Dalits and Menial Jobs – who forced them?

When debating on any dalit issues, a particular argument is blindly placed often.  That, the caste system had forced the dalits to do menial jobs for generations.  Among the menial jobs, two cases are often cited.

1. Night Soil Cleaning

2. Sewage cleaning

But on detailed analysis of this accusation, i found that it is baseless and untrue.

Let me explain my findings.

Night Soil Cleaning:

This means, cleaning of the human waste.  I will take the example of “Septic Tank” cleaning, that is done today by a section of people in cities and towns.  The elite indians and the secularists often blame caste system for the pathetic state of those people who do this work of septic tank cleaning.  But there are many contradictions in this blame.

Let us consider the situation 20 years before.  ie, around 1990s, when india was NOT yet liberalised and globalised.

During 1980s and 1990’s, 99% of the rural villages do not have the system of toilet.  All the village people defecate either in open fields in the outskirts, or in the nearby bushes.  Since, a typical village is made up of around 1000 to 2000 people, and usually surrounded by forests or fields, the people did not have the necessity to have toilet facilities.

Now, if there is no toilet in villages even at 1980s, we can very well assume that the same was the case during 1900’s, 1800’s  and in the entire past of hindu india.  I am specifically mentioning hindu india, for a reason which we discuss later on.

If village system do not have toilets, how can the caste system force the dalits to clean night soil?

The propoganda of the secularists is outrightly false in this case, as night soil cleaning is never part of the caste profession.

Who forced dalits to be septic cleaners?

Now lets analyse how come the dalits happened to be septic tank cleaners.

We need to understand that NOT all dalits do this menial job.  Only specific community, who happened to be extremely poor, are doing this now.  But how they came in to this job?

The toilet system is the most necessary, only in Urban system.  Wherever a town or city is created, every house has to have a toilet, as there is no open space for defecation.  So, when there is a toilet system, there is a septic tank.

When the whole town is using toilets, then there arises a need to clean the septic tanks once its filled.  Thus, the urban people was in need of some one to clean their septic tanks.  Unfourtunately, the dalits who had a means of living in rural villages, were left as an orphans as their village became towns.  They have to earn for basic living, and for earning, they have to do some jobs.  With limited opportunities, and unable to accustom to sudden environmental changes of their area from village to town, some people, had to compromise in doing this menial job of septic tank cleaning.

Its natural, that for any job where man power is less, there is a demand, the demand for septic tank cleaners increased, and gradually, the entire community started doing this job for survival.

Now, let me ask this question.

Who is responsible for dalits cleaning night soil?  Is it caste sytem or Urban system?

Why is caste system accused for this, while the actual perpetrator is the urban people?

Now, coming to the point of night soil cleaning, this system was actually first brought to india by the invading muslim rulers.  The life style of the muslim invaders were predominantly urban oriented, and hence they had already employed slaves for night soil cleaning in their original homeland.  Later, when they invaded india, they forced the defeated army to do that job.  Since for the next thousand years, it was the muslim rule, and muslim rulers happened to rule many parts of india, the night soil cleaning was often forced upon defeated or captured forces, who later became a community in itself.

When britishers came, they expanded the urban system as a government policy itself, which further increased the demand for night soil cleaners.

Sewage Cleaners:

Like toilet system, sewage system are present only in towns and cities.  Have we ever seen any sewage in villages?

In villages, due to low density of population, there was no necessity for separate sewages.  The waste water decomposes naturally in open spaces.

So, who is responsible for forcing dalit people to clean sewages.  The same urban system.

How come caste system be responsible for that?

Today, we find that the demand for sewage cleaning is directly proportional to the expansion of the cities.  The more the city expands, the more the need for sewages.

More worse is the underground sewages constructed in big cities.  Atleast in open sewages, its relatively easy to clean it.  But in the case of underground, it requires the employees to clean it by entering in to the tunnel.

This kind of urban development is very artificial, and it is such system, which creates a necessity for the people to do such menial jobs.

And normally, when cities expand in to nearby areas, the forward communities, who mostly posses lands sell it and comfortably settle in the expanding city.  But the dalits people and other poor communities, who once depended on the agricultural lands, now become landless and also pennyless.  Everyone knows, that everything is commodotised in india, right from food to education to hospitals.

In a typical city, no one can live without money.  what will the dalits do?  The public lands around them are encroached or converted in to plots.  So these dalit people become slum dwellers around a concrete houses.  It is the same people, who later become a servant to these new middle class colonies.

In villages, the dalits had decent agriculture job.  But in urban colonies what kind of job they have? without education, they can offer only physical labour.  And in urban cities, physical labour is needed mostly for disposing wastes, cleaning sewages and toilets, and cleaning septic tanks.   And such physical labour is commodotised under the guise of “Cheap Labour”, to be exploited by the urbanites.  Contrary to this, in villages, the dalits often received their wages as a share of the agricultural produce.  So, their labour is treated in participatory mode, and NOT cheaply commodotised.

The later day clashes b/w dalits and land owners arose due to monetisation of agriculture, and hence when wages were started to be paid in cash, it became unaffordable both for farmers and the labourers.  As usual, the communist vultures treated this as opportune moment and played their havoc.

90% of india was Rural:

We all know that during independance, 90% of india was rural.  I think, the same situation continued as late as 1980s’, where atleast 85% should have been rural.  Which means, 85% of india did not know what is meant by toilet.  So, it is that 15% who had exploited the dalits, but to cover up, started accusing the rural caste system.  The rural villagers so far was NOT used to such kind of intellectual terrorism and hence silently suffered from this kind of ostracisation.  Today, with more people educated from rural areas, it is their duty to dispel such kinds of myths, and bring those urban intellectuals in to trial.

As an additional note, i would like to inform that the brahmins of rural india, too did not have any toilets and I hope they too defecated in open grounds.  If any of the brahmins are from rural side or have living memory of rural life, please enlighten me.

I will end with the following questions.

1. Is the urban elites trying to conceal their sins, by shifting the blame on caste system?

2. The so called secular writers, human right activists (read communists),  and other torch bearers of social justice, live in urban centers, probably in posh bungalows, utilise the very same dalit people for cleaning their toilets, and septic tanks, and also pay a tax to the municipality who further employs dalits to clean the sewages.  Are these writers not part of a system that forces dalits to do menial jobs?

3. So far, caste system is heavily blamed and tarnished for making dalits to do menial jobs.  Now since its proved that it is the urban system which is the culprit, will those elites, and torch bearers, accuse and blame the urban system as evil?  Ofcourse, in my view it is the most evil.

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89 Responses to Dalits and Menial Jobs – who forced them?

  1. vanamamalai says:

    senthil
    your writings make interesting reading. how much authenticated it is? whats your source/ some pieces sound scholarly defying your age (mid 20’s??)
    i remember as far as late 60’s our ancestral home in our villa ge had a ‘potty’ an indian version (though we all relished easing out in the expanasive open green fields , since we cant get to do the same in our cities)
    i am not sure about the community bit the farm hands who were in attendace used to claen our ‘backs’ too after we finish looing. but our village could be an exception so one cant generalise

    vanamamalai

    • senthil says:

      Thanks vanamamalai.. All my source is my personal observance, experience, and my living memory of my childhood. I am not claiming my viewpoint as most authentic. However, i just posted here, so that further discussion would help us understand more on this line of thought.

      I am sure, that all my community members did not use toilets.. however i am not sure how brahmins and chettiars lived on those days.. (here i do not mean the brahmin elites who sided with british.. but the normal brahmins who lived in villages).

      Btw, i am in late 20s :)

  2. Senthil your earlier query was is Caste system an evil.Please let me elaborate.Your emphasis and focus is on the word ‘Evil’.What do you mean by saying that it is not evil-if your protestis against the word evil then it is another premise-but if you want to convey that caste system is not evil that is different.If it is not evil then it is good! that means your stand is that caste system is not evil.It cannot be both.Yes it is evil in the sense that all social prejudices and social sins are evil.We say that drinking is an evil-bride burning is an evil-even the dowry system is an evil.Though if you take the dowry system there can be justifications for giving a dowry-because in patriarchal families the girls do not get a share of the property.But the dowry giving and taking is prohibited by law.In that way caste system is a social evil because it discriminates a person for no fault of hers/his.Unlike the jihadis who are brainwashed and opt to become a jihadi.I am born in a particular caste and because of that I am looked down upon.Learning was denied to me -the reading of the holy scriptures was denied-going to educational institutions was forbidden-So let us not play into semantics but look at what it does-After all how can then drinking be evil?Because of its effect on familial and societal relationships.Because it influences behaviour and makes a person irrational etc.As it is can drinking be an evil.It is a way of condemning things-systems,behavior which hurts and demeans the personhood.
    To come to your present query who made the SCs perform scavenging work.Where does the SCs live-by the side of the running open gutter and the garbage heaps.Who forces the farmer to till the soil?Who forces the cobbler to mend your slippers?Caste system has different theories-one is the occupation theory by which the conquered was made to do all the menial work.This is understandably.The fact that the more powerful-the wealthy-the educated make others perform the smaller tasks-the dirty tasks is again an inherent oppression that we all have.We command the servants-why, because we have power-we give them jobs we know and they do not know.Well lets go to the past-the same.Rural India did not have toilets-even today it does not have.But does that prevent the caste people to remove the slime and slush-to get into the gutters and clean it up?No not a single brahmin/caste person did it then and now.But today things have changed I do not say that the brahmins were the exploiters-not at all,all those who possessed land and had wealth.Urban India only continues the same pattern.Who cleans the manholes?Who sweeps thw roads?Take S’pore-there also the Indians who migrated long ago were given that job.I have seen Indian women sweeping the roads.In fact Sri Lanka did the same-UK did the same.Vijalakhmi Pandit when she landed in Hawthrope airport was shocked to see the Punjab women cleaning and sweeping.She wondered if they would do it in India.Thats because in UK there was no caste system but had a deep discrimination against the Indian migrants so they had to do those jobs.Why was there slavery in the US?Again the inherent nature of man to supress and oppress those inferior-those who are powerless.If there was slavery there here we had a caste system-both varying in degrees of oppression,supression and discrimination and servility Again things have changed.One need not be told one can be pushed and elbowed into such a situation where there is no alternative but to perform that task.Have you see the movie ‘Thaneeir,thaneeir”If you have not please do get the video and watch it.Even today who lives in the main streets in villages?And how is the kucha gutter system in villages-the crude way of letting out the human waste and all other waste through gutters which run out to the outskirts of the village boundry and who lives there?I am not a pseudo secularist.But most of the Indians who call themselves as secularists are pseudos!Poverty is the root cause-thats why I said that those who had land and wealth imposed their rules and oppressed others to do what they thought dirty work.I am aware that today if a sweeper is well paid then any caste would opt for it.With gloves and modern equipment as in foreign countries anyone would take up the job.Money,more money can motivate-can insulate,can destroy-it all depends on who has the money and how it is used.In the US it is the hispanics who do the menial work-why because they are poor.If I have no other alternative then I will do any work that is available to fill my stomach.Except the pallars even today SCs do not own land.Of course Justice Dinakaran must be a pallar and he says he owns 45 acres of land.All pallars own land.This was a latter development.So they call themselves as Devandrakulam Vellalars.They are neither Vellalars nor Devandanrakulam!With money everything will change.Thanks for your provocative queries.I may change if you can convince me!Thats is learning and is not conditioned by age!All the best Senthil

    • Sheela Gopalakrishnan says:

      I have read that Sulabh foundation employs brahmins to clean and manage the toilets they build.
      http://www.outlookindia.com/printarticle.aspx?234780.
      Brahmins do work as servants in lot of households nowadays.

    • Jacob says:

      Hi Sheela,

      Well it is very offensive words that you have used against pallars. Well I dont care to which caste Justice Dinakaran belongs to but you are no one to call people by caste.
      And who are you to tell some one is Vellar or Devandrakulam.
      First look at your roots from where you came and what you are.
      I think your comments shows really bad about your thinking.
      Well I am offended by you

      • Srikumar says:

        both Vellar or Devandrakulam belongs to vysya community… as per the job prespective. I am totally confused with the govt record. Am wondering… why vaninnar commnity is included in the MBC list? Infact, they were ruling this tamilnadu for such long interval of time. And also, muslims were ruling this country for more than 1000 of years. Still, govt put them in OBC list.

  3. Mahesha Prasad says:

    Dear Sentil,

    Regarding your query about brahmin families having toilets – Yes, I come from a poor(WHOV! IS THAT POSSIBLE?) brahmin family. We did not had a toilet until almost 1985. same was the case with most of the Brahmins around us, whether they were rich were poor.

    Good thoughts Sentil. I strongly believe big cities with metropolitan infrastructure is not sustainable in long term. I am living in Bangalore and had I had enough land in village, I wish I migrate back to village. All this development is junk. People need wealth to have enough to eat, stay at home and have some cloths. Too much of wealth is of no use but current materialistic people don’t understand that. They are falling prey to their own ignorance.. If tomorrow there is a scarcity of food (it is almost certain now that commodity prices are bound to increase), urban people are the first one to suffer, though grossly everyone will be affected.

    • VBNK says:

      Dear Mahesha Prasad,
      The village is no longer a “Self Sustaining” entity.
      A village now hardly produces one or two crops.
      Many villages do not even produce the food crops.

      What’s the point in going back to the village?
      We only need to make the urban entities more sustainable.

      We need not defocate in the open fields.
      We only need to centralize the Septic system and produce electricity from the Human Waste.

      Do you know that Open defocation releases poisonous Mithane gas and poisons our food chain?
      That’s why there was a high rate of infant mortality and even the adult mortality before 1970s.
      Only the “Survivers among the Fittest” lived until 90 or even hundred.

      Do you also know that living until the “Ripe Age”, defocating in the bed and getting your children clean your waste was considered “Highly Prestigeous” in the past?

      Children’s future was sacrificed and their education and earning of livelyhood in other parts of the region was prevented by many “Selfish” parents and relatives. Cleaning of Old People’s defocation was considered as the shortest root to getting hold of the entire agricultural land depriving all the other sibblings of their due share and perhaps giving them no share at all.

      Yes.
      I am a “Staunch Urbanite ” and the advocate of children’s and youth rights.

      • senthil says:

        @VBNK

        /** The village is no longer a “Self Sustaining” entity. **/

        So you agree that villages were once self-sustaining entity. Can you explain why its no longer so?

  4. vanamamalai says:

    DOCTOR HILDA
    SURPRISED TO SEE AN UNEMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO A BURNING SENSITIVE PROBLEM.SENTHIL IS A CANDID PERSON (A YOUNG ONE)WITH NO PRETENSIONS ATLEAST HE ACCEPTS THAT HIS VIEWS ARE FROM HIS OWN OBSERVATION THATS PRETTY NEAT ORIGINAL THINKING AND REFLECTION, SO ERRORS AND OMMISIONS ARE EXEMPTED .

    SENTHIL
    BRAHMINS WERE HARDLY ELITES THEY LIVED OFF BY UNJUVERATTI (AN EUPHIMISM FOR BEGGING } THE SOCIETY TOOK CARE OF THESE BRAMINS WHO SERVED SOCIETY IN THEIR CAPACITY AS KNOWLEDGE GIVERS( HOW MUCH THEY IMPARTED MAY BE DEBATABLE, AT LEAST THAT WAS THE IDEA BEHIND)MY VILLAGE IS IN TUTICORIN DT OFF TIRUCHENDOOR WITH AHOT MIX OF NADARS TEVARS DALITS AND TEVARS UPPER CASTE PILLAIMARS AND A PEDOMINANT CRISTIAN AND MUSLIM POPULATION AND A NEGLIGIBLE BRAHMIN TOTAL ( I DONT HAVE SPECIFIC DEMOGRAPHIC DETAILS I MAY NOT BE FAR OFF THE MARK)

    DR HILDA

    EDUCATION WEALTH AND KNOWLEDGE GIVE STATUS AND SOCIAL IDENTITY. AS IN AMERICA THIS SORT OF WORK IS DONE BY IMMIGRANT LABOUR/ LATIN AMERICANS AND MAY BE AFROAMERICANS. HERE AND ELSEWHERE ACCROS THE WORLD CASTE IS REPLACED WITH OTHER DETRMINANT FACTORS, FIRST BEING WEALTH FOLLOWED BY EDUCATION AND BY APPLICATION THE GAINED KNOWLEDGE, ALL THESE BEGET A SOCIAL STATUS THAT PERPTRATES THESE SO CALLED ‘EVILS’ DESCPICABLE NEVERTHELESS. MAY BE SOCIETY SHOULD MOVE AWAY FROM BRANDING AND SUBSEQUENT WITCH HUNTING TO IDENTIFYING SOLUTIONS TO THESE DEEP ROOTED PROBLEMS.

    INTERSTINGLY WHEN ONE DISTRICT ADMN IN UP ADVERTISED FOR THE JOB OF SCAVENGERS, 2000 ODD APPLIED AND OUT OF WHICH 600 PLUS WHERE FROM THE BRHMIN COMMUNITY LIKE THE PANDA’S VAJPAYEE’S SHARMA’S ETC( I DONT KNOW WHETHER THERE WERE IYERS AND IYENGARS) THIS PROVES A POINT THAT WHEN THE UNDER BELLY PINCHES NOTHING MATTERS THE TAMIL ADAGE GOES THUS “PASI VANTHAL PATHUM PARANTHU POGUM” ONE LOOSES ALL SENSITIVITIES.
    LOOK FOR SOLUTIONS IN A BROADER SPECTRUM LIKE URBANISATION AND FUNDAMENTALS OF SURVIVAL AND MISPLACED PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE .
    BYE

  5. critic says:

    many people blabber abt. this issue….but none has thought in this angle. Great! Neat original thinking! Go ahead!

  6. raj says:

    Hi senthil,
    I lived in Indian village, my family elders are the heads of the village. i am against them in this issue, because they separate them from rest of the village, treat them differently, in functions, festivals, on all things, but why? because they are born to certain family of untouchables. It’s craziness. Because you love your country, doesn’t mean everything they did in past is right, senthil. You views contradict each other.

    • senthil says:

      Raj,

      I dont deny such kind of incidents.. Even now, some sections of people keep certain sections away. But my point is that these are perception and attitude problems and NOT evil.. There is a reason for this social behaviour, and instead of analylsing and looking back to it, a dirty political game is played in to it..

      Not all dalits are kept away.. in our region, the sakkiliar community is relatively closer to the dominant caste than the parayar and pallar community.. Probably it may differ in other regions..

      But in all underlying cases, we find only unharmful way of handling conflicts and contraditions, rather than the culture of persecutions, as happened in rest of the world, and in india like kashmir and Northeast..

      Even in the case you mentioned, the dominant caste did not interfere in the other communities personal social life..

      And my question is that without sensationalising it, are our people ready to understand the problem..

      What we will do, if a particular student is kept away by a group of other students, in college or school? We tend to understand why it happens? We strive to understand the psychology of the students.. right?

      Where is that attitude towards our society? As i said earlier, the problem is perspective, attitude and acceptance problems.. that can be solved in a generational change, once the root cause is understood.. but when will we understand that root cause?

    • senthil says:

      Raj.. to understand these problems, you have to flash back to history just 300 years before.. the india of those days had numerous sub-republics, numerous groups, many kings & kingdoms, and wars b/w them..

      To quote you an example, in my community, there was two sections, one is called sendalai gounder and another minority section is called padaithalai gounder.. the padaithalai gounder are groups of people, who joined tipu sultan’s army, against community decision.. so they were excommunicated and even now, there is no relation with them..

      Similarly, the naatu gounders had so far remained separate, without mingling with other gounders..

      Like wise, there are so many reasons why such problems exists and we have to first understand them..

      The britishers had given the land rights to those communities who ruled the area at that time.. so the devars of the south, vanniars of the north tamilnadu, gounders of the west tamilnadu, the pillais of the east and south east, got the land rights respectively.. Other communities would have migrated from some other regions, but could not have assimilated in to the new area..

      For eg, the parayars are majority in ariyalur dist, and own lands.. but they are excommunicated in other regions.. reason might be, they were once rulers, but due to losing a war, they might had fled to other areas and work as labourers.. or these communities had worked as a drum beaters or handling war musical instruments, in major kingdoms, so that when britishers took over all kingdoms, these people may had lost their livelihood and influence..

      There are many possibilities and reasons.. but are we open enough to discuss all these?

      In my opinion, if caste system is evil for keeping away certain sections, then what about islam, which persecuted kashmir pandits and driven away from kashmir, or the christianity which is persecuting the native tribals in northeast?

      If caste system is evil, then religion, particularly the semitic religions are more evil, by all benchmarks and accounts, till this day..

  7. S says:

    Great post Senthil and yes, you are spot on. Though I have lived in cities all my life, this issue of “dalit” has always bothered me as something that is blown WAY out of proportion. As a child, I grew up playing with the grandkids of my nanny, who can safely be described as a “dalit”. My friends also wondered what the hell is this “dalit” issue. Poverty, though, is an issue and that it has lasted for so long after independence is due to the socialistic policies of our great Chacha Nehru – the wise one responsible for the mess in Kashmir and the subsequent handing over of Tibet to the commies. I thought long and hard about it and realized that most of our problems – jihadis, missionaries, and marxists, are all related to our great Chacha. Anyway, back to the topic – our local municipality employs people from all castes into the sanitation department, no issues, and I hardly think that anyone in his right mind would want to hug a sanitation worker if he was badly stained in filth. I don’t think that a sanitation worker’s wife would either, no matter how much she loved him. This is basic hygiene we are talking about.

    This whole dalit business is a hype blown way out of proportion by the church – controlled media.

    • Job says:

      It is easy for you to say that because you are not a dalit. I am from the American south, and the same excuses being made here were made back then, about how whites got along so well with their maids and nannies, and about how problems between blacks and whites were blown out of proportion by the media and the communists, and this anecdotal evidence about some black person somewhere was a doctor or owned a business. Just as in the American south, 100% of the people defending the current system wouldn’t spend five seconds in the other guy’s shoes.

      • senthil says:

        Job,

        you cannot deny that there are white owners, who treated slaves in better way.. there are many whites who gave their wealth to the slave children of theirs..

        Infact, there are african blacks who themselves acted as agents to supply slaves..

        But such kind of pragmatic approach cannot be taken by any one in america.. both by supporters or opposers of slave system..

        Coming to dalit issue, we have good understanding of their problem and have regular interaction with them.. and that is why, i am confidently expressing my views..

        Unlike many others, i do not rely on academic bullshits written by marxists.. i rely on my own experience and my own observation..

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  9. Rashmi says:

    Senthil, Caste system/untouchability came after mogul invasions. I have stayed in a remote village in madhya pradesh we earlier never had toilets to defecate we used to go out for same, most of the villagers used to the same. early indians used to get up at 4.00 clock in morning, my grand father used to get up early,The logic was that ppeople will walk a bit take fresh air and relieve a bit in morning, go to a nearby rivers take bath and then spend morning times in Astanga yoga/ meditation practice between 4- 6 in morning, which is called brahma muharta. Further there was no cacteism as told and highlighted by christian/brithish missionary they judged indian culture with their prejudced eye, Shabri in ramayana was a shudra (by profession) her Guru was patanga Rishi (note a brahmin, achieved supreme state of Nirvakalpa samadhi through hard practice of astanga yoga/tapasya/following preach of vedas)in early morning,Wife of Shantanau Satyavati’s father was a fish cathcher, Maharishi Parasher married her with whose union she had sage ved vyasaa(who had put down oral traditions of vedas with his six disciples into tada patra). Only qualities of a person was important. Vedic seers understood well soul is casteless,formless and genderslees. To understand the vedic wisodm of india you dont require three/4 PH D’d you need to be a Yogi, a mantradrishta rishi who had had achieved cosmic union with God through Nirvikalpa samadhi, who has understood cosmic laws and secrets of creation by experience. I request people to read Autobiography of yogi by paramhansa yogananada(this book is taught in foreign universities as text for metaphysics, translkated into 21 languages of world), Divine one/chidaksha Gita on Swami Nityananda of Ganeshpuri – at scribd.com, , Patanji yogasutrsa – I & II by swami ramswarpu ( a book wriiten by a yogi based on his experience of cosmic union) – http://www.vedmandir.com.

    Readers after reading above books should then read sai charitra(Sai baba of shirdi), gajanana Maharaja of shegaons’ biography, Guru chartira . You will then understand what was india’s culture and most probably find out all answers to your questions. Do astanga yoga and experience these truths yourself.

    Modern science is incomplete will remain so and forever

    • senthil says:

      Thanks rashmi..

      /** To understand the vedic wisodm of india you dont require three/4 PH D’d you need to be a Yogi
      **/

      Golden words.. we need to realise to understand spirituality..

    • fallenmonk says:

      Hey Dumbass, your point of view is extremely limited. All those examples of Sabri et al from some random mythical stories of an unknown period of time doesn’t prove that there was no caste system in India. During the Buddhist period, you can say, that there was no caste system indeed. Buddhism complete forbids it. But later when the glory of Buddhism had completely rendered the priests as a scattered minority who were struggling to maintain the tradition of sacrifices and rituals of their ancient Vedas, that the priests devised a cunning strategy. The strategy of ‘divide and rule’ which is hardly unknown to any Indian. The priests converted the foreigner Scythians and white Hunas as “rajputs” and promised to give them a status of Kshatriya if these barbaric invaders wiped out Buddhism from their domains. In the Central India – and this is of quite interest to you because you also belong to central India – the Brahmins upgraded not the Caucasian Scythians as “rajputs” but the Gond kings and royalty as “rajputs” and ordered them to eliminate Buddhism for the cunning priests. Thus, people were pitted against each other and the sole benefitors of such a war were the Brahmins, who spontaneously gained the highest power thereonwards and then went on to revive Brahminanism or the so called Hinduism. All these rajput kings like Chandelas etc were once non-Caucasian and non Aryan native Indian kings.

      You can even find the casual evidence in the physical appearances of the people. The rajputs of North-western India (Gujarat, Rajasthan etc) are fairly closer to the Caucasians of the middle East and west in general. The same is true for their other so called “upper castes. But in Central India and the United provinces, the physical appearance of the rajputs and Brahmins and other castes diverts largely from the Caucasian type (they are more darker as well). This is because at the height of Buddhism glory in the Northern India, when Brahmanic castes were not recognized by people, the priests migrated southwards and using that as their headquarters, began planning to revive their religion. Thus, came Sankara, the most violent Brahmanism revivalist ever seen in India. The Brahamanism that you see in India today, and more particularly in your own village, is all thanks to your messeiah Sanakara.

      Now go and drink some cow urine, Hindu fascist.

      • VBNK says:

        Hey Fallenmonk,
        You are really fallen.

        Do you think that the Budhist monasteries produce food?
        Budhist Monasteries only produce “Beggars.”

        Monasteries and Nunneries are the “Breeding Grounds” for “Illegitimate Relationships.”

        Lord Buddha established the study centers and not the “Beggar Houses”.

        Only “FallenMonks” bereaft of knowledge end up establishing the “False Doctrines” and the consequent “Beggar Houses”.

        Sister Rashmi,
        Don’t worry.

        As the Library of Alexandria was burnt down, all the modern libraries storing and propagating “False Doctrines” will be burnt down.
        Only the “Satya” will remain for ever.

        Satya is truthfulness.

        Satya is Cleanliness.

        Satya is Vegetarianism.
        Satya is getting rid of the Bodily Filth and the prolongation of “Spiritual Life.”

        I wonder why the Christians are unable to grasp this truth, in-spite of the exumplary life led by “Jesus Christ.”

      • Srikumar says:

        Sir, you first learn to respect others, By the way, you first read the history of south korea. All we want to say is… Hindu / sanathan dhrama doesn’t encourage the caste discrimination. The caste discrimination started only because of mugal and christions rule. Instead of reading the history writtne by communist / western people, I would suggest you to read the books written by indias… who doesnt belong to communist group. As per the govt record, Krishna (yadav) belongs to MBC and Ram belongs to OBC… Parvathi belongs to SC…. Bharamin is nothing do with caste…. By the way, veda vyaya hismelf is not a bharamin. he belongs to boyar community (fisher community). Ayran and dravidian story is myth. Western people created this story for converting the hindus. Please read the below link… Ambeduar himself didnt agree this dravidian story.

        (ambedukar interview)
        http://www.hvk.org/articles/0302/151.html

        http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/aryan-harappan-myth.html

  10. Incognito says:

    Interesting analysis Senthil.

    A related thought.

    If the so called dalist were treated so badly in ancient india, wouldn’t all of them convert to Buddhism, Jainism , especially when emperors like Ashoka, Chandragupta Maurya are said to have supported them ?

    As ‘eminent historians’ allege, is it really Sankaracharya who accepted a Chandala as his Guru, who reinstated the so-called oppressive caste system ?

    If that fellow Thomas proselytized in india 2000 yrs ago, wouldn’t all the so called dalits have got converted to christianity ?

    When Khilji, Ghazni, Aibak, Iltumish, Babar, Akbar and all the mughals upto Aurangazeb ruled with iron hand, why did the dalits not convert from the oppresive indian culture to embrace the ‘egalitarian’ muslim faith ?

    Do these ‘eminent historians’ plan to allege that it was Shivaji who re-converted them to dalit ?

    And after that when the missionaries came and preached for 250 years, enough to convert generations, how come there are so-called dalits around still ?

    Is it then correct to conclude that there were no dalits in india at that time, that they are a recent creation ?

    Surely, the 2% of conversion rate to christianity after proselytizing in india for 2000 years starting from Thomas (merely assuming that crooked yarn to be true), and despite the imperialistic control of 250 years, simply means that the so called dalits did not exist in india. It was created by the brutish british.

    here is a post on varna system and its relevance.

    http://estheppan.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/what-is-the-aim-of-your-life/

    • senthil says:

      Excellent questions estheppan.. you have given a new dimension..

      But from my inference, many dalit communities happen to be those who converted to buddhists, but later returned to hinduism and remained a separate sect.. i dont know how this is true..

    • fallenmonk says:

      And who told you that the dalits did not convert to Buddhism or Jainism? The Pali canon or the other Buddhist accounts are abundant in mentioning events where the people from the lowest of the classes in India were given refuge in Buddha and his Sangha; and in many cases such monks and nuns ended up becoming distinguished themselves in their field. Most of the dalits were already Buddhists and that is the sole reason why they were treated like that by the priests and their chelas after the revival of Brahmanism. For example, even as late as the 16th century there was Buddhism in the Bengal region, but was in a dire state of decay. The Brahmin Sena rulers had invaded the Buddhist Pala dynasty and had imposed their own religion of Brahmanism and its unethical rules of caste system on the people. The Buddhists were derogatorily referred to as “Nede” (which reflects the shaven head of the Buddhist monks and nuns) by the Hindus and were given the worst status and treatment by the people. All this is recorded in the Jaina scripture Sunna Purana. Later when the Muslim invaders came to Bengal, the buddhists pleaded to them to free them of the Brahmin tyranny, and for which who were ready to convert into Islam. Similar events happened all over India.

      There was nothing like “dalit” in ancient India. All were freemen, until the Brahmins came into scene. The accounts of Buddhist literature, Chinese pilgrims, Persian and Greek pilgrims, all attest to the fact that people were generally free in India. But thanks to the great strategy of the priests, we have now the worst and most oppressed and poverty strcken people on Earth.

      • senthil says:

        Mr. Fallen monk.. i could only see anti-brahminism and nothing else in your comment.. come out of the hatred to understand the facts and truths..

        THe first batch of converts to Buddhism were the kshatriyas.. buddha himself is a prince.. and he became popular, not because he was a monk, nor because he preached some thing.. but because he was a prince, and on those days, people reverred their king as god..

        Secondly caste system was not created by any single entity.. it evolved when raajyams were formed.. and it is the british who reshaped the dynamic jaati system in to stagnant caste system..

      • VBNK says:

        You are not just a “Fallen Monk”.
        You are also a “SIMI” Terrorist.
        The term “Sunna” is yours but has got nothing to do with Jainism.

        “Fallen Monk” gives rise to “Black Magician” and a “Venomous Terrorist.”

  11. Incognito says:

    many dalit communities happen to be those who converted to buddhists, but later returned to hinduism and remained a separate sect

    maybe.

    But if they were persecuted, why would not they convert back to buddhism, jainism.

    And when state sponsored terror was unleashed by the proselytizing muslims like khilji till aurangazeb for 1000 years, how come any dalits are left at all ?

    When a muslim is given first right to all resources and when all others were treated as dhimmis, how come dalits chose to remain dhimmis, pay jizya, let go of all rights to resources and suffer from so-called high ‘caste’ people of their own community ?

    If they could become the chosen people and rule over the ‘oppressing’ brahmins by converting into islam, would not any sane person choose that ?

    Isn’t there blatant incongruency there ?

    Further, when britishers ruled for 250 years, proselytizing, would not these dalits chose to convert to christianity and become the rulers themselves ?

    Perhaps it is time to abandon the rome-inspired western world view and the lies that are inherent to it.

    Dhanyavaad

    btw, estheppan is a mere incognito name.

  12. S says:

    It would interest the readers of this blog to know that 95% of Nagaland is Baptist Christian. 87% of the tribals of Mizoram are now Christians. The church-controlled Main Stream Media like NDTV and CNN just do not talk about the North-East and the forced conversions that are taking place there.

    If you google about Nagaland, you will find out that the annual GDP of that small state is one billion dollars (one thousand million dollars) whereas the population is only around 2 million people, most of them tribals still living in their old ways. The Baptist church is milking the natural resources of this state and sending money back to the mother church in the U.S. The same story in Mizoram.

    The churches have allied and the Roman Catholic church is the one that is active in Central and South India, and the Baptist churches from the U.S. south have taken the North-East. These people have formed a strategy to target the vulnerable people like tribals. The so-called “Dalits” are just the people of financially lower classes. Read through their strategy people, they are just trying the old divide and rule, though they are using Main Stream Media to do this.

  13. S says:

    “But thanks to the great strategy of the priests, we have now the worst and most oppressed and poverty strcken people on Earth.”

    From a comment above.

    Christian missionary, you have not seen the worst and most oppressed people on Earth. Do you know where they are ? Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Arabia (try to visit the villages), Sudan, Somalia (the twin religions of peace and love are working here), Rumania, Ethiopia etc. I can go on, but you are too blinded by your cult of bigotry to see the truth.

  14. Pingback: Brahmin Girls Marrying (Attracted towards) NB Boys

  15. VBNK says:

    Dear Senthil,
    It is easy to blame the “British” for destroying the Self-sustaining Indian villages by introducing and forcing the cultivation of the commercial crops.

    However, this was true to some extent during the Muslim rule and also during the rule of the Gupta Empire.
    There was a city ruled by Prince “Bandivarman”.
    I forgot the name of the city.
    The city was built from profits made by the weavers and the cloth merchants.
    The priest of that city’s patron/matron temple inscribed the fact on the stone and expressed his gratitude to the weavers and merchants for being bountiful to the temple and himself.

    What does it mean?
    Even through the process of “Natural Selection”, there can only be one or few predominant occupations in a village / city.
    Now let’s not talk about the tifin centers, shopping mauls etc which are merely the “Backward Linkage effects” of the prosperity driven by one or few predominant occupations.

    • senthil says:

      @VBNK

      /** It is easy to blame the “British” for destroying the Self-sustaining Indian villages by introducing and forcing the cultivation of the commercial crops.
      **/

      Its easy to blame NOT just british, but to blame any one.. blaming is the most easiest and effortless job.. however, its extremely difficult to understand the cause..
      when i try to point out the root cause, people take it as “blaming”.. indians have become so dumb that they could not differentiate b/w genuine case and blaming..

      Some would go further and ridicule as “Britishers had left 60 years back”.. but they dont understand that they transferred power to the colonised minds before leaving..

  16. VBNK says:

    How to come out of the colonial mindset and build a “Humane Society”?

    No doubt, we all are “Groping in Darkness.”

    The darknessed in This present “Kaliyuga” will not be eclipsed by the darknesses to come in future “Kali Yugas” as remarked by a seer.

    Hence, we can very well afford to have positive attitude and can make positive efforts towards dispelling the darkness.

    • senthil says:

      @VBNK

      /** How to come out of the colonial mindset and build a “Humane Society”? **/

      We need to switch back to sanadhana dharma, or the sustainable way of living.

  17. VBNK says:

    What percentage of people deserve to use the internet under the dispensation of the “Sanathana Dharma”?

    • senthil says:

      @VBNK
      /** What percentage of people deserve to use the internet under the dispensation of the “Sanathana Dharma”?
      **/

      Good question :) .. i dont have any concrete answer for this..

  18. VBNK says:

    A person following his/her dharma properly deserves to use the modern communication technology.

    A farmer deserves to know the best prices and can hence dispatch the product through the “Commodity Exchange”. A Fisherman or a boat with a group of Fishermen deserves the GPS based communication system and NRSA (National Remote Sensing Agency) based Dynamic resource mapping system so that the livelyhoods can be protected.

    A Cattle or a Dairy Farm owner needs to know the latest developments in the R&D.

    The list can be extended further.

    • senthil says:

      @VBNK,

      We cannot generalise like this.. its not about technology, but the purpose for which the technology is used, which decides whether it is sustainable or not..

      Sustainability is NOT measured in individual selfish desires.. rather, it is measured at an environment level..

      and above that, there is a concept of dharma.. Commercialising agriculture is adharma..

  19. VBNK says:

    Dear Senthil,
    Dharma is all about sharing and caring and not about trading.
    However, trading was well recognized by Sanathana Dharma subject to the condition that the entire World follows the Sanathana Dharma.

    There was a very famous Shipping merchant in the time of the Emperor Dushyanta, Father of the Legendary Emperor Bharata.
    He owned untold quantity of wealth.

    This implies that India was well connected with the rest of the World even in various Krita yugas and Threta yugas of the past Maha Yugas in this and in the previous Manvantaras.

    When the proportion of Adharma increases on the earth, people adhereing to Dharma choose to isolate themselves – thus causing the gradual shrinking of the trade and trade potential.

    Now, we Indians merely own 2.4% of the World’s Real Estate.
    Even here, we are infested by various serious problems – including the Marxism, the Missioneries, the Jihadies, the struggle to meet the ends etc.

    • senthil says:

      @VBNK

      /** Dharma is all about sharing and caring and not about trading. **/

      This is wrong interpretation of dharma.. infact, it is a Semitic definition created for dharama, which does not apply here

  20. VBNK says:

    What do you mean by “Semetic” definition?

    If the farmer is responsible for production of agricultural output, a Vaishya is responsible for the uninterrupted supply with the support of the Kshatriyas.

    If a farmer has to lead a life of subsistance, should a Vaishya lead a life of Luxury and Oppulance?

    • senthil says:

      /** If a farmer has to lead a life of subsistance, should a Vaishya lead a life of Luxury and Oppulance?
      **/

      Farmer were living a self-sustainable life. and vaishyas doesnt lead luxury life.. luxury indicates a western model of enjoying life.. (ie Boha).. the top 3 varnas lived a religious life, where boham is just part of the life.

  21. VBNK says:

    Excellent.

    Lord Rama might recommend you to be born in Krita Yuga.

    Let the Solar energy and Biomass based energy become sustainable.
    People can then focus on Dharma instead of exploiting the natural resources.
    If all are Hygienic, there is no need for untouchability.

    Let’s hope for the best in the next few centuries which can potentially be eternally successful.

    • senthil says:

      @VBNK
      Thanks.. i wish you should understand more about our culture, and this is possible only by unlearning the macaulite propoganda..

      I dont know from where you are from.. but i strongly request you to explore the history of your own community and your region..

      Our concept of villages is NOT understood properly..

      • Badri Narayanan says:

        Wow!! i read nt only ur article but also all d comments.Ur correct understanding of concept blewing me away.Stay Blessed always!!!

      • senthil says:

        @Badri,

        What i wrote are ground reality.. i just observed in and around, and wrote it.. the urban people are completely dis-connected from the rural setup, and hence they have no other option but to succumb to media and academic propoganda.. Hindutva is such urban reaction to these academic propoganda, and they are doing more harm than good..

  22. Pingback: Urbanites – the new age colonialists – 2 – Farmer’s woes | Senthilraja’s blog

  23. Mitchell says:

    Seems more like the transition from one era to another wasnt done right dosent India have
    Treatment Facilities where all your Feces and Urine go to the Treatment Facilitie so it can be treated so it dosent become a Environmental problem etc

    Also your point

    “2. The so called secular writers, human right activists (read communists), and other torch bearers of social justice, live in urban centers, probably in posh bungalows, utilise the very same dalit people for cleaning their toilets, and septic tanks, and also pay a tax to the municipality who further employs dalits to clean the sewages. Are these writers not part of a system that forces dalits to do menial jobs?”

    I do love your point which made me laugh with the “Other Torch Beares of Social Justice” your right these so called Human Activists are blind and deludid there the ones who seem to allow Crime or other Social Justice get out of control when they get into power and soften the law etc and go on you cannot treat Crimnals like this or some other stupid idea but dont mind other injustice to go on there most of the time Hypocrite lefties

    And true they probably are well off also love to give out money to anybody while Hard Working tax payers have to give them the money to do so. I see that they are doing good to an extent yes helping others is good but not blindly and stupidly but most of all latley they seem to have an Air of Self Importance maybe its an ego trip

    • senthil says:

      /** Treatment Facilities where all your Feces and Urine go to the Treatment Facilitie so it can be treated so it dosent become a Environmental problem etc
      **/

      Mitchel,

      Nature itself is a self-cleaning system.. In urban centers, we dont give that natural space for fecal and urine matters to decompose, and hence has to be dumped to sewage and then to the sea, polluting everywhere..

      The problem is Western Urban system ..

  24. M.Prabakaran says:

    Please read Dr.Ambedkar’s books titled “who were the shudras?” and “annihilation of caste” and other related books.Read books written by learned authors about Indian caste system and history.It would help understand the issues of Indian Social Life in a better light.
    Prabakaran from Tirunelveli.

  25. Swami says:

    Senthil,

    In US, mostly its the mexicans who do similar job that we are talking about in this blog.as on today, to earn a living with the skills that they have, they do these kind of physical labour intensive jobs. that doesnt mean that mexicans are not there in other areas of work. its just that their current financial position doesnt put majority of them as “engineers” and so majority of them do this kind of job. i am not sure if they consider themselves to be oppressed by americans. In other words, mexicans are dalits of america..

    but if we go to them and “brain wash” them and inplant an idea stating “you are being exploited” then its a completely different story.

    like you said, the fundamental reason for having such a job area in society is because of the western urban set up. west has handled it in a better way by automating lots of stuff or uses tools/machines so that a human doesnt feel humilatied doing such jobs. may be we need to do that in india as well.

    • senthil says:

      @swami,

      The point here is that it is western urban system that is responsible for forcing dalits to clean Night Soil and other menial jobs.. The traditional hindu society is unjustly accused for a wrong that they never committed.. that’s what we are focussing on..

  26. Swami says:

    Came across this link..

    Godess for english language!!!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12355740

    • Suresh B says:

      Superb ! What pride people take in becoming Mlechcas and Rakshasas. But they still want to ‘worship’ in the ‘dharmic’ way by building a ‘temple’. Slavery was never so sexy. As some one said, freedom of speech does not imply freedom of thought.

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  28. vyas says:

    Senthil – What’s your stand on the people of IVC who had in-house lavatories where they defecated. They too had enormous agricultural fields which could have been using for defecating. But then why did they opt for in-house solutions?

    • senthil says:

      How do we know they are lavatories for defecation? How can we ever find, where they Defecated? These are just some hypothesis, which we should take at face value..

      To be frank, i havent studied those IVC designs..

      • vyas says:

        //How do we know they are lavatories for defecation?//

        Senthil – While I’m not sure if they found samples of feces in the nearby area, It has been proved beyond doubt that those were indeed lavatories used for defecation. There is no question about that. The only thing that needs to be found out is who did they use those for. Did they use them for general public or for any specific class of people? This is what we need to find out.

        //To be frank, i havent studied those IVC designs..//

        I think you should spend some time studying them. They are available everywhere on the web. You might even want to open a debate on the same and others can give their inputs. The most hot discussion going on currently is if the IVC was a precursor to the later Indian civilizations or not. Since the script is still not deciphered nobody is able to say anything for sure.

      • senthil says:

        Can you pls give me some references on this?

  29. vyas says:

    //Can you pls give me some references on this?//

    They are spread all over the web. I’m just giving two samples below, an article and a video documentary.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/primaryhistory/indus_valley/technology_and_jobs/

  30. prasad says:

    dear senthil,
    congratulations for a perceptive write up. for your age somehow you are quite on the spot. it is sheer good fortune that a combination of factors put you on the right approach to our social history. in your write up i find the echo of some of my own conclusions which i arrived at after more than thirty years of thought, observation and study. in this connection i offer the following comments.
    1 it is true that india has been predominantly rural. this fact obviated the need for scavenging. but also remember that there have been many big cities in india all through our history. so either the design of the city must have been such that it did not necessitate scavengers or there must be some other arrangement. this needs further investigation.
    2 brahmins, to my knowledge are the poorest among the ‘elites’ of india. a number of front ranking scholars, scientists and teachers were economically poor. and dharma sastras like the bodhayana dharma sutras forbade them from taking to profitable occupations like agriculture but to concentrate on the function of learning and teaching vedic knowledge which is by far the most tedious, exacting, unremunerative and thankless avocation. if any one has doubts in this regard, he may consult the collection of discourses by kanchi paramacharya titled hindu dharma, published by bharatiya vidya bhavan, bombay to know about the daily routine of a vedic brahmin. those brahmins who got landed property, got it for taking up other occupations like statesmanship, army duties etc.,which is not the topic here. we are talking about the generality of brahmins. so most of the brahmins lived on uncha vritti or madhukaram or similar lowly occupations – picking the grains that remained after the farmer collects his produce in the field is uncha vritti. collecting food from door to door like the bee collects honey from flowers is madhukaram. the latter is now called begging but there is lot of difference between the two in attitudes of givers and takers and also in the social consequences. but that is a different topic. what is relevant here is that brahmins used and are using open fields as toilets like any other hindu group.
    3.it is true that urbanisation brought in the need for scavenging function in a big way. but there is something sinister in the present round of urbanisation compared to the earlier ones. after the advent of muslim invaders, the situation took an ugly turn. they, as you rightly grasped, used the captured pows and also those whom they perceive as hurdles to their ambitions and wanted to humiliate and destroy. i can assert on the basis of personal observation that many scavengers, even in big cities belong not to the usual dalit, that is low caste, people, but rajputs with distinct skin color, self-image and ferocity. history of banjaras tells us that many rajput clans, especially during akbar’s time and later on, took vows to oppose the invader by adopting unusual life style. they left their forts and entered forests and also took to transport and such other functions. however those who were captured by the invader, were compelled to clean the muslim toilets. later economic compulsions led to these people serving hindus too. i can cite book on this topic but it is in telugu. if you know telugu, let me know, i shall provide the details. secondly, islam is an urban civilization(?) according to the historian mohd.habib. i have the reference but it is not at hand at present.
    4.it is also true that the british christians exacerbated the problems of hindus, including the dalit problem, greatly. both the muslim and christian rule rendered large sections of hindus( of all castes including brahmins) paupers and fallen socially. all those people took to whatever occupations they could take up, a fresh study of economic and social history of hindus during the rule of alien religious tyrants brings out unbelievable truths into light. i am doing my bit in that direction in telugu. one book- growth of sc, st, obcs during muslim rule by k s lall, voice of india, new delhi will give some useful information. for information about how british rule virtually created the dowry problem, see veena oldenberg’s book, for information on how the local hindu militia and martial groups were liquidated by the british imperialist, see nicholas dirk’s castes of mind. but mr.dirk is not dependable for his interpretation of the data. we can use his data and come to our own conclusions. another useful book is another book by k s lall whose title i forgot.
    5 your contention that actual observation and experience of hindu way of life as the sure source of history is a sound one. but the present education system muddled our brains so much that most of us are unable to apply simple logic to what we see and come up with pertinent questions. all the time we frame wrong questions based on skewed logic and draw grotesque conclusions. when there are more answers to a question which are all equally plausible, we purposely choose the most hurting, humiliating one as if to demonstrate our progressive, dispassionate, and scientific temparament. this is one kind of dhimmitude.
    there are many other points on which i am interested to comment. but i shall stop here. continue your good work. good luck. prasad.

    • senthil says:

      Dear Prasad,

      Thanks for your comment.. a bulk of urban indians are disconnected from the traditional bharath, and hence lost to the western propoganda.. its good that we start to have our own thinking and analysis..

      The education system currently unleashed are all done by urban indians, and the rural people do not have any freedom or choice over it..

    • Zed says:

      I greatly appreciate the reference to the book in Telugu. Regards

  31. swami says:

    Senthil,

    After hearing few arguments from the other side, i again have this question. Is there any proof that can be provided to prove that the so called “Dalit oppression” didnt happen before britishers/mughals?

    In regards to oppression, if you were to mention the mistakes from the dharmic traditions/ did what would they be? I do not have a counter argument to present when someone talks about the dalit oppression. Any thoughts?

    • vyas says:

      While the Dalit oppression has largely been politicized, there is no denying of the fact that oppression by a section of the society against another section (not necessarily Dalits, which is a false identity in my opinion) continues to this day. We simply cannot keep justifying the same quoting the Shastras or Jaathi rituals as a way to escape out of it. There are certain areas where a certain section of people are treated even more badly than animals, though I agree that these are largely exceptions. Still such practices must be demolished.
      Dalits have been programmed to think constantly that they are being oppressed (see the below video link). Just because some of them are involved in scavenging in most of the areas, they have been taught to feel inferior about themselves and their profession. I once remember meeting a scavenger in the US who had been involved in that job for three generations and he was very proud of that profession. He had access to latest technologies for cleaning the garbage. He never felt inferior about his job. This is how I envision the future of India to be. In my opinion, technology can help us achieve it provided we put it to right use.Today almost every jathi person is made to feel inferior about his profession and urged to adopt english education. This has resulted in acute shortage of labor. This is especially true of TamilNadu because of the DK idiots. We may be proud to say that we have the highest number of BE grads in the country, but at what cost? Almost 90% of them are fit for nothing but being coolies (including myself). This is not the case with North. They are still very proud of their Jathi profession and continue to do it with utmost pride, but we brand them as being downtrodden.

      • senthil says:

        There is no Scavenging in our traditional Hindu Society.. Proudly say that in any forum.. It is urban systems which has forced Dalits in to scavenging, and Hindu society is in NO way responsible for that..

        Never justify scavenging.. Its white man’s problem, and we should not take the burden of their guilt..

    • senthil says:

      There is no Dalit Oppression in Hindu society.. there is no word called dalit..

      The communities which are classified as SC were Puthra Varkam for the rulers of their village.. ie, they are to be protected by the rulers like their child.. These communities have hereditary roles in the affairs of the village.. For eg, Mahars (to which ambedkar belong), were the village policemen..

      Why should you answer those people who just throw mere allegations..

      If anyone says dalits were oppressed, just ask them how they are oppressed.. these urban fools will give idiotic answers like “Dalits are NOT allowed to study in engineering colleges” etc..

      That’s why i am insisting that we need to study the native administrative systems of every ethnic region in our country.. only then we can understand the dalit issue deeply..

  32. vyas says:

    //Never justify scavenging.. Its white man’s problem, and we should not take the burden of their guilt..//

    Agreed, but there is no need to feel inferior about being a scavenger which is what I’m trying to emphasize.

    //There is no Scavenging in our traditional Hindu Society//

    You simply cannot repeat this statement without appropriate data. There might not have been manual scavenging as we have today but one simply cannot deny our drainage systems. This is exactly what I pointed out in the video link in my previous post about the drainage systems in IVC. Also it’s unacceptable to say that 100% of the population defecated in the open fields. There must have been some other system of scavenging which needs to be found out.

    • senthil says:

      /** You simply cannot repeat this statement without appropriate data. There might not have been manual scavenging as we have today but one simply cannot deny our drainage systems. This is exactly what I pointed out in the video link in my previous post about the drainage systems in IVC
      **/

      Forget about IVC.. its distant past.. there had been so many nagaras built in the past 2000 years.. do they have any scavenging systems?

      In my earlier post, i have reproduced Nagara planning in Chanakya’s Artha Shasthra.. is there any scavenging mentioned there?

      You need to understand the diff b/w present day Economic Brothels/ghettos and our traditional Nagaras.. Today’s metros and cities were concrete slums.. whereas our Nagaras were well designed, with enough natural space for each house..

      We cannot just generalise from one IVC site..

      /** Agreed, but there is no need to feel inferior about being a scavenger which is what I’m trying to emphasize.
      **/
      Scavenging is Inhuman as per our own dharma.. It has not been mentioned in any smritis or sutras.. why should we defend it? Is it because we had accustomed to western systems that we are defending it?

      • vyas says:

        //Forget about IVC.. its distant past.. there had been so many nagaras built in the past 2000 years.. do they have any scavenging systems?//

        Why should we forget it? Just because it contradicts your arguments? In fact IVC was a civilization that groomed just after the Mahabharatha period when our dharmic cult was at its peak. It was the later periods that got adulterated with abundant influence from Buddhism and Jainism. In my opinion it is IVC that we need to study in depth to understand our dharmic cult.

        //In my earlier post, i have reproduced Nagara planning in Chanakya’s Artha Shasthra.. is there any scavenging mentioned there?//

        We just cannot come to early conclusions on this yet. Just because Artha Shasthra has no mention of scavenging doesn’t mean there existed no system for that. Just read the link below and you’ll understand what i’m saying.

        http://books.google.co.in/books?id=-c6mNYorw7QC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=arthashastra+scavenging&source=bl&ots=BxYQb1cg_K&sig=Opksj5Y2DARRPvzc_uF3SMSc1gw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t-2mUa_1HNGtrAeptoDACg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=arthashastra%20scavenging&f=false

        //Scavenging is Inhuman as per our own dharma.. //

        Agreed, but I’d make a small correction. Manual scavenging is inhuman.

        // It has not been mentioned in any smritis or sutras//

        You can’t expect everything to be mentioned in our smritis or sutras as per your own argument a while ago. There is mention of only Varna in our scriptures and not a single word is written about Jaathis in our ancient scriptures. Can we then conclude there were no jaathis at all?

      • vyas says:

        // Is it because we had accustomed to western systems that we are defending it?//

        Pls understand. Nobody is defending manual scavenging. The West scavengers who do not touch even a micro-inch of mucus. They have high end machinery to manage scavenging and this guy is responsible for supervising it. You can’t expect everyone to defecate in the open. We need a system to dispose the waste. This was present in every civilization but only the method was different.
        Also you seem to be too much attached to the past. We don’t have to blindly follow everything mentioned in the past barring just the fundamental constructs. The smritis are just that. They change based on changing needs. Only shrutis are unchanging and there is not a single materialistic view point mentioned in the Shrutis, so it will hold true for time immemorial. I don’t support Jaathis and Varna just because it was followed in the past. I support it because I personally feel that they help build one of the finest forms of social constructs that embraces heredity and lineage. Without them we could have come this far into the future when other civilizations simply perished.

  33. senthil says:

    @vyas,

    /** Why should we forget it? Just because it contradicts your arguments? In fact IVC was a civilization that groomed just after the Mahabharatha period when our dharmic cult was at its peak.
    **/
    I told you to forget it, to focus on recent past.. there were so many bharathiya nagaras, which continued till 100 yeasr before.. what was their design? Instead of studying this, we are obsessed with ancient past.

    Secondly, the life style of people of IVC cannot be found out.. what is being explained now is just a hypothesis..

    /** We just cannot come to early conclusions on this yet. Just because Artha Shasthra has no mention of scavenging doesn’t mean there existed no system for that. Just read the link below and you’ll understand what i’m saying.
    **/

    Read the agamas which have very strict rules on how one should de-fecate.. there it says, one should defecate far away from home, and in the soil.. All madathipathis still follow this rule.. The best example is Kanchi Sankaracharya.. Just look at how they de-fecate in their mutt? Do they have toilets?

    In bharathiya nagaras, there is enough natural space in every house for urination and de-fecation..

    It is NOT our culture or dharma to have tiolets.. bcoz our civilization is based on utmost hygiene & purity.

    When we have ample evidence to prove that we dont have any toilets, why r u searching for any evidence to prove otherwise?

    /** Agreed, but I’d make a small correction. Manual scavenging is inhuman. **/

    Every scavenging is adharma.. we should never justify it.. rather, we should use it against the westerners & urban liberals who abuse our society..

    /** You can’t expect everything to be mentioned in our smritis or sutras as per your own argument a while ago.
    **/

    But our agamas categorically say that de-fecation should be done away from home..

    /** Can we then conclude there were no jaathis at all? **/

    I have explained you numerous times, that jathi is a function of dhesam.. varna dharma is just a framework, whereas jathis are physical implementation of that..

    For eg, manusmriti says that a king should rely on forest dwellers to fix boundaries of villages.. when there is any dispute, the decision of forest dwellers is final.. Will you say there is no jathi called “Forest Dweller” ? No.. its just generic name.. kuruvars, irulars, chenchus, gonds etc are actual names of forest dwellers..

    • vyas says:

      // I told you to forget it, to focus on recent past.. there were so many bharathiya nagaras, which continued till 100 yeasr before.. what was their design? Instead of studying this, we are obsessed with ancient past.

      Secondly, the life style of people of IVC cannot be found out.. what is being explained now is just a hypothesis..//

      You are talking as if we’ve been successful in decoding other bharathiya lifestyles besides IVC. Those too are just speculations only. Till now no one is able to decode the lifestyle followed in Sangam period. There are thousands of view points expressed and none of them have largely been accepted.

      //Read the agamas which have very strict rules on how one should de-fecate.. there it says, one should defecate far away from home, and in the soil//

      I have to double check this but if it was mentioned it could not have been prescribed for all. I’d urge you to quote some phrases about this from our scriptures. They must have said so because they anticipated that human waste could be given back to nature as manure thereby closing the loop in the ecological cycle. Countries like America are exactly doing it right now but in a different way. In fact in India, in some states the manure from human waste is being used to generate Bio gas in association with organizations like Sulabh. Why are you so obsessed with the agamas? Back then, there were no sophisticated methods to maintain hygiene if defecation happened in a place inside or close to one’s living place. So they decided to keep that process far away from home. Today with access to modern technology we have high sophisticated methods to maintain hygiene, so what’s wrong with having toilets inside the house? But I agree that this rule might have been explicitly imposed for Brahmins because they resided close to temple and defecating in an area nearby the temple is not only unhygienic but it’s completely against the sanctity of the deity. My opinion is to use agamas as guidelines and not as procedural code books.

      //In bharathiya nagaras, there is enough natural space in every house for urination and de-fecation..//

      It was back then when our population was minuscule compared to what it is right now. That solution is not scalable for a population of 1.2 billion people.

      //It is NOT our culture or dharma to have tiolets.. bcoz our civilization is based on utmost hygiene & purity.//

      Again it only shows obsession with agamas. What’s your problem if that same “utmost hygiene” is achieved with in-house toilets too? If you argue that the definition of ancient hygiene is different from that of modern one, then give a detailed description of the ancient hygiene and why modern methods will not be able to address it.

  34. senthil says:

    /** You can’t expect everyone to defecate in the open. We need a system to dispose the waste. This was present in every civilization but only the method was different.
    **/

    This is how our agamas prescribe.. if you speak about dharma, you need to follow it.. otherwise, you can very well say that “My convenience and comfort is important than dharma.. western systems offer that and i follow that”.. no one will question you..

    But please dont manipulate our dharmic system to conform to your western life style..

    /** Also you seem to be too much attached to the past. We don’t have to blindly follow everything mentioned in the past barring just the fundamental constructs
    **/

    There is no compusion to follow anything.. but pls dont twist it or manipulate it to your convenience.. The Hindutvavadis are exactly doing this,

    If we have unquestionable commitment towards our dharma and civilization, we will use all existing technologies toward that..

    For eg, there is concept of dry latrines, which can be adopted.. there is concept of dry pits, which could be adopted.. we can be innovative in designing a building which conforms to our dharmic life style..

    But urban hindus dont have the freedom or resources to do all these.. and more importantly they dont have the mindset to come out of present urban comforts, eventhough they know its totally adharmic and exploitative..

    Why this double standard?

  35. Surya Ramachandran says:

    There were villages with manual scavenging. I have confirmed this.

    • senthil says:

      Can you please give specific examples?

      • Surya Ramachandran says:

        sure, give me your mail id, I will mail you the details

        • senthil says:

          Can you pls post it publicly? or is it sensitive?

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            I enquired an old person and found that there was manual scavenging in his village during childhood. He said that in his childhood there used to be manual scavengers, who used to take “shit” in a tray, and place it over their head. There were dry toilets there. This was around half a century ago, and he told that it has been banned since his childhood. I will not reveal the name of the village publicly.

            You can find many references in google itself: For example here is page from wiki.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_scavenging

            The following is opinion of Narendra Modi on Valmiki community:
            “I do not believe that they have been doing this job just to sustain their livelihood. Had this been so, they would not have continued with this type of job generation after generation….At some point of time, somebody must have got the enlightenment that it is their (Valmikis’) duty to work for the happiness of the entire society and the Gods; that they have to do this job bestowed upon them by Gods; and that this job of cleaning up should continue as an internal spiritual activity for centuries. This should have continued generation after generation. It is impossible believe that their ancestors did not have the choice of adopting any other work or business.”

            The info of this community can be found in the wiki page itself.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhangi

          • swami says:

            @Surya,

            From your own Wiki Link

            /*Manual scavenging is said to have started in 1214 in Europe when the first public toilets appeared.[2] The water closet was invented by John Harrington in 1596. In 1870, S.S. Helior invented the flush type toilet, and it became common in the Western world.
            */

            It says it started in Europe. How did bhaeema pooped? Were these valmiki jaathi people carrying it since then?

            /*The British administrators organized systems for removing the night soil and employed bhangis*/

            When you read modi’s statement, since you are a hindu, when the word “GOD” is spelt, you visualize your god and you think hindus did it to these jaathis. Read it as if you are a mughal or a british and the context changes all of a sudden.

            though i dont know the reality, i am just throwing this alternative view.

          • Surya Ramachandran says:

            @Swami
            Thanks for pointing these out. Yes I did realized that Manual scavenging was started in Europe when toilets were first built. I had found that toilets existed in the village concerned, as early as the 1960s. And this village is not so popular. This place was NOT under British jurisdiction (I will confirm that again). May be some one could have constructed it.

            Of course in my own village there were NO toilets

          • senthil says:

            @surya,

            There is no doubt, that the toilets existed in many villages for past 200 years.. the question is whether manual scavenging is part of our caste profession, as being accused now?

            It is the british who first created a category called dalits, and made a scheduled category thus permanently creating a division and freezing caste identities.. it is they who introduced toilets and made dalits to clean them.. right?

            Shoot at the right target..

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