In any debate on caste, people instantly resort to the argument, “Caste discriminates based on birth”. And this logic concludes as “Because caste is based on birth, it has to be destroyed”. And this recent tweet by Subramanya swamy is a classical example of this.
The hatred on caste has become an ideology, that any counter thought has been nailed in the bud. Just by mentioning the word “birth-based”, one can make person spit venom on caste system, suspending all kind of meaningful discussion. I call it as Birth Based hysteria..
I was perplexed with such mindless argument a number of times. On further analysing this trend, i found a number of factors, as root cause for this birth-based hysteria. I intend to break this intellectual enslavement, through this post and if possible, a series of posts.
The people behind:
If we look at the people who progates this “birth-based hysteria”, we come across the following categories.
- The anglo-dubashi brahmins (NOT the traditional brahmins), who were the first to get english education, took to westernised urban life-style and got isolated from traditional society. Their off-springs naturally take that line. These people carry over, every british created propoganda, without any question. For them, british gave us lot of good things, and hence we should be thankful to them.
- People educated in English medium, took to corporate jobs, and settles in urban centers like Metros (which i call as Urban Ghettos).
- Idelogically aligned persons. Mainly those subscribing to the Communists, the Dravida Movement.
- The Christian Missionaries, who are the first to start this propoganda and source of all anti-caste literature.
- The Hindutva (RSS, VHP and all their wings) , who wanted to unite the hindu society, on the model of western institutions.
- Hindu Intellectuals, both in india and abroad, who had been occupying key positions in various institutions.
- People who claim as liberal, atheists and secular. This group contains people from all the above categories, often colluding with one another.
I might have missed other type of people. Please point out in the comment section, if the readers find any.
Every group has their own reason for taking this anti-caste stand. But there is a common factor found in these these groups. They are all uprooted from traditional society for various reason, and got settled in urban centers both during the british period, and after independance. They are dis-connected from villages, read about the caste-system and rural society, based on official british literature, and then form their opinion.
It is these groups, who often resort to the birth-based argument and project that caste system forced people to remain in particular profession for thousands of years, and discriminate people based on birth.
But what does the actual people in rural india, belonging to traditional societies say about the jaathi? These people still do their jaathi profession, based on birth. The farmers, the barbers, the cobblers, the blacksmith, the brahmins all continue their traditional profession, and that’s how the rural economy runs through. Do all they complain that jaathi was birth based? They would ridicule you, if you say this to them.
Few years back, I was surprised when a dalit worker while working in our fields said to me, “Who will look after this village, when all have studied and move to cities?”. I will write more on this in separate article.
The reality:
The people who oppose birth-based are those who are just employees in a corporate concern. I call them as Corporate Coolies. They dont own their job, and are just mercenaries, in contract for particular job. Their family (wife & children) have no role in their work, and hence become idle, taking up what ever they like. Having been accustomed to this life style, these people develop a negative mindset, that the jaathi based profession, where son take over his father’s profession, is an oppression that is against free will. Because of corporate life sytle, they become highly individualised, and have no rooted society/community to rely on. Their life becomes fixated.. ie, to work in company for five/six days in a week, rest on weekends, and then again start to work. An annual holiday of one or two weeks, will give them a break, after which they again start their routine work. and when the corporate company performs poorly, they would be fired, to save costs.
Being uprooted from the society, they dont have any other options. So as for their children.
Whereas, look at those birth based jaathis of our traditional societies. The whole community is involved in the profession. And the entire family works in that same profession (Wife, children). No layoffs. When there is less business, the community shares the opportunity, and so as when there is more business, it is also shared. The person who becomes more successful in the profession, leads the community, helping those not-so talented.
In Short, an entire community owns that profession. There is a collective entrepreneurship and a collective ownership. And there is a culture, based on their profession, and a temple for their community.
Some successful examples to show are: Marwaris, chamars of UP, Ramgadiyas of Rajasthan, Nadars of tamilnadu. All developed through birth based community profession. ie, son took over father’s profession and further improves it. This is the indic model, which we had for thousands of years.
Whereas look at the present corporate model. A single person own large enterprises. Workers are just individual, and not related to business. The wages are fixed on market value and NOT on survivability. There is no social support for the worker. And importantly, there is no family involvement. ie, the company treats the worker as an individual and never cares about the family. The son/daughter of the worker cannot take over the father’s job, and they have to search for new one.
Let’s leave the jaathis. Look at those enterprising families today. Doctors running their own hospital, a trader having his own shop, a businessmen running his company, an industrialist running his factory. They all own an enterprise, which they want their sons or daughters to take forward. And no one complains these birth-based inheritance.
So what do you think about this birth-based profession? Should we still continue with the tirade against jaathi? Can we come out of the british/missionary created propoganda?
Well Said Senthil…
There are certain words, those endure high level of hatred and discrimination in India…Caste, religion, Jaathi… few words are increasingly added to this section by today’s folk.
I prefer to call the Jaathi or Caste as “professional communities of native people”. The are naturally evolved.
Now you shall link this to your article… the migrants will not have such native professional feeling and to be called as a Jaathi, because it is not evolved.It is conditional and circumstantial. They tend to form an association irrespective of the traditional castes. It is an urban migrants culture. Simply, a nomad culture. Those people’s bondage won’t last for long as it is an instant arrangement. It is not evolved like in the professional communities of the traditional system. It may took couple of generations to forget, as a migrant.But before that the present urban migrant culture will collapse and the people will embrace their respective system.
you are right yuva.. rootedness is the key factor in social and economic stability..
Very interesting, and very well said indeed. Original in the sense that you are thinking and observing for yourself, cutting off all propaganda and entrenched propaganda at that.
thanks a lot sandhya ji.. i have thought about this for long, and strived very hard to get the clarity, by mainly observing things from my surroundings.. the first and foremost criteria i set for myself is to reject all pre-existing materials and look from fresh perspective..
good & thought provoking subject. the propaganda should have less (still less) anger on the face.
what started all this is from the anger the oppressed people had shown on their expoitation. It is an undeniable fact that in the name of caste untold social injustice is done to these people by the upper caste . However, we have come to replace one evil with another. Instead of eradicating the social injustice and create a hormonious society , we have gone ahead and exacted revenge on the upper caste people.
The conflict is thus. Should we have a system which classifies a person’s “jaathi” based on their profession then we will have a brahmin son as Vysya or vice versa. Good indeed.
In my personal opinion, we should leave the choice of profession and the caste to individual. Let them choose like they choose religion. Of course, that can work only if we do not have any concession given to anyone in the society except based on common parameters like economic or geographic.
Raveendran,
What you have written is a typical propoganda currently being propogated.. Please tell me what do you mean by social justice? what do you mean by harmonious society?
/** Should we have a system which classifies a person’s “jaathi” based on their profession **/
Please tell me who exactly classifies the person? Is it not the British who first started classifying people, and issuing community certificate? There is no such centralised classification in pre-british india..
Why should you blame the jaathi for the evil act done by government?
/** we should leave the choice of profession and the caste to individual. Let them choose like they choose religion.**/
This is what i call as manipulated or subverted opinion? This is just like telling, “We should leave it to the individual to choose the parent.. kulam/gothram is decided by birth, as the children acquires the kulam of their parent.. what you are saying is illogical..
/** It is an undeniable fact that in the name of caste untold social injustice is done to these people by the upper caste
**/
Can you please list down the upper caste, and the so called injustice done by them? We will deal case by case..
Thanks Senthil for highlighting the real inner meaning of Jaathis. I don’t know how far there will be a negative propaganda about jaathis in our country. In fact inspite of following their jathis our ancestors were clear that there was no restriction in attaining the moksha or GOD. Varnashrama is termed as a Dharma in our culture. The very word Dharma – in the current context nobdody will be able to provide a direct meaning. Best wishes from me for boldly writing your views in your blog.
we should leave the choice of profession and the caste to individual. Let them choose like they choose religion. Of course, that can work only if we do not have any concession given to anyone in the society except based on common parameters like economic or geographic.//////
@Reveendran
Geographic parameters will always decide the economic status, which is again based on the professional communities of that Soil. Soil decides the character of the people. Thatswhy we have have biodiversity in India from Soil, Climate and people and different school of thoughts.
Lets look at economic success. World over clusters are seen as aiding economic progress. Silicon Valley is a good example. How ever when a boom/bust cycle hits economies , the clusters tend to lay waste many talented people. The social net is missing(limited financial security through doles does not provide social net). Jaathis provide the best of both – a cluster where knowledge is institutionalised, a safety net for downturns with an option to switch professions if progeny want to.
This is the great strength of ancient trading communities like the Marwaris and Chettiars. The entire Malaysian Chinese business community took over the rich ecosystem created by Chettiars at the end of WWII and built it up.This is acknowledged by the Ethnic Chinese in Malaysia themselves (I heard it firsthand).
This sense of belonging is absent in urban economies as you pointed out, but also because the anglo-saxon world is based on antagonism and individualism. For instance its the job of the state to extract tax; its the job of individuals to use every loophole not to pay it – this is why there are hordes of CAs and lawyers and why these professions are exalted.
When this individualistic and antagonistic anglo-saxon system clashes with the ‘co-opitiive’ ethos of Vedic philosophy the ‘hate points’ are provided by ‘caste’. Jaathi becomes rigid and antagonistic and the whole system becomes agitated.
reverting to jaathis and their inherent flexibility is the first step to organic co-opetition.Of course like any movement the “british brahmins” the “fai Indians” consisting of leftists and rootless Brahmin Dubashis will resist with all their might. So this fight is not for a day or even a decade but a life time of dedication so our children may inherit the true legacy of our ancestors.
Thanks suresh.. excellent reply from you.. the fight has not even begun.. i am just making a small attempt to question established notions.. will atleast the hindu intellectuals listen?
very unlikely. By the time a person is 20-22 years his/her thinking is already moulded into clerical thinking. This is what the current Indian learning system does. Conversely most successful entrepreneurs tend to be intuitively unlearned. Yet there is a general disgust at people who make money. Even though “artha” is one of the four purushartha fundamental to a householder (grihastha). Critical thinking comes from having courage of conviction. It might be worthwhile for people to read Nassim Nicholas Taleb to understand why merely because “experts” say something its not necessarily ‘correct”. A combination of slave/clerical learning and massive ego produces the N Ram effect. A formidable intellect in the service of anti Indian ideas. The solution is to try and change the education system first. All battles have to be won in the mind first before winning it on the ground.
One more link which might be useful to know where we are headed if we follow our erstwhile colonial masters. Of particular note are the comments. No prizes for mistaking the article for something that happens in India.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/british-rioters-the-spawn-of-a-bankrupt-ruling-elite/story-e6frg6zo-1226112640970
A very interesting topic and an excellent observation by Senthil of what actually was and is in terms of jathi/kulam, etc. The jathi – occupation binding was originally not based on birth, but in due course of evolution it became so. For example, if a family is involved in a certain trade for a few generations they become masters in the trade. Since these occupations were undertaken by entire families (all members), they also wish to marry from and into families with similar occupations, as it makes social and economic sense besides delivering quality. This tendency is also contemporary – politicians want their progeny to be politicians, film actors want film actors and so on. Adjusted to the present-day aspirations and ideas, this system is actually the optimal socialist system with the most welfare cover for all individuals.
Dear George, I think the statement of “The jathi – occupation binding was originally not based on birth,” is not supported by history. In the Vedic texts you never find, with a few laudable exceptions, that a caste was not based on birth.
Birth is not something haphazard – there is a reason for taking birth in a certain family. And one should fulfil this task. Niyatam kuru karma tvam – do you alloted duty, says Bhagavad Gita.
Sorry Shaas,
But this sentence does not make a sense at all. And the use of Bhagwada Gita quote in context is totally incorrect.
Dear George,
/** The jathi – occupation binding was originally not based on birth, but in due course of evolution it became so
**/
I still see this as an aversion to the concept of birth based profession.. I would like to ask this question.. who first taught the profession to the family/community?
/** For example, if a family is involved in a certain trade for a few generations they become masters in the trade.
**/
In few generations, a single family would have multiplied in to a community..
For new settlements in a new place, for example, people start off in new professions to fill in what the society calls for, discarding their previous ancestral professions. This is a natural process and nothing to do with any aversion to the ancestral or birth-based inclinations. Of course, it is a sacrifice to deviate from your kula-profession, but this happens all the time. One also finds though rarely communities or castes without any kula-profession, who used to engage in different professions. You are right about the family becoming a community – that is how a professional caste is formed in a new settlement.
Sir.. this may be partially right.. i will explain these aspects in separate post.. as per my research based on my own community, the jaathis are permanent for atleast thousands of years.. the various professions, in my view are NOT evolved.. but systematically created by our rishis, and taught to the respective jaathis.. for eg, please take the case of agriculture, and the technology it has (like astronomy based planting, weeding, irrigation techniques, and different varieties of each crop etc)
Senthil, this is incorrect, have you heard of a word “innovation”. In Ancient India, innovation used to happen.
@ashish,
How is innovation related to jaathi?
Dhanyavaad for your excellent article and for coining the expression “birth based hysteria”. The sooner we cure the hysteria, the better!
I love your post. Many modern problems are being attributed to the Varnaashrama system to cover the inability of politicians and other dignitaries. There are many even poorer countries than India that have not castes in the Vedic sense. On the opposite, caste system has protected Indian Culture over milleniums against invadors and occupants. It is a systematic order of social life. No unemployment, always enjoying a social net of one’s own group. And it is a very natural system acc. to the proverb “birds of the same feather flock together”. Even in the West one can see this phenomenon. Siblings are inclined to take over the family business or profession. They learn their job and the love of it from very early age. They are much more proficient than someone who decides with 16 or 20 yrs. what he wants to work in life. Such a system is ridiculous and inefficient. Moreover, people choose their profession on the basis of how much they can earn instead of how much they are genetically predestined for it.
thanks shaas.. there is heavy corruption of the concept of varnaashrama dharma and no hindu intellectuals have taken any effort to understand it.. i will write a separate post on it soon.. jaathi is a practical system which recognises profession is part of life, and that learning doesnt happen just in schools and colleges.. if you see today’s youth, they are unable to survive after completing +2, and remain unskilled after completing degree..
A dog could enter temples but people of certain castes – all Hindus – were denied same only because of their caste! Why?
dogs are NOT allowed inside temples for the reason obvious.. today temples are controlled by government, and not managed properly.. hence dogs and pigs also can enter.. but that is not to be related with the caste issue you are raising
Came 2 u courtesy X123′s tweet.https://twitter.com/#!/x123_.
I would like 2 see u develop your theses. I would try to not dismiss critiques of “rootedness” and “community”.
Incidentally, the Korean chaebol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaebol appears 2 be a similar community structure.
My theory about class system is that it is the equivalent of honey-bee system. 1) Humans were genetically engineered by a higher species. 2. The genetic construction of different categories of humans was different – in terms of mental & physical strength,and other skills etc, so that different functions of society were performed by specific categories of humans. 3. It was a practical arrangement for highest efficiency & productivity. Something like the honey-bees have. Hence the class system.Nothing good or bad about it.
Theorists who say that the universe has intelligent life on other planets believe that different categories of aliens are also genetically engineered to perform specific categories of work for highest productivity.
Dear Neeta,
The problem with today’s hindu intellectuals is that they attempt to theorize based on what they are reading in books.. my only request to you: Please try to know how the rural society functions. if you know any one from rural areas, (whether its SC or higher caste), try to know facts from them without any emotions.. you will learn a lot..
So much motivated or ignorant trash has been written about “Caste in Hinduism” over the last couple or more centuries. It is good to unearth from primary sources what Jati and Kula meant to Hindu society prior to the Islamic onslaught and rule and then form opinions on how they developed and became rigid over the centuries. It should be recognized, in debates on “caste” and the need to “exterminate” it, that human values have kept changing over the centuries. Components of “human rights”, “dignity of the individual”, “equality of opportunity in society”, etc not to mention concepts such as “reduction of huge disparity in wealth and income”, and the like, have also been changing rapidly over the past few generations. One should avoid the mistake of applying today’s social values to evaluate and judge how society organized itself several centuries back. At the same time one should recognize that society and social mores keep changing all the time. Support for or opposition to “Caste” and its “inequities” should keep this mind.
thanks venkatanarayanan sir..
“The word caste is not a word that is indigenous to India. It originates in the Portuguese word casta which means race,breed, race or lineage”
For more pls see this link
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/castesystem.htm
when did “untouchability” start in india ?? I think it started way before british came in.. did the caste system get corrupted during mughal empire? why were people belonging to certain so called lower caste not allowed inside temples? isnt this wrong? these questions haunt me for a long time.
Before your question i would ask: What is the harm in untouchability?
wont a human feel offended when he is ignored? i understand the importance of doing the family work. but not allowing people inside the temple is the only reason i keep hearing from people. Temple is a space for one’s spiritual growth and it should be made available to any human. and FYI i am a brahmin and i feel others should not be offended like this..
Excellent article, thanks. You may also have read IIM B’lore’s Prof R Vaidyanathan’s writings on the economic creative powers of the jaati Clusters in India. About 70% of
Indian economic output is from these traditional clusters …. India attempts to “shine” from there, past the murky clouds of Modern Capital economic structures….
Thanks karigar.. yes i saw it.. but the problem with them is that they are evaluation caste based only on economic success.. the reality is that caste is NOT based on economics alone.. the successful families are those who already are well versed in trading.. but what about the castes who are primarily labourers?
In the old setup, the caste as a whole worked as labourers together in the same village, so that they could live as community, have their own festival etc.. today, with corporatisation, these castes are being treated as slaves..
We should not evaluate caste based on money power..
An excellent, illuminating,unbiased, meaningful and a rare exchange of valuable thoughts. Thanks for initiating such a topic which is the NEED of the hour. . Hope this will contribute to the right thinking and if possible to a just and logical conclusion.
Caste is birth based but is that not slowly fading away -It is to those who live in urban centres.The whole perspective of caste is as you have rightly said brought to us by the British and the English educated.Caste is not the same as jatis Caste is a roughly segmented population.In one caste there are groups of jatis.Traditionally held occupation was good in a closed economy but then father is a cobbler so the son has to be a cobbler looks like a compulsion.This compulsion was valid in traditionally closed societies-because there were no choices/options- but today the seams of society are opening out and the son sees other opportunities hence rejects his traditional job.Would you say it is bad?He has other options.
Assimilation is a process-one cannot put the clock back but one can appreciate how traditional societies functioned without any law and order problem.How they maintained the balance of a healthy growth etc.This has never been creditted to the birthbased caste/traditionaly society.Today’s unrest,inability to connect,urban lack of identity are carrying groups of persons into the vortex of lack of identity.Who am I?The inability to relate sends the urban/modern individual reeling down the road of rioting.See the UK riots.What needs to be accepted is the fact that education has changed people’s perspective.Ambitions are growing and the rural urban divide is slowly merging into one.So your present article is excellent in the way it has given credit to what the caste system had done-but will it hold good for the future?There is a tendency to curse caste system and blame it for all the ills.This according to me is wrong.It did play a positive role but not any more….One side caste is breaking one would say with all the natural process of economic growth and individual aspirations but on the other side the politicians keep the caste gaps and its identities for purely vote bank purpose.So the need to keep caste based identites have reached a new peak-to cater to the vote bank purpose.This is definitely not healthy and good for the growth of the society.
I find you well acquainted with caste and all that it means.You have an innovative way of looking at it and analysing it.This comes from your anchoring in the rural .It is rich and carries gems of wisdom.Carry on -you can become an expert sociologist and put to shame the western models!
Hilda Raja
Thanks madam..
/** Traditionally held occupation was good in a closed economy but then father is a cobbler so the son has to be a cobbler looks like a compulsion
**/
It is not compulsion.. its natural occurence.. people marry within the same jaathi.. both husband and wife come from same background.. both have equal stake in their jaathi profession and both work togethr.. the children (whether son or daughter) also assists their parents.. the children are married at right age (usually 16-20), and the bride comes from the same jaathi.. hence after marriage both continue in the same profession.. so there is no compulsion..
People would have been happy being in their jaathi.. it is only because britishers collapsed this setup by its hostile laws, it started weaning away.. and later, the indian government (& its constitution) inflicted heavier damage to jaathis, than britishers.. If the government had given enough support (as they are giving to big corporates & software companies), people would have been happier..
Till today, in any family enterprise, the son gradually takes over his father’s enterprise..
Madam Hilda Raja’s encouraging comment is most apt and appropriate. AS SHE RIGHTLY POINTED OUT YOU , SHRI SENTHIL,HAVE THE KNACK AND THE WISDOM AS WELL TO ANALYSE THE SUBJECT IN A PROPER PERSPECTIVE WHICH WILL IF CORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD AND APPRECIATED BY THE SOCIETY WILL GO A LONG WAY IN REMOVING THE HATRED, HEARTBURNS CAUSED AMONG THE PEOPLE. GOOD WORK. GOD BLESS YOU
thank you sir.. this is my humble attempt to initiate an indigenous thinking, free from established notions..
@swamy
/** wont a human feel offended when he is ignored? i understand the importance of doing the family work. but not allowing people inside the temple is the only reason i keep hearing from people. Temple is a space for one’s spiritual growth and it should be made available to any human. and FYI i am a brahmin and i feel others should not be offended like this..
**/
I will write a separate post on this particular issue.. this issue is because of the corrupted understanding of temples.. what do you mean by spiritual growth? is it the christian spirit? Is spirit same as athma?
Secondly, what is the basic requirements of a person seeking spirituality? what is the difference b/w a sanyasin and a person seeking spirituality?
If we can understand all these, we can get a clarity on this issue..
Temple is like a public energy bank where anyone can get inducted into a self realization process. To know more, Please watch a u tube video where sathguru jaggi vasudev talks about the real purpose of Hindu temple and the science of building it. My concern is, this suppression is stated as the main reason for religious conversions. Any video I see about caste system, ppl blame Brahmins for this suppression. This opened the door for conversion which we should have avoided.
@swami.. i have only one question.. do you have the ability to look beyond the propogandas? as long as you are downed by these propoganda, you cannot realise the truth..
Am definitely open to receive the truth. I will wait for your blOg on so called untouchability and what the actual context and purpose was…
i had already written a post on untouchability.. you can refer it below..
http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/untouchability-is-it-really-evil/
very good blog senthil. i am spending lots of time on your blogs
keep it going!!
you can see this too..
http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/dalits-and-menial-jobs-who-forced-them/
Pingback: the birth based hysteria – 2 – why birth based | Senthilraja’s blog
Mr. Senthilraja, I notice that you asked point blank: What is the harm in untouchability? I cannot understand the purport of your statement. Do we want to eliminate the cast-based society in our modern social fabric or do we support this legacy to carry on?
I am born in a rural village in Rajasthan in an Agarwal family and have seen the rural society but did not agree when some people were not allowed to use facilities in the name of their lower castes. As a child, I used to see it but since the life flowed and everybody accepted it as a natural consequence, nobody made a bone of contention. But it does not mean that I support it.
Please do not think that I am criticising you but this caste system has been prevalent in Indian society since antiquity you know it well. Those were different days and I feel that we should not allow ourselves as captive of this negative aspect. Then again even the British society is no exception to it. Only around the WW I, if you see the British society, the females were not allowed to read and write. They were not allowed to intermingle with the male folks and were best liked to be house bound. Then their servant class were treated with utter mideamanor and contempt that they were not allowed to walk infront of their masters with heads high.
I have lived in UK for a decade and have seen those places. Some of them have been eliminated now though they were preserved as the archeological heritage. They must have realised that these heritages are bringing them more of disrepute than repute, as they criticise others like us for the similar practices. I have visited and in one place, I lived for about five years. That place is now sold and modern apartments have been built. You might have heard the name of an author – George Elliot who was a pseudonym of a lady from Midlands in England in the beginning of last century. You might like to read an epistolary novel – Pamela or Virtue Rewarded by Samuel Richardson (1740) also that will give the idea of the rigid class system in British society.
British came here for business. Their whole aim was to loot and administration was a means to that end. They did not divide us. We were and still are as badly or goodly divided or united as we were earlier. They merely exploited our weakness, an old instrument to divide and rule. My friend Jean Dreze has used a new name – decieve. He is another anti-hindu christian apologist and sympathiser planted here and now patronised by the UPA’s secular Babus and Madams.
My comment is getting long. I wish to say that in current scenario, this caste system in India is being used as (1) Vote Bank (2) Business to extract money. Middle class is given money in the name of various lower castes. This has seen more and more people in my areas seeking to classify themselves as BC, OBC, untouchables perhaps is not a classified caste system but it is scheduled castes and tribes that groups them differently. The more backward one can prove, the more money and other benefits in terms of reservations, quotas, housing facilities and etc are easily earned. Examples are well known. All this money is siphoned away from the grassroots into the pockets of the corrupt who are clever enough to do so. Today if you do not toe the establishment line, you had it. This is true for all of them.
I have also known that some christian missionaries also encourage this social illness including in the christian communities themselves. Please forgive me as I do not mean any offence to any brothers and sisters but the fact remains if we are to openly discuss it. In UP there is one dalit gentleman who has started a temple – English Maataa temple for dalits; you may be aware of. Then he observes the birthday of Lord Macaulay every year in Delhi and is funded by some sources to travel abroad lecturing. They also provide him or his ilks a platform to hear their vituperative talks. This world is a strange world.
Summing up: What we should encourage is a healthy environment in our educational institutions so that some education can be spread. This will help. Secondly a visit abroad may broaden up the ideas. This may encourage more cohesion at home. Thirdly as a medical person, I have seen a lot of Kerala girls coming and serving as nursing sisters. They intermingle with local people and some of them marry locally. I have not seen much fuss of caste in such relations.
The more we discuss, the more importance is given to a problem which may be better marginalised in the greater interest of social and economic development. This is how I may like to expect. We as educated people should recognise that the older caste system should be cast aside and a new system of doctors, accountants, management graduates, literate business class, engineers, archtects, and so on should evolve. Even a person may carry out two professions or business at a time. What is the problem?
Let us end it in a healthy productive debate sooner than latter so that we can all engage into a progressive society. I sum up respectfully,
God bless.
Dr. O. P. Sudrania
Every individual is different and still they find some similarities with others in terms of eating habits, work, worship methods and so they mingle with such people and a group is naturally formed. after all, birds of same feather flock together. So people with similar thoughts and intrest will definitely group together in any civilization. thats how it can be and trying to break this is not a good apprach. Jaathi and Kulam is also such ethnic groups. Whats wrong in having them?
Let me ask you one question. Do you go to mosque EVERY DAY for your prayer? Since you are “agarwal” i assume you dont. Does that mean that you have hatred towards islam and muslim people? Its not necessary right? So you as a person live peacefully and do your job, make money and take care of your survival. You as a person go to the place of your worship (temple) and take care of your religious or spiritual aspirations. So far so fine.. Now i am a third person seeing you and another person who is going to mosque and see that you both are different. I come to you and “encourage” you to go to mosuqe and you go and try that out. Mostly they might not let you in and do namaz with them and you come out disappointed. Now again i come to you and “infect with the idea” by saying “Look at the way you are being exploited.They dont allow you inside their worshiping area. They are evil.”
So in the above scenario, two different group of people are coexisting initially. Intruder comes and wanted to “mingle” them and create confusion. In above scenario, the 2 groups are religiously different. In india, in the past when britishers came, the same thing happened but it happened between groups that were subdivided under the same religion itself. Actually there was no religion as hinduism. It was just Sanathan Dharma. Just way of life… Say a fisherman group is there. They had their own place to live. They had their own temple. They had their own leader. They had their own laws. A brahmin was there. They had their own place to live (agrahaaram). They had their own jobs and temples. At least in south india, every group of people (kulam) had their own god which they call “Kula Deivam”. NEED DIDNT ARAISE IN THE PAST that one has to go to some other’s temple. Every village was a self fullfilled entity that they need not go out. ITS A SOCIETY MODEL. Britishers came in and created a confusion in this model encouraging the so called BC/MBC?SC/ST people to go to others temple which had different rules than theirs. They showcased the differences and magnified them. This is what happened.
Indian people are still confused on to which group they belong to. ITS AN IDENTITY CRISIS that we are having now. we are not enlightened beings to live beyond identity. For social and economic reasons we still need to associate ourself with a identity. Now, should we go back to vedic period? We cant go back immedietely. Should we continue the way we are right now? No because this will only lead to destruction of sanathan dharma as at some point of time in future we will loose the grip of this dharma and we will end up in other religions. you can see this happening in india in lots of states.
All we can do now is to gain clarity about what really happened when britishers came and what they did to our societal modal. Then we need to look at india the way it was before and realize how stable the society was for thousands of years. Remember, india was rich before. Being in village doesnt mean india was poor. you can be rich and happy and still be in a hut. Do not think wealth as “3 storied house”, “BMW”, “Playing Golf” etc. Indian money was looted by mughal and Britishers starting from 8th or 9th century and still indians are brilliant and are ruling all over in top companies. On the other hand, see western countries. They might have broad bridges and huge infrastructure.But they are in unrecoverable debts. Inflation hits every 3 years. All are virtual money. In india we usually consider getting loan itself is a bad thing. But entire west is on DEBT.Their financial model is a flop. So please dont associate richness with the west and get carried away.
Only thing that we can do now is to realize all this and Increase the pride of being a indian.
Why do we need engineers? As long as we need bridges to be built, we need them.
Why do we need bridges? As long as there is a need for efficient transportation we need bridges.
Why do we need efficient transportation? As long as people of same family is thrown away in various parts of the country/world for work, we need transportation.
As long as people are educated in macaulays way, people can only become engineers or scientists and they need to find job where ever they get one.
As long as this is happening, we need more fuel. This will impact the global warming by creating pollution… Do you see how things are connected?
In the past, people of same family lived close to each other. Agriculuture was done in every village so no need for importing/transporting food. Fresh food. Healthy food. Thats the way it was..
@sudrani,
Sir.. i apologize if i appear harsh in my comments.. but pls look at the history of white people.. why did they buy so many african slaves? why did slave system existed in europe before?
The accountant, engineers, business class all are class systems, which is based on luxurious life.. and this luxurious life is possible, only if there is a servant class, and that too at a subsidised rate.. you cannot afford to employ a house cleaner for a whopping amount..
Today, the british society survives, because their currency is elevated, so that labours from india and other african nations, can work for them, at cheap rates..
Do you feel, this system is best?
@sudrania,
/** We as educated people should recognise that the older caste system should be cast aside and a new system of doctors, accountants, management graduates, literate business class, engineers, archtects, and so on should evolve.
**/
Please tell me who will clean your toilets, who will dig the soil for building basement for your house, who will clearn the streets and sewages, who will rear cows to produce milk for you, who will work under sun in the fields to produce food for you, who will produce cotton for weaving cloth for you.. who will work as construction labourers.. and who will work for all those essential things you need for your life?
are you ready to let your son to work in any of the above mentioned profession? Are you ready to let your son, to clean the cow sheds, rear the cattle, and supply milk to the so called business class, engineers? Or are you ready to allow your son to work as labourer, to dig the soil to lay basement for the house? or to work as road worker, laying thar or concrete roads?
Even if you allow, who will give bride for your son? Or else, if you have a daughter, will you marry off her to any of the labourer mentioned above?
It may be fascinating, that a son of a street worker, would study and become a millionare.. why is it NOT fascinating that a son of a millionare take up sewage cleaning as his profession?
If everyone had studied, and became engineers and doctors, do you feel, the society will function?
I would like to get your replies on the above, so that we can discuss other things about caste system..
Mr Senthil,
You scared me in your starter for being harsh but I do not mind as long as you are not abusive and I am glad on that. Secondly if you being to me is irrelevant if it contributes to some rational debate.
I believe you have lived in some western country and must have an idea of who cleans the toilets there. In India also, a visit to Sri Satya Sai Baba ashram may enlighten us. Why should we forget that maxim of Abraham Lincoln, “I cannot be a Master because I cannot be a slave”. Senthil if you do not want to come out of your shackles, nobody else can. I am sorry, politely and unlike you, I have no more to contribute on your this debate. I feel there are far more pressing problems in India that are a bigger scourge. We may differ in our approach but the problems will not leave us.
Thank you Senthil and please continue with your debate ad lib.
God bless
Dr O. P. Sudrania
Dear Sudrania,
Thanks for your patience with me.. i highlghted some realities of the modern system that you wanted our society to become.. i wish, you could see it from a neutral perspective.. The history is a proof for us to judge both the systems..
/** I feel there are far more pressing problems in India that are a bigger scourge.
**/
The root cause of the problem in india, is that a small group of people, who got educated in english education system, and live in cities, has become totally hostile to a majority of rural india.. and i would like to refer your own comment as example for this..
You did not think, that doctors and engineers are meant for the society.. rather, you consider doctors, engineers as separate class in itself independant of the society.. and this is the core problem..
/** Senthil if you do not want to come out of your shackles, nobody else can **/
Why being judgemental on me, that i am caught in shackles? I have my own understanding of jaathis, and the problems associated with it..
/** I believe you have lived in some western country and must have an idea of who cleans the toilets there.
**/
probably you can englighten me.. do the son/daughter of doctors or engineers cleaning the toilets & sewages there?
/** Why should we forget that maxim of Abraham Lincoln, “I cannot be a Master because I cannot be a slave”
**/
In jaathi setup, there is no master or slave, as in western society.. and that is the exact reason, i say, jaathi is the strength of our society..
Finally, you did not answer my question yet.. do the sons of any doctor or engineer or business class, take up the profession of sewage cleaning?
@sudrania,
My replies to your first comment..
/** I am born in a rural village in Rajasthan in an Agarwal family and have seen the rural society but did not agree when some people were not allowed to use facilities in the name of their lower castes.
**/
I agree.. it happens in my village too.. and i request you to ask your own people (elders), why they did not allow.. u will get the answer..
Also, no one is against those lower castes, in having their own facilities..
/** As a child, I used to see it but since the life flowed and everybody accepted it as a natural consequence, nobody made a bone of contention. But it does not mean that I support it.
**/
That’s the strength of our society.. mutual adjustment, and mutual understanding.. why do you polarise it, in to supporting / opposing.. let the people resolve it?
/** Then again even the British society is no exception to it. Only around the WW I, if you see the British society, the females were not allowed to read and write. They were not allowed to intermingle with the male folks and were best liked to be house bound. Then their servant class were treated with utter mideamanor and contempt that they were not allowed to walk infront of their masters with heads high.
**/
This problem is specific to british & european society, which later got in to indian society, when they conquered.. we did not have that problem, before britishers..
/** British came here for business. Their whole aim was to loot and administration was a means to that end.
**/
This is a mainstream propoganda.. please read our history.. when british came here, the mughals controlled most territory.. and later, the marathas and their peshwas controlled most of india.. for quite 300 years, the british were just merely a trader.. after invasion of nadirshah , the maratha army was weakened.. which enabled british to slowly conquer pockets of india, and subdue other rulers..
Please remember, that british did not invade us by sending an army from britain.. rather, they used all cunningness and deceit, and colonised india.. indian economy was a free market based, and traders were welcomed by all kings.. and britishers just used this advantage, and subdued kings.. and even for this, they had to fight for 100 years.. they did not have a cake walk, as used to be projected..
Even at the time of partition, the british directly ruled only 40% of india..
Please have a look at http://2ndlook.wordpress.com to have a real perspective about our history..
/** They did not divide us. We were and still are as badly or goodly divided or united as we were earlier.
**/
The notion that we already were divided up is an illusion.. please remember, britain and france fought 100 year war.. the whole europe was divided and fighting with each other.. Only thing is that we did not have the colonising mindset, as the europeans had..
@sudrania,
/** They merely exploited our weakness, an old instrument to divide and rule. **/
Please understand that we are neither homogenous NOR totalatarian society.. The polity was always separated from society, and that’s the reason, why britishers also got recruites from the free indian society..
Secondly, even if we assume, that british exploited our weakness, how can we be responsible for their looting.. When a thief robbed a house, will you say, the thief just exploited the weakness of the house, and it is the house owner, who is responsible?
/** I wish to say that in current scenario, this caste system in India is being used as (1) Vote Bank (2) Business to extract money.
**/
Who is using the caste system? The politicians.. and how come jaathis be accused of the act, the politicians are misusing it?
/** This has seen more and more people in my areas seeking to classify themselves as BC, OBC, untouchables perhaps is not a classified caste system but it is scheduled castes and tribes that groups them differently. The more backward one can prove, the more money and other benefits in terms of reservations, quotas, housing facilities and etc are easily earned
**/
Again, who is responsible for this? It is the government which had categorised BC, OBC, SC, ST etc.. again how come the jaathis be responsible for the wrong doing of the government? Just ask the government to abolish reservation, and we will find each jaathi living their own life without any problems..
/** Thirdly as a medical person, I have seen a lot of Kerala girls coming and serving as nursing sisters. They intermingle with local people and some of them marry locally. I have not seen much fuss of caste in such relations.
**/
Even if kerala girl doesnt intermingle, will there by any problem? Why do you expect people to leave/lose their identity? Its a fact, that those kerala girls lose their roots and identity, after intermingling with locals..
/** We as educated people should recognise that the older caste system should be cast aside and a new system of doctors, accountants, management graduates, literate business class, engineers, archtects, and so on should evolve. Even a person may carry out two professions or business at a time. What is the problem?
**/
I have asked few questions in my earlier comments, for which there is no answer.. waiting for that..
Further to this, why should educated people dictate terms to the whole society? Does getting educated and becoming doctor make you a social engineer? As i said in my previous comment, just because the doctors and engineers (& other professionals) get everything out of their high paid salary, they started to think, they are separate class in itself, independant of society..
And this is a manifestation of british societal system.. that nobles with money and power, getting all things in life, out of exploitation of slaves.. (in modern society, the economic slaves)
@sundrani,
Am a sathya sai devotee myself. If you notice close, sathya sai baba didnt have an engineering college. he only had arts and science. engineers tends to get entangled in the rat race and focus only on money. he didnt want his students to get in that line. So he had only arts and science. So “engineering” the way it is done now is just killing the planet and its resources. it has disturbed the structure of the society and the very fabric of nature is disturbed… Baba also preached sanathan dharma. Even foreign students learn vedas at his schools and colleges.