Most of the urban Hindus, had been obsessed with Varnashrama Dharma, for both supporting and opposing it. One group wants dharma to be uphold, whereas, another set of group, attacks it for oppressing dalits as untouchables.
First, let me come to the supporting groups. The main reason for them to support varnashrama dharma is the call by late paramacharya, of kanchi mutt to protect our dharma. Because he said it, dharma had become a Biblical call to protect.
The opposing groups, often cite dalits, untouchability, and accuse that varnashrama dharma had oppressed these people for thousands (!!!!!) of years.
The reason for all these, is the lack of understanding of what is meant by varnashrama dharma. Only manu smriti was the source of information for all of them, and most people project manusmriti as Biblical Authority for whole of Hinduism. No one had ever seen or studied manu smriti with open mind.
This post is an attempt to clear all the FUZZ around this.
Varnashrama Dharma is NOT totalatarian :
Most of us think, that manu smriti is a totalatarian book like the bible, or the Indian Constitution. This is wrong. Varnashrama Dharma, is only for the settled society. NOT for all people. There are so many people groups, where varnashrama dharma doesnt apply, and that they lived independant of the settled society.
To quote an example, Sri Rama is a kshatriya. But what do we say with Guha? He is NOT a shudra, NOR a panchama. He is the chief of a fisherman community, a semi-tribal group. Varnashrama Dharma do NOT apply to them.
Arjuna and other pandavas were kshatriyas. But Ekalavya?? He is just chief of a tribe. And varna dharma doesnt apply to them.
In Short, all tribal societies are outside Varna Dharma, and varna is NOT mandatory for them and NOT enforced on them.
Infact, the varna based societies had co-existed with these groups peacefully, recognising their rights over the forest. Look at the following texts of Manu Smriti.
On failure of witnesses (from the two villages, men of) the four neighbouring villages, who are pure, shall make (as witnesses) a -decision concerning the boundary in the presence of the king.
259. On failure of neighbours (who are) original inhabitants (of the country and can be) witnesses with respect to the boundary, (the king) may hear the evidence even of the following inhabitants of the forest.
260. (Viz.) hunters, fowlers, herdsmen, fishermen, root-diggers, snake-catchers, gleaners, and other foresters.
The above quote from manusmriti says, that king should consult the local people and also the inhabitants of the forest, like herdsmen, hunters, fishermen.
What does this indicate? The settled society, based on varna dharma is confined within its boundaries. The forest, hills, and other areas like grazing lands, belonged to the tribals and other people groups, and they were freely continuing their livelihood.
Manu Smriti is NOT Bible:
Is there any society in europe, that exists outside the purview of Bible? Except for some micro-Minorities (like Roma Gypsies), there is nothing. The Bible classifies the whole world in to Believers and Infidels, in which, the infidels are either to be converted to christianity or destroyed. In short, its not allowed for any people group, to exist outside Biblical Society.
And varnashrama dharma is being perceived on the same lines, by a section of our people. That’s wrong. Varna classified people outside varna as Avarna, but recognised their rights over their land. Varna Dharma doesnt attempt to convert others. Infact, it only throws people out of varna system, if they dont adhere to it.
Varnashrama cannot be Followed:
Many people often say, that everyone have to follow Varna Dharma. This is total rubbish. Manu Smriti is NOT a bible to be followed or believed. Varna dharma is NOT a religion. Its NOT a belief based system. These are just frameworks with roles and responsibilities for a settled society.
To give an analogy, suppose you are working in a particular company, and there are certain rules to be followed for the role you held in that company. Will it be sensible, if you change your company & roles, but still want to follow the previous rules? Same applies to varna dharma. It needs its own social model to be applied. When you migrate to westernised cities, you should discard your varna and dharma.
And varna dharma applies only to vaidiha society. NOT to Asuric society. Today, the westernised cities are based on mlecha model, and totally asuric. And by living in such cities, one cannot even think of varna dharma.
So the hindu activists should realise this, and stop confusing themselves with varnashrama, in the name of “Protecting Dharma”.
Manu Smriti is NOT a Constitution:
Today, any one violating the Indian constitution is punished by the judiciary. The accused will be either fined or imprisoned. Few set of Hindus are made to think that the same thing happens in the case of varnashrama dharma. This is wrong.
Varnashrama Dharma is NOT a totalatarian like the Indian Constitution. Its just a framework for a settled society which lives in areas (Gramam & nagaram) with demarcated boundaries. People are free to come out of it and live in a different place. Varna Dharma doesnt prevent them. Infact, it excludes a non-adhering person out of varna setup, rather than arresting and torturing him like Indian Constitution does.
Does the Indian Constitution give that freedom? Can any one say “I dont want to be subjugated by Indian Constitution, and at the same time live here? Does Indian Constitution allow this?
Now tell me, who is oppressive?
NOT all Dalits are Shudras:
This word is recent invention and exists only in past 100 years. It is not used even in british documents on indian society as late as 1850s, indicating common people never used this. Its irony, that the Hindutva people, hang on to this political identity.
Shudras are NOT dalits. Shudras are referred as Putra Varga. Meaning, the group of people, to be protected by the kshatriyas at any cost. Shudras are NOT obliged to fight in war. Its only the kshatriyas who has to fight the war and face death.
NOT all people groups, classified as Dalits are Shudras. Many tribal groups who migrated to plains were also classified as Dalits (or SC) by government.
Untouchability:
Now, with the details so far discussed, if we look at untouchability, it is perfectly valid and sensible. People from brahmana varna who has to follow stricter codes of life, cannot afford to mingle with the tribals or other incompatible people groups.
Untouchability is perfectly valid, when followed within the vaidiha society like traditional Bharatheeya gramams. There the shudras themselves realise this and hence keepts distance away from brahmanas. But, if the same brahmana ( & other varnas too), comes out of that setup, settles in asuric centers like westernised urban Cities, and still follows untouchability, it is ridiculous. Because, that person himself becomes untouchable.
The Conclusion:
All the consusion started, only when the Britishers started conquering India. As explained in my earlier post , they changed the varna system in to a racial Caste System based on European concepts. Later, the missionaries, and the marxists, who dominated indian intellectuals & Academic space, continued this in Universities, Media, and Government Policies. The result: The Indian State, had been always hostile to Bharatheeya Society. The Indians (the class of people, educated in english, and reside in Metros), had been highly contempt of our traditional society. Everything is seen only through perspective of Oppression, Suppression, and Discrimination, till today. Ironically, it is these very same Indians, who had colonised whole rural india, exploits it for their daily survival.
Some points to conclude.
- The Tribals, who are now categarised as STs , had always been recognized by indian kings, and their rights over their forest land, had been acknowledged. It is Indian Constitution and Indian Government, which oppresses them. Again, its ironical, that the very oppressor itself is proclaiming itself as saviour, by categorising them as ST.
- The Hindu Activists, and the Hindu supporters, have to realise that, they have only either-or option. Either, they can live in Westernised Urban Centers and DISCARD varnashrama dharma, OR they have to come out, and live in traditional Indian Villages & Nagaras, as per Varna Dharma. They should NOT attempt to mix both.
- Since all traditional bharatheeya villages, and Nagaras had been colonised and destroyed by Colonial Indian State, today, even if one wants to adhere to varna dharma, could not do so. Bcoz, the required ecosystem is refused for them.
- The varna system, had allowed NON-Varna Tribal Societies to co-exist, and interacted with them. But the totalatarian Indian State, is NOT allowing a varna society to exist, and had destroyed all traditional villages. Who is oppressive? the Indian State or Varnashrama Dharma?
Varnasrama Dharmam is only followed by Sanatana Vaideeka people who happen to be major part of the Indian society….
Now in an unsustainable form….marriage 18/21…..retirement 58
It is really a thought provoking article.
Please continue to enlighten us with such articles.
All the best
Excellent again.
/*Varnashrama Dharma, is only for the settled society*/
i had this thought for a long long time . the way i see this in the current situation like when a country is totally down say after a war, then no classification is needed among people. everyone deservers basic requirements like food and shelter. So comes the rights.. this is like communism. once the people get enough of food and shelter and are willing to showcase their talents, then comes capitalism where the one with talent survives. at this stage we would have shown so called tremendous external growth but would have exploited the resources unconciously. then finally comes the framework of live which is eco friendly, which incorporates the best of communism, the best of capitalism and the best of everything.. and that framework is varnashrama dharma..
i see this as various phases of evolution of a civilization. communism->capitalism->varnasharama dharma. just from a framework for life standpoint…
Senthil,
A very eye-opening website. I’m a brahmin from Chennai. Having had a westernized education, I never got to learn the truth about “caste-system” till now. Very informative.
Thanks
Thanks.. its time for us, to understand our society & culture from our own pespective.. it would be difficult for you to unlearn what has been taught in schools.. but we need to strive for that..
@Senthil:
I know! I came to know about the influence of Marxists and Communists in our Social Studies textbooks only after I finished my undergraduate education. I discontinued learning Sanskrit and our scriptures at an early age. Any suggestions as to where I can continue learning again?
@bbc.. you can approach samskrita bharathi, and even become a volunteer for teaching sanskrit.. i dont know if you can learn veda ..
Senthil, i see that in lot of instances you have expressed intrest towards reading sanskrit. which is a great thought.. In one of your blogs you had mentioned that you are not a brahmin. when you apprach brahmins for learning sanskrit do you see any resistance? One of my friend raised a concern to me stating that he cant read sanskrit and vedas but he is intrested to.. what is your situation on this area? if there is a place where anyone can learn sanskrit then i would suggest it to my friends as well..
@swamy,
I dont know sanskrit.. but some of my friends know it.. I havent approached any brahmana for learning sanskrit.. so could not say..
For those interested to learn sanskrit, please approach samskrita bharathi, an organisation, that works in spreading sanskrit knowledge among people.
1. Manusmriti is not meant for Kaliyuga.
Both veda and Srimad Bhagavad Gita explain varna.
2. Varna applies to all people who are dharmik, conscious of what is correct. Those who identify with physical body and acts with selfish motives are avarna, mleccha, untouchables.
3. There is no settled or unsettled society. There is only society; that draws inspiration from Bharatiya samskriti, or does not.
2. Guha was a dharmik person. He helped others.
3. Ekalavya was not very dharmically oriented. he sew up the mouth of a dog rendering it incapable of feeding or defending itself.
4. Take the case of Ratnakara. he too was a mleccha, robber in jungle, avarna. Later he developed dharmik consciousness and became Maharshi Valmiki, a brahma jnani, a brahmana.
5. Varna is not something people are branded with when they are send out from the otherworld. It is the expressed behavior of a person here that determines varna.
6. Varna is not something mandatory or enforced. It is, expressed behavior of a person, which again, changes with time, that determine varna.
7. It is your misconception that varna is confined to settled societies(whatever that is). veda and Gita say it is applicable to all humans.
8. ‘It’ is not a system like judicial system.
please read veda and Srimad Bhagavad Gita to understand varna.
/*It is your misconception that varna is confined to settled societies(whatever that is). veda and Gita say it is applicable to all humans.
*/
both senthil and X are right.
Varnashrama dharma is for all. for entire humanity.
BUT to understand it and implement it the right way takes some maturity and only when people are in a certain state of being they could grasp the subtleness of this varnashrama model. people who are too concerned about their body, people who are too concerned about their survival cannot think and comprehend varnadharma. only when one turns inward he starts looking at life in a different way which wont happen in the current capitalistic or communist way of life.. when people are done enough with their physicality of life and are physically and emotionally settled, then will start looking inward and then they will start paying attention to what varnashrama dharma is all about. i assume when senthil says “varnashrama is for settled societies” he is trying to convey this. senthil, please correct me if i am wrong..
@x,
we are shifting our unending debate from twitter to this blog
/** 7. It is your misconception that varna is confined to settled societies(whatever that is). veda and Gita say it is applicable to all humans.
**/
Please quote the relevant Gita Sloka, which states like that..
/** 2. Guha was a dharmik person. He helped others. **/
Helping others is Never a criteria to be dharmik.. even murderers & thieves help others..
/** 2. Varna applies to all people who are dharmik, conscious of what is correct. Those who identify with physical body and acts with selfish motives are avarna, mleccha, untouchables.
**/
Dharma is NOT belief based, or faith based.. Its a set of rules & responsibilities that applies only within the varna based society..
/** 3. There is no settled or unsettled society. There is only society; that draws inspiration from Bharatiya samskriti, or does not.
**/
It seems, bharathiya samskriti has become like a all powerful source, like christian god.. pls come out of this imagination..
There is difference b/w a tribal society and a settled society.. there is difference b/w asuric society and vedic society..
1. Do find out urself which sloka of Gita says about varnas.
2. Murderers and theives help others with selfish motive.
Dharmik peple help others because that is the correct thing to do.
3. “Conscious of what is correct” is not about ‘belief’ or ‘faith’. dont misunderstand.
It is not about rules and responsibilities either. It is, knowing what is correct, and doing that.
4. U r doing the imagining that Bharatiya Samskriti has becom like christian dog.
There is only ‘society’; that draws inspiration from Dharmikata, or does not. The former is worth living in. The latter, mleccha,asurik.
/** There is only ‘society’; that draws inspiration from Dharmikata, or does not. The former is worth living in. The latter, mleccha,asurik.
**/
There is only Jesus.. and all people has to follow him.. that’s the right way.. rest are infidels.
Do you find any diff b/w above lines with your statement?
Is there no diff between “drawing inspiration from (Dharmikata)” and “following (Jesus)” ?
mleccha, asurik is not a label. its a characteristic.
Dharmik, again, is not label. it is characteristic. that which is right. correct, sustains.
“having faith” is different from “realizing Dharma”- ‘realizing what is correct and doing that’.
If u cannot see any difference between these two, u need to seriously introspect.
/** that which is right. correct, sustains. **/
that which is right, correct, sustains differs from region to region, person to person and jathi to jathi… these are NOT universal.. all your statements are projecting dharma as universal, & homogenous, and that is what the problem here..
if someone suggests that u breath fresh air, wud u say that “air differs from region to region, it is not universal, your statements are projecting air as universal, & homogenous, and that is the problem here!” ?
@X,
The air differs from region to region and also the water differs from region to region.. do you know this?
u were told to breathe fresh air. that enlivens u.
and u r entanglng urself with ‘differences’ from region to region!
if u dont find fresh air in a place, go to some other place. or endeavor to change the bad air/ its causes.
but, for the sake of everybody, do breathe fresh air.
.
Understand what is correct and implement it, that is Dharmikata. it does not matter which region u r in.
a society or a person who does not do that is like a place with bad`air. mleccha, asurik.
to be shunned.
Just for the sake of discussion, Shall we consider a hypothetical scenario of classifying the current generation people under the varnashrama framework?Trying to do this itself is NOT CORRECT. But just for the sake of clarity of who falls under which category in the present day…. Some think high that they are brahmins but they actually are not. Some feel low as if they are shudras and they need not feel low as well.
To start with, There are common men who needs lot of things like security,commodities, knowledge etc. we will come to this common man category later and discuss about the people who provide security, knowledge and commodities.. so i guees the first 3 classifications in varna dharma are clear and straight forward.
Kshatriya – one who is suppose to protect the common man..
——————————
So one who is in politics like chief ministers, MLAs, MPs, Governers, prime minister and president, IAS officers, IPS officers, police, army, Navy and various ranks within each of them. all people in these categories are the kshatrias.
vaishyas – business class.
——————————
so Ambani, tata, mallaya, narayanamurthy and other CEOs of all companies, factories. People who do individual business, small scale businesses right from pottery to chip manufacturing are vaishyas..
brahmana – the “really learned” people and “spiritually inclined” people.
——————————
So scientists,reasearch assistants, professors,teachers in school and college, pandits, scholers, philosophers,priests in temples, people living at ashrams FULL TIME practising meditations/yogas/bhajans/Social services etc.
Now lets talk about common man. By default every one is a common man. Every one starts as a common man. The above 3 sections are required for common man to survive harmoniously in social set up. there is no doubt about it. these 3 layers of people are dedicated and operate full time. for these 3 class to be successful and efficient, they need to be full time and not part time. they should not be “jack of all trades, master of none” kind.
NOW LETS START EVERYTHING FROM THE SCRATCH STARTING NOW.
How many of us aspire and actually become a successfull politition or become IAS for example.i.e to be a kshatriaya?
5% of the population. OK. we will start calling them kshatriya.
How many of us aspire and become a successfull buiness man?
20% of the population? OK. we will call them vaishyas.
How many of us aspire and become a successfull brahmana. (teacher/researcher/full time in spirituality) –
10 % of the population.OK. We will call them brahmana.
Now the remaining are the common people. this section of people would not be the leader in their aspired group but will be in other lower (NOT INFERIOR) ranks/designations. if they had aspired as a kshatriya, they may not be a minister, but will be player or volunteer in the political party. They work for welfare of the party. if they had aspired to be a CEO, they would be a worker or may be a project manager in a company…
Common man means someone who didnt make it in the above 3 layer. But operates in his own boundry depending on the excellence in the skill that he has. Software enfgineers, clerks, postman, tellers in bank, workers in factories, entire workforce in government offices etc are the typical common man. Even other categories like farmers, fisherman etc who also falls under the common man. In a nut shell, anyone who is not in above 3 category is a common man(Shudra).
Senthil, is it fair enough to classify the current generation this way ?
NO.. do you see any dharma among the sections you mentioned? Is there any dharma for ambanis?
Vaishyas also have dharma.. and their profession is subjective to their dharma.. if they violate it, then they are kicked out..
Similarly just taking sword and fighting doesnt constitute a kshatriya.. any one can do that..
I wrote this article, to argue against these kind of modern day manipulation of varna dharma..
OK. my comment was more towards the word varna and i missed to point out about the dharma associated with it. there might be thousands of dharmas laid down which when followed by an individual he then belongs to that varna. Is it?
actually speaking with the kind of dharma mentioned, if we map it to current generation we all would become avarna as no one can follow everything mentioned against every varna..
Since this is kali yuga where people would not care about dharma, is it appropriate to still classify them into the varnas and say they belong to vaishya but they are “failed vaishya”??
You are right.. today, the whole setup is AVARNA, and indeed an ASURIC setup..
what is the diff b/w kamsa and the present indian model? Except, that people choose a kamsa every five year..
Senthil, another good post for debate.
Mr.X is Guruji to me, whether he has accepted me or not.
Gurus come from Guru Parampara, qualified by deeksha.
Pranam. I learn Bharathiya Samskriti from you.
Bharatiya Samskriti is ‘there’. What you cognize is entirely your own.
You are not dependent/beholden to anybody for the wisdom you have gained. The prajna that enlightens anybody else enlightens you as well.
Sun’s rays may be reflected by an object and glare visible from one angle. That does not make that object any special. The same sun falls on every other object on earth in same manner.
(Of course, some, who crowd under some ‘ideology’ or ‘faith’, may deprive themself of sun rays, thats a different matter).
Pranams to the prajna that en-wisens you.
Brilliant, as usual. A thought – how about setting up some dharmic principles for avarnas? Like a Lowest Common Denominator? Some ethics by which people should live their lives?
Say the community of this blog must adhere by the dharma mutually agreed? As i Said, just a thought…
Thanks suresh..
Its possible.. but largely depends on the necessities, and prevailing environment.. rules and regulations themselves doesnt constitute dharma.. rather, it is the acceptability of these rules which decides, whether it becomes a dharma or an imposed one..
The Avarnas have their own version of dharma.. they have their own god, and have their own internal tribal setup.. members of their tribes adhere to the prevailing order.. so in my view, they already have their own dharma.. it may or may not be compatible with main stream society..
/*The Avarnas have their own version of dharma.. they have their own god*/
so do you mean to say that all the jaathis (u are trying to protect) that you are talking about espeacially in tamil nadu belong to avarnas? as every jaathi/kulam has their own gods(kula deivams) and traditions.
2) what are the dharmas for Shudra varna? Can you please elaborate on those? the only thing that people point out is that shudra is made to work for other 3 varnas. there should definitely be somthing more than just working for others..
3) what % of people were avarnas in the past? do we have any references for the same?
4) is avarnas same as panchamas?
5) is avarnas same as outcasts?
6) what was the process followed in case one varna person wanted to become another. say a business man wanted to become kshatriya or brahmana. Say he has all the talents and aspiration for that. was that permited?
7) is there any book for manusmruthi? heard a lot about this manusmruthi but never saw or searched for a book titled manusmruthi till now..
8) can you please give some examples and coorelate which jaathis (present jaathis) belonged to which varna in the past?
/** so do you mean to say that all the jaathis (u are trying to protect) that you are talking about espeacially in tamil nadu belong to avarnas?
**/
There is one simple rule.. all those jathis having well defined kulam and gothram, can be assumed to belong to original varna dharma.. eg: vellalars (pillais), chettiyars, brahmins, etc.. in our area, even parayars, have well defined gothram.. meaning, they are part of varna dharma..
All those jathis which did not have the kula/gothra, are NOT part of varna dharma.. eg: vanniyars, mukkulathors (kallar, maravar, ahamudaiyar), etc.. they constituted the bulk of soldiers (mercenaries) , for the later day kings .. it is these jathis, by nature of their history as fighting soldiers, part of the caste conflict..
In tamilnadu, the caste conflicts are confined b/w mukkulathors & pallars in south, vanniyars and parayars in North.. all other jathis, are peaceful, except for some exceptions..
/** what are the dharmas for Shudra varna? **/
They share much of the culture of other varnas of their region.. the major difference is with profession.. they constitute the working force .. the main difference is that they are independant, and NOT commanded by any one, like slaves of the west.. they are free to live as community, and that prevents any one from oppressing them..
i will write more on this in my next article..
/** what % of people were avarnas in the past? do we have any references for the same?
**/
I dont know.. i think there was no concept of census before britishers.. do we?
/** 4) is avarnas same as panchamas?
5) is avarnas same as outcasts?
**/
I think NOT.. need to do more research on it.. for eg, Guha & Ekalavya are AVARNAs.. but are they outcaste? In my understanding, outcast are those who were earlier part of varna, but later thrown out..
/** 6) what was the process followed in case one varna person wanted to become another. say a business man wanted to become kshatriya or brahmana. Say he has all the talents and aspiration for that. was that permited?
**/
It is simply NOT allowed.. bcoz, a person at an individual level can wish to become brahmana.. but what will he do with his family, his relatives? Can he break that bond? Or can every one of them be able to change their varna..
Varna is NOT a mercenary individualised job to change as we want.. It was a collective role, assigned to a commune.. husband, wife, children, relatives, and everyone do the same work, and hence its difficult for individual to change their varna..
/** 7) is there any book for manusmruthi? heard a lot about this manusmruthi but never saw or searched for a book titled manusmruthi till now..
**/
English translation is available online.. u can refer below link..
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/manusmriti.asp
and google for more references..
thanks a lot senthil. this is what i really like in your blogs.. i really get convincing answers..
thanks @swamy .. mutual understanding is the goal here, as opposed to message & messenger as in Semitic Religion.. at certain stage, i will be learning from you too
avarna is not a tribe. avarna is one who is involved in self aggrandizement, adharmi, generally a person whose company is best avoided.
sudra is one who is motivated by the purushartha of kama. when u r motivated by kama, u r sudra too.
when u act motivated by desire to uphold dharma, u r kshatriya. if motivated by materials, their working, production, u r vyshya. when u act motivated by desire to know urself, know the basis of all that is seen, experienced, u r brahmana.
when not motivated by the above/when action motivated by selfishness/negative reasons, the person is avarna. mleccha.
actions form habit, which shapes character, which defines life. people, thru continuous actions motivated by predominant varna in them come to exemplify the varna. However, it is not transmitted to progeny. children develop their own character, though influenced by parent/environment. It is not community that decides varna. Rather, varna is the basis for company, and community.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/manusmriti.asp
Senthil the link that you provided for manusmruthi, is it an authentic link worth reading? it talks about aryans and it says shudras as unholy slaves…
@X,
Material pursuits is allowed to all varnas. Kama is also allowed for all varnas. The brahmana, kshatriya and vyshya are imposed so many restrictions, just because they held important roles in the society.. Whereas, the shudras are the workforce, and hence they are not subjected to stricter rules.
What you are attempting to do is to project shudra as lowly, and to project brahmana as high.. I too did that mistake in the past..
Shudras also have dharma.. From the books of dharampal, shudras also practiced Sati.. (in one of earlier post, i had given a european travellers reference, where a drum beater’s wife choses sati).
@swamy,
They might have interpreted in different way. That happens in english translation. So read it with skeptical mind, instead of relying on it.
material pursuit is acquisition of materials with selfish motive, which is avarna behavior.
action motivated by interest in materials, their functioning, production, etc., is not ‘material pursuit’. it is vyshya behavior.
what do u mean by ‘allowed’?
as if somebody is there standing with a lathi, ‘allowing’ u to do certain things. this is so mleccha concept.
there is nothing allowed or disallowed here.
ur varna changes based on ur behavior.
‘restrictions’ are not restrictions as u put it. they r actually self-directed behavior. a person in pursuit of realization of brahma sees through the temporality of external appearances and is not distracted by kama or artha or even dharma. a person passionate about dharmikata or righteousness, likewise sees through the impermanence of external appearances and is not swayed by kama or artha. A person engaged by materials is dealing with more concrete thing than mental imagination. A person swayed by kama is enamoured by appearance. The last mentioned state is not conducive to receiving jnana and so sudra is not given veda jnana. The same sudra or even mleccha, if develops dharmikata, like Ratnakara did, can acquire brahma jnana.
varna changes with behavior. it depends on variation in gunas. which again depends on karma samskara. Pattern of behavior that emerges, through repeated pursuits of a particular kind determine the predominant varna of a person. It can be reinforced or changed. nishkama karma exhaust karma samskara and raise the dominant motivation of the person from kama to artha, then to dharma and finally, moksha.
sudra is not the person. it is varna. a person displaying sudra characteristic may be called sudra for that time. likewise, brahmana is one who displays characteristic of brahmana varna, which depends on his karma samskara determined gunas. it is not permanent.
practices or customs have little to do with varna. a chandala was recognised as brahma jnani by Adi Shankaracharya.
Good article. One point i’d like to make. The whole beauty of our scriptures, smrithis etc. is that you are, as a living being with 6th sense, allowed to debate it, analyse it, discuss it and “realise” it. This is not allowed in other religions like Islam & Christianty where its blasphemous to question the Bible or Koran. So we can all discuss this till we die and out next generations can continue to discuss this. BUT, I emphasise BUT, it cannot be destroyed. THATS THE BEAUTY OF IT. its been written in such a way that its eternal until pralaya comes and destroys everything BUT “SRUTHI”, the base of our Vedas.
oops. sorry. pressed the “post” button before i could complete.
that being said, the Varna Dharma as discussed here is more of a framework for society at large. The keyword being its a framework & as told by senthil its not rigid. it can be molded for the time that we live in. As kali progresses we definitely need to adapt these to current situations. The puranas are there for us to read and learn how this progression was made and based on that modify to current times we live in. what we instead do is jumble all of them and say all smrithis and puranas are not suitable or unfit. etc. etc. One is a framework and other is examples. In computer science, i can say it as one is framework & other is test cases. Only when you apply your use case to the problem, you see the applicability if the framework & test case. sorry if this is confusing to some
Thanks Ramesh.. but who is eleigible to modify these smritis? Definitely not you or me or any other politician.. Defnitely not those intellectuals (whether marxists or hindutva or liberals)..
To quote an example, read the parasara smriti.. parasarar says, that manu smriti is only for satya yuga, and cannot be adhered to in kali yuga.. hence he relaxed many of the rules, for the kali yuga and then wrote the parasara smriti..
so an enlightened master, a yogi, a guru, a sanyasi has the right to adapt smruthis to current times…
i also wondered who would announce the change of manu (a guru said its going to happen in next 700 years). in sankalpa mantra we talk about the current manu and this mantra would change once the manu change.. guess it would be an enlightened being who would announce this change…
a rishi has the eligibility to do that.. even then, it cannot be univeral and totalatarian.. but today, whom can we call a rishi ?
We may not find Rishis in hut. But we still have enlightened masters.. Dont we?
We still have rishis.. but they dont advertise to us. i dont consider Sri Sri and other yoga gurus to have the authority to change the smritis.. Even Swami Dayananda Saraswathi of Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha, dont have that authority..
I got the basis of this article I didnt have much time to read it all but correct me if I am wrong from what I can tell Certain Dharma isnt for every one like how certain religions or beliefs are not for every one.
For Example in Ancient Japan the Samurais followed a certain Code or Dharma called Bushido which is the written and unwritten Ethics, Beliefs and Way of the Samurai but not all Japanese followed it for example a Merchant has his Ethics which might be different to the Samurai as well as to the Farmer, the Craftsmen, the Emperor, to the Peasent also other Merchants or Groups of Merchants and Vise Versa.
Just as there are different sects of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism (Different Views) so do come different or slightly different Dharma.
Like Ramesh said the ability to Question things is great because it allows the Individual perceive God and the Universe that relates to them or makes sense to them also it prevents Hinduism going into the Dark Ages like Europe did at one point with Christianity and what Islam is in the Middle East, Pakistan and parts of Africa and Asia where Intolerants, perscutions of Non-Belivers and a unquestioned slave mentality to Allah and the Imams/Sheikhs runs rampant.
And most of all Dharma at its best and highest is Justice, Peace, Compassion, Understanding and Acceptance of others and the World around us as well as helping others and fighting against Injustice like War against a country which is invading others and is leaving death and destruction where it goes like World War 1 and World War 2 just as Lord Krishna said in the Gita, God will be with those who fight against Evil which happend in WW 1 and WW 2 when the Allies both times over came the Axis.
@Mitchel,
You are partly right.. your analogy with japanese martial races is very good and apt..
btw, there are no good and bad guys in world wars .. everyone was colonisers.. Hitler killed 6 million jews.. but do you know, Britain killed 20 million people in India alone within 50 years? and no need to say, that they killed majority of Australian Aborigines.. So who is the good guy here?
Dharma is NOT about holding AK47 and fighting wars.. Any one can handle an AK47..
Hi Mitchell:
You got it partly right. Dharma at its core is principle, duty, ethics. An analogy would be the Hippocratic oath doctors take, which is meaningless for a businessman.
But different Dharma is not like different sects of the western construct of religion. Dharma is chosen according to your Varna, which in turn is determined by you Guna(characteristic). It’s not based on beliefs – which is how a sect of a religion is determined.
Varnashrama arises due to the fact that knowledge can be imparted only according to certain rules/principles. Unlike in Christianity,etc. where you are allowed to talk to a random person on the road about Jesus, boundaries of people are respected. In Senthil’s earlier article on conversion, he quotes another writer who mentions how the Zoroastrians and Jews who took refuge in India were not converted/coerced to follow a certain Dharma (acceptance of others).
You cannot advocate justice and peace at the same time. The moment you advocate peace you are caught in a moral dilemma:
1. What if you are attacked?
2. What if your family is attacked?
3. What if your neighboring community of helpless people is attacked by foreign elements and you are capable of helping?
4. Should a country have an army/weapons?
(needless to say, I cannot fathom a “peace-advocating” liberal solving Arjuna’s dilemma)
Universal peace is a western liberal concept which ignores the fact that humans are drawn towards conflict. Varna Dharma on the other hand acknowledges the fact that it’s impossible to expect everyone to be principled. That’s why it is very strict in term of guidelines (like in case of varnashrama dharma) and not designed to include/appeal to the maximum number of people. No particular Dharma is designed to be universal. Justice in Dharma comes when you belong to ruling class – as a Brahmin you are not allowed to assume the responsibility of justice.
Compassion automatically comes when you uphold Dharma at the cost of personal preferences. Again, this is the reason that any Dharma would have very strict codes.
Historically, no oppressive regime has succeeded in the true sense (Nazi Germany, USSR). This is because forcing people to adhere to any ideology, no matter how ambitious, will always result in backlash (how soon it is, may differ). This is why Varnashrama Dharma doesn’t allow people who do not like the guidelines rather than forcing them to follow it.
“Fighting Injustice” – As in the MahaBharatha, Krishna tried to resolve the conflict peacefully first. He even pleaded with Dhuryodhana. Since it did not work, war was imminent. I cannot do justice to the Bhagavad Gita here. You should try and read S.Radhakrishnan’s translation and commentary on The Gita (he was the former President of India and was nominated for Nobel Prize for literature for 5 consecutive years).
@bbc
Excellent comment.. nicely explained..
@Mitchell:
Senthil correctly pointed out that WWI and WWII did not have good vs. bad in the true sense. It was a scenario of ‘lesser evil’. Soviet union was on the opposing side of Nazi Germany in WWII.
Modern history tells us that till Ashoka Maurya sent his daughter, Sanghamitra, to Sri Lanka, there was no Indian influence on Sri Lanka. The truth is that for centuries before Ashoka Maurya, the world has been trying to implement Bharattantra.
What the above extract tells us is that Vibhishana implemented the चातर वर्णाश्रम Chatar-varna system in Sri Lanka, for which he was revered. The reason why Vibhisheena defected from the Asuric Ravana to Raghu Ramachandra was to learn about implementation of Bharattantra – then called dharma.
This is the key to understanding the चातर वर्णाश्रम Chatar-varna system.
Bharat-tantra – Prequel To Modern History!
Much after Vibhishina, it was Gautama Buddha explains to the novice, Asslaayana, the risk of dual-mode, slave-master societies, like Yavana-Khamboja (Greece-Cambodiya) compared to a चातर वर्णाश्रम chatar-varnashram society like India. चातर वर्णाश्रम Chatar-varna society like India.
Till भारत-तंत्र Bharat-tantra became popular, the axis of Confucian-Platonic authoritarian, ‘wise’ rulers, who were not accountable, was (and again) the overwhelming model for the world. Property rights remained with less than 0.1% of the people.
Buddhism changed that.
Buddhism gained not because Buddha’s statues were prettier than the statues of previous deities. Or because Buddhist chants sounded better.
Dravidian history no one talks about …
Now to move to the ancient Tamil Classic Silappadhikaram.
The Tamil classic, Silappadikaram, is ancient Tamil drama about the perils of royal justice. Silappadhikaram is, a literary critic informs us is “a saga of the of the cult of the Goddess Pattini … the first ripe fruit of the Aryan-Dravidian synthesis in Tamil Nadu.”
Who is Goddess Pattini? Once a widely worshipped Goddess in South India, now limited to modern Sri Lanka “Pattini was an angry deity, whose anger was directed at evil people and she is also associated with rational justice.” The destruction of the city by Pattini, the Goddess of ‘rational’ justice, is a warning against vengeful royal ‘justice’ – and instead move towards ameliorative Indic justice system.
Elango Adigal warns Indic kings from taking over and interfering with dispute resolution mechanisms. The Pandyan King, Neduncheziyan, in Silappadikaram, comes to grief, after royal intervention goes horribly wrong, resulting in miscarriage of justice.
And later
The Tang Dynastry tried implementing Bharattantra using the Buddhist templates. The biggest achievement of the Tang Dynasty was land reform – which later sputtered due to practical problems, for which the Chinese did not have answers. That is why Chinese and Tibetan monks would make their way to India to learn about state-craft and implementation of Bharattantra.
Dont confuse caste system with चातर वर्णाश्रम Chatar-varna. The caste-system was an invention by the British.
An interesting sidelight to this whole story is one personality. Herbert Hope Risley. Incharge of the 1901 census, he believed in the words of his biographer (from Wikipedia) –
‘Risley believed that the varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and “meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it. seven racial types. The three fundamental races are – Dravidian, Mongoloid and Indo-Aryan. Four secondary races- Cytho-Dravidian, Aryo-Dravidian, Mongolo-Dravidian and Pre-Dravidian.”
And since then, the idea of the caste system mythology became established.
Risley was also behind the Bengal Partition along communal lines in 1905. On the Bengal Partition he wrote, “One of our main objects is to split up and thereby weaken a solid body of opponents to our rule.”
Lord Curzon on the Bengal Partition was lucid, ‘Any measure in consequence that would divide the Bengali-speaking population; that would permit independent centres of activity and influence to grow up; that would dethrone Calcutta from its place as the centre of successful intrigue, or that would weaken the influence of the lawyer class, who have the entire organization in their hands, is intensely and hotly resented by them.’
So coming back to this story, like I mentioned in my comment – caste system is a hoax, invented by the British, to expand and maintain power in India. Assuming ‘Hindu’ elites established this system in 1200 years, why have Muslim, Christian and Secular rulers been able to remove it in the last 1200 years.
It cannot be removed, because it does not exist.
Obviously, Desert Bloc systems, will confuse and make us forget about the real value of चातर वर्णाश्रम Chatar-varna – and confuse it with caste system.
Anurag,
Thanks for your excellent comment.. i came to know of Bharat Tantra from your blog, and it gave me newer understanding of varna dharma.. I am going to base my next article on this bharat tantra..
Btw, my previous post exactly distinguishes the varnashrama dharma from british caste system..
http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/the-birth-based-hysteria-2-why-birth-based/
The british converted chathur varna in to caste system by stripping dharma (value system from it), and making it racial..
In original varna dharma, a brahmin loses his identity, even for petty violations like selling salt, doing business.. but in british caste system, a brahmana is a brahmana, no matter, whether he is drunkard, or loafer, or even a rapist..
Senthil, Anurag,
I was intrested with the word asuric and also read anurags blog on asuras and slavery.
http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/asuras-and-slavery-the-indic-disconnect/
one thing lead to another and i was wondering whether asura could definitely mean people following slavery not just limited to that but anything mesapotamian/babylonian/persian/eqypt?
i was wondering the similarity in words like asura, ahura (ahura mazda) , assyria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naram-Sin_of_Akkad link gave me a link to my recently introduced word “meluha” . The book “immortals of meluha” that i suggested senthil to read. this book interwines shiva and also walks us through the history as well. it talks about the trade between india and persia as well and the character tarak appears in the story.
surprisingly i saw the same name in wiki as taharqa which sounds similar to taraka (tarakasura) king of eqypt and this is exactly what the book talks about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meluhha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharqa
senthil, Anurag, it would be great if you could read this book (Shiva trilogy, immortals of meluha to start with) and throw your view on it. i am sure it would give you some intresting lead.. trust me..
@ Anurag,
I just have to say WOW.. i read your bharata tanta blog and it was great. i have to read it few more times to get up to your speed probably.
i had few quick questions though.
1) Yavana-Khamboja (Greece-Cambodiya) .
You say Khamboja is combodia. But wiki shows Khambhoja somewhere near afghanistan/Tajikistan in its map.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas
Combodia is in south east..please clarify
2) about mleccha.
Wiki says even madras , south india as also mlechha. is that true? Below is from WIki.
/*
Among the tribes termed Mlechcha were Sakas, Hunas, Yavanas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Bahlikas and Rishikas.[13] The Amara-kosa described the Kiratas, Sabaras and Pulindas as the Mleccha-jatis.Rajput, Abhira, Gujars, Indo-Greeks, Scythians,[14] Kushanas,[15]Kalinga and Pandya were also mlecchas.[16][17]
*/
The historical Khamboj – and today’s Khambhoj (ie Cambodia) are not the same. What you can take as a working definition from this is that Khamboj is in the region generally East of Afghanistan.
Yavana is a little more complex. Modern history says Yavana is equal to Greeks. Ionia = Yavana. But there are numerous mentions of Yavanas in the Mahabharata – and their characterizations are vastly different from Greeks.
For instance, Mahabharata mentions the King Of Yavanas, Bhagadatta is an expert elephant-fighter. Bhagadatta’s elephant was named supratik – after one of the eight diggajas, that came out from the kshirsagara manthan. Now, we know that Greeks did know the front side of an elephant from the backside. Modern history is vague about the composition date of the Mahabharata. But is definitely, in my view well before the Greek civilization was born.
My hypothesis is that Bahlika became Balkans; Makedonia is cognate of Magadha and Ionia is a cognate of Yavana.
More on this in a new post that I am working on.
On the mlechcha people –
My hypothesis is that mlechchas were people with two distinct markers.
1. Slavery – All those who were slaves – wanted to enslave others.
Most slave societies did not fight for freedom. Christianity promised its followers that they will become masters – instead of slaves. Same story with Islam. Dual mode societies. When escaped, freed people and slaves, came to India, an open society, these Desert Bloc people carried the virus of slavery. And they tried to use slavery in India. Like Senthil pointed out, Jijabai, Shivaji’s mother was ransomed from slave traders.
These slave traders were called mlechchas – is in my opinion, marker No.1.
2. The second marker was personal habits. Not having a bath daily, tamsik food habits, inability to adjust to the value systems of open society made these peoples into mlechchas.
3. At some point, everyone was mlechcha. Hence descriptions of mlechchas have to be understood with the context of the times. Once a mlechcha did not mean forever a mlechcha.
4. I would hypothesize that Bharattantra was re-established in the North after the shift from Saraswati Basin cities to the Indo-Gangetic plains. You can see many stories in puranas, Ramayana and Mahabharata about this great migration. I would presume that Bharattantra became popular in South India with people like Elango Adigal. Silappadhikaraam is nothing but the story of the establishment of Bharattantra in the South.
Anurag,
South India was dense forest during the times of Ramayana. We could see it from the “Aranya Kaandam” from valmiki ramayana.. Aaranyam means forest. Different names were given to different forest regions in south india.
McKinsey documents says that only after ramayana, people started coming to rameshwaram as a pilgrimage. and later, the three tamil kings established the kingdom. Chola is from surya vamsam, pandyas from chandra vamsam, and cheras from agni vamsam.. Later, the chola king, created a new dhesam called Thondai Dhesam, for his son born out of Daasi. In tamil, a daasi is called Thondachi .. hence the newly created dhesam is called Thondai dhesam. The name of the chola’s son is “Athondan”.. later, he requested people from different regions to settle in his dhesam, by paying them ..
All these details are available in Thondai Mandala Sathagam.. (this is in tamil)
Similarly, Chola Mandala Sathagam, the native history of Chola Dhesam also clearly mentions that Chola came from North, and created a country for himself. In Pandiya Mandala Sathagam, also, it is mentioned that pandyan created pandya dhesam, while coming to rameswara pilgrimage, as the area was beautiful..
All these was logical.. because, as more people started coming pilgrimage to rameswaram, the forest areas was busy with pilgrims. And few kings from kshatriya family, created different dhesams here..
Also, as an additional detail, it was given that Rama after winning ravana, installed siva linga at rameswaram. He then invited guja, and settled a group of his fishermen people there, and gave him the title of Sethupathi. They are called the Maravars.
In my opinion, we have heavily question the rationality of evolutional history established by the westerners. All through out the world, the tribals were always the same, even till today. The chenchu tribes of andhra, the bastar tribes of chatisgarh, the naga tribes of north east, did not evolve, till 1800s. They were following the same life style for thousands of years, in their own environment.
So how does the concept of kingdom and rajyam came? This is where, i propose an hypothesis, that civilization first originated in Northern India. Please note that i am speaking about civilization (NOT origin of mankind)..
Our rishis, evolved the concept of rajyam, and created the four varnas, which later spread to different parts of land establishing their own kingdom.. Out of that, the asuras, followed slave system, whereas the devas followed the bharat tantra. Later, the devas cleared the bharat varsha from the clutches of these asuras, and pushed them outside this region.
What do you say?
The Indian Constitution says one thing – “You’re free to do what you want as long as you don’t hurt anyone else.”
You ask what you can do if you don’t want to live under this rule? It’s like saying you’re free to do what you want but you don’t want that freedom!
You can do any thing as you wish, only when your survival is gauranteed.. sons of rich family, big shots, and other such people can afford that freedom.. Ordinary people cannot afford that..
It is in western kind of society, where the nobles (the masters or higher caste), had every resources, to do what they want.. the slaves did not have any kind of freedom..
The same is being employed here.. just ask the toilet cleaners of your office, why they are dong that work.. they dont do that work out of freedom, but out of economic slavery..
I have not studied or given any thought to the origin of Chola is from surya vamsam, pandyas from chandra vamsam, and cheras from agni vamsam. Hence, I will abstain on this.
What you are saying is a good working hypothesis for me. Do I have any thoughts on this? No.
Anurag,
There were 56 ancient dhesams in bharata varsha.. if we study the history of these dhesams, we could decode much of our history.. There should be some kind of literature or documents available in the local language.. probably you can start with your own dhesam, which you may find out..
The whole essay and the subsequent proceedings centre on an ancient society Today we live in a different society. No one cares how an orthodox brahmin wants to live his wife in his house now. He can shun anyone he wants to in order to keep his acharams unpolluted. But once he steps out of his house, he cant behave as he wants. He has to abide by the norms imposed by general society. But in the ancient society, he lived as he wanted even outside his community or house. That was because the brahmins were powerful then; or able to brainwash people to believe that they enjoy some sort of divine superiority and to allow them their acharams is to worship God; although they were dissenters then too.
Today is not yesterday. Stop living in the past. The varnashradharma is outdated long ago. The ancient variety of Hindu religion, or whatever you call it, has gone out. The call to revive that by Chandrasekara saraswati of Kanchi peetam was not heeded even by his followers, the Tamil Iyers.
When there are no followers, how can there be an ism? Caste conflicts of today are not based on varnams etc. They are quarrels for the spoils, or services, or economic and social opportunities. Dalits are asking for their rights; and many don’t even ask for them; they want to pluck. So, the powerful (power comes from money and political power) castes prevent them. Hence conflicts which we call caste conflicts. When majority of dalits become owners, manufacturers, employers, rulers, the whole social scenario will turn in their favor.
To discuss the hoary past is to take drugs and enjoy dreaming. The past and discourses about it are like drugs. Time to avoid them !
Whether varnashrama dharma is dead or NOT doesnt matter.. my attempt is to understand it as it is, and NOT through established propoganda lies.. so you need not worry about reviving it..
/** But once he steps out of his house, he cant behave as he wants. He has to abide by the norms imposed by general society.
**/
Who is that general society?? and who imposes?
I think, you are imagining a homogenous society.. there is no such thing even in urban centres.. The slum people live separately and the rich separately..
In our society, every jathi had their own settlements.. the brahmins had their agraharam, where they could have an environment conducive to their acharams.. Today, the agraharam is encroached, and forcefully dismantled.. and there the clashes start.. the problem is NOT with brahmins, but with ideological vultures..
My friend asked the same question to me.. street is a public place, and how can brahmins prevent others.. i replied him as “Even the street before your house is public place… i will come and piss before your house, and will you allow me”.. his answer was “I will kick you”.. and i told, “the brahmins did not kick like you, but only prevented non-violently..”
The reality is that every jathi had their own ecosystem, that completes their life cycle.. In the case of dalits, they lived in colonies, along with their relations.. they had public place in their colony to conduct family functions.. they had their own wells.. they had their own temple, and the temple festival.. they had everything.. Today, they became economic slaves, when you people started dismantling villages, and colonised its lands.. Today, the dalits in towns dont have any public places.. once surrounded by forests and open fields, today, became high rise buildings, which made them slum dwellers.. and YET, people like you come and eulogise urbanisation and its imagined equality..
The brahmins were powerful.. Powerful NOT in money or political.. powerful only by virtue of their life style.. the political power remained with kshatriyas, and the money power remained with vaishyas.. the balance got collapsed, only when both are combined, when East India Company invaded kingdoms… and till today, the political power rests with Corporates (traders & business people), and they enslaved every section of the society..
The equality is obtained now.. the equality of SLAVES.. and you can all rejoice..
//**The equality is obtained now.. the equality of SLAVES.. and you can all rejoice.**//
A rejoicing slave makes such comments…What irony !! LOL…An outcaste who is not even a shudra but a rat-eating panchama can talk like this only in south india. Surely we are living in Kaliyuga where even a panchama can talk about shastras…no wonder these are bad times for brahmins. Even if brahmins want to change, the omniscient panchamas won’t let them change. God save everyone.
what is this rat-eating panchama that you keep mentioning everywhere and how come senthil is panchama???
/** When majority of dalits become owners, manufacturers, employers, rulers, the whole social scenario will turn in their favor.
**/
and dalits can oppress, suppress and exploit the upper caste, and you all will be happy.. that is what your hypothesis is..
Your logic is fundamentally flawed ..
Dalit is Neither a race, NOR a community.. its an artificial identity.. Suppose, if all industrial workers are classified as dalits, and all industry owners & managers as upper caste, and you apply your logic.. how absurd it is.. the same way it is absurd when applied to the society.. you are dreaming of a communist peasant revolt..
I read this essay as a child and found it being practised by Abrahamic systems.
http://mission.akshaya.net/dpi/Textbook/Languages/English/chapter5.PDF
A G Gardiner says in the essay ” Everybody will get into everybody else’s way and nobody will get anywhere. Individual liberty will lead to social anarchy”
Thats precisely what varnashrama avoided. By fitting one’s liberties within a dharmic framework, varnasharama ensured enough liberty for the individual but never so that it interfered with social harmony.
Now we have rakshasas passing off their unhinged materialism as individual liberty. But all rules are for the other. Never for oneself. Every fratricidal group keeps shouting for its own interests such that society suffers as a whole.
The need to study and understand varnashrama is so that we can reinstate dharma based society (in what ever appropriate form for this age) which will enable this nation to take care of its people instead of fattening the bank balance(Preferably Swiss) of the looters. These looters now control every arm of the state, legislature, executive, judiciary, media and NGOs , especially the latter two.
Here is an extract from a translation of the writings of Alberuni, one of the earliest Muslims (circa (923 CE) to observe Sanatana Dharma and Varnashrama before it got destroyed by the Muslim and Christian invaders.
==============================
Hindu caste system:
—————————
No discussion of India would be complete without observation on the contemporary caste system and rightly so Alberuni does miss it. He describes the traditional division of Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja — who are not reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from each other, they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided into eight classes — formed into guilds — according to their professions who freely intermarry with each other except with the fuller, shoemaker and the weaver. They live near the villages and towns of the four castes but outside of them. (Sachau:101)
On the eating customs of the four castes, he observed that when eating together, they form a group of their own caste, one group not comprising a member of another caste. Each person must have his own food for himself and it is not allowed to eat the remains of the meal. They don’t share food from the same plate as that which remains in the plate becomes after the first eater has taken part, the remains of the meal. (Sachau:102)
Alberuni wrote extensively on India and on many aspects. It is impossible to cover every topic in a rather small article but I have tried to give some of the points which would look strange or were not known to the Muslims.
=============================
This from some one who whilst knowledgable was no great fan of the Vedic way.
thanks suresh.. do you have any online reference for the entire alberuni article?
Hi Senthil,
Its extracted/referenced from these books,
Sachau E. C., trans.’ Alberuni’s India’ . New Delhi: Low Price Publications, 1993.
Elliot and Dowson. ‘The History of India as told by its own historians.’ New Delhi: Low Price Publications, 1996, vol. II.
Not sure if there is an online reference.But if i find one will certainly link up.
According to me,” Varnashrama Dharma system was an attempt to create a perfect society”. And our society did come to perfection. That’s why we had harmony between all Varna. And each Varna had excellent achievements, Ex.1. Brahmins- invention of 0 & indian numerical, Plastic Surgery, Yoga , Aryuveda , and 1000s of scriptures , 2. Kshatriya- who defended Motherland India for so longest time compare to other civilizations which got vanished so fast ,4. Shudra- hindu temple carvings, iron pillar of delhi 3. Vaishya-( I do not know much about)……With Harmony and progress, we also had everyone’s need satisfied…ex. no Hunger, Poverty ….This is just my hypothesis. If anyone want to add more supportive arguments to my hypothesis, please do so.
True.. but we cannot evaluate it from present day established christian morality..
U shd hav written: If anyone want to deny this, please do so.
ok.
Assuming u hav done, let me say that varnasharadharma was originally created for a society of thin and less population in villages. When towns and cities came to b created this dharma travelled there as a natural continuum.
In such a small society, u know who’s who. Further, the occupations became traditional and that made ppl to learn right from their childhood only to be fit for their chosen occupation. Occupations have thus become hereditary. Whether one was naturally inclined to his hereditary occupation or not, one cd never know. Even if he did, he could not qn it as the social hierarchy had become frozen.
No doubt only those who were assigned the occupation of reading, writing, speculating, will create intellectual things; ditto for other levels too i.e they do better in their professions. In view of this, we go to respective level to find the achievers therein only. Society accepted all w/o questioning anything as Indian society did not like questioners.
Now, every thing changes. We have not only towns, villages, cities, metros and megapoliss, but also urbanised villages. No profession is hereditary today. No one is forced to step in his father’s shoes. For e.g even a poor brahmin priest in TN wants to go to a good job acquiring skills for that. In North India, during colonial times onwards, the Brahmins became soldiers and now officers. Our country had had many many military officers and multitude of brahmin sepoys. The sepoy who started the Mutiny in 1857 against the British army was a brahmin by name Mangal Pandey. All incumbent Chiefs of Armed forces are brahmins now.
Similarly everywhere in India, ppl aim for lucrative professions w/o caring for their ancient hereditary jobs. In short, the varnashradharma has become an archival item in the terminology of religion. It does not exist today. This death was not caused by westerners, or muslims, or Christians; but by Hindus themselves.
By Hindus themselves because of the intervention of westerners.
It’s like you are a soft guy and I zone to ur house and abuse you and u turn harsh. Tomorrow someone looks at you and says that you are harsh because u turned harsh and it’s not bcos swami came and abused mr contrarian..
Also your statement that indian society didn’t like questioners is wrong. FYI this is the only society that allowed questioning. We had charvakars and this is the land where there is nothing called blasphemy. No guru was ever crucified here. Even when budha himselves spoke against the Vedas sometimes.
Sad that ur ignorance on this topic is still with u. May this Christmas bless u with the highest heavens.
Swami’s rejoinder has just two points:
1. The rejection of varnashradharma is not due to its redundancy in our time; but due to the contact with westerners. He thus means that if there were no advent of westerners in India, Indians wd have continued the same dharma dividing ppl based on births or occupations.
2. Indian society always welcomed questioners. He means varnashradharam was not questioned even if there was complete freedom for questioners available. He thus implies the dharma is valid always in Indian society.
Except the above 2 points, all other things he wrote are irrelevant to the debate. But he does it just to derive some malicious glee in poking fun at me like school children do with their mates Let me not be a killjoy for him.
Ok. Coming to no.1, I accept it that the contact with a different culture will have impact, as we see even today. The satellite TV and internet have brought cultures together. A culture which has a lot of fun and little of things like spirituality will attract the youth; and the adults. It is unavoidable. To avoid it, that is to say, to insulate Hindu culture from others, we must put an iron curtain to prevent all contact with outside world. By keeping ppl in ignorance, we can make them feel that the culture they live in or have inherited is the one and only culture that is worth having.
But I think it is impossible to draw an iron curtain.
On point no.2, we can say the Hindu society is liberal and in such a liberal society, there could have been many who wd have questioned varnashradharma. No one questioned it, as we understand from Swami So, the varnashradharma of dalits doing dirty work and others not, is acceptable or has been acceptable to the whole society.
Swami misses my point here. That is, the dharama was ok in previous times. Is it ok now? Leaving aside foreign contact, will our present society of 80 million ppl living close together fighting for basic necessities stick to their varnas and the assigned occupations, never mind whether it is lucrative or poorly paid. Who will be a priest? None. No coolie wants his son to follow in his steps. He wants him to study English, go to college and become a professional to earn handsomely. Only businessmen who have built an empire of money will want to pass the empire to his heir; and the heir wd have been groomed to enjoy the same luxury and respect as his father did.
Instead of saying varnashradharma is dead and buried or cremated for ever, let me say it is impossible to make it survive today. Whatever you say in its favor, and whatever you hold as its great attractions, there will be no taker at all. And, you are left alone on an empty stage speaking in an empty hall !
@Contrarian,
1. The debate is NOT about reviving varnashrama dharma.. it would be a separate topic.. so the real issue is about fighting against false propoganda, and distorted meaning of varnashrama dharma.. you yourself had categorically stated that varnashrama dharma oppressed people, and i am just countering that.
2. Varna dharma was existent in different forms till liberalisation of 1990s. The fact is that we are imposed an alien kind of totalatarian administrative system, and an backstabbing alien political system. The british first built this system to just keep india under control, and later the bunch of fools (Nehru, gandhi, patel etc), used it as defacto non-negotiable, enslaving and unchangeable system. For all these years, this british colonial beurocracy preyed upon native system dismantling each and every local administrative setup. They created westernised urban cities, and pushed people from rural in to western cities. Till 1990s, the ration of urban vs rural was 20:80, and hence the 80% rural people were able to bear and withstand the exploitation of 20% urban people. After globalisation and liberalisation, the urban population increased to 35%, as of now, and everyone is seeing the impact.
You can continue your oppression and suppression propoganda, and one day, when society gets broken down, you will be able to realise the reality. It will soon occur in another 10-20 years.
3. I think, budhism was the first one to come against varna setup, and collapsed it. Few centuries later, it easily fell to invading muslims. So the varna dharma was challenged at different times. It survived, because of its inherent strength, and self-organising character.
/** will our present society of 80 million ppl living close together fighting for basic necessities stick to their varnas and the assigned occupations, never mind whether it is lucrative or poorly paid.
**/
For your info, the bulk of rural people, do not receive any support from government, NOR any jobs created for them. They have been surviving on their own, and because they all stick to their kula occupations. And people from urban centers had colonised these rural people, manipulated currencies, and pushed them to poverty.
It is people like you, who is responsible for the poverty of rural india, and NOT varna or jathi.. YET you proclaim yourself as liberators and saviours.. the typical act of perperterators masquerading as saviours..
/** Who will be a priest? None. No coolie wants his son to follow in his steps. He wants him to study English, go to college and become a professional to earn handsomely. Only businessmen who have built an empire of money will want to pass the empire to his heir; and the heir wd have been groomed to enjoy the same luxury and respect as his father did.
**/
It needs to be analysed why such situation exists..
A priest is just paid a monthly salary of 500rs .. or at the most few thousand rupees in big temples.. who is responsible? the government
the labour in village economy had a participatory and sharing setup. They shared the produce during harvest.. This was changed in to european type of slave economy, and their labour is converted in to market commodity, .. as a result, they degraded in to economic slaves from a share holder. Who is responsible? the government..
It is the same government, which dismantled local administrative system, and ingored them diverting most of funds in to westernised urban centers creating luxury centers out of rural people’s blood.. here the exploiters are urban people, and the oppressed people are the entire rural people, irrespective of jathi and varna.. Hence its natural that every oppressed people in rural india, want to migrate to urban centers..
Selfish people evaluate everything just based on selfish gains.. it needs certain level of broad mindedness and pragmatism to understand the issues.. Europe & US are failing, because their societal and economic system are colonising one.. today they have no colonies, and hence they could not sustain any more..
Similarly indian urban centers are same colonial centers.. they will soon fail, when the back of rural society is broken down..
@contrarian
/*Only businessmen who have built an empire of money will want to pass the empire to his heir; and the heir wd have been groomed to enjoy the same luxury and respect as his father did.
*/
From your statement it is clear that at least you understand the fundamentals of life. I.e only when a person’s money and food (survival aspect) are taken care he will dare to give the family business to his heir. This in turn means that, in india, in the past, everyone was wealthier, happier and their survival was well taken care of without any doubt that they dared to give their family job to their heirs. your westerners came and raped this model.
Money, Food are the essentials of any human. These are fundamentals and survival kits. Only when survival is taken care, any human can aspire more.
When a person is not even having food or a decent place to live, food would be the priority for him and even dharma will obviously go to second priority. Which is OK. Current indian situation is such that most people are in poverty and so dharma is pushed far below in our priority. Once the situation changes, we will start looking for advanced and subtle models for stable society.
Why is india poor now? Senthil has replied well about the situation on why a person in india is poor. No more to say on it. Ask your sonia gandhi to bring back all the black money from swiss. Give part of that money to young business man who is spiritually tuned in. He will wisely do business. Give part of the money to enlightened guru’s Ashram (which we have many in india). They will locally do the things that are required like running hospitals and schools. They are any how doing those things. instead of giving the money to missionaries give it to gurus. They will do more efficiently without any descretion or racial seperations.
Again, All you are taking about is survuval. THats why someone in the blog said varnashrama dharma is for matured society. definitely not for today india. It was the best model. Now we need to start aspiring towards it again. Though it cant be implemented tomorrow morning.
/*
thus means that if there were no advent of westerners in India, Indians wd have continued the same dharma dividing ppl based on births or occupations.
*/
varnashrama dharma didnt divide people. but it just classified. if you want to know the difference between division and classification you can check the dictionary.
there is nothing wrong in adapting western concepts in indian lifestyle.. this is not a debate on whether i can wear a shirt or whether i can use computer and internet.
these are the only tools that we have to look at the past. Like you said we cannot turn entire indian society upside down on a night and enfore varnashrama dharma.
using the current tools, we need to first understand what varnashrama dharma is. This is the first step. Once we gain clarity and then confidence, we can slowly migrate from current model to the varnashrama model.
Assuming this generations starts working towards this, it might take 3 to 4 generations to establish the dharma system which would be probably 150 + years.
So all discussion thats happening here is not for you and me but for coming generations.
Dont worry, your so called white collar job is not in jeopardy. Enjoy your LCD TV, iphone and IMAX theaters. Ride your Ferrari car till mother earth decides to give you fuel. Eat pizza till mother earth becomes impotent of growing rice, fruits and vegetables. Cook frozen foods in microwave owen and fix the problems caused by it by paying more health insurance premium. Go to resort for holidays and live a life just “in pursuit of happiness” and not as an “expression of happiness within”.
@senthil,
/*
Similarly indian urban centers are same colonial centers.. they will soon fail, when the back of rural society is broken down..
one day, when society gets broken down, you will be able to realise the reality. It will soon occur in another 10-20 years.
*/
Well said. Though i dont wish this situation to happen, i would still say “Thathasthu”. SO be it. let it happen.
Only when this happens, people will wake up and realize that milk comes from cow and not from walmart/reliance fresh. food comes from farmer and not from grocery shop.
Lot of people in this blog are talking about poverty in india. farmers are the real xaviours of the india. not narayanamurthy.
The government should ideally give the lands to farmers and they should sell the products themselves without any intermediate person. If they wont do that, atleast they should do the below.
What if governement decides to give Rs 30000 per month salary for farmers? How many of the children in farming community who are currently aspiring for engineering will want to continue engineering? Farming skills and knowledge are in their blood and they can easily catch up in that activity and also earn money equal to that of a software engineer. The government should just provide the basic education on physics, maths, ethics, culture, spirituality and yoga. In this scenario no farmer would want his son to go and study engineering or doctor. why waste time money and effort to learn something totally new?? Even if someone learns there will always be a delay in the learning curve to reach the excellence level befor which we would have killed few or depleted the resources in earth in the name of research or engineering..
so the fault is on the governemt and not on the varnashrama dharma in making people poor. Its the government who is making rich richer and poor poorer. its the government who is not providing the basic aminitites to the poor.
I am asking an open question to any SC/ST/BC/OBC in this blog. If 3 generations of your family has finiancialy and socialy come up to a decent level both in education and profession, would you dare to give up your BC status and become FC in india? Would you give the oppurtunity for education and profession to an auto driver’s son or daughter so that his family would come up just like your family did? What a shame, people give bribes and get certificates that they are SC/SCT when they are OBC, they get converted to OBC when they are BC. What a shame. Let people be haman enough to give up their status and give oppurtunity to others before they comment on varnashrama dharma.
Senthil like you recommended brahmins to call themselves ex brahmins, i would say that BCs should call them FCs once they have reached certain status in the society and give the oppurtunity for other real BCs to grow. “Reservation System” itself is not an issue. But people holding their status to get more benifits is the issue. such people have no rights to even utter the word dharma. such fylthy people cant even think broad about dharma.
@swamy,
/** Only when this happens, people will wake up and realize that milk comes from cow and not from walmart/reliance fresh. food comes from farmer and not from grocery shop.
**/
Excellent!! u had best explained what i intended to say.
/** What if governement decides to give Rs 30000 per month salary for farmers? How many of the children in farming community who are currently aspiring for engineering will want to continue engineering?
**/
I spoke to my grandfather about the state of farming.. he said, till 1960s, a farmer can buy a gold by selling 3 bags of paddy.. and you could calculate how many bags of paddy needs to buy gold.. The culprit is the flat currency, which is just a paper that government prints as it wishes.. which helps it to manipulate the economy.. (gold cannot be produced as one wishes..)
This hymn from the Rig Veda (9.112.3) seems to indicate that one’s Varna is not necessarily determined by that of one’s family: “I am a bard, my father is a physician, and my mother’s job is to grind the corn.”
that hymn was sung by rishis.. there is no varna for rishi and rishivardhinis.. and vedas dont define varna… its only smritis who define varna..
To quote an analogy, in a new startup company, everyone would be doing everything.. bcoz its small.. but when it grows big, then there is a need for departments, and divisions of work.. and in such big companies, one set of people is not allowed to do other man’s work..
for eg, in the s/w company i worked, i have to just do the work given to me, and i cant even make any new software installs in my company.. Only Network engineers should do it.. if i do it myself i am being prosecuted by company for violating their rules..
This corporate setup is an authority based setup..
On the other hand, varna is a decentralised, layered classification.. note my point.. varna is layered, and not authoratarian.. u know the difference b/w two.. in corporate companies, the setup is hierarchial authoratarian setup with executive powers to those who hold the post.. in varna its not like that..
Rishis lived in forest, a secluded life, seeking gyan.. they existed as family, and hence they have to share work within the family.. that cannot be a benchmark for the society..
Please realise that you are in self-denial mode, and thats why you are seeking some reason or quotes to deny.. pls come out of this mindset.. we need not answer to any one.. we are just understanding things as it is..
Sorry whats a Bard?
Also what is the Political Climate as well as Social Climate in India
And what are the biggest Indian and Non Indian Corporations/Business etc in India that deal in say Everyday Stuff, Electrical, Bedding all basic and other needs
Example Walmart is an American Company do you have an Indian company that does similar
In Australia we have Harvey Norman which deal in Electrical, Home Entertainment, Appliances, Bedding and Furniture
Coles and Woolworths are Australias biggest Supermarkets and they have shares in other Markets like Alchool, Electronics etc.
Do you have problems with big Buisness trying to take over and squash the Little Man and his or hers Business
A smritis, or code of conduct composed by sage Atri defines brahminhood very clearly.
“By birth, every man is a Shudra (an ignorant person). Through various types of disciplines (samskaras), he becomes a dwija (twice born). Through the studies of scriptures, he becomes a vipra (or a scholar). Through realization of supreme spirit (brahmajnana), he becomes a brahmin.”
Janmana jayte shudraha ! sanskaran dwij uchyate
vedpathi bhaved vipraha ! brahma janati brahmanaha.
Scriptures says a person can become a Brahmin by Samskars, Chandragupta was a Sudra who turned a Kashtriya by the teachings of his Guru Chanakya Pandit.
Even manusmriti says so.. but this doesnt mean, any one can study vedas.. it says, that a child born to a brahmin is also a shudra, and he can attain brahman hood only after completing vedic scriptures, and initiation.. those brahmin child who do not do this, remains as shudra for the rest..
something positive on manusmriti..a sea of change..and also, aryans were brahmans and kashtriyas..those who belonged to polity..aristocracy…the other two were un aryans who were busy in doing labor/capital work..they were supposed to pay taxes for their own welfare…none of the aryans possessed any assets,etc…this was the reason that they were declared as supreme as their cause was bigger and not narrower..but now the citizens of our nation has turned against it’s own land..we all will soon reach mueseum
There should be more research on word, “Aryan”. In vedas, Aryan is just adjective, to describe good person. However, now it has became racial term. Some says, Aryan was name of one of Indo-Iranian tribe. In that case, European should stop calling themselves Aryan.
Unless that European person is a good person other wise your right its the Neo Nazis who call them selves Aryan because of Hitler alo there is a American Prison Gang called the Aryan Brotherhood which is a Racist Prison Gang that has Whites only.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Social_groups_of_Gujarat
I found this link on wikipedia. Here different jatis under each varna has been listed. Also, all the information, relating to their history, customs, tradition jobs, etc. are provided. I studied few of them. Clearly, with this, it can be established our varna and jati system was not at all oppresive. But a system, where each jati had its job to perform in a society and they were interdependent on each other.
Yes.. we have solid documentary evidence that even shudras took up sati, when their leader died.. the perception of varnashrama dharma has to change, no matter whether we follow it today or not..
the urban hindus have to come out of the colonial perception of our history
It is only your blog, who is trying to break colonial perception of our caste system. Your blog has provided fresh air to rotten history, propagated by colonial power. I love your blog, my favourite topics that you have covered are caste system and conversion. Great job and keep it up. Because of your blog, I have started studying gujarat’s jati communities very closely. It has made me curious, of finding in detail about how our society was structured. Before, whenever any caste related question comes up, I always use to see it with disgust and ignore it. 2ndlook blog and your blog, are amazing at decolonizing our history.
Thanks a lot @pinky.. I am planning more articles in future, on jathi setup at various regions, having a similar societal setup.
I am happy, that you started looking at gujarat jathis with open mind.. When interacting with other jathi persons, Please always ask more about the kula devata, their rituals, and their gothras, which will fetch you a lot of information..
i had tried this with SC communities, and found that they feel proud to describe the social functions.. Clearly they dont want to be tagged as SC, while it is the government which enforces this identity on them.