If providing Education is the main objective, the school system could have been designed in different ways to suit to different sections of people.  The boys and girls can attend schools even after marriage, and no one is going to oppose this.  The khaps are never going to oppose, if their traditional value system is respected and recognized.

And in today’s scenario, there are so many options available to get education.

  • The Open Schooling system, by NIOS of Central Government.
  • The Private Exam mode offered by State Education Departments, where students can take exams on their own without going to school.
  •  A large number of Correspondance Degree Courses offered by different Universities .

So marrying early will never going to be a obstacle for any interested boys and girls, who might want to pursue higher education.   The Khap Panchayats should actively consider these alternative ways for collective Home Schooling for their children, instead of sending them to commericial schools that spoil them. 

The objective of the Vested Anti-Social and Anti-national interests, is NOT education, but destruction of traditional Society.   The Economic Slaves of Urban Metro India, who still lives and thrives by serving foreign companies, will never be able to understand this.  Because they are Uprooted people, who cannot even visualise the traditional social fabric.  What they know is the propoganda theory which they read from Mainstream newspapers, based on which they form their opinions and views, and vomit that in the Media Interviews and Other forums.  They should realise their utter stupidity and idocracy.

So we need to see the whole issue as a struggle of Khap Panchayats which represents traditional society, against the oppression of Alien Constitution and the institutions (judiciary, Police, etc) based on it.

The traditional panchayats was destroyed in entire south india.  But the khaps are too strong to be destroyed.  Nevertheless, the constitution of metro india is still in continous conflict with khaps, and thus weakening and corrupting it.

The Hindu Activists and Intellectuals, who really want to revive dharma, should stop echoing the western universalistic views of the media.  They need to understand our society and listen to what the traditional society says with open mind, even if it is against their current beliefs..  they need to understand that their current belief system itself is moulded by macaulyte education system, which needs to be Unlearnt.

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91 Responses to Marriage Age decision – Khaps assaulted by Media Lynch Mobs

  1. Bageerath parthiv says:

    I am partly a Veterinary man. In Cows, as soon as they come to heat in 15 months they were artificially inseminated in the modern dairies. But in villages, considering the cows health i.e. size and the strength they were actually protected from bull’s service. The villagers know when to allow the bull to serve the cow. Villagers live with nature and they know what to do and when to do. They are wiser than the modern dairy veterinary doctors.

    In the case of marriage the heritage of most of the Indians is to marry a girl as soon as she attains the puberty in three months. Even in the priestly class it shall be observed. The parents of bridegroom know when to let the girl and when not to. All the rishi dharma tell about “Garbhadhaanam”, a holy day for creating a fertilized embryo for the couples. The husband and his parents were not beasts and they were only human beings, unlike assumed and projected hiddenly by media and the feminine reformers. Infact, keeping the girl upto 21 or so is the cruel punishment given to the girls against their nature.

    These neo-british reformers were worried that their forefather’s (british colonials) work would go waste and the purpose and the target (!!!??) would not be solved if this adolescence and right kind of marriage come to exist. People will through away the government if they intrude in to their family and the heritage too much. This is a severe warning for the non-sense, cunning chickens of colonial reformers, who are running this country.

    Please don’t intrude in my privacy (family heritage and customs).

    • KUMAR IYER says:

      Kudos Parthiv. Bang on target(!!!!!)

    • senthil says:

      @bageerath parthiv,

      Excellent reply .. i fully agree with you.. as you said, it is cruel punishment to be given to girls and boys against nature.. The cruelty is multiplied, when the government allows all kind of obscene bollywood movies, and “A” certified films for public display..

  2. KP says:

    You’re talking as if no married women are raped in India. Yes, most of the victims are dalit girls and no need to tell which caste people raped them. And, don’t tell me rape was introduced to India by British and it’s a westernized culture. It’s really disgusting to see people like you’re advocating child marriages.

    Age 16 or 14 will get reduced to 7 or 9. And,the girl will get married at the age of 7 to a boy whose age is 15. If the boy dies at the age of 16, the 8 year old poor girl is a widow for the rest of her life. And, India is back to square 1. Rewind 500-1000 years. Plain bullcrap.

    Let me see how you defend the women, it’s actually the girls, being widow for rest of their lives even if her husband dies at the age of 10 or 11.

    Anyone who rapes a woman should be cut “his reproductive organ” in the public.

    • Mpr says:

      Who is best to decide when their kids are getting married? Parents or the govt?

    • KUMAR IYER says:

      You have to grow up to talk and debate sanely on this issue KP

      • mpr says:

        @rebel,

        No. Girls and boys are part of a family & utlimately society, not stand alone individuals. Hence its upto the parents to decide based on what is good for their kids, their culture and the society as a whole.

    • senthil says:

      You have resorted to the same gimmick, that the media lynch mobs employ to divert the focus..

      The request by khaps is to reduce marriage age to 16 for boys and 14 for girls.. this cannot be called child marriage, as even as per the child labour law, 14 years is the upper limit for a child.. You dont have any rights to intrude in to the life style of the traditional society..

      /**Age 16 or 14 will get reduced to 7 or 9. And,the girl will get married at the age of 7 to a boy whose age is 15. **/

      Speculation cannot be answered.. Even if it is reduced to 7 or 9, it is the community to decide and NOT for the government.. you need not go back 500 years… just rewind 100 years back, and you will find 17 year old ambedkar marrying 9 year old girl, and gandhi married at 13 year old.. why dont you call them as craps and throw dirt against them?

      /** If the boy dies at the age of 16, the 8 year old poor girl is a widow for the rest of her life **/
      Another bullshit.. Even if the girl is married at 18, and the boys dies after marriage, still be she will be widow for the rest of her life..

      /** Anyone who rapes a woman should be cut “his reproductive organ” in the public. **/
      Yes.. and the law says that any one who induces rape should be punished more severely..

      So tell me how can we punish people like you, who forcibly prevent boys and girls to fulfill their sexual desires, till 18 years, and make them pervert and go stray? can we apply the same punishment to you??

      • KP says:

        /*Another bullshit.. Even if the girl is married at 18, and the boys dies after marriage, still be she will be widow for the rest of her life */

        Do you mind saying why the girl has to be a widow for rest of her life? She should forgo all the wishes against nature. Are you aware that it’s natural for a 18 year old girl to have sexual feelings even after her husband’s death? Isn’t it against nature not letting 18 year old girl to remarry? If it’s nature to have sexual feelings at the age of 16 why not at the age of 18 after her husband’s death.

        We should thank western culture for teaching us the value of the widow remarriage.

      • senthil says:

        @KP,

        /** Are you aware that it’s natural for a 18 year old girl to have sexual feelings even after her husband’s death?
        **/

        That is what i am asking you.. are you aware, that a girl or boy, starts feeling the sexual desires soon they attain puberty? Are you not preventing them from fulfilling, by forcefully preventing their marriage till 18 years?

      • KP says:

        @Senthil:
        I’m all for it. I don’t oppose sex @16. But I oppose marriage @16. There’s a sea of difference between two.

        Why did you evade answering my question regarding widow remarriage? Is it against your stone age barbaric mentality?

        • Sevvel says:

          Bull shit! dont you feel ashamed to say, sex @16 is right but marriage @16 is wrong..?? sounds so idiotic and prostitustic..

      • poovannan says:

        can u please take a look at the age of rapists.how many of the rapists are in this age group
        do you have any statistics to prove that rape is mainly committed by unmarried sexually deprived men.this is stupidity.
        age of marriage and instances of rape have no connection in any part of the world nor during any period in human history
        rape is less in northeastern states where there is no restriction in movement between men and women .people from other parts of the country who visit ,stay there are mostly the culprits like the pakistanis in england who consider white women as easy meat
        its the khap or taliban enforced mind which makes one see the women as a sexual object and any women without a guardian is considered as immoral by them due to their traditional beleif .the fault lies in this traditional beleif of seeing women

      • senthil says:

        /** I don’t oppose sex @16. But I oppose marriage @16. **/

        Which means, you are promoting pre-marital sex, and immorality in the society

    • senthil says:

      /** Yes, most of the victims are dalit girls and no need to tell which caste people raped them. **/

      Again pls dont speculate.. give statistics to your allegation.. we will debate based on them..

      /**
      And, don’t tell me rape was introduced to India by British and it’s a westernized culture. It’s really disgusting to see people like you’re advocating child marriages.
      **/

      that is the truth, and you dont want me to tell that.. right? The rape was first introduced to india by Islamic Invaders.. and later, the british introduced it in a different form, by alterning the mindset..

      • Sevvel says:

        Correct Senthil.. Even the Thennilai war can be taken as an example, where widows of the defeated army are allowed to take veeramathi or to leave to their parents, but not raped at all.. this was happened in the Kongadesam @ Vijayanagar period..

  3. Mpr says:

    Unlike the govt, parents are concerned that their culture is getting propagated. So if the parents think that girls have to bear that burden, then it’s for them to make that decision. Not govt’s nor others. And when there are different rules for Muslims, Hindus & others there is no justification for the govt to hold Hindus under it’s thumb letting others go scot free.

  4. Viswanath says:

    transcript, with the little Hindi I understand:
    Q: Please tell me how reducing the age will help.
    A: The way the incidents have increased. This has lead the society to think. We should note the serials in the TV. We have Etka Kappor, Mahesh Bhatt, live in relationship, surrorgates. These are for the mature society. The uneducated society, is not competent to take in this value system. This has forced people to think over

    Q: Please tell me how reducing the age will help.
    A: That is not a solution. We are not in favor of this solution. We are not in favor of reducing the age from 18. But we need to think over why the people are so afraid, why the quality of the lives of our sisters and daughters have stoop down so much that, the panchyats have to take such a decision.

    Q: Why rapes?
    Mentality. The environment has an effect on the mind. The way the Western culture is imposed on the the immature country, where the youth and the society have not yet become competent to absorb this … (Interupted by anchor, asks why is this occuring) … The western cultural thinking, the dressing .. The way in television, e.g Ekta Kapoor, depicts all illegitimate relationships, all these have an impact on the young mind

    Q: Anchor asks, how is dress and rape related ? Are you trying to say if a girl is fully dressed rape cannot occur?
    A: The problem is not that, the problem is that if we exposed to serials, films, and we have people like Ekta Kapoor who work only on sex, then for sure people of animal mentality will get influenced by those thoughts, and will fall prey to them .. (Anchor asks, if he is trying to say such serials are not displayed such the mentality would not exist ?) .. No, the environment matters for sure. The problem is the education of the culture is not being given to the people and therefore people with weak mentality perform such crimes ..

    Q:Why cant you give strong punishments?
    A: Firstly, I would like to point out that Ranjana Kumari is presenting a very dull picture of Haryana, but such people never give a solution. Till now I have participated in many debates, but many times the people are ready to raise negative aspects, but these people never give a solution. Many of them have NGOs under their control, the have the capacity to use their NGO to change the society, eduacte the people in the region, but they never take up such activities. However, they are ready to bicker about a region if the rapes occur in a region.

    Q: But the Khap Panchayat is not ready to listen to them
    A: We can go to the region and talk to the people regarding this. We have to met such people and find out why people take such decisions in the Panchayat. We need to think along these lines …

    Q: How can you explain Khap panchayat taking decisions like women cannot use mobile phone and not use jeans also ? FYI, I am wearing Jeans in the sudio .
    A: You are in Noida, it is sky-ground difference between Noida and Haryana.

    Q: Then why not mobile phones?
    A: The villagers do not have so much education. There are no schools like DAV. In those environments robbery occcur?

    Q: If robbery occurs why don’t you teach lessen to the boys?
    A: Of course, we do take action against the boys. Our opinion is that, by law and through police force you cannot stop such events. This has only solution. Education the people, awaken them. Bring the environment in Delhi and Noida to the villages.

    Q: SC has told spoken against Khaps, why are you still in control/power ?
    A: Anyone who talks of banning Khap panchayat, I do not consider him to be a responsible person. It could have happend that 1-2 decisions of KP be wrong, it gives the guideline to the people in the culture where society in Haryana lives. If legal power is given to Khap panchyat, the problems will be solved in the village, without pendings in the court. It would also save the expediture for all.

    Q: Marraige of the same gotra should be discouraged?
    A: I completely agree to this. It is required for the society in which the people live in. We must keep in mind the social norms and customs of the society before taking the decisions.

    Q: So the decision of honour killing is correct ?
    A: This is only media trail. It is compeletely wrong.

    Q: No I have worked and made and 0.5 hour documentary on this topic. I have Bhalia Khap’s decision, who told that the boys and girls of the same gotra must be killed.
    A: I competely disagree to this. There is no proof for any such decision by a Khap panchayat.

    Q: Your feelings on women wearing jeans pant ..
    A: Here women need to lift Gobar. It is a different society.

    Q: Shouldn’t that be the decision of the girl there?
    A: Why do you talk of think like the jeans of the girl, mobile phone and never talk of edcuation or in income. No one dissuades poeple from wearing jeans. The economic situation does not admit to wearning jeans.

  5. poovannan says:

    the question is choice .why do we have 18 as the age to vote and why cant we give vote to 1 year olds too or parents getting the right to vote on behalf of children
    a minimum age is required to select a political party or spouse on their own free will.
    they are not cows as a friend commented on how villagers know when to have them mate. they are humans who have the choice to mate the person of their choice and refuse if they are not interested

  6. poovannan says:

    khap panchayats are powerful when the women are powerless and fortunately the situation is changing.womens education and presence in various jobs from police to administration are on the increase and the time is not far before the khaps are shown the place they deserve
    increase in marriage age has another benefit and its reduced fertility and chances for death during pregnancy reduces. I will not be surprised if our tradition torchbearers argue that maternal deaths are a natures way of population control
    people are against child soldiers,child labour but for child marriage.why this farce
    there may be a tradition of genital mutilation or sale of virginity practised in some communities. why should it be allowed in the name of tradition.
    child rights is no way lesser than human rights.state has a role to protect the child from abusive parents and child marriage on a child is abuse

    • senthil says:

      /** womens education and presence in various jobs from police to administration are on the increase and the time is not far before the khaps are shown the place they deserve
      **/

      This shows your barbaric mentality.. the khaps are the real people oriented institution.. they take decision after consultation with the sabha.. and you are saying that women get education and become part of your exploitative and oppressive system, which thrives on raping traditional societies like khaps.. It is people like you who has to be and who will be shown the doors and NOT the khaps..

      /** why this farce there may be a tradition of genital mutilation or sale of virginity practised in some communities
      **/
      Its practiced ONLY in muslim and some christian communities .. be explicit..
      and khaps are certainly not doing that..

      • poovannan says:

        http://www.medindia.net/news/indiaspecial/13-Year-old-Virgin-for-Sale-in-India-35445-1.htm

        She belongs to the Bedia community that is well known for its caste-based prostitution. The normal going rate for a night starts from Rs.100 rate, however virgins are valued “commodities” and a pretty face can fetch as much as Rs.40,000 ($1000). Suli is likely to fetch about $500 and is awaiting the highest bidder.

        http://www.anti-caste.org/2012/05/badi-caste-nepal.html

        Sabitri Nepali was initiated into the traditional vocation of the Badis before she turned 14. Now, at 30, she is baffled by the changes taking place in a country struggling to climb out of a feudal past and transform into a modern, democratic republic.

        “‘My family has survived on this trade for generations. My mother was a sex worker and I continued with the family profession. It was normal for us

      • poovannan says:

        what is the role of women in khaps.why the sex ratio is alarming in areas still having and are under the influence of khaps
        women are considered a burden and fit for specific jobs by khaps and hence people living under them carry out female foeticide and practise all tricks to have a male child.
        show me one women who says that she is not interested in studies,sports and consider that she is born to lead to life subservient to men doing household chores for them

      • senthil says:

        @poovannan,

        Female infanticide is promoted by your indian government.. during 1970s, they introduced various abortion techniques, and sex-selection technology.. it is the government which is the culprit..

        The khaps are the oppressed society, and you are repeatedly blaming them for the ills your government introduced..

  7. R.Venkatanarayanan says:

    Senthil has raised relevant questions and they deserve debate without emotion and invective. As usual in our country,too many irrelevant issues are being brought in by commentators that divert the focus from the core issues raised by the Khap and Senthil. Denigrating age-old Khap Panchayats without understanding their structure, mode of functioning etc is urban arrogance of the colonised minds. For them it seems that whatever is culturally accepted in the Western World is ipso facto right. The absurd aping of practices like Valentine Day, Mother’s day and Father’s Day etc are some examples. Feminist warriors also do not seem to have thought through what is the substantive basis and meaning of what the Khap feels is the problem. Personally I think the more mindlessly free we are with the rotten movies and TV shows centered on explicit sexual connotation, under the notoriously misunderstood concept of “freedom of expression” the more there will be problems we seem to be encountering. In our country for thousands of years local customs were treated with respect. Many of the vast mass of laws we have, are not rooted in the customs and culture of society in different parts of our country. Deeply embedded social practices and underlying views should not be deemed merely as some legal problems to be dealt with by laws and courts. Harmful, cruel and injurious practices would need to be changed or eliminated by public education. Finally, have any of these rootless urban warriors tried to sit with the Khap leaders to understand their thinking?
    R.Venkatanarayanan

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  9. senthil says:

    @KP,
    /** I don’t oppose sex @16. But I oppose marriage @16. **/

    If you accept sex @16, what is preventing you from accepting marriage @ 16?

    • KP says:

      If you think sex is the ONLY reason to get married then you’re completely wrong. I don’t know you whether you’re married but if you’re then you would know what constitute a marriage.

      A lot of things that prevent me accepting marriage@14. Do you really think a 14 year old girl can choose a life partner(Not just a sex partner)? Just imagine what happens if someone chooses a life partner only to quench their sexual desire. How do you think a 14 year old can have knowledge to set up a family,kids,etc?

      In marriage @14 case, parents will not allow kids to think/decide on their own. Kids have no words/choices in their marriage. What the parents simply do is, they decide their kids’ future. They decide who’s the groom even though girl doesn’t like. As simple as that. Just imagine what would happen to that girl if their parents are ignorant and stupid. The girl’s t life is gone forever and the girl will be an ignorant too for rest of her life. There’s no going back. Your society wont’ accept widow remarriage (you’re mum on widow remarriage ever since I raked up that issue),divorce and remarriage,etc. In this case the girl’s life is without choice. The choice is either made by her parents or her in-laws.

      I expect your reply on widow remarriage issue.

      • mpr says:

        Here is an interesting link

        http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2003/07/29/marriage-according-to-agni-vivaha-smriti/

        3)One who abducts a woman is recommended the death punishment or payment of a heavy fine.

        4)The wife may choose a new husband under the following conditions:

        a) the male is sterile b) the male indulges in promiscuous dalliance or visits public women c) the male has no interest in married life and takes saMnyAsa d)the male dies e)the male vanishes during a journey or voyage. Ideally if the male dies, the female must take the brother of the male.

        5)Same gotra marriage should not happen [If it doesthe male and female should cancel their marriage and live as a brother and sister avoiding intercourse]. The male and the female should not share a common ancestor for 7 generations on the paternal side and 5 on the maternal side.

        So there is scriptural assent for widow remarriage. Had seen a documentary on Mahaperiyaval of Kanchi Mutt where he had supported widow remarriage. Its a lie that Hinduism doesn’t allow remarriage.

      • senthil says:

        @KP,

        You cannot argue based on imagined scenarios..

        Family is NOT a private entity for the boy and girl alone to decide.. this is a western framework.. In indian tradition, vivaha has a different meaning and context.. here a family is always part of the commune where everyone plays a role..

        So i dont accept your notion that it is the girl alone who should choose a life partner..

        And why do you always assume that arranged marriages are always against girl’s wishes? you are arguing based on negative stereotypes careated around traditional society.. Most of the marriages are arranged in india even today..

        Unless the girl falls in love with any other, she always accepts her parent’s decision.. the family and community shapes her mindset for that.. but it is the urban system which is creating disturbances in these traditional society, by forcing the girls to stray and go against their tradition..

        Next, marriages are NOT done just for sex.. it is done, to prevent strayong of the sons and daughters because of this sexual urge..

        My stance is that the urban people should mind their own business, and strive to reduce the divorce and crime rates in their own backyard.. you dont have the right to dictate to rural society.. they are the ones who look after their children, and whether they marry at 14 or 16, it is they who are going to support and care their daughters.. give that freedom to them, and keep your individual rights, with yourself..

      • senthil says:

        On Widow Remarriage:
        —————————–

        Every community has their own norms on widow remarriage.. Widow remarriages are NOT followed in settled societies, whereas in tribal societies, its NOT a norm..

        Again, you cannot set a standard for that, and establish widow remarriage as the standard.. allow every community to follow the tradition without any interference..

  10. senthil says:

    /** can u please take a look at the age of rapists.how many of the rapists are in this age group
    do you have any statistics to prove that rape is mainly committed by unmarried sexually deprived men.this is stupidity.
    **/

    Do you have any statistical data on rape?? If so, kindly share here, and then we will find out where stupidity lies..

    /** age of marriage and instances of rape have no connection in any part of the world nor during any period in human history
    **/
    What study did you or any other person conducted to come to this conclusion?

    /** rape is less in northeastern states where there is no restriction in movement between men and women .
    **/
    Again pls give proof..

    • poovannan says:

      http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-12-19/india/28268251_1_cases-highest-number-official-data

      this is taken from the link you gave.i have lived in northeast for several years and have seen boys and girls practising music,dancing till late nights
      their marriage systems are also simple and many have the practise of getting married after the girl conceives.
      the various types of marriages are
      when the boy and girl are from various clans like naga,kuki,meitei,gorkhas etc they elope and elders bring them before the panchayat. some fine is imposed like money and feast and they are allowed to cohabitate in the girls village
      when a boy and girl from the same clan fall in love they cohabitate and on getting pregnant marriage is fixed
      when the parents fix the match they cohabitate and on the girl getting pregnant marriage is conducted. there is no taboo in separation during cohabitation nor big social obstructions to divorcee remarriage,widower,widow with several children getting remarried .sex is not a taboo there unlike the khap dominated areas
      the newer one is the church added one called as holy marriage where they get married in church and cohabitation starts after the marriage.

      I have no problems with any of these unlike the khaps in north which have rigid rules for females. they have no objections to jat,gujjar,bhishnoi,rajput males getting women from the poorer parts of india due to reduced female ratio but are up in arms against females marrying outside the clan

  11. senthil says:

    @poovannan,

    /**
    its the khap or taliban enforced mind which makes one see the women as a sexual object and any women without a guardian is considered as immoral by them due to their traditional beleif . the fault lies in this traditional beleif of seeing women
    **/

    How manipulative you are.. by pushing every fault on khaps, you people project yourself as angels..

    The khaps are a social entity, built up of relations, and culture.. a boy or girl within traditional society do not see women as women, but as relations like mother, sister, wife, and girls of other gothra whom they are legitimate to marry..

    It is your macaulay education system, which forced a child to see every other as just flesh and body.. In most matriculation schools, the boys are treated to see girls as JUST girls, and NOT as relatives.. so as girls for the boys.. The deliberate stripping of social value system, creates a vacuum, which is then filled by Bollywood films, and i need not say how they fill up..

    The fault is with your degraded, unnatural, and oppressive education system..

    and do you want proofs for this.. just look at the crime rate of america, where all conditions you mentioned exists ..

    this 2ndlook post will give you all the required statistics..
    http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2008/06/14/the-story-of-crime-prisons/

  12. poovannan says:

    you and the links you quote never fail to surprise me by your rigid fixed ideas on what is right and how great are khaps,caste,untouchability ,marriage immediately after attaining menarche etc
    i have quoted the traditions in northeast and the changes. this happens with every society. is it a sin if a person from northeast wants to follow the diet or culture of haryana or viceversa.
    how can we impose certain values on certain people because of their birth.there is nothing wrong in cohabitation before marriage or marriage followed by cohabitation or divorce or remarriage
    medical studies have conclusively proved that early the pregnancy more the chances of maternal mortality and we have people advocating marriage at 14 for girls.
    most of the maternal deaths occur in places where child marriage(naturally they co exist with khaps) is rampant and stupid traditions during child birth are still followed(they lock the pregnant lady in a room with a blade and she has to cut the umblical cord all by herself after the delivery and this is practised in rajputs from rajasthan on the beleif that it gets them very brave children)
    people have conveniently skipped the medical reasons behind making 18 as age for marriage

    • senthil says:

      Once again you are running away from directly answering.. i have given you the relevant links, which gives extensive statistics about the highest crime rate existing in america.. and american education system is what you wanted exactly..

      You need to answer, why your education system did not prevent such large rapes in america, inspite of 100% literacy there?

      You need to answer this, without deviating tactics or your usual allegatory lies on khaps ..

  13. Suresh B says:

    I must have given this links previously but here it is anyway. For those who claim khap panchayats are bad and British education is good , this book is a must read on the roots of dowry system (as opposed to Stree Dhan).

    http://www.flipkart.com/dowry-murder-0195150724/p/itmczyszzft5fguz?pid=9780195150728&_l=gWxQa0snNjHUHKJhnj_y0w–&_r=q8ddVaTwNVE1CFNoMuVOag–&ref=2a1776eb-2d0e-48ef-a3df-cad2becab226

    It also answers why dowry caused female infanticide which could be one of the causes for social evils including rape.

    As for the jurisdiction of Khap panchayats please read this article

    http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/52626-secular-india-vs-shari’ah.html

    We must admire the Muslims for having the courage to live by their laws, how ever ‘barbaric’ or ‘retrograde’ it looks t non Muslims. How ever as Sanatana Dharmis we are the first people to criticise our own ways. right or wrong is for the community to decide- not some joker sitting in Delhi either wearing a black coat (and till recently a wig) to pronounce judgements or a handful of jokers (547 of them) who cannot see beyond their greed filled eyes.

    Not for nothing has it been said that the law is an ass.

    So called progressives who want same gotra marraige are welcome to suffer genetic disorders. But they have no right to force and tempt stable rural societies to follow their idiotic ways.
    The Khap panchayats are the last hope of this benighted land. Lets support all their attempt to keep local government alive. Instead of everybody bowing and scraping in front of the Delhi Sultanate controlled by Romans.

  14. poovannan says:

    @senthil i have said holy marriage from the words of tribals. christianity is too victorian and far more oppressive to women than any other religion. the spread of atheism has made it lose its stripes like what is happening to hinduism now
    what are the statistics you quote. we have to see that with the movement of women,their numbers in schools,colleges,jobs etc.there will be no deaths due to electric shock in a village without electricity.its the same with low rape statistics as the abused women doesnt consider their abuse as fit for complaint.abuse based on caste and poverty is more rampant here than the west
    Indian women are yet to come out to complain against incest unlike west and hence the low statistics. abuse of an uneducated,poor,dependant women is far more easier and common and khap dominated areas have them in plenty

  15. poovannan says:

    @senthil you are skipping the medical arguments behind the minimum marriageable age .why

    do you consider death during pregnancy is due to poorva karma and hence should not be interfered.
    Taliban forces its women to avoid schools and movements outside without male escorts and our khap talibans want to take the same route. India is not Afghan and the khaps will soon be sorted out by women

    • senthil says:

      Deaths during pregnancy is not related to early marriages.. So again pls dont divert the core issue.. Atheists and Liberal Talibans in india have oppressive upper hand now.. they will be soon be dislodged..

      • poovannan says:

        dear friend
        you should have a open mind in discussion and see the facts and not beleive in myths that varnsharma,khaps are the best to happen to human beings

        http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs348/en/index.html

        Key facts

        Every day, approximately 800 women die from preventable causes related to pregnancy and childbirth.
        99% of all maternal deaths occur in developing countries.
        Maternal mortality is higher in women living in rural areas and among poorer communities.
        Young adolescents face a higher risk of complications and death as a result of pregnancy than older women.
        Skilled care before, during and after childbirth can save the lives of women and newborn babies.
        Between 1990 and 2010, maternal mortality worldwide dropped by almost 50%

      • poovannan says:

        what do you have to say about this

        The risk of maternal mortality is highest for adolescent girls under 15 years old.1, 2 Complications in pregnancy and childbirth are the leading cause of death among adolescent girls in most developing countries.1, 2

        Women in developing countries have on average many more pregnancies than women in developed countries, and their lifetime risk of death due to pregnancy is higher. A woman’s lifetime risk of maternal death – the probability that a 15 year old woman will eventually die from a maternal cause – is 1 in 3800 in developed countries, versus 1 in 150 in developing countries.

        even in developed countries with availability of advanced medical facilities the proportion of woman having fatal complications and severe morbid complications are disproportionately higher in pregnant adoloscents and you dismiss it without any idea

      • senthil says:

        Where is the data sheet? where are the numbers?

        do you realise that you are only stating risks and probability and NOt actual numbers??

        and what these has to do with varnashrama and khaps?

        US has the highest number of teenage pregnancies (without marriage), and more than 50% end up in child birth.. they do not die as you are projecting.. you can have the data here..

        http://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/aboutteenpreg.htm

        Stop abusing varna, khap and traditional society, and focus on the issue alone..

        As per the UN WHO, the environment is the major problem for most of the diseases and health factors.. and it is your urban system which is destroying the environment, making it unsuitable for life.. and note that again you are the culprit here..

        And deaths during child birth happens mostly due to lack of skilled mid-wives, and again it is your government which destroyed the traditional administrative structure, and prevented them organising medical facilities for them.. again you are the cuprit..

  16. senthil says:

    @poovannan,

    In a debate, there should be a continuity in the discussion.. you are propping up abstract random arguments endlessly..

    I have given you statistics on how the education system you are advocating does not prevent crimes, and you are yet to respond to that..

    Next, i had also proved you how within traditional society, children see women as relatives, whereas, in schools, they are forced to see girls just as girls, which is the root cause of perversion and other moral degradation.. you have not answered this also..

    and you have not given any statistical facts or proofs for your allegations..

    • poovannan says:

      i have shown you the facts about northeast on how free intermingling culture with no victorian or brahminical moralities have little chances for rape.
      marietal rape accounts for a significant number in the cases reported abroad and India is yet to even acknowledge that.
      our proportion of rape when seen along with the presence of women in various fields is disproportionately higher in comparison with developed countries. the chances of a woman living alone,travelling alone,returning late nights after work,returning from bars,cinema halls getting sexually abused is far higher in India.

      • senthil says:

        @poovannan,

        you havent given any statistics on your northeast example.. that’s what i am asking for..

        You are arguing based on your stereotypes.. what is brahminical moralities to do with rape? this is what one call as blind allegations..

        There is difference b/w tribal communities and settled communities.. you cannot set tribal life style as univeral standard.. the settled communities have their own restrictions, and restrictions do not mean oppression..

        Pls stop commenting on your imagined scenario.. Pls speak with data or facts, or a rational argument..

    • poovannan says:

      what about the report which says on nagaland having the least number of rape complaints.i have an article for you as you talk similar to pakistanis on respect to women

      by Dr Shazia Nawaz
      The other day, I came across a video on YouTube. It showed the Punjab Assembly’s proceedings of June 20, 2012. In that clip, Chaudhry Allauddin, a member of the PML-Q,
      while having a heated argument on the provincial budget, called the women of the opposition “dancing girls from the well of death” of a circus and added, “We know what kind of women you are. We know your past.” And of course, a bearded lawmaker sitting next to him kept clapping and cheering hearing those remarks and could not control his joy.

      This whole thing reminded me of an argument that I once had with a Pakistani journalist. He did not like my stance that women were respected more in the west. He very angrily claimed that women, especially as they age, are respected more in Pakistan. And he, of course, mentioned how his mother, grandmother and sisters were the most respected members of their family.
      And I said to him, “While you respect your mother and sisters, the guy standing on the corner of your street have no respect for them and he may teases them when they go out.”
      And this is exactly what it is. Pakistan does not teach us to respect humans in general and women in particular. Women are teased and harassed on the streets. In fact, most of us Pakistanis don’t even know what respecting a woman really means.
      While keeping in view the example of Choudhry Allaudin and his disrespect for women lawmakers of other parties and using dancing girls as a derogatory symbol, we must bear this in mind that when we truly respect women in a society; dancing girls too are equally respectable.

      You just cannot yell at them, “Hey, you are a dancing girl.” Why does dancing girls have to be looked down upon? And even if you may look down upon them, you have no right to insult them. Who says you are better or deserve more respect than them?

      Respecting women in a society does not mean just respecting your own women, or respecting women who are lawyers, doctors, or politicians. All women have to be respected.

      Women walking on the streets need to be respected even if they are not related to you.

      Dancing girls, students, sales girls, social workers, and even sex workers need to be respected.

      No matter how modestly a woman may dress herself, she still cannot walk on the streets of Pakistan without her male chaperones. Women are teased, even groped and touched, and yelled at depending on how much seedy neighborhood they are in. In the West, a woman can wear shorts, skirts or whatever she wants to wear, and no one feels that her clothes give them a right to hurl an insult at her or call her

      a prostitute or a dancing girl. This, my friends is respecting women!

      You do not put conditions on women: You would be only respected if you wore hijab, or

      naqab, or dupatta, or walked this way or that way.

      You cannot tell them that they have to be only teachers or doctors to deserve respect.
      You cannot make respect conditional. Every woman who gets a chance to live in the west can feel the clear difference; unfortunately many cannot put it in words. Many who are enjoying their freedom in the west, cannot comprehend why they like it so much better in the west. Our women have to be educated first before we could educate our men on how to respect a woman.
      Sadly enough, in Punjab Assembly, the women who were called the dancing girls, did not get support from the women of PML-Q. It’s simply the socio-political culture. A lot of times women are happy when another woman is being insulted, and show little unity. And then there comes a day when they are called prostitutes. If Pakistani men are ever going to respect Pakistani women, Pakistani women will have to respect each other first.

  17. senthil says:

    @KP,

    /** If you think sex is the ONLY reason to get married then you’re completely wrong. I don’t know you whether you’re married but if you’re then you would know what constitute a marriage.
    **/

    you said sex @16 is OK, but not marriage at 16.. and my question is that if you accept sex @ 16, what is preventing you to accept marriage at that age? you did not answer that..

    /** In marriage @14 case, parents will not allow kids to think/decide on their own. Kids have no words/choices in their marriage. What the parents simply do is, they decide their kids’ future.
    **/
    @14, its NOT kids.. they are matured girl / boy .. so pls use right words..

    If the girl/boy likes the partner their parents chooses, they should have the freedom to marry.. why are you preventing them, just because they are 14 or 16?

  18. poovannan says:

    @senthil kindly go through this too

    http://southasia.oneworld.net/news/india-bengal-records-highest-teen-pregnancy-cases#.UIJwp64pB1k

    When the girls quit their studies, they are immediately married off. According to UNICEF, motherhood among teenagers is nine times more among girls with no schooling than among women with 12 or more years of education.

    “Teenage pregnancy is a major cause for maternal mortality. As cases of teenage pregnancy increase so does the maternal mortality rate. This affects the country as a whole,” says Dr Subhra Pal Choudhury, Gynaecologist, Bhagirathi Neotia Hospital. About 78,000 women die in childbirth every year in India.

    MOTHERHOOD AMONG TEENS WITH NO SCHOOLING IS 9 TIMES MORE
    and you argue in reverse of the current education system being a spoiler.i just traced my family tree and came across 3 instances of maternal deaths in the past 4 generations and with no one less than a graduate degree now there is rarely any maternal or fetal death. my father was born with 11 siblings and only 6 crossed the age of 5

    • senthil says:

      see.. media news dont become data.. teen pregnancy is NOT a problem at all.. What you need to prvoide data is how many total deaths during pregnancy, and how many deaths are within teenage.. so far you havent provided such data..

      In my family tree, most of the elder woman are married at very young age, and no one had faced maternity deaths.. Just 5 years before, my cousin brother married a 17 year old relative, and they have two children now, and all of them are very well..

      Marriage at early age is very advantageous, psychologically ensure that the girl is adapted to family system.. it is only in late marriages, that all kinds of abuses, divorces, extra-marital affair, etc happens..

      • poovannan says:

        maternal mortality is high in india and teenage pregnancies play a major role in that is like newdelhi is the capital of india but you amaze me by refusing to accept that(kindly google and you will details about that in plenty).
        You can close your eyes against any data but do you have the rights to force your views on others.kindly show me one women who prefers to marry at 14 a male selected by her parents and be a housewife for life to him and will not aspirations to be a pilot or doctor or airhostess or police officer
        think of ways to make women agree to the role your utopia gives them and you may get the shock of your life that there exists none.no women is willing to play second fiddle now and their aspirations and ambitions are no different from what the men have

      • senthil says:

        @poovannan,

        I am tired of reminding you for data.. if you dont have, gracefully accept that.. without any data, all that you say is imaginative, and speculative.. and imaginations would always be amazing ..

        Pls stop repeating the same oppression theory again..

  19. Mpr says:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/health/puberty-starting-earlier-in-boys-new-study-suggests.html

    Girls & boys attaining puberty earlier, so why not allow parents to choose what’s best for their kids. Get the govt out of the bedroom business? Isn’t what the ‘liberals’ wants?

    • senthil says:

      @MPR,

      Yes.. government should get out of bedroom business..

      also please read about adolescent sexuality..
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolescent_sexuality

      Its an established fact, that sexuality starts immediately after puberty.. keeping them unmarried for long time is cruelty..

      • rebel says:

        On reading your article and your comments, I am just curious on your life.. Many so called Traditional-vocalists or right-wingers I have seen never seem to uphold the values they try to shove on others. I would with people talking much about culture, chastity, tradition to hand their gmail id’s and passwords. Wont be a problem to them if they are so confident that there wont be any chats, affairs, or mails that would totally contradict what they are speaking on…

        Though I refrain from asking your id and password, Let me put some simple questions,

        1. What is your age?

        2. Are you married? If no, why insisting early marriage for others and you not following what your traditional society would ask of? I would definitely bet if you are not married the society around you would be pestering before or in the near future.

        3. Do you have a daughter? If yes would you let her married off in teen years, and let panchayats and other random people choose your daughter’s life?

        4. Seems you are tamilian, if so would you like the same Khap panchayats in your village? They would hack most of previous generation tamilians, because of their cousin marriage which is heavily punished almost always with death in the areas ruled by khaps. Dont give me answer like they are free to impose in their society. Thats just admitting that they are too violent for you to accept one for your village.. I suppose many married couples in your relatives or your family members may be cousins.

        5. As you support khaps, I suppose you are from a dominant and powerful ( monetary or otherwise) caste of your region. Have you ever lived a life of a dalit? Have you been denied entry to temples? Have you been made to walk long routes to avoid high caste streets? Have you been called names because of your birth?

  20. senthil says:

    Regarding Age of Consent for consensual Sex: In most countries, this age is 14 or 16.. In Japan, the national age of consent is 13.. In vatican, its 14..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

    Only in india, these educated urban people has taken the entire rural people for granted.. the age of consent in india is 18.. whereas during british period the age of consent was 12.. systematically, the anti-social government had oppressed the entire society..

    Wonder, what would those so called progressive people would say..

    • poovannan says:

      sexual feelings is not the same for all and quiet a bit prefer to be bachelors/spinsters too.crores have crossed that age groups and there is no freudian study that links rape to deprivation of sex after attainment of puberty
      free interaction between boys and girls can help them get over infactuations and if two persons of similar age groups have sex with content no one enters into that .the tradition makes a 30 year old thaaimaama(brother of mother)marry his sisters 14 year old daughter and senthil considers that has great .are the northindian friends for that.beautiful tradition for one is ugly for another and no developed society can force these on adults and children without their consent in the name of tradition
      marriage is an oppression as parents doesnt treat sexual compatibility of any importance and caste,property plays a major role in selecting the spouses for their children and in tradition they even decide the time and date of penetration and even now for married couples including adults in 30s they keep them separated for months in the name of inauspicious time and dates

  21. poovannan says:

    Health For Young Mothers – Vigyan prasar science portal
    http://www.vigyanprasar.gov.in/Radioserials/5HealthForYoungMothers.pdf

    Health Risks of Early Pregnancy
    When a woman is too young, pregnancy can be dangerous for both mother and infant. Even under
    optimal conditions, young mothers, especially those under age 17, are more likely (risk of death
    may be two to four times higher) than women in their 20s to suffer pregnancy-related
    complications and to die in childbirth. In a study of nearly 11,000 pregnancies over a 5-year period,
    outcomes in a hospital in West Bengal, India, varied by age as follows:

    • senthil says:

      @poovannan,
      Atlast you have managed to provide some data points..
      I am reproducing the exact data given in the link above..

      Total surveyed: 11,000 child births..
      Age Maternal Deaths./1000 birth
      ——————————-
      12-19 3.8
      20-30 2.5
      > 31 1.07

      Most of the girls in west bengal are married very young.. so there must be large number of women 30 should be rare..

      The data did not give the exact count of each age group in that 11000 cases studied..

      The rest of the interpretation is just rubbish, and propoganda.. just like Life Boy soap makes you buy soap by frightening you about germs..

      It is very clear that maternal deaths occur even with 20-30 age groups, and there is not much difference b/w it.. so, 3.8/1000 births means, 0.38 % .. and 2.5/1000 means 0.25 %..

      Are there any big difference b/w these two numbers?? This data doesnt prove, that later marriages prevent maternal deaths..

  22. poovannan says:

    http://womensenews.org/story/reproductive-health/110318/indias-maternal-deaths-tied-teen-moms-anemia?page=0,0

    among the 43 percent of adolescent girls in India who are married off before the age of 18. The organization, based in Ahmedabad, Gujarat, works to improve the health and nutrition of children, youth and women, including socially- excluded and disadvantaged groups.

    Only Bangladesh, Niger and Chad have higher figures of adolescent marriages, according to UNICEF’s report on The State of the World’s Children 2011, released Feb. 25.

    Bookmark and Share

    This high incidence of adolescent marriage both robs adolescents of their youth and deprives them of opportunities, says Karin Hulshof of UNICEF India.

    “Girls in the age group 15-19 who marry early are most at risk of being caught up in a negative cycle of premature child-bearing, high rates of maternal mortality and child under nutrition,” Hulshof said.

    The UNICEF report, which focuses on adolescents, finds that despite its rapid economic growth, India has not been able to significantly redress gender disparity.

    • senthil says:

      Adolescent Marriage is NOT wrong.. FULLSTOP.. You should stop being PR for UNICEF and other world bodies.. Allow the traditional society to live their life..

  23. KP says:

    /* Family is NOT a private entity */

    The problem exactly starts there. Family SHOULD be a private entity. Not having individual thinking and decision making are the biggest drawbacks of Indians. They have been like that for centuries. They always like to be told by their parents/caste/community elders to what to do. I definitely don’t want my cousin once removed to decide my life partner/family matter. Nothing can be worse than that.

  24. senthil says:

    /** Family SHOULD be a private entity. Not having individual thinking and decision making are the biggest drawbacks of Indians
    **/

    You cannot set standards for the society.. you are part of colonising urban setup, where you get your basic survival needs for very cheap price,kept at artificially low price.. but for the traditional society, they live in a different economic setup, which requires a collective living.. This is one of the greatest strengths of our country.. it is because they collectively live and produce food, you are able to sit at leisure and spit on them..

    /** They always like to be told by their parents/caste/community elders to what to do. **/
    so what is your problem?? If they abide by their parents/caste/community, that’s their life.. why should you peek your nose in to it, and create disturbance..

    • KP says:

      Well the funny thing is, if the people,parents/caste/community, who advise others are stupid, just imagine the consequences. The “stupidity” gets percolated from one family to another family and one generation to next. And, there’s no place for individuality, individual thinking and decision making. There’s no identity to you. You’re one among the herd. It’s in your social setup people poke nose in others family matters. Not in western style,FYI.

      • senthil says:

        @KP,

        /** The “stupidity” gets percolated from one family to another family and one generation to next. And, there’s no place for individuality, individual thinking and decision making
        **/

        Do you think an individual is always clever, and can make NO wrong decisions?
        In traditional society, any marriage is NOT arbitrarily decided by any single parent.. It is a commune effort.. Unlike in your so called individualistic urban society where the boy and girl is left to fend their own fate, in traditional society, people always decide things after debate, covering all aspects.. they are more individualistic than you.. it is the world view that makes the difference..

        The urban people do not think beyond their selfish needs, whereas, traditional society decides everything based on public interest.. you are showing your moral high handedness, by projecting rural society wrongly based on your imagined scenario..

        /** It’s in your social setup people poke nose in others family matters. Not in western style,FYI.
        **/

        Are you NOT poking your nose in to internal affairs of khap panchayat, when their decisions doesnt affect you in any way?

  25. senthil says:

    @rebel

    /**
    On reading your article and your comments, I am just curious on your life.. Many so called Traditional-vocalists or right-wingers I have seen never seem to uphold the values they try to shove on others. I would with people talking much about culture, chastity, tradition to hand their gmail id’s and passwords. Wont be a problem to them if they are so confident that there wont be any chats, affairs, or mails that would totally contradict what they are speaking on…
    **/

    What you said is true.. but we have to see this in different perspective.. Tradition and culture cannot be followed in isolation.. it needs its own people group, environment, organisational setup and more than that, the living tradition to continue.. i agree I myself has lot of such contradictions.. i always strive to follow my tradition, and i am well aware why i am NOT able to in many cases..

    what we are speaking is NOT about individual conduct, but a collective conduct.. this collective conduct need not be universal.. it is specific to each people group of particular region.. within a region, different people group have different tradition…

    In today’s situation, the invasion of media, and hostile government policies had thrust upon an alien cultural and economic framework on our society, where no people group is able to continue or follow their culture or tradition.. they are virtually enslaved, and made as economic slaves of the industrial society which the government is creating.. The people do not like the present situation, and that is why they want to revive tradition.. but are powerless to create a conducible environment for that..

    THe society is systematically altered, and it is openly proclaimed by the government.. and how can you expect people to overcome this assault and stick to their culture?

    /**
    1. What is your age?
    2. Are you married? If no, why insisting early marriage for others and you not following what your traditional society would ask of? I would definitely bet if you are not married the society around you would be pestering before or in the near future.
    **/

    I am not yet married, and am crossed the 30th age.. the way in which i was brought up, did not facilitate early marriages..
    I had analysed people of my age group who married earlier and those who are NOT married and came to this conclusion that marriages has to be conducted earlier.. again pls note that we are not targetting individuals.. but the general practice..

    /**
    3. Do you have a daughter? If yes would you let her married off in teen years, and let panchayats and other random people choose your daughter’s life?
    **/
    Your ignorance is acute here.. panchayats dont choose bride.. it is concerned parents who select brides or grooms.. but there is a common restriction (or we can say rules) that the everyone in a community follows.. the panchayats interfere only when these collective restrictions are violated..

    The panchayats dont issue fatwas.. their decision is binding only for their region, and for the communities involved within their society.. So stop villainising panchayats and khaps..

    /**
    4. Seems you are tamilian, if so would you like the same Khap panchayats in your village? They would hack most of previous generation tamilians, because of their cousin marriage which is heavily punished almost always with death in the areas ruled by khaps.
    **/

    First of all, the khaps oppose same gotra marriage, which is common to all.. even here we cant accept same gotra marriage.. and your own indian government also has laws preventing marriages b/w brother and sister and issues punishment for that..

    The only difference is that here in south india, we follow a tradition where son/daughter of mother’s brother, or father’s sister are married.. that’s the tradition here, and acknowledged by the panchayats of this region.. the khaps enforce their tradition in their own region.. why do you want universal traditon for all?

    /**
    Dont give me answer like they are free to impose in their society. Thats just admitting that they are too violent for you to accept one for your village..
    **/
    The khaps are NOT some dadas or dictators like the present colonial indian court system.. the khaps have thousand years of history, and their decision are binding only on their own society.. we support them and they support our tradition, and that is mutual.. IT is people like you who want everything to be destroyed, and enslave people under your own version of societal framework, which itself is an oppression..

    /** I suppose many married couples in your relatives or your family members may be cousins. **/
    Most of my relatives are close relatives… i prefer not to use the english word for cousin.. instead use indic term for father’s sister or mother’s brother (i think, even in hindi too, mother’s brother is called mama.. in telugu, it is bawa..)..

    /**
    5. As you support khaps, I suppose you are from a dominant and powerful ( monetary or otherwise) caste of your region. Have you ever lived a life of a dalit? Have you been denied entry to temples? Have you been made to walk long routes to avoid high caste streets? Have you been called names because of your birth?
    **/
    Yes.. i have been from farming community, and i know the life of all jathis.. no one calls themselves as dalits here. dalit is an artifical identity that is created and sustained artificially.. so your question appears silly here..

    From your question, i assume, you are grown up in typical urban setup.. that is the reason that you are echoing the same propoganda dialogues that we used to find in media and academic circles..

    For your information, in our region, all jathis had mutual dependancy till 20 years before, but it is the government and its hostile policies (globalisation) which destroyed this social fabric.. and people like you (who are beneficiaries of alien urban setup created by govt) blame the victims for the crime you have committed..

    • kP says:

      @Senthil

      So you confessed you’re a HYPOCRITE. You preach a lot of things and you yourself don’t follow them and expect others (in your parlance it’s community) to follow.Nice going. FYI, you’re the finest example for the word hypocrite as far as I know.

      I appreciate your confession,though.

      So far, I atleast believed you walk the talk but it’s not the case,or, it has never been. How ridiculous it’s when a hypocrite like you blame others. Funny, ain’t it? I really spent a lot of time replying your blogs. In the hindsight I wasted a lot of time replying to a hypocrite. Enough is enough.

      • senthil says:

        @KP,

        Very good diversion tactics by you.. but you see, i had faced such argumentation strategy in the past :) ..

        First tell me where did i preach anything to others? we are supposedly discussing and NOT preaching..

        The issue here is that the khap panchayats took a collective decision to marry girls at 14 and boys at 16, which they already follow.. and it is you people who are poking your dirty nose in to it. and i am opposing this unjust and malicious interference in to rural community..

        So on one hand, you attack the society which is practicing early marriages, and on the other hand, you are attacking me for NOT practicing the same.. who is the hypocrite here?

      • KP says:

        @Senthil:
        Okay, probably you didn’t know the meaning of HYPOCRITE.

        I neither got married @16 nor endorse such stupidity. But you endorsed marriage @16. In practice you don’t do such things but you expect others to do. That’s the perfect example of hypocrisy.

        You preach things that you don’t pratice in your own life. If someone questions you, you hide under the disguise of community,culture..blah,blah. I don’t see any difference between you and Muthalik ( some hindu leader who opposed valentine’s day celebrations but during a sting opeartion he admitted he will create mini riots if paid).

      • senthil says:

        @KP,

        Every community have their own tradition, and i endorse the right of those communities to decide for themselves.. The Khaps decision are for their own communities, which i need not follow..
        I follow the tradition of my own community, and all that you can ask is whether i follow my family/community tradition.. marriage @16 was once part of our community tradition, but it was destroyed by your urban lynch mobs long back .. If your gang had NOT interfered in our customs, i would have been married long back, and would have completed half of my life’s duties..

        On one hand your gang had destroyed the agriculture systematically, thus depriving our people of livelihood.. and on other hand, you are treating these victims as criminals, and setting moral standards for them.. This is naked assault, which you people go scot free..

        There is no rule that endorsing a particular tradition, means i should follow the same? There are few tribal communities, who have polyandry, and i endorse that too.. and some communities have matrimonial system, and i endorse that too.. it is irrational and illogical for you to expect me to follow everything that i endorse.. all that you can ask is whether i follow my own community tradition or not..

        Next, You dont have any right to set standards for others, and calling marriage at 16 as stupidity is itself a stupidity on your part.. Puberty is the deciding factor for marriage, and NOT the whimsical rules set by you..

      • KP says:

        /* There is no rule that endorsing a particular tradition, means i should follow the same? */

        Then why do you expect others to follow it?? You blame everybody in the world because they’re not following your endorsements. And, you accuse them they westernized (It’s rather civilized) you,etc. But, in reality you preach things that you don’t follow. What a crook you are.

      • senthil says:

        /** Then why do you expect others to follow it?? **/

        I never asked any one to follow that.. i did not ask you or the metro society to follow that.. I am only defending the rights of the khaps to follow their own tradition, which you people are assaulting ..

        Now i ask you a counter question.. why are you preventing khaps from following their marriage @16 tradition? why dont you leave them and look after your own business?

  26. poovannan says:

    Targetting senthil for his inability to practise what he wants is not fair as we are fortunate that people,leaders have worked hard to make those practises impossible
    The quote on gothra is interesting as he is not concerned about the women.the women have no gothra or lose that on marriage. the meaning sagothra is meant only for men and i cannot understand why sister too is called sagothari.
    There is no medical evidence that sisters son is different from brothers son but its almost impossible to convince senthil who will ignore that as western propoganda
    Marrying mothers own brother too was very common till a few years back and being a fellow tamilian from rural background i dont think senthil can dismiss me
    I wish to see the utopia of senthil village where all castes had a peaceful harmonious relationships and where happy with burning the dead or carrying the dead cattle,stitching footwear,washing clothes etc who now curse the leaders for making their children become soldiers,officers,doctors,lawyers

    • senthil says:

      @poovannan,

      /** Targetting senthil for his inability to practise what he wants is not fair as we are fortunate that people,leaders have worked hard to make those practises impossible
      **/

      THis is a direct assault on traditional society, and you cant be point blank.. there is nothing more to debate with you.. but dont feel fortunate.. the days of your hegemony and assault is over.. the telengana story is just an example, on how tradition and regional culture can bounce back.. Khaps will get new strength, when educated but rooted people takes over its leadership, who can kick the butt of urban morons..

      /** I wish to see the utopia of senthil village where all castes had a peaceful harmonious relationships and where happy with burning the dead or carrying the dead cattle,stitching footwear,washing clothes etc who now curse the leaders for making their children become soldiers,officers,doctors,lawyers
      **//

      First tell me who is carrying dead, in your bloody urban setup.. and then we discuss about villages.. dont repeat the same sickening argument.. i had already shown you how exploitative your doctor and lawyer profession are and you are setting that as standards.. this explains everything else..

  27. poovannan says:

    How will the khaps deal with parents or children who doesnt want to get married is also the issue here.
    India still has a huge group of people opting for child marriages and the state is not able to even protect those who are against this practise
    Khaps give death sentences for couples who marry outside caste,prevent women from joining jobs,having mobiles,wearing dresses they like,thrash women who doesnt cover their forehead in front of men etc and the state has a duty to protect people who want to escape this tyranny
    Khaps exist because of fear and patriarchy and not due to compassion and love as senthil argues.

    • senthil says:

      i had explained earlier that khaps are decentralised and commune setup and NOT a dictatorial organisation.. but you are spreading canards and lies about it.. by repeatedly denigrating khaps, you are unleashing intellectual terrorism.. and rational debate can never be possible with you..

      • rebel says:

        People putting their views are spreading canards, lies, denigrating khaps, unleashing intellectual “Terrorism”. In the meanwhile khaps are nice, commune, non-dictatorial, party going, liberal minded, science loving, educated, rational thinkers..

        I have no more to say.

      • senthil says:

        @rebel
        /** People putting their views are spreading canards, lies, denigrating khaps, unleashing intellectual “Terrorism”.
        **/

        So abusing others, making denigrating opinions are JUST views for you??

        /** In the meanwhile khaps are nice, commune, non-dictatorial, party going, liberal minded, science loving, educated, rational thinkers..
        **/

        Khaps are what they are.. you cannot set standards for them, and then abuse them for NOT living according to it.. why dont you let them to live their life?

        The khaps need not be liberal in urban terms.. they may not be science loving… but they are more rational and more pragmatic than most metro idiots..

  28. poovannan says:

    The govt or the state has rarely entered the bedrooms across the country unlike the khaps which enter every alternate day.The khap forces the families,individuals who do not have objections to intercaste marriages or same gothra marriages to follow their dictum or face death/boycott.
    The khaps being unelected and belonging to a single gender,caste,group fails miserably in comparison with the state when it comes to legitimacy.
    Who are khaps to decide what a woman should wear,study,marry
    The state doesnt force any individual to go for intercaste marriages or same gothra marriages but just support those who want to do so. calling this as tyranny is amusing
    the state has a right to prevent child abuse and based on medical eveidences decides on the correct age for schooling,marriage,job etc.child labour and child marriage are nothing but child abuse and the state exist to prevent that abuse

    • senthil says:

      You are repeating the same canards and lies .. who are you to dictate to khaps which is a representative body, and a legitimate one? Your constitution is illegitimate and prepared by British Boot Lickers..

      It is your state government which is intruding in to each family’s bedroom, .. it is your laws which punishes and bans cousin marriages, and marriage b/w brothers and sisters.. and the latest attempt by your state is to fix salary for house wives.. and you want to paint a glossy picture as though your state govt is NON-Intrusive..

      the khaps have every right to protect their social structure, and you people have no business poking your noses in to it..

    • senthil says:

      Your state government is actively destroying the society by promoting inter-caste marriage, and creating social disturbances.. in every country, the constitution and laws should represent their social norms.. But only in india, a small group of Colonial Hang overs, has enslaved the entire society and is hell bent on destroying them..

      I have a simple question.. you urban fellows follow what you want in your area.. why should you poke in to the rural society? Why dont you allow them to live their own life? the men and women are part of that commune, and you want to separate them, and make them as economic slaves..

      • poovannan says:

        where you get this notion of state poking its nose.its the other way round
        The people,women suffering under the khap or traditional set up,cry and plead for help and the state is forced to take certain steps to help them
        Khaps trying to force their way by punishments is ideal for you but the state trying to educate people on the benefits of newer system of medicine or education for all ,removal of caste based inequalities is tyranny.wow
        your hopes on telengana makes me scratch my head in disbeleif.can you elaborate on this this.I have worked in telengana and found the movement is an aspiration for entering all jobs in large numbers which they feel that they have been deprived by people from costal andhra
        its a naxalite movement turning to movement for separate statehood and a major role is being played by dalits and women.vijayshanthis and gaddars are the face of the movement and KCR promises a dalit cm if they get telengana and come to power.

      • senthil says:

        You are repeating the same canards and lies..

      • senthil says:

        khaps are collective body of panchayats.. If you deny this, then give me proof..

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