India before British Invasion – Dharampal’s findings

Its getting more and more clear that the real history of india is not what we study.  Particularly the works of dharamapal, had enlightened many of the young  indians of our real history.  Atleast, it has proved that what we learn about our history is not true.

Just presenting the works of dharampal in bullet points. (More about dharampal in http://www.dharampal.net)

  • To the British darkness and ignorance had wholly different meanings and to the majority of them, these terms conveyed not any ignorance of arts and crafts or technology, or aesthetics but rather the absence of the knowledge of Christianity and its scriptural heritage.
  • Peasants, artisans, those engaged in the manufacture of iron and steel, or in the various processes of its flourishing indigenous textile industry, or its surgeons and medical men, even many of its astronomers and astrologers belonged to this predominant section i.e. Sudras is unquestionable.
  •   Some of the important changes brought about the British were (i) revenue enhancement and centralization, (ii) attempts at breaking the sense of community (geographical, or based on occupation or kinship) amongst the people of India, (iii) reducing their consumption to the minimum through higher taxation and lowering of wage rates, and (iv) an imposition of newer concepts of property rights and laws.
  • They created a system of landlordism, ryotwari and peasant indebtedness.
  • Deliberate & planned lowering of the wages of Indians.

Caste

  • When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the rajas in different parts of India had also been from amongst such castes which have been placed in the sudra varna.
  • Yet it can, perhaps also be argued that the existence of caste has added to the tenacity of Indian society, to its capacity to survive and after lying low to be able to stand up again.
  • The British demonized caste because it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance more difficult.
  • Today’s backward classes or Sudras cultural and economic backwardness is post 1800 due to impact of British economic policies.
  • Madras Presidency 1822 survey showed sudras and castes below formed 70 per cent to 80 per cent of the total students in the Tamil speaking areas.
  • Some of today’s Bihar’s notified tribes were whose ancestors were warriors and gave unceasing battle to the British till they got exhausted and succumbed to the overwhelming British power. Besides being warriors, their main occupations are said to have been of ironsmith (Iuhar) etc.

Agriculture

  •         In 1804 according to The Edinburgh Review wages of the Indian agricultural laborer were also much more than British counter part.
  •         There is a paper by Capt. Halcott on the drill plough employed in south India. He has said that he never imagined a drill plough considered as a modern European invention, at work in remote village in India
  •         High Yields were on account of the variety of seeds available to the Indian peasant, the sophistication and simplicity of his tools, and the extreme care and labor he expended in tending to his fields and crops.

Industry

  • Around 1800 India had 15-20 lakh weavers with mining being major industrial activity. Due to British policies by 1820 Indian industry was on its knees.
  • There are accounts of the Indian process of making steel which was called ‘wootz’. The British experts who examined samples of ‘wootz’ sent to them by one Dr. Helenus Scott have commented that it is decidedly superior compared in any other steel they have seen.
  •       Incidentally, modern plastic surgery in Britain is stated by its inventor to have been derived from and developed after the observation and study of the Indian practice from 1790 onwards.
  • Because of the British desire to invest newly acquired British capital, a new structure of industrialization began to be established in various parts of India, especially round Calcutta and Bombay, by about 1880.
  • The larger proportion of the historical and traditional professionals of Indian Industry however, even today, work outside the modern industrial complex, and mostly work individually and on their own. In the idiom of today they would form a fairly large proportion of the ‘Backward’ and ‘Other Backward’ castes.
  • According to current findings the India-China region produced around 73 per cent of the industrial manufactures of the world around 1750.
  •        Cloth was manufactured in practically all the 400 districts. Many districts of south India had 10,000 to 20,000 looms in each district even around 1810. Also India had some 10,000 furnaces for the manufacture of iron and steel. Indian steel was considered of very high quality and in the early decades of the nineteenth century, it was being used by the British for the making of surgical instruments.
  • In 1763 smallpox was consciously and deliberately introduced in North America by the British military commander to kill local population.
  •    One of the major characteristics of India has been its emphasis on communities based on shared localities as well as relations of kinship termed as jatis, in contrast to the preference for individuation in non-Slav Europe. It was complementarities and relatedness amongst groups within localities, and more so within regions, which has shaped India’s polity for the past two thousand years and more. This interrelatedness and the consensus, which grew out of it, seem to be the major elements that define the Indian concept of dharma.
  •  India needs to focus on agriculture, education, forging close relations with the Buddhist countries of South East Asia & Far East but an important priority should be to re-establish self esteem, courage, community feeling, and collective freedom
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75 Responses to India before British Invasion – Dharampal’s findings

  1. Amazing post Senthil. Expected nothing less from you. Why is it that this aspect is ignored by historians even today. Why is Romila more respected than the others?

    • Sant Singh says:

      whole world is no so plain and can be interpreted in few lines, majorityof reader need extensive and wide knowledge with practical experience,life of earth for some it is enjoyment,but for majority is continuous work,service,in advance society where centralised system totally controled everything making majorty of public slave,drug,sex,liqour is only tax source ,can we dream a society such harmonius, peaceful ,without any central authority, that is unimaginable in world history,,europe communism,capitalism,socialism failed,,now india is going to become centre of global crony capitalism, majority of people are fighting for themself ,law,justice is totally failed, how long we will able to degenerate our society aping foreigner model,,india lived for 1000 years without any political unheavel and tolerated everything with peace ,one should learn from history and essence of bharat tantra,,it is marvallous debate

  2. psenthilraja says:

    Thanks archana..
    Romila is made to be more respected.. The fact that these truths are ignored, is because today’s historians are full of people with pre-defined agenda, and not for fair analysis of history..

    The complete capture of indian intellectual space by marxists had done so much damage to our psyche.. now there is lot of realisation, with solid proofs..

    I think the following online book will reveal a lot of such conspiracy, that too by a foreigner..

    http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/negaind/ch2.htm

  3. micheal says:

    wow your so cool

  4. micheal says:

    jk jk this site sucks

  5. senthilraja says:

    Thanks michael for your comment

  6. lokaksheman says:

    Nee yar?.
    I’m a brahmin.
    I have met many brahmins who think that the caste system is bad.
    I have NOT met any shudra who says that the caste system is good.
    So..who are you?.

  7. senthil says:

    lokaksheman… I am a shudra.. hope, you have met a shudra now who says caste is good.. :)

    Actually, there are lot of things that are mis-represented and manipulated.. With the outburst of internet, various thoughts and historic truths started reaching people..

    In that, dharamapl’s work was most revealing.. From a national perspective, and if we got to think beyond what the intellectuals write from their AC room, then we might not understand this caste system, but a lot other things..

    I just wanted fair analysis of our society.. let’s accept the wrongs.. but also, lets accept the truth, denied for so long.

  8. venkat says:

    Romila is said to be a stooge of Americans. In fact the institute he heads is financed 100 % by her American masters. But what for ? To create a smokescreen between the Indians and their past.

    Romilla has been chosen despite her marxist leaning by the Americans speaks volumes. The policy of ‘there is no permanent enemy. But only permanent interests” is clearly visible here.

    America or its foot sitter, Britain, will not like India realising its past glory and they want them to be always feeling inferior to their western counterparts. But now, Romila will soon be replaced since she has become too visible. Modi has returned, HP has turned saffron, Karnataka is roaring, and many are following.

    The ‘game’ has been ferreted open . Moropant pingle and Dr Kalyan team has found a treasure of history in the north west of India. What they found out was that
    1. The Mythic river Saraswati was real
    2. The Mohanjadaro and Harappa and, – hold your breath- 2600 similar sites belong to one of the MOST CIVILISED OF CIVILISATIONS- THE INDUS- SARASWATI CIVILATION. They were not Dravidian, as trumpeted by Romila and co. They are Sanatanic in Character and culture. There were lingas, Om symbols, yagnya kundas for fire rituals- homas.

    So welcome all, into the millennium of the only true dharma- Sanatana Dharma.
    Venkat

  9. Kumaresan ramalingam says:

    Caste system is as old as the Vedas and it is very bad system created by Aryans. Its will know fact and everyone knows… Now days people are trying to cover up there nonsense by blaming British. Of course British exploited the system very will to rule India.

    • sant \singh says:

      in usa,,10% rich,30% middle class,,65% youth live single,women has 20 partner in their life,huge police, still their is crime of horrendous nature,if police is disbanded,how usa can manage to rule,everyone need to pay tax,buy insurance,and work 16 hours to pay rent and food, do u think it is right society which is founded on socalled hypocracy of paper money and paid media, worker ,farmer are always dwindling lot with frustration and mental disorder,depression ,suicide are so rampant ,it is successful society,,half of death is because of junk food, smoking cancer, rising,,it is perfact society, caste never existed in india but existed skillful profession,beyond 10 km,no one know who is belonged to what caste,,

    • scorpian says:

      who is aryan , do u have any clue ?, .Aryan does not even exist in sanskrit language , its arya and its was massaged by the britishers to aryans and along with that they divided a single race into two one aryan and other dravidas, >dravidiyan does exist in sanskrit and was first coined by guru sankracharya , it means a person which belongs to a land where three ocean meets .It has nothing to do with race , british coined to make us feel inferior thinking that we are some who hav been inherited by them and so we should accept their supermacy without any regret . DNA study of north and south people has showed that we have the same DNA .so a single race .what do you know about caste system , british perpetuated this dravidian concept to such a extent that a dravidian community in tamil nadu was pleading in front of britishers at the time when they were leaving india to continue ruling them as they do not want to be ruled by the democracy and that guy even pleaded Jinnah to consider it as a pakistani state but jinnah refused his proposal saying that muslim community do not have anything common with them . He was such a moron . and regarding caste system , You must be knowing initially caste system was not on the basis of birth it was tagged as the kind of job you are doing . If I ma a doing a job of a sudra and my son is in the battel field he wont be called a sudra anymore ,untill it underwent some change and britishers made it even more strict by defining it as something which come by birth.

      • senthil says:

        pls avoid using the term Caste system.. only then you will understand the issue..

        The jathi and varna are always birth based.. and every jathi took a role in the society..

  10. Sita says:

    What Dr.Dharampal has said only underlined what most of us who thought of our society as an Indian ,have been thinking.The British/Christian propaganda of Caste system’s atrocities didnot answer many questions and the whole theory had a lot of holes in it.This is not to say that individuals who had wrong attitudes and perverted sense of power were not there;only that it cannot be attributed to our religion or culture.There have been Saints consistently telling us not to disrespect anyone,many people had heeded those teachings,but there were a few rotten apples who didn’t and who brought infamy not only to themselves but also to their creed[this is present in our society /behaviour even today].
    The trouble was the british ,for various reasons, looked at our society through glasses tinted by their prejudice and habits.They simply assumed that our society also operates in the same way as their feudal systems.They had no concept of dharma which governed everyone be they a brahmin or shudra.because THEY JUST DIDN’T KNOW BETTER. [the same way Duryodhana thought that everyone but him was a bad person-the british merely projected their faults onto us,their subjects].The saddest part is that the thought-process of the british has been absorbed by our political parties for the sake of power.So they refuse to thjink indipendently and use logic.,because finding a scape-goat is easier than rectifying ourselves for the benefit of Society.We cannot cure psychological blindnessof people who refuse to see reason,and who find it convenient to blame others instead of working for progress,both their own and the society’s.It is easier to think in terms of ‘us’ and ‘them’.

  11. vedamgopal says:

    letter written by Lord Maculae addressed to the British Parliament in 1835 – copy of the original letter is still available at Mamalpuram museum.
    “I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage and therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will loose their self-esteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation”

  12. namaroopa says:

    hello friend,
    i have found several old books of british on the internet. i alone cannot study them all. i think many of these books were not studied before. so i am looking for like minded people to organise and study these books to discover many more secrets. please contact me on email address. i think with about 10-100 people . we can do a lot of reasearch and defeat the baddies.

    • senthil says:

      Thanks namaroopa for your initiative.. can you pls share those links here for the benefit of the readers?

    • madan says:

      namaroopa i m madan here,I spend my long time with Dharampalji at sevagram I m very happy to see this webside and people like you who r reading these books.I m also intrested if i can help to tell the real history of Bharat

  13. namaroopa says:

    macaulay’s 1835 speech was not made in the british parliament. it must have been made in india. because he was not in britain at that time. and i found no speech on feb2 1835 in british parliament records.

    • Pothy says:

      The actual text according to Wikipaedia is thus : It is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern; a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population.[8]

  14. gajanan says:

    http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/

    In this web site there is a huge document called Beautiful Tree – The Indigenous Education system of India in 18th century. Please download this and read. It is great work, by a great person , Dharampal. it is unfortunate that men like Dharampalji are ignored.

  15. gajanan says:

    Please go to published works on your left side and click , you will get this book on the web site posted in the previous post.

  16. Pingback: Culture-some questions

  17. javed hossain says:

    i had a question posted on facebook ‘hw it wud’ve been if India,Pakistan and Bangladesh wer not separated’ i got various kinds of answers, mostly saying we wud stil be fighting for religion,language,culture,etc…i replied dem by saying it cud hav been just da opposite tht is we cud hav been da superpower or/and the economic showbreaker of da world..all these kinds of fights for race,culture,language,religion startd after da british invasion(divide and rule policy).before tht we all lived in peace nd harmony…

    after replying to da comments, i thought it’s a good idea to do sum research in this subject to get ready 4 further comments..that is how i end up HERE reading this great article..this kind of research really needs mass attention..especially wen history has been and is being manipulated according to THEIR interests…thank u so much 4 further enlightening me regarding this very important history of us…

    • Sami says:

      Javid you hit the nail on the head; through division they were able to conquer India. As human we tend to look for the differences instead of similarities and the barbarians took advantage.

      • senthil says:

        Hindus delude themsevles with such illusionary arguments.. Are the Europeans United when they colonised india? Arent the french and britishers fighting with each other ? The britishers did not conquer through force.. they were just providing mercenary services, providing armies on pay to different indian kings.. at one point of time, they just consolidated their forces and captures territories one by one.. When indian kings realised, it was too late.. this is nothing to do with unity here.. bcoz, the britishers and other european powers came only as trading entities, and traders are always welcomed in all parts of india..

  18. RVR says:

    Dear Mr.Senthil Raja,

    I am the one who is responsible for giving a link to your blog in tamilbrahmins.com.

    I have made a posting in tamilbrahmins.com tendering my apologies to you for linking your blog in the forum. I have also informed in the same posting that I am withdrawing from the participations in the forum till justice is done to you and Late Sri Dharmapal.

    Please send an email to me in the above so that we can get in touch with each other.

    I am a Gandhian and is involved in rural development projects during my spare time. I want to learn a lot from you on the British rule and the damages done to our country during their rule.

    Thanks, regards and best wishes,

    RVR

    • senthil says:

      Sir.. there is nothing to apologise here.. i am glad that you found my blog to be referred in tamil brahmins forum..

      As i said that forum, ridiculing is part of a heated debate.. we need not be too much apologetic about this..

      Looking forward to you again participating in that discussion..

  19. Pingback: The Britis are to blame

  20. RVR says:

    Mr Senthil,

    I visited Gandhigram Rural University yesterday and had good discussions on helping our rural poor to regain their pride. The university and the trust are doing wonderful job in training and empowering rural people particularly poor and downtrodden . They are working for creating self sustaining rural clusters. They are not averse to modern technology but are interested in using it appropriately for rural development.

    The institute is concerned about environment protection very much and ensures whatever technology adopted is not spoiling the environment. We discussed some green technologies appropriate to the rural development involving renewable energies, transportation etc.

    Please visit the following websites

    http://www.gandhigram.org/index.htm

    http://www.ruraluniv.ac.in/

    The above institutions were established by Dr T S Soundaram Ramachandran D/O renowned industrialist Late T V Sundaram Iyengar along with her husband Late Dr G Ramachandran.

    Dr Soundaram Ramachandran was a medical practitioner and she devoted her entire life for rural development.

    We should bring back our past glory which existed before British period. Every village cluster was self sufficient with full of peace and harmony prior to British invasion. I am getting lot of information from this site about Late Mr.Dharampal’s work and also your research there on.

    Please continue to enlighten with more relevant information to create a new India which is free from the onslaught of new Multi national companies whom I earnestly feel are successors to East India Company.

    Best Wishes,

    RVR

  21. vedamgopal says:

    According to me when one is born he is identified as male or female and all other identifications are society enforced like nationality, religion and cast group. When one has the right to change his nationality if he settle in other country, when one has the right to change his religion as per his choice, WHY NOT ALLOW CHANGE OF CAST GROUP?

    Nationality is a general identification based on the birth place. Even for changing the nationality in a foreign land one has to full fill so many conditions and also to wait for long time to get the changed citizenship. It is not something like dipping you in bath tub, putting a cross dollar in the neck and saying from to-day you are a Christian. The majority becomes minority and he is eligible for all the minority benefits. Is it logic? Cast & religion are based on who gave birth to you and it is permanent and can not be changed. If change of religion is justifiable by law then change of cast group is also justifiable. I am willing change my cast group and want to announce that I am converted to dalit community and except the government to provide all the reservation benefit. Is it OK ????????????

    • senthil says:

      Sir.. but who is actually preventing one from changing his caste? Its the government..

      Before britishers, there is no centralised enumeration and classification of castes.. so a person’s jaati is known only to the locality he lives.. if he moves away to a different raajyam or some far away places, he is a new man and can start his life with a new identity..

      Secondly, in our traditional jaati system, when a group of people violates the jaati rules, they are outcasted and they become a new jaathi..

      But today, these are not possible.. who is responsible? Its the britishers, who first officially documented and froze the dynamic jaathi in to a racial caste system..
      And today’s government blindly follows the british government model..

      So if at all if any one has to be accused for stagnation of caste, its none other than the government .

      • Sami says:

        The caste system is not bad in theory. In practice, however, it is a different story. If one goes by the Gita it tell you that a person’s caste is determined by his/her nature (and not by birthright.) In olden days families had members of different caste all living in the same home. However, eager to retain power the Brahmins began propagating this birthright but we need to analyze why they wanted power- was it for respect, was it as a result of British pressure and look at the result today?

        What really galls me is the disrespect so-called ‘higher castes’ have for ‘lower castes.’ We are all human beings; we come from the same source. I was appalled by how our Indian brothers and sisters are treated by our own. If one looks at it the only true Hindus are the Shudras because they are from the serving caste and seva is one of our most fundamental tenets.

        The caste system is fundamental to our communal system but our treatment of others is not. I could not bear to see human beings who think that they are less than others because they have been forced to do so; it’s our shame not our dharma.

      • senthil says:

        @sami,

        read my latest post on “Birth based hysteria”.. that answers your questions..

  22. ruralbharath says:

    Each State in India has its own caste classifications. Probably except Brahmins and Daliths, all other castes lose their identity if they migrate from one state to another.

    I have a friend who belongs to `Ezhava’ caste of Kerala migrated to Tamilnadu. They are declared as a backward caste in Kerala. But in Tamilnadu he is treated as a forward community.

    Even today, if a backward community member migrates from one state to another, he loses his backward class status

  23. vedamgopal says:

    Varna system is a universal phenomenon and existed throughout the world. Swami Vivekananda also confirms this in his writings about the world historic events. Only in India we have given a specific name for the Varnas & framed certain set of rules. (Spiritual advisors or Gurus, warrior class or ruling class, business class and working class) But this system is vanished everywhere including in India to-day. Now every body belongs to working class only.

    Like Varna system cast system is also existing everywhere throughout the world. But except in India other countries restricted this within that group and kept this classification away from society and Government. Cast classification are self made by a group of people based on the place where they lived, work they do, religious customs and tradition they followed, mannerisms they practice within their family groups, annual prayer to their hereditary deity etc., They meet during the religious functions and family functions and exchange their well being. Identification of suitable boys and girls within their group for marriages. The group village chief will give rulings for any dispute. For severe crime the person is debarred from the community. It is a greatest shame in those days and they loose respect in society. It is self sufficient and self controlled system as long as it is separated from society and Government. Hindu society has got a common worship place and burial ground. Where as in the cast less Abrahamic cult they have separate worship places and burial grounds for different groups.

    Varna system collapsed in India during Muslim invasion and there were only a few cast groups till the arrival of British rulers. Due to divide and rule policy of British this cast system given entry into the society and Government. A well planned and planted discriminative attitude sowed by them grown up to-day beyond controllable limit due wrong reservation policies and the full benefactor is politicians even to-day.

    Whatever cast discrimination or atrocities committed on dalit in India is very negligible and much harmless. Only the politicians and media are exaggerating for publicity and political gain. When compared to the atrocities committed by the Abrahamic cult throughout the world in the name of religion, racism, slavery, witch haunt, jihad, inquisitions, colonization etc., shows voluminous historic record killing crores and crores of people, destroying their customs and culture. Their venomous mind set to exploit the world is not changed till to-day. Both are applying different types of strategies every where through back door and creating unrest for mankind. Hence cast discrimination in India is a negligible factor to be ignored. This will vanish once the reservation quota system is removed. Introduction of creamy layer system definitely helps to eradicate the so called cast discrimination if at all any thing is existing. Politicians are finding difficulties to get political gains through cast divisions. Hence started appeasing minorities

    In fact the biggest unfortunate crime in India is minoritisms. Every politician is exploiting in the disguise of minortism and cheating the majority in-turn looting the countries wealth, creating unrest everywhere. This is worst than the cast discrimination and the minority identification to be abolished immediately.

    • Sami says:

      “Whatever cast discrimination or atrocities committed on dalit in India is very negligible and much harmless.”

      Oh my! I’m sure the dalits who are ridiculed and live on the fringes would disagree. Denial won’t give us progress.

      Let’s forget about the Abrahamic religions and look forward to freeing our own people.

  24. Sujeev Kommana says:

    All the great things attributed to pre-British Indian society was made possble by an abundance of food grain production, year after year, decade after decade, century after century, by Indian farming castes. In a survey conducted in the 1760s in the area around Chennai, it is estimated that the average availability of food grains per year per person was 1,000kgs. Today that number is around 175 kgs, I think. We cannot compare the India of old to the India of today until we get that 175 kg number back to around 1,000. The Hindu newspaper published a series of articles in the early 90s inspired by Dharampal’s research which show how our perception of our past is all wrong.

    http://www.cpsindia.org/art_hindu.html

    Read and enjoy.

    Sujeev Kommana

    • senthil says:

      thanks for the link sujeev.. what you said is very apt.. we had a whole farming community, which produced food grains round the clock, and it is because of this, that 1000kgs per person was possible..

      • Sami says:

        Now those who have ‘accepted’ their lot in life have nothing to look forward to so why produce? Here is where pride in work must be reinstated. For this to happen respect and dignity for all needs to return.

      • senthil says:

        Every jathi was proud of their work, because it gives them survival, and independance.. It is the urban people who oppressed and made all native traditions inferior.. Before britishers, it is one’s life style which was base for one’s prestige.. after britishers, power and authority become the norm for prestige and dignity..

        Earlier, when one performs his occupation well, he feels dignified.. after british, those who got government jobs were treated as respected and dignified and those who were in traditional profession were treated as country froods..

    • Surya says:

      In 1760, The population of India is 20 crore, now its 120 crore. The agricultural output has not increased going by your data, but I believe that the farm land area has decreased. I also believe that dependence on cattle for food has increased. This reduces the efficiency of the system.

  25. Rajeev Ranjan says:

    Before British invasion the literacy rate of India was 97%.

  26. Marra says:

    hi :) i’m from Serbia and i currently write a paper about India, its culture, customs, people, polity, but BEFORE British invasion. would you please share some links with me? thank you very much :)

  27. senthil says:

    @suresh,

    Thanks for the links.

    • Swami says:

      senthil,

      can you please comment your views on the sati system that was followed ? why did women had to get into this act when her husband is dead? was it forced ? was it volunteery? did this become rigid later? we read in history that rajaramohan roy and other bengal social reformers did a lot in removing such things and child marriages. i recently read a view against guru ragavendrar where a guy has posted in the utube view of ragavendra movie when ragavendra’s wife commits suicide after he gets initiated as a sanyasi.. the person has passed comment on indian cultural exploitation on women. i understand lots of other aspects of women role. but this sati system is something which i am unable to find any detail on. thought i and lot of others dont have the mind set to accept it in current times, i was just wondering what could have been the reason why that was prevalant in the society. can you throw some light on the sati system?

      • senthil says:

        @swami,

        Today, in indian films when the lover commits suicide upon her partner’s death, it becomes box office hit.. why sati alone is condemned? agmark hypocrisy..

        Please read the below archival compilation of Dharampal’s work..

        http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/frames/downloads/vol1.PDF

        And in the above file, go to page 7.. you will find a first hand european narration of a sati, committed by a woman.. tell me where she was forced..

        Rajaram mohan roy, and other social reformers were actually british stooges.. there is one general rule.. whoever is praised in our history books (used in schools) are all british stooges.. because they collided and cajoled with britishers, they got prominence, and they were used as a tool to weaken indian value system..

        Sati Devi will take care of all those who say “Sati” is evil..

        Tell me What is wrong with Child marriage?

      • Swami says:

        child marriage is not bad. i can see the significance of that. sathguru has spoken a bit on that. child marriage makes sense. For sati i didnt get any convincing answer till now. your reply espeacially below is a good start. i will read dharampals document.

        /*Today, in indian films when the lover commits suicide upon her partner’s death, it becomes box office hit.. why sati alone is condemned? agmark hypocrisy..*/

        excellent one..

      • senthil says:

        @swamy,

        You can download all works of dharampal from the following samanvaya site.

        http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/frames/downloads/

        1st.zip, 2Civil Disobedience.zip, 3.beautifultree.zip, panchayatraj.zip, and 5essays.zip are the 6 volumes of his published book..
        the 1st.zip contains both volume 1 and 2 in same book, and mainly deals with science and technology in inia..

        civil disobedience.zip covers about the inherent nature of civil disobedience existing in india for thousands of years, and gandhi’s one was NOT new.

        beautiful tree.zip is the one that describes in detail about the state of education system in india..

        The other files, in pdf format are minor works, copied by dharampal, by handwritten.. they have more interesting information, although the book is small.

      • Swami says:

        thanks a lot for the links senthil. i will definitely go through those. i am in middle of breaking india book. once i am done with that i will start with dharampals. its pending from my end for some time and am really looking forward in reading his books. sounds intresting…

        i read the pages of the PDF on sati system. like you said, this particular sati scenario was a volunteery one. which is OK. my other findings were there were other wives of the same dead guy who prefered not to die and no one complelled them to die. which is also good.

        the only thing that bothered me was the justification given to forceful sati. i.e when a young girls husband dies, they forcefuly make her do sati just to avoid others marrying her. why is that???? if one man can marry multiple women, why not the other way? may be women themselves didnt want to get married with multiple men. then its fine. but this need not be the reason for forcing sati. may be she can live independently. i dont know… but somehow i am finding it difficult to accept that. may be the westerner who witnessed this event is also having the same mindset (which he has infused into current indians) and thats why he calls this barbaric..

        still. some part of me says we could have avoided this system in the society. even spiritually, one is not suppose to end their lives by commiting suicide. india bring a rich country with high spirituality found everywhere, why didnt people see death as part of life and just continue to live without the husband. probably such widows can pursue spirituality and become ascetic instead of sati.

      • senthil says:

        @swamy,

        Also read page 21 of the same link i have given.. this is another case in bengal, from another european travellers account.. and it was much later at Nov-1753..

        While i have my own view of the questions you raised, i want you to put your own analysis further, instead of getting locked in to morality dilemma.. just analyse them from the perspective of the societies that existed at that time..

        Once i hear from you further, i will give my views on it..

      • Sami says:

        I can’t agree with senthil on sati. What if it were men who were asked to burn themselves? Sat Devi was a goddess; we are mere humans. Stories are not told for us to emulate them but for moral grounding.

      • Sami says:

        Addition, movies are fake. The herione commits suicide on screen gets up and go home. Sati is permanent. A life which God has given us is taken-suicide or homicide.
        With suicide the heroine chooses to commit suicide (a sin regardless) but with sati is the woman given a choice?

      • senthil says:

        @sami,

        /** A life which God has given us is taken-suicide or homicide. **/

        This is a christian statement and NOT a hindu one.. in hindu philosophy, a life is decided based on one’s past karma and NOT exclusively given by god.. so understand that in many ways our thought process are christianised, which is a major problem for us in understanding our cultures..

        /** With suicide the heroine chooses to commit suicide (a sin regardless) but with sati is the woman given a choice?
        **/
        Sati is a choice excercised by the woman, and you can read from dharampal books (www.samanvaya.com/dharampal )

      • senthil says:

        /** I can’t agree with senthil on sati. What if it were men who were asked to burn themselves?
        **/

        Sati is done by males too.. i have historical records of those, where a priest and a servant took up sati after their king died..
        sati is NOT burning people.. pls come out of the western isolated, compartmentalised mindset..

  28. Siddhartha says:

    Hi, with great regard I can only say that wisdom can not be covered by any means, be it British or our own people. I am optimist and will see that the day is not far away, dark is fading and light is making its way to this part of humanity.

  29. Saajan says:

    Hi friends great job here!!! I thout i was alone, u prove me wrong :)

    i’ll soon start a blog and share my findings :)

  30. Mansi says:

    Hi,
    I was just wondering..is there anything that Dharampal said about the state of women before the british invasion. Was the whole pardah system a western concept that came in with full body covering gowns and hats by British women? because as far as Indian Costumes go..they have had bold attires like backless cholis and sarees..so was the whole ‘women must stay in a dupatta’ a british influence?

  31. Sujeev says:

    Off the top of my head, I am not able to recollect a Dharampal essay relating particularly to the state of Indian women before the British invasion, but I can point you to two resources that might answer your question – one is Amar Chitra Katha http://www.amarchitrakatha.com/ . The Indian women in those stories always seem to dress daringly. The second is a book by Veena Talwar Oldenburg http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/wsas/academics/history/voldenburg.htm , “Dowry murder:The Imperial origins of a cultural crime” http://www.amazon.ca/Dowry-Murder-Imperial-Origins-Cultural/dp/0195150724 , which shows clearly how the British distorted an Indian practice relating to women. The introduction to the book on Amazon is this :

    “The Hindu custom of dowry has long been blamed for the murder of wives and female infants in India. In this highly provocative book, Veena Oldenburg argues that these killings are neither about dowry nor reflective of an Indian culture or caste system that encourages violence against women. Rather, such killings can be traced directly to the influences of the British colonial era. In the precolonial period, dowry was an institution managed by women, for women, to enable them to establish their status and have recourse in an emergency. As a consequence of the massive economic and societal upheaval brought on by British rule, women’s entitlements to the precious resources obtained from land were erased and their control of the system diminished, ultimately resulting in a devaluing of their very lives. Taking us on a journey into the colonial Punjab, Veena Oldenburg skillfully follows the paper trail left by British bureaucrats to indict them for interpreting these crimes against women as the inherent defects of Hindu caste culture. The British, Oldenburg claims, publicized their “civilizing mission” and blamed the caste system in order to cover up the devastation their own agrarian policies had wrought on the Indian countryside. A forceful demystification of contemporary bride burning concludes this remarkably original book. Deploying her own experiences and memories and her research at a women’s shelter with “dowry cases” for almost a year in the mid-eighties, the authorlooks at the contemporary violence against wives and daughters-in-law in modern India. Oldenburg seamlessly weaves the contemporary with the historical, the personal with the political, and strips the layers of exoticism off an ancient practice to show how an invaluable safety net was twisted into a deadly noose. She brings us startlingly close to the worsening treatment of modern Indian women as she challenges us to rethink basic assumptions about women’s human and economic rights. Combining rigorous research with impassioned analysis and a nuanced treatment of a complex, deeply controversial subject, this book critiques colonialism while holding a mirror to gender discrimination in modern India. “

  32. there there says:

    There was no India before the British came here,there would have been no India as we know it if they would not have come here.We were just a bunch of independent princely states.

    • vyas says:

      What you said is right politically, but not culturally. I agree that we were divided as many as 56 independent political entities, but were one nation culturally. This is why our ancient scripts call this nation as bharath varsh.

    • senthil says:

      You are right.. the india we see now is a totalatarian, colonial entity, where everyone are slaves to a corporate government monster..

      Before britishers, the india was still a politically united entity, but NOT in the present sense.. local autonomy was there.. all villages had local-governance, and local autonomy.. so the kings at top, just integrated all these self-sustainable entities..

      What present india does is to build western system on the corpse of these pre-british native system.. ie, by destroying villages and everything native..

  33. Mitesh Vora says:

    Hi Sir,it gives me great pleasure to read this article looking for more of this time to spread the word.

  34. Pingback: Dubashi Brahmins and Vaidiha Brahmins | Senthilraja’s blog

  35. Surya Ramachandran says:

    Senthil I have found the following from Dharampals works – volume 1. This clearly says that Dowry did not exist in India before the British arrived. Please add this also to the article if possible.

    ” As I observed before, their marriages are all conducted by the parents during the parties
    infancy, the expence of this ceremoney, which is considerable according to the ranks of the
    persons married, is always from the bridegroom’s family, nor is it customary to give any
    fortunes with their daughters, because it should not be said they were obliged to buy them
    husbands, for this custom it seems they despise the Europeans very much. “

  36. vaikom madhu says:

    Very intelligent discussion. Should go on so that misunderstanding could be cleared and our past would be known to all unraveling more historical facts.
    Thanks Senthil

  37. vaikom madhu says:

    Dear Senthil
    I would like to know more about the GDP, Industry, agriculture, social life, foreign trade, shipping etc before the arrivial oc colonial forces. Please.

    Vaikom Madhu

    • senthil says:

      there is no concept of GDP before colonisation.. world was localised, and self-sustained and there was not much exploitation in the pre-colonial days.. economy was fair, with gold & silver as money & currency until british forced worthless paper currency on us and manipulated the economy..

      i would suggest you to trace your own family lineage and found out the dhesam / empire your forefathers were part of.. that would be a good start for your research

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